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Large Casters or Spider Dollys

  • 1.  Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    In the next three years we are likely to have at least one of our Steinway Ds fully rebuilt. My quandry is whether to convert to the large brass casters that all new concert grands seem to have or to keep using spider dollys. About 10 years ago, a new student center was being built here. On my advice they had all their pianos rebuilt along with the building, including a D from the 40s. Also on my advice they had it converted to the new style casters. I learned a few years ago that in moving it around that large building they had managed to break one of the legs, or at least break it out of it's socket. So now I'm wondering if the large casters are not best for all situations.

    What's your experience? 



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    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
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  • 2.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    John,

    It was my understanding that large casters were too tall for a piano leg dimensioned for the smaller casters. If so, the keyboard and pedals would be too high.

    Roger



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    Roger Gable RPT
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    (425) 252-5000
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  • 3.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    John Pope -


    Any conversion to the larger-style casters requires the shorter (and more substantial) leg to address Roger Gable's point, however, the real answer is first, the question: why?  Visual aesthetic?  Sonic advantage?  The real answer is that they should stick with spider UNLESS they have dedicated/trained staff doing the moving, and that pianos are specifically NOT being moved "all around the building".  Even in a contained area, extreme caution needs to be taken if there are ANY floor 'transitions'.   Otherwise, look into what 'piano-transporters' are currently availble.



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 4.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago
    Those big brass casters are very slick, and make it possible to move the piano very easily. OTOH, it is so easy that if someone inexperienced is pushing it around, it would be easy to encounter a small obstacle at a speed that would break a leg. If the piano is only on stage, with a trained stage crew, there shouldn't be a problem.

    I'll note that I had a D under my care at a private school, and it was on a spider dolly. They decided to move it on its dolly to another building, and in the process of moving it back the rear arm of the dolly encountered a curb - broken leg and leg lock.  I also had a couple Bs on spiders in rehearsal rooms, and they managed to break off lyres encountering obstacles they didn't notice. 

    So a spider dolly is no guarantee of lack of damage.

    I purchased a couple of those brass casters from Steinway as replacements a couple years back, and was very impressed by the design and quality of workmanship. Far better than the ones they replaced in many ways, particularly the locking mechanism. Quite pricey. 
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "One's real life is so often the life that one does not lead" (Oscar Wilde)






  • 5.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    What about sound? Is there anything to the idea that a piano actualy sounds better with big brass casters connecting it solidly to a stage?



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    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
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  • 6.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    Also, I was thinking that the existing legs could be cut shorter to accomidate large casters. In fact I think I remember Kathy Smith talking about this in a convention class long ago. 



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    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
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  • 7.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    John - This list is generally not as immediately responsive as a more socially-media structured discussion, so it can get a bit overwhelming if you pile-on with questions.  

    Regarding the first, question... sure, something could (and has been)  said for an acoustic advantage, but I'd be more concerned with the design of the concert hall itself, as well as the success of the rebuild.   

    As for re-using legs, I think not.  Measure the amount that would have to be cut off and then compare that cross section with the ones made for these casters.  They're still too undersized, I think.



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 8.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago
    Hi all, I did mention that many years ago. But it was a drastic case and I don't recommend it, it's very difficult to do and will look awful. In this case, an older Hamburg had had its casters removed years prior and it was put on a dolly, and that left the lyre 1/4" from the floor and it kept getting damaged. The venue wanted it back on casters but the old Hamburg brass casters had been lost, and they were an in-between size of 3" tall, so the current casters of 5" tall would put the lyre too high off the floor. Our only recourse was to cut 2" off the bottom of the legs and use the 5" tall brass wheels. The spade bottoms on the legs looked a bit odd but reasonable with that smaller amount cut off. The difficulty was getting a square bottom cut with all those angles of the spade and leg - nothing is a straight line. Then we had to re-drill the center hole deeper to accept the socket length. Getting the appropriate shorter legs for the big brass casters is the correct way to go. 

    Also, yes, I had several instances of broken large brass casters from bad handling, but several of those turned out to be a broken socket inside the leg. The socket has an outer flange that has the three holes used to screw it up into the leg, and that flange broke off from the shock of being dropped, leaving the caster loose and floppy. The broken-off flange was still screwed to the wood inside, and it kept the rest of the socket (a threaded tube) from falling out on the floor. At the time I could only buy a whole set of casters with sockets, so I ended up with spares. Yes, they are very pricey, but I had a lot of pianos that used them. But now you can buy them separately, I noticed, though I haven't needed any since I saw that somewhere. 

    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 9.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    Kathy, thanks much for that clarification of my vague memory! It may have been something like 20 years ago that I attended your leg class.



    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
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  • 10.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago

    Hi All. In the Concert Hall at NIU we have both a NY D and Fazioli on the large brass casters. Over 22 years, the D broke a leg and the Fazioli 2, due to students moving the piano out onto a stage lift which then sagged. Who knew pianos can't jump an inch. 
    The Steinway was first. At the time, it was on a dolly, but hit something with enough force and it translates very nicely to the leg.
    We opted to change to Hamburg legend brass casters, but at the time Steinway had not yet changed to the new leg plate design, so fitting the new legs was not a real problem.
    we did this partially because it was my understanding that the piano rocks less side to side when being played, so the pianist transfers power into bass and treble more effectively. This does seem to be the case, though we didn't really have a way to do an A/B test, since the old leg was already broken.

    The CH stage is oak flooring laid over cement.

    After the Fazioli suffered two breakages, I bought a used Grand Piano Transporter with help from Kathy Smith. No damage since. I did discover, belatedly, that the original design of the device was rated for a 9' piano and 1000 pounds. The Fazioli 278 is 9'2", and over 1200 pounds, so I had a local retired metal worker make a new piece connecting  the front and back pieces, changed the wheels to an inch taller (the Fazioli sits higher off the floor) and beefed up the unit with heavy bolts instead of the cotter pins it comes with. Also, you have to coach the student workers to Not leave the release valves open on the jacks or you'll have to learn how to replace the oil in the jacks. Still, it works, and no more broken legs. 



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    David Graham,RPT
    Graham Piano Service, Inc
    Sycamore IL 60178
    815-353-5450
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  • 11.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago
    Hi all, yes, I can vouch for the transporters too. I had several halls that used the Grand Transporter, and we have one in our own shop at home. David (Vanderlip) used to put a piano on it and enjoyed being able to adjust the height for various jobs, plus the ease of moving the piano around. The pressure should be relieved off the jacks each night, as mentioned. If the wheels need to be locked for some reason while working on it, the trick with 1/8" cord around the contact area between wheel and floor works great. 

    One of my venues sprung for the big expense of buying the round-looking Yamaha transporter, which has three pads that contact and lift the piano, but a big simple central wheel to turn that lifts all three pads at once. It has the same large wheels for smooth rolling, and well-trained students have used it for about ten years with no issues. It's worth looking at, if they're still available.

    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 12.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago
      |   view attached

    I posted this a couple of years ago, but maybe worth repeating.

    I think the large brass casters are worth considering.  Visually, they are a huge improvement over a spider dolly, and in our halls with hardwood floors, the tone is improved.  This is really not that big of a deal with the correct tools: a decent table saw, a sharp crosscut blade, a relatively powerful hand drill, and the appropriate sizes of forstner bits.  We have done this on 4 pianos with no issues. This is assuming the piano stays on a wood stage/backstage and has no elevated thresholds to cross.  We have used both the Hamburg and Schaff casters on our main stage for 30 years, with no issues.  Pianos are moved by faculty and students.  Our biggest concern is the legs becoming loose in the lock blocks over time, with the extra vibration of individual legs during moving, so we check the wedges the beginning of each semester.

    Our procedure:

    Use a board between the top of the leg and the fence, with holes drilled for dowels or locking plate.  This will allow the wide top of the leg to act as a stable guide during the cut as it slides along the fence.

    Place a thin layer of felt between the leg top and the table to avoid scratching during the cut.  Cut a second board with felt on the top side that is the appropriate size to lay in the miter slot in the table saw so the leg is raised to the point of the bottom being square with the blade.  This piece of wood needs to be long enough to allow the full cut.

    After determining the amount of wood to cut off the bottom of the leg (usually around 1.5 inches), set the fence from the blade at the appropriate distance.

    Tape around the area of the cut with masking tape to minimize chipping of the finish.  Pull the tape off in a downward motion, toward the cut.  Slightly rounding the edges after the cut and touching up with the correct lacquer or polyurethane restores a nice factory look.

    Cut two ½ inch plywood or other scrap wood the size of the new leg bottom.  Drill holes in the center of these with the two forstner bits – one for the stem and one for the plate.  These will act as your bit guides while the bit cuts into the leg, a must if there are previous holes in the legs from other casters, and for your second, plate hole.  Clamp the two boards together and drill screw holes through both in the corners so you can screw them to the bottom of the leg – this allows you to place both pieces in the same relative position when drilling.  Drill out the stem hole first, followed by the plate hole.  The plate hole should be recessed enough to hide the plate, but still allow for caster rotation. Occasionally the forstner bit is not an exact match with the caster stem and plate. A few minutes with a Dremel tool or paper shimming are easy fixes.

    Screw them on and reattach the legs. The whole process takes about 4 hours.



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    Rick Florence RPT
    Gilbert AZ
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  • 13.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago
    Hi Rick, if you mean you're cutting off part of the spade portion on an original NY leg (longer and thinner) what did that end up looking like? We figured having that much of the spade cut off could look odd proportionally, and the socket and the pressures it exerts will end up inside a thinner leg than the shorter, beefier legs meant to go with the big casters. Can you send any photos? 

    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 14.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago
    image


    ------------------------------
    Rick Florence RPT
    Gilbert AZ
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  • 15.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago
    Thanks Rick! Beautiful photo. 

    Kathy

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 16.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 6 days ago

    Rick, thanks so much for posting and describing the process so clearly and in detail.



    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago

    Concerning the question of whether or not a caster allows the piano to project more sound compared to a spider dollie, lots of people say it does. I don't think there is any actual objective evidence, though. It would be a great experiment to do, but a complex one. 

    Since the new legs with big casters would almost surely require a modified mounting system, you would need to be able to do a before picture, swap legs including mounting modification, then an after picture, with no intervening other changes to the piano. To give objective results, there would need to be well-planned miking of the piano that could be duplicated for the after picture. And probably a cooperating pianist who could play the same music.

    If someone could set that up, it would be a useful contribution to the trade, and a project worthy of consideration for a Foundation research grant.



    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@gmail.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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  • 18.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago

    Whatever the piano is sitting on can affect the performance of the piano.  Long ago, in a class given by Wally Brooks, he told us that he was going to make the piano project to the back of the room.  He pulled out a set of wooden caster cups and proceeded to install them under the casters.  This was on the second story of the hotel, with a concrete floor under the carpet.  The sound really did bloom!  Somehow the caster cups isolated the piano from the floor.  Concrete is some crazy stuff.  It will soak up vibrations.  Whether a piano on a dolly makes a different sound than one placed on the floor, I don't know.  But it wouldn't surprise me if it did.  I have to believe that a piano on a dolly will be affected by the steel spider legs.  Something to try at a convention with lots of trained ears to listen to the result.



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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
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  • 19.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago

    Fred,

    I think the difference in tone is largely dependent on the type of floor.  The stage floor at ASU is a wood floor, set on joists above concrete, so it acts somewhat as a soundboard.  I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make on a concrete floor, or a wood directly on concrete floor.

    An experiment would not be that difficult to set up, assuming you used a floor that would cooperate, or, better yet, use a few different floors.  If you were to observe/record a piano with casters fitted first, you could then remove the casters and set the piano on a dolly with the appropriate size shims (of the same wood species and grain orientation of which the legs are constructed) to restore the proper height.  Could be a fun thing to do at a convention, assuming you could find the necessary floor types.  Convention centers might be tough. Perhaps at a local university or conservatory...



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    Rick Florence RPT
    Gilbert AZ
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  • 20.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago
    Yes, I think the floor material would be an important factor. 

    Paul McCloud's anecdote about Wally Brooks putting wooden caster cups under the casters - situation with carpet and concrete substrate - indicated that that surface was absorbing vibrations, and that separating the piano from the substrate allowed more vibrations to be projected.

    The wooden floor presumably might be acting as an auxiliary soundboard, while the spider dolly was absorbing some energy and its rubber-faced casters were isolating it from the floor. 

    But that is just idle speculation. We won't really know until we do some kind of objective experimentation.

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "A mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled." Plutarch















  • 21.  RE: Large Casters or Spider Dollys

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago

    Perhaps a piezo pickup could be mounted on the different surfaces such as the bottom of the leg and the floor, and measurements could be taken to compare where vibrations are traveling and how much. 



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    Trevor Penner RPT
    Hillsboro KS
    (620) 877-0306
    music2himalone@gmail.com
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