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tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

  • 1.  tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 14:56
    Greetings,

    A client who plays flute with the L. A. Philharmonic has a family heirloom Chickering grand, scale 121. The strings appear to be original. The plate says "A=435." She needs a piano at 440 (at least) to be able to play her flute with it for rehearsals at her home. 

    This has been discussed in the past on these lists. An attempt to search the archives for previous posts dealing with this question of tuning "435" 121s to 440 produced posts from some time ago. Everything I found indicated that strings may break, if they have been sufficiently work-hardened over the years. Did not find any caution about the plate not being able to handle the increased tension.

    As long as the plate is not at risk, I could propose that we try raising the pitch to 440 and what happens with the strings (knowing that we may lose some).

    Thoughts?

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 14:59
    Rescale and restring it, copying down the old wire sizes in case she wants to change it back some day?

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 15:42
    Susan,

    Restringing and rescaling would be an interesting project (and one that I expect many others, particularly in the Northeast, have done before).

    However, she wants to know if there is a pathway to getting it to 440 for hundreds--rather than thousands--of dollars.

    Best,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 15:52
    Well, Alan, of course you could give it a try, and it probably would be possible, maybe with some broken wire. However, one can assume that the present wire is brittle and tired, and getting overpulled will not improve anything. Rescaling and restringing, one would expect, would give far better tone and would be far safer over time. Assuming she's going to keep the piano, she could get many years of use, playing it at 440 with good wire and scaling to match.

    If the cost is divided by the number of years of use she could expect to get from it, the sticker shock might be less. Plus the US and the world seem to be spoiling for major inflation, so using the money now while it is still worth something might be a wise investment.

    Even if it can be raised to 440, it then would be trembling on the brink of string breakage, sort of a vulnerable position in which to find oneself.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 16:15
    Hi Alan,

    I've brought literally hundreds of pianos up to A440 when the plate said 435. Yes, you may break strings, and my limit is 3 if they're close to starting, but breakage didn't seem much different on rusty strings whether I brought them to 435 or 440. M two bits. J

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 6.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 16:24
    Thanks, Jim. Especially appreciate the large sampling on which your input is based.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 15:48
    I don't think there is any evidence to show that piano manufacturers paid attention to such a small pitch difference in designing and building their pianos. During that period there were "concert pitches" documented as high as 460. Furthermore, as we all know, pitch can change 25 or more cents due to seasonal humidity variance. 

    Most manufacturers pull their strings to 50 cents or more sharp for the first chipping, so as to accelerate the stretching and settling of the strings.

    I have tuned many pianos of the 435 era, including many Chickerings, to 440 with not a single problem - unless it was brittle/rusty/etc. strings that broke. That includes a Chickering 123 grand (no serial number found) with the brass wippen flanges, so late 19th to early 20th century.

    Almost all pianos, particularly American pianos, are overbuilt, stronger than they need to be. If it were me, I would have already tuned it to 440, without batting an eye.

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein












  • 8.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 16:04
    Thanks for your well-informed input, Fred. It helps me to do due diligence for my client before proceeding. 

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 16:23
    As Jim and Fred suggest, go for it! We do it all the time here in "the original homeland of Chickering."
    For extra caution use ProLube or Jon Page's CBL on the underfelt and agraffees/capo bar.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 16:26
    Good idea about using some of John Page's Counter Bearing Lube in the locations you mentioned, Patrick.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2022 00:42
    Alan,

    Let me put in another vote for cranking it up to 440.  I would lubricate and generously drop the pitch before pulling each string up but I have also pulled up hundreds of older pianos with no or few problems.

    Three broken strings would be about my red flag, though I might just offer the customer a discounted rate for broken strings over that and try to get it all the way up.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2022 08:07
    Blaine,

    My S.O.P. is to drop pitch first, though usually only slightly (to facilitate rendering and ensure that the lever is on the correct tuning pin). Sounds like you have noticed that dropping pitch generously makes a difference worth pursuing in a situation like this. Seems that it could help better distribute any lubricant added at the near termination point(s).

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2022 11:37
    Alan, 
    What I try to do (in theory) is to break the contact points at the pressure or capo bar and bridge, distribute my lubricant and possibly polish the friction points (though this is often hopeless with sticking strings). Sufficiently experienced minds probably come to similar conclusions. Every string is it's own individual.



    Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device






  • 14.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2022 19:08
    Alan,
    After nearly 50 years of tuning I am starting to figure out how, in another 50 I might have it down.

    I am experimenting with the concept of "Tuning at the bridge"; trying to understand what is happening at the bridge during normal tuning.  One idea is that by destabilizing the bridge contact points you might get better rendering and thus better stability.  A generous drop in the pitch might break, or at least stress some of the friction at the bridge and allow better rendering when at or just over pitch.  Most of my tunings seem to hold quite well, so I might not be completely incorrect.

    I have not experienced a bass string break in quite a while and I seldom have breaking strings during dramatic pitch raises, perhaps this is because I am doing something right (though this is purly anecdotal and a far cry from scientific).

    Perhaps I should drop by and we could have a decent argument!

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2022 19:29
    Blaine, if you drop pitch more than minimally, enough that some wire moves around the hitch pin (even just a little bit) you'll have fresh wire at the contact points. Over time, wire at the front bearing and the bridge pins tends to flatten. So, the better tone and rendering might be mainly from fresh still round wire being at the termination points of the speaking length. 





  • 16.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-26-2022 14:53
    Susan,
    Yes, I have had that happen and yes that is a risk and yes it causes other problems with stability and yes you should not do that.

    I try not to drop the pitch so much that it renders at the hitch pin, though if it does on a small drop then it was probably unstable anyway.

    I will not argue that my dramatic manipulations can cause some instability.  I do seem to have to repeatedly touch up unisons on strings that I might have dropped too far or raised up too high.

    As for the flattening.... I will definately get out my micrometer and see on my next broken string!

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2022 19:37
    Blaine,

    If you would like to argue, I'm game! I would, however, need to know what we would be arguing about ;-].

    I hear what you are saying about generous pitch drop to facilitate rendering across the bridge. What you're saying sounds reasonable. As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, so your stable tunings do show that you are indeed doing something right... maybe SEVERAL somethings!

    Best,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 00:26
    I would prefer to argue about everything.

    There are few areas of piano technology that don't deserve to be examined under new magnifying glasses and few rules and "accepted concepts" that should not be re-examined, not just by new techs but also by us seasoned and thoroughly rutted in guys.

    I have been embarrased by questioning an accepted process that was clearly the best technique, but I also see a lot of accepted procedures and designs that I seriously suspect  might not be wisdom from the angels.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2022 10:50
    I rebuilt a magnificent Chickering 116 using the original scale and it is wonderful. It also said 435 on the plate. (Bolduc soundboard)
    Before I rebuilt it, I maintained it at A440 for several years with original strings with no ill effects.

    Perhaps I should have had it rescaled , but I was delighted as was the customer. She is a professional violinist.

    Nancy Salmon, RPT
    LaVale, MD





  • 20.  RE: tune "A=435" Chickering 121 to A=440?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2022 11:35
    If you were rescaling in this situation, presumably to lower the total tension inherent in raising the pitch of the piano by 20¢, the only factor you would have available is string diameter assuming you aren't planning to make a newly designed bridge. Dropping string diameter by half a gauge per note for the plain wire would almost certainly drop the tension enough, maybe more than enough. Someone with scaling software could provide that answer.

    Break point percentage would stay pretty much exactly the same, as the relationship between strength, diameter and tension is in sync (not counting the small difference due to work hardening during the drawing process). The sound would be a wee bit weaker - less vibrational energy.

    There was a strong tendency in the second half of the 19th century and early 20th for piano technicians to restring with heavier gauges, going up half to a full gauge for all the plain wire. (How do I know this? A couple piano technical manuals of the late 19th century specifically urge readers not to do this. They must have been reacting to common practice.)

    The aim of increasing diameters was to increase tension and thereby make the pianos "louder and more brilliant," in keeping with what was done throughout the century by manufacturers as stronger wire became available. Unfortunately, many of these pianos were not strong enough to resist the additional tension, so we have a lot of twisted square piano cases and raised grand cheeks as a result.

    I am bringing this up as a warning not to rely on existing string gauges of older pianos if they have been restrung, especially if they are as early as the mid 19th century. Typical top strings would have been 11 or even 10 gauge. 

    Best,
    Fred Sturm
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -Gustav Mahler