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Long wippen flange

  • 1.  Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2022 08:33
    I'm faced with possibly replacing wippens on a 6'3" 1899 Stultz and Bauer. The wippen flanges, however, are much longer than what I have always encountered. The distance between the action center and the middle of the screw hole is not the usual 14mm or so, but approximately 19mm. (See photo.)

    Does anyone know where I can buy these extra long flanges?

    Disregard the red circles. I took this picture for a different reason than for posting here. The lighter flange is a standard length piece.

    Thank you for any help,
    John Parham
    19mm flange from action center to middle of screw hole


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    John Parham, RPT
    Hickory, NC
    828-244-2487
    john440@me.com
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  • 2.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Member
    Posted 10-11-2022 10:17
    And I thought I was the only one that saw strange things like this..... I looked up the company name and it is a US brand started in New York and later affiliated with Kohler and Campbell and Bjur.  If they didn't change the design maybe someone who has worked on those brands may know of a source. Sure would be nice to have a stock pile of parts off of old pianos. Some ideas are to try Igor Sadursky in LA, Antique Piano Shop in TN, talk to John Gallen at Brooks, find someone with a 3 D printer. Maybe you can modify the new flange by cutting it in half at the thick portion above the screw hole, add a spacer and glue it all together .

    Are you looking for a full set of identical whippens or just the flanges because you mentioned possibly replacing the flanges. You can consider just refurbishing what you have putting on new felt buttons on the jack and rep lev , new shank rebound felt cushions, spring cord etc

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2022 10:54
    Consider raising the wippen flange rail if you use new flanges. Or rebush the original flanges.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 4.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Member
    Posted 10-11-2022 18:13
    My thought would be to also raise the repetition rail and perhaps trim it to accommodate the new reps. I'd go with WNG.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 5.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2022 18:42
    Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I was drafting a response, but I had to leave for our PTG meeting.

    I am leaning toward the more substantial repair using WNG, cutting down the top rail, and shimming the rail up about 5 mm. I’m also dealing with a 2 inch capstan that puts the capstan-heel location almost an inch above the magic line. A WNG wippen cannot be modified to lower the heel reasonably close to the magic line. A universal weapon with slightly longer flanges would require trimming a minimal amount off the top of the rail, and I could modify the heel to be lower.

    Those are the two choices I’m dealing with now. I’m ordering a few universal weapons without heels to test results before making a decision.

    I will let you know what I find out.

    John Parham

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 6.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2022 11:30
    Will you need the extra height to avoid hitting the wippen rail?

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 7.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 27 days ago
    Larry,

    Sorry I did not see your post. It went to my junk mail by accident.

    The existing wippen flanges were longer than any available. I used M&H flanges, which were the longest ones I could find. I made up the height difference by shipping the rail up. Otherwise, the location of the wippens would be lower than the original position.

    John Parham

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 8.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2022 14:41
    Send an email inquiry to Abel. They may have some options for you (including duplicating parts).

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 9.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Member
    Posted 10-11-2022 19:36
    John .... just refurbish each of the existing whippens. You are likely create a monster if you start messing with capstans, cutting and shimming. Like the old saying goes measure twice cut once... but you are dealing with a piano that is different here. I am presently swapping out a full set of whips on a 1919 Mason & Hamlin. I got lucky finding a full set of Mason whips identical to the worn ones on the piano. I am going to put new whippen cushions on , plump up the whippen heels, replace any bad cord on the springs , clean up the wood  and maybe some other tweaks. If this is a job for a customer the bill for all of your labor could add up as well as the frustration if it goes south

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 10.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2022 01:48
    Patrick and Jim,

    Thank you for the value of your experience and suggestions.

    Time constraints does not offer the benefit of parts duplication. Customer demand does not allow me to refurbish. At this point, I have to offer new parts replacement options within the next few weeks.

    WNG is my preference, but they do not allow heel height flexibility that may help me improve extreme friction introduced by long capstans. Wooden parts with various heel positions and extensions will give me more information.

    I hope to use longer flanges that will clear the wippen rail enough to require minimal cutting of the wippen rail. Shimming up the wippen rail will be easy enough to bring new wippens to the original positions of current wippens. The new variable will be how long do I have to make the new wippen heels. I'll make samples once I have the materials to do so and will report back.

    Thank you all for your input.

    Jp

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    John Parham, RPT
    Hickory, NC
    828-244-2487
    john440@me.com
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  • 11.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2022 08:25
    John, I don't think this is a fine piano to begin with. Not a situation to dig in deeper.
    Why not refurbish the existing flanges and wippens: new flange bushings, cords and cushions, and put it back together the way it was made.
    New light weight hammers will be needed. I know the company who "rebuilt" this piano.
    [Use one of the teaching Saturdays in your shop to have your students work as a team to rebush the flanges and refurbish the wippens.]

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 12.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2022 23:28
    Ed,

    Since universal wippens are not available worldwide these days without a long wait, I've decided to do just that, with a couple additions.

    1. Put new M&H flanges on the existing wippens.
    2. Shim the wippen rail up 2mm to bring the parts up to the original height.
    3. Replace the rotten spring cords.
    4. Remove the wippen heel felt and add a homemade heel extension to bring the capstan-heel contact point closer to the magic line. Currently, it is 1-3/8" above it.
    5. Experiment with moving capstan to improve AR. Relocate capstans if necessary.
    6. Install new hammer shanks and flanges.
    7. Remove hammers and taper to reduce weight.
    8. Remove excess lead in keys within acceptable max ranges for good DW or Balance Weight numbers.

    I'm working on replacing wippen spring strings now... it's more tedious than I thought :(

    JP

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    John Parham, RPT
    Hickory, NC
    828-244-2487
    john440@me.com
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  • 13.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Member
    Posted 10-12-2022 23:36
    ha ha there should be an app for that

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 14.  RE: Long wippen flange

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2022 17:51
    John,

    "Time constraints does not offer the benefit of parts duplication. Customer demand does not allow me to refurbish. At this point, I have to offer new parts replacement options within the next few weeks".

    Can you offer further explanation on this?  Something just isn't adding up for me.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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