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Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

  • 1.  Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2026 16:19

    Greetings,

    I have heard it said by several credible sources that the stronger the repetition spring is ("butterfly" style), the quicker the key return will be. This notion has been used to support increasing the center pin friction of hammer and repetition lever centers that are too loose (more friction to work against = greater spring tension required to overcome said friction). I have subscribed to this notion myself, but not until now has anyone challenged it.

    Gonna do my best "Ron Nossaman" impression here: Has anyone either conducted an experiment or heard of one to "either confirm or dis-confirm" this notion?

    And on a related note, if the front of the key lifts more weight, does that necessarily mean that it comes up faster?

    Thanks,

    Alan



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2026 22:00

    I don't have an answer, but I've heard that the spring in reality moves the key back down as its primary function, not actually forcing the jack back under the knuckle as the primary function. If this is the case, it seems that the stronger the spring the greater repetition since the spring is moving the back of the key which has considerably more mass than a jack.  This could be another practical aspect of having less weight in a key. (If my understanding is incorrect, please let me know.) I hadn't considered the friction of the repetition center in this way, that's an interesting tidbit I'll have to chew on. There does seem to be some range in setting spring tension, and I'd love to be more knowledgeable in finding a sweet spot.

    Hopefully those more knowledgeable than me will enlighten us.



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    Tim Foster RPT
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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  • 3.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2026 07:56

    I believe the essence of the idea is true. Then though, the "law of unintended consequences" raises it's ugly head when the spring is so strong that playing at low or medium levels becomes problematic as the hammers are continuously bouncing against the strings (no fun). Therefore a "sweet spot" must be found on each instrument where everything works reasonably well (a.k.a., "as strong as possible without causing problems").  This is generally what I like to try to accomplish. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 4.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Posted 08-10-2026 08:52

    To push the key down the spring must overcome the inertia of the key.

    This would be the place where location of the key leads could make a difference.

    For static balance more leads close to the balance pin = fewer leads at the key front,

    but the moment of inertia will be less with the leads near the balance pin,

    so the jack can get under the knuckle sooner.



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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 5.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2026 11:12

    We recently unboxed a new Estonia and it played ok out of the packaging. Regulation was actually decent but just couldn't get much control out of it. When we checked the action parts the pinning on both the hammer flange and rep lever was less than 1 gram. Once we corrected that (2-4 g for the hammer and 5-8 in the rep) we could dramatically increase the rep spring strength and after a full regulation it was an entirely different instrument. 

    So yes, if the rep lever pinning is too loose then your rep spring has to be light as to not feel the kickback in the key. By correcting the friction you can then increase the spring to how it was intended and both your jack and key return quicker.  The butterfly spring is constantly trying to open and when it compresses as the drop screw make contact it pushes on the capstan thus making the key return quicker. 

    If you make the rep spring comically too strong and increase drop by a little you can easily feel the extra resistance in the key



    ------------------------------
    Morgan T. Cowell, RPT
    Great Plains Piano Company
    www.greatplainspiano.com
    Regional Vice President
    2023 PTG Institute Director
    402-239-7876
    morgan@greatplainspiano.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2026 12:25

    Alan –

    You made a few fateful decisions in posing your thought-question about lever and hammer-pinning friction, (and the requisite adjustment of spring strength) as they impact key return and, ultimately repetition speed.
    The first of these 'decisions' was to spell 'meaurably' incorrectly.
    Next was to invoke the spirt of Nossaman – always treacherous.
    The third, and potentially most significant was to simultaneously to multiple (PTG & CAUT) lists.  While the impulse is understandable – seek wider input – the environment within which we (still) operate is inadequate to the task of coordinating multiple inputs that a) are exclusive of one another, and b) individually resist retaining the thread of your question, which was:

     "Has anyone either conducted an experiment or heard of one to "either confirm or dis-confirm" this notion?

    You further (potentially) sabotaged your project by trying for a 'two-fer' -
    "AND ON A RELATED NOTE, if the front of the key lifts more weight, does that necessarily mean that it comes up faster?"

    So, in my own spirit of Nossaman, (10 years as of this December), whose ire I tweaked more than once, I'm posting these observations to both CAUT and Pianotech.  I appreciated the thinking displayed in both threads, but, as yet, only Fred Sturm on CAUT provided the direct track to Scott Murphy's experiments (along with Jason Cassel, Rick Baldassin and himself) They would probably know of other such attempts.

    The challenge with this question lies in how to weave a unified discussion from multiple thread sources, each of which needs to be constructively rigorous in its process/methodology.

    Fred states clearly where the uncertainty in their inquiry remains.  Someone could clearly refine this work further, but the challenge, as others have indicated, is a) the variables, and b) we're talking about pianos.

    The competition for the most definitive answers is now between this (larger) community and CLAUDE.

    Beyond all that, thanks for the risky question, Alan E.



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 7.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2026 17:34

    David, 

    Even though you were a bit "late to the party," you arrived with gifts that were rich, as always.

    I apologize for my spelling error but I assure you that I did not make a decision to spell that word incorrectly.

    Where channeling the late, great Mr. Nossaman is concerned, I think you have got me beat by virtue of the tone of your response. Definitely reminds me of him. (I referenced Ron with regard to the endless speculation that some people indulge in, rather than conducting a test or referencing same.) 

    I will not address some of your other criticisms because, well, life is just too short!

    You closed by thanking me for asking a risky question. And indeed, it would appear that I am less risk-averse than many others are. Take it or leave it, that's who I am.

    Cordially,

    Alan

    P. S. Like my OP, your post was also not without error. Would you like me to point it out publicly? Or privately? Or just accept that I think I knew what you meant and let it be?



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2026 12:39

    Hi Morgan -

    Responding to your post above (as I didn't see it before posting the below), your experience is interesting as well as frustrating:

    • did you confer with Estonia before undertaking the repining of the entire action?
    • what did they offer as their target specs, and if other than what you found, what's the reason for the difference?
    • is your experience consistent with other dealers/techs?
    • did you measure/document  the change by first addressing the hammerflange pinning?  
    • were you able to effect the change by increasing 1/2 size? 
    • can you track this work to see if it remains stable?


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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 9.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2026 14:13

    Hi Alan,

    This is a good question and I believe it deserves a closer look especially as I've noticed the PTG collective wisdom about this topic often seems at odds with most manufacturer's specs.

    A good portion of my response below comes from a similar thread started by Robin Whitehouse a few months ago. For anyone designing an experiment to test this, the takeaways are as follows:

    • The piano technician industry recommendation regarding a tighter balancier pinning is a relatively recent phenomenon in the scope of piano manufacturing, and that recommendation goes hand in hand with the recommendation to avoid feeling a bump in the key when setting springs.  Both recommendations need to be understood as related when designing an experiment.
    • With low friction in the balancier, the spring should be set so the hammer rises as fast as possible without bouncing after it reaches the apex.  You will feel a bump.
    • Steinway's spec for all action centers is 2g (+/-1g).
    • Uncontaminated action centers in stable environments will tend to reach an equilibrium through wear at around 2g (+/-1g). (Stability should be considered and included in the experimentation)
    • Repetition doesn't just rely on how quickly the key resets, but also how early in the reset that note can play again.  This parameter has more to do with aftertouch than repetition spring strength.

    Since low friction has historically been the spec for all Steinway action centers, I know for certain that an action can function very well with 2g or less in the balancier, and might even be preferable for many reasons, but it requires treating the springs slightly differently than what you might be used to. (If you try to eliminate the feeling of a "bump" in the key when checking spring tension, you will need to adjust your spring setting technique.)

    A question is "If the main function of the balancier (established by Scott Murphy's excellent high speed video series) is to press against the knuckle to reset the key, would adding friction to resist this function be advantageous?"  The increased spring strength is nullified by the increased friction as it relates to the main function of the balancier.

    The rationale has been given that due to the compound nature of the spring, firmer balancier pinning allows the fly to reset faster. After watching the video again carefully, it's not clear this is ever much of a concern as the balancier is already meeting much more resistance than the fly as it works against the knuckle to reset the key. With the fly and balancier pinned equally, the fly would still encounter much less resistance than the balancier by the natural function of the mechanism as a whole.

    Another rationale given is that the balancier spring must be strong enough to lift the hammer but without propelling it to the strings. In the video, we don't see the balancier lifting the hammer at all when the key is released.  This "lifting" only occurs when the backcheck is disengaged and the key is prevented from returning either intentionally by a technician (to judge the speed by which the key will reset using the hammer as a proxy, I.E. setting springs) or incidentally in the course of playing.  The spring and balancier are instead working together to reset the key as fast as possible.  Increasing friction works against the spring which must increase tension to match.  As both increase, the net spring strength after friction is limited by the same concern about the hammer bobbling on the string.  Measuring the net spring strength after friction in both firm and free conditions that are both well regulated would be interesting.

    The most convincing rationale for tight pinning is that the balancier pinning acts as a shock absorber against the feel of the spring.  By pinning the balancier with more friction, you are able to set the springs so you don't feel a bump in the key when measuring spring strength.

    Is this feeling actually necessary to insulate against? is there a cost or trade-off associated with a firm balancier pinning?  I believe the longevity of the pinning and the stability of the regulation is the main trade-off.  The gain is likely a matter of personal preference. 

    If your balancier pinning is 2g (+/-1g) and you chase away the tactile sensation felt in the key, this will almost certainly cause you to set your springs too weak which can lead to all sorts of inconsistencies. What should be attempted instead is to set the spring so the hammer rises 1. as fast as possible 2. without bouncing after the apex.  These two parameters set a very narrow but accurate band that causes the technician to naturally taper the "speed" of the springs from slower in the bass to faster in the treble. When set correctly, you will certainly feel a slight feeling of the hammer bump in your finger. With enough practice you can feel and distinguish the hammer bump from the undesirable hammer bounce, which also has a simultaneous visual component.

    Here are some potential benefits to working with low friction action centers as they are.

    • It is more stable, and your springs will continue to behave predictably.
    • It saves time that might be more efficiently spent improving something else
    • at least with Steinway action parts, it preserves the original burnished edge center pin with the notched middle which has many mechanical advantages over a traditional clipped pin. 
    • It might be in line with the manufacturers design intention which is of note when dealing with pianos under warranty.


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    Daniel DeBiasio
    Technical Education & Support
    ddebiasio@steinway.com
    718-267-3229
    Steinway & Sons
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2026 22:52

    Greetings,

          I am in the higher friction camp.  I have found my best action response with 8 grams of friction shared between the hammer flange and the repetition lever.  Optimum for me is 3 grams in the hammer and 5 in the repetition lever. Whether it is cost effective to aim for these tolerances in a wooden part I do not know, as it is generally agreed that they are not dimensionally stable. However, the composite bushings are stable enough to justify the time to get these two variables consistent, so some effort spent in seeking an optimum friction is warranted .  

       The repetition speed is governed by how fast it takes to have the jack reset. this depends on  two things, the speed of the key's return and the distance it must travel to allow the jack under the knuckle.  Jack speed is not a factor, as it moves quicker than the other components.       I cannot see a noticeable difference in key return speed between a spring set to just being able to feel it and one that throws the hammer off the jack upon release from check.  They both seem to return the key about the same when two adjacent naturals are simultaneously released from check with their springs set differently. The physicists can plot how much more strength is need to increase the acceleration of mass, (key) for us to clinically find the point of diminishing returns, but empirically, I find the spring needed to operate with 8 grams of friction in the centers produces as fast a repetition as possible with the most controllable, consistent, spring strength, (a consistency I find necessary for even escapement feel at ppp playing).  The consistency of the pinning controls the consistency of the spring.  The spring, and how it is encountered,  basically defines the feel of escapement, so  I think its consistency is important. My pinning is more consistent at the higher figures and the actions seem to be more consistent on the softer play with the given friction in the repetition lever.  

       I have seen actions handle fairly fast repetition with excessive friction.  They were a lot of work to play, but even though there was enough verdigris in the hammer flanges to prevent the springs from lifting  the hammers, there was enough strength in the springs to move the key back fast enough to have normal repetition.  When I squirted some lube on the flanges, I found out that there was a LOT of spring hiding behind the green veil. A heavy, fast, action that was impossible to control on soft play. Situation demanded the band-aid, so I squirted it down and had to really soften the springs. 

       It would be really instructive if those inclined to testing could plot the change of key return speed as a function of changing spring strength? Specifically, is there anything to be gained after a certain point?    I suppose it would take a mini radar gun.???  

    regards, 

     



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    Ed Foote RPT
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  • 11.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2026 01:22

    I haven't quantified it exactly but count me in the higher friction on the balancier camp. I routinely repin there one size. Jack return speed will improve, though I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns. 

    Re Daniel DeBiasio's comment on all Steinway flanges set at 2g +/- 1g. That would not be my standard. Wippen flange friction should be low in that range, certainly. I see no benefit in anything higher there. I'm currently repining a set of wippen  flanges in which friction readings are as high as 8-10 grams and uneven!. I won't say whose. Hammer flanges I test by the number of swings which I like to be -6-7. That means friction levels will be higher in the bass and lower in the treble and graduate through the set. I accept that manufacturers can't hit targets that precisely and I'm willing to repin as needed.  



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 12.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2026 08:44

    It seems to me that (as with nearly all the "standard" regulation specs), manufacturers shoot for a built in safety factor that typically ensures reliable performance...but not necessarily peak performance (on the edge of possible failure or warranty issues). 

    OTOH, it could be instructive to examine some of their concert-prepared instruments...those specifically prepared for peak performance rather than residential use. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2026 13:51

    Concert instruments in Steinway's C&A fleet are prepared with low friction in all action centers.

    Historically this was defined "as free as possible without sideplay" and is now defined as 2g (+/-1g)



    ------------------------------
    Daniel DeBiasio
    Technical Education & Support
    ddebiasio@steinway.com
    718-267-3229
    Steinway & Sons
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2026 03:47

    I am in the same camp as Ed and David, favoring 4 -5 grams at the balancier post and 3 - 4 grams at the shank.  I too have used the WNG parts for a very long time, and the friction can be controlled to a fine degree and be very stable once done.  I may have missed it elsewhere, but I find it a virtue to have a strong spring that does not give a kick that pianists can feel when the hammer snaps up; instead you get a steady rise.  And you do not run the risk of the hammer blubbering against the string when you have a close let-off during soft play.



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    William Truitt RPT
    Bridgewater NH
    (603) 744-2277
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  • 15.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2026 10:11

    Just to clarify, 3-4 grams of friction in the hammer would not necessarily be my target. Actually I don't measure friction there with a gauge, I do it by the number of swings and aim for about 6. So the bass flanges will have more friction than the treble. I'm not sure what that is exactly as I don't actually measure it but I'm prompted to check with this action I have coming into the shop. 



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 16.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2026 15:05

    One sample: SW 11 grams; friction 2.5 grams; 7 swings - shank Abel



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 17.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2026 15:32

    👍



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Does a stronger repetition spring make the key return meaurably faster?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2026 21:40

    I apologize, I misread the premise. I don't think a stronger rep spring makes key return faster, though it will provide marginal benefits for repetition.  Key return is governed mostly by inertia in the key stick which is driven by the key itself (not really alterable) and the placement of lead. Lead closer to the balance rail will increase key return speed as will greater upweight. 

    The question I was responding to was whether it benefits repetition and I think it does. Repining the balancier with higher friction (to a point) increase jack return speed. How significant is the improvement? Good question. There are several things that will improve repetition and there is some overlap: higher UW, leads closer to the balance rail, minimal friction in the key bushings help both. Repetition benefits also from higher checking, minimal space between the shank and the rest cushion, low friction in the jack center, higher tension in the rep spring, shallower dip, minimal after touch, to name a few. 

    The contribution of any one of those in isolation is hard to parse and but each will play some role in optimal performance. 



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------