Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

  • 1.  J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-24-2022 11:51
    To start I had no idea how pianos work until I got this piano. but I am not afraid to teach myself new things.

    Had the chance to get this square grand piano, My wife fell in love with it, most of the keys did not work but I said how hard can it be ... *que laughing* If anyone has any information on this particular brand that would be swell, so far my research has taken me to that they were a piano retailer and maybe had someone else make these for them. They won some awards at the 21st Ohio state fair best square piano silver medal. found in the 26th annual report of the Ohio state board of agriculture. 

    So far I have replaced the back rail felt, balance rail felt, front key felt, hammer rail felt, replaced all the thread on the jacks, replaced all the dampers, (not period accurate dampers as i have learned after reading many threads on here), I fixed one damper arm on the piano.

    what I still need to do is replace the 2 last missing treble hammer assemblies, eventually replace all hammers and all strings. For right now I am just trying to get this to play well enough for my wife to enjoy, I have done two tunings on the piano so far at A435 seems to hold tune well just still slightly flat (piano has been sitting for many many unknown years) 

    Questions I have. I have a substantial gap below the nameboard and the keys, as well as when the key is depressed the key sits 1/8 to 1/4 above the front rail cloth and the jack is just pressed up against the jack stop button. and I get roughly a little less than 3/8 key dip so far. MY guess is the back rail cloth is too thick that I got as the piano had little to no felt so I had no examples to go off of. If I add more punching's to bring the key height up I will have even less key dip. I am just unsure where to start to get this piano as good as I can knowing it will not be perfect.

    Below is a link to all photos I have taken so far and will update the album as i add more. 

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/THusKDZwQXLghkxe7

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2022 13:19
    Joshua.

    First of all, my "condolences" to you for taking on a project like this. Very few full time piano technicians even bother working on square grand pianos, much less doing any major repairs. So kudos for that. 

    Second, your wife is going to owe you "big time", for encouraging you to tackle this job in the first place. At least when you get done you know you can keep it. 

    Now, to the technical part. Again, the first thing I would do is get a solid door, 3' x 7', to put on your table so that the action will sit flat. Having the ends of the keyframe dangle over the edge of your table makes it very difficult to do any kind of regulating. When I did a job like this, even I had difficulty regulating the action on a large, and I had a big, flat work bench. 

    Now to the exact question you asked about. Key dip is the first step in regulating an action. You said there is a gap between the tops of the keys and the rail across the keys. (I saw the picture). That is the first step you should do. Key height and key dip are a balancing act. You need enough back rail felt and balance rail punching to lift the keys up high enough to get a little more than 3/8" key dip, (filling ion the rest with front rail punchings). But not high enough not to allow the rail to go across the keys. Since you didn't have a sample of the back rail cloth, you have to experiment with different thicknesses. You want to keep in mind that you also need a thin felt balance rail punching under the middle of the key. 

    Once you've got those dimensions figured out and working, then the fun starts, regulating the action. 

    Wim 






  • 3.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-24-2022 13:31
    So probably the best course of action is to remove the hammer assembly and just work on the rail felts/punchings to get the proper height and key dip then put the hammers back on then regulate the lost motion with the jack and then the jack stop. I just measured and lots like I have the hammer rail height ok all sitting about 2" below the wire. I attached nother video to the Google album for better visual of the key drop and not hitting the felt punchings.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-24-2022 14:40
    I'm rebuilding a square right now. Just finished the soundboard work, rescaled and restring. Just starting on the action.. If you want to trade labor for training, I'll show you how make these thing work.  Also go to my YouTube channel and find the square piano Playlist ,I believe there about 10 videos on squares.
    Regards.
    -chris





  • 5.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-24-2022 15:21
    Hello, thanks for the reply, I texted you a couple times on this piano :-D I've watched quite a few of your videos. What did you have in mind for trade labor vs training?

    If you see some of the videos on my google photos she is now playing but I know I can do better :-)

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2022 20:40
    Or, at the point when you're 20% into this large project, you and your wife realize 1.) there are much more practical ways of showing her your love, and 2.) even if your love was near-infinite, it still couldn't guide and sustain you through the other 80%.

    At that point:
            A square dining room table

            A rosewood headboard

    Rest in Peace (that is, when you've exhausted your efforts on this Unicorn, may your wife not be too disappointed). <G>


    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-24-2022 21:50
    I see your points and respectfully disagree :-) unicorns need love, otherwise we wouldn't have ford pinto groups, square grand groups, or salt and pepper shaker collectors groups. 

    The world needs more people to keep these unicorns alive.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-24-2022 22:02
    Most of us *can* do that work. However, it's something that takes an inordinate amount of time because parts must be made custom. Quickly turns into diminishing returns for our time. And it's not something we can adequately teach via a forum. In the end, it's basic stuff because pianos are basic stuff.

    You might search for a group that specializes in square grand pianos.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma
    New Albany MS

    "Sneak up on optimal."
    --Ron Nossaman
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2022 23:23
    The dinner table was not the only one thus "re-purposed". There's another one in the shop on which rests a 7'x3.5'slab of granite — architectural, with a polished face. (There, now I've said it.)

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-25-2022 06:20
    Hey Bill - I'm on board with you! The past few days I have been cutting and gluing up front and middle seats (with battery holder) for my fishing canoe. I've exclusively used lumber I salvaged from the keybed of an 1880s Brown & Sons square that I found hiding behind a Bechstein grand I forgot I owned when cleaning out my shop a couple years ago. I was amazed how the keybed was constructed: Three layers - top and bottom 1" thick boards and center was a 2" thick slab of softwood.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-25-2022 07:04
    I've made two work tables out of 2 square grands. A 7' Zimmermann is in my shop and the other I gave to another tech when I closed my retail space. Pianos haven't been selling like they used to, for a long time now.

    Yesterday, I passed on tuning a S&S square that is in still pretty good condition. I have tuned it many times but now do not tune squares or verticals. :-)

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 10:01

    Here's a request and a public service "heads-up":
    First, the Journal rarely has anything on square grands. Ok, yes, I hear the applause….

    For anyone out there working on one, please document as much as you can in photos and send it in to the Journal. There are square grands out there and technicians that want to know how to fix them.
    I try my best to avoid the several in my area, so far successfully….

    Here's the public service announcement: Joe Garrett, RPT (Portland Chapter), has  a large number of newly made square grand shanks he imported. If you need them, or might need them, contact him.



    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-25-2022 10:44
    Thank you, I am trying to take lots of pictures, and will start taking more and more notes the more I dive into this, Hopefully Joe will be able to chime in soon. I am looking for the last 2 treble hammer assemblies, I just got the maple to remake them but if I can get them without going that route that would be awesome.

    The other thing that is stumping me on this piano is the sostenuto pedal mechanism that goes in between the hammers and the strings, what material (it looks like original was a leather of sorts) how long, etc. the only other square I have seen in person was at the Old court house museum in my home town and it was a Steinway and in worse wares than mine and the whole mechanism was missing :-(

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2022 11:39
    Concerning the pedal, it is commonly called a moderator pedal (moderates the sound of the hammer). It should have an individual leather (sometimes cloth) tab that goes between each hammer and its strings when the pedal is depressed.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-25-2022 10:58
    Still, its a little odd that someone comes onto a piano forum to learn how to fix a piano, and he's encouraged to destroy the thing. Sure, when its no longer wanted and its better to re-purpose than going to the dump. But when somebody wants to fix and keep one he shouldn't be discouraged.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key"
    865-986-7720 (text only please)
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-25-2022 11:16
    Especially one that still plays minus a few quirks. She may not be perfect but once the bugs are ironed out she will be perfect for this piano to be the one of many my son and hopefully myself learn how to play on.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 11:54

    Chris, 
    I think you have a valid point. Let's encourage, not discourage, new technicians.

    However, new technicians, square grand owners, and those acquiring them, should just be aware of some basic aspects of the instruments in order to make a reasoned decision:
    -they are unlikely to ever recoup any costs of repair
    -they are exceeding difficult to sell, give away, move, or even transport to a dump.
    -Many technicians refuse to service them
    -they do not play or sound like modern instruments, and many do not consider them appropriate as learning instruments, especially for an advancing student.

    So I'd argue sure, go for it, but realize the limitations (and be able to explain to a customer considering the purchase of one) what those limitations are. 



    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-25-2022 12:20
    Scott C. wrote: "...they do not play or sound like modern instruments, and many do not consider them appropriate as learning instruments, especially for an advancing student."

    I do not agree with your last point referenced above. A well-playing square (one that has been properly rebuilt) is a fine piano for a beginner and even for an intermediate player. I do agree with the advancing student thing. They sound a bit different than a modern instrument, but not much different IMHO - but different isn't necessarily bad. The few nice ones I've heard were mellow and quite pleasant sounding.


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-25-2022 12:24
    Scott - I forgot to disagree with one other point you made. They are in fact NOT difficult to transport to a dump! Drop the plate on some concrete and the small pieces are easy to handle. The case cuts easily with a chain saw or even a saws-all. AMHIK!!!

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2022 12:30
    Being in my Golden Years, I stopped tuning Square Pianos at about 65 because my back bothered me for almost 2 months after. That is when I decided: No More Squares.

    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2022 12:57
    Not all rockers are the same style. Most that we find in American squares and grands have a rounded fulcrum between two screws, which means both screws must be turned when any adjustment is made. 

    This French design (from a Montal pianino) has a much more user friendly design. The front retaining screw (round head) threads into the key, and secures it. The other adjustment screw simply presses against the wood of the key, making its own dimple. The dimple is sufficient to retain the side to side position, when the adjustment screw is positively contacting it. For small adjustments, you only need to address the adjustment screw, as the elasticity of the wood of the key will keep the "rocker" secure. Occasionally you might need to tighten or loosen the retaining screw.

    Once I saw this for the first time, I wondered why anyone would use that pesky American design. This one doesn't rock. It just lifts or lowers.

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "I am only interested in music that is better than it can be played." Schnabel






  • 22.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 05-30-2022 20:43
    That one looks like it's a bit easier to adjust, Mine is the other french style. Still not terrible making adjustments. After doing some reading I do need to go in and make some more adjustments with some paper shims for left right motion to square up the jack under the hammer.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: J.F Harris and Co. Square grand. teaching myself how to be a piano tech I have so many questions.

    Posted 06-08-2022 09:41
    Got some more progress on this piano, I'm finding myself having to make decisions on best course of action and go back and forth on making it just play and doing an accurate restoration. Cleaned all the bass strings up and removed the treble strings to better clean the soundboard, and replace the pretty much non existent stringing felt and felt braid. Also taking the opportunity to use 0000 steel wool on all parts of the treble strings. I just hope none break while re-installing. (eventually one day I will get new strings and hammers) 

    https://imgur.com/a/DIwE9Sa

    Thank you!

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Sharp
    ------------------------------