Pianotech

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You know you're not charging enough when...

  • 1.  You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2022 19:45
    ...you hand the customer your invoice and they say: "Oh, that's all? The last tuner charged twice as much, and didn't do nearly as good a job as you."

    ...and then does not give you a tip. 


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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 2.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2022 20:07
    If I could have had a dollar for every time one of my customers asked if that enough, I could retire. 

    Oh, wait.......




    Wim





  • 3.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2022 20:35
    For me, it usually seems to be right when I bid between $700-$1000 for a job and the client gives me 'the face,' then says, "Oh really? We were expecting $2-$3k to get it fixed."

    Facepalm. I am getting better at bidding, but it still hurts whenever I get this comment. Should've bid higher!

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Member
    Posted 05-25-2022 00:53
    Is any one charging a fuel fee to help with the increase on full costs ? Our gas prices in SC are all above $4 a gallon and in the Boston area, CT and NJ where I was recently is was closer to $5 a gallon. I have a 19 gallon tank so its $76 to fill @ $4 a gallon and $ 95 @ $5 a gallon


    Someone recently said my fees where high to which I replied a plumber or electrician charges even more
    ​​

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 5.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 09:51

    $4/gallon? I'm going to drive over there to fill up! We're at $5.15 in Oregon. I've raised my mileage rate. I don't charge for a 10-mile radius, but I'm thinking of changing that too. I used to have a zone rate-this much for this city, etc. but distances within cities can vary widely.

    Perception of fees is an interesting topic not only because it varies so much but because most of the time we probably never really know what people are thinking. They're generally too polite to say one way or another. 

    I had a guy come to fix my rattling screen door-he charged $115 just to show up. Plus more to "fix it," which he didn't really do. I just smiled and forked it over, but made a mental note not to call him again. I suspect most people are like that.

    I'll bet many pianos get trapped in a continuous pitch raise/poor regulation condition: the owner gets it tuned infrequently, each time getting a price shock as fees rise. Then another decade goes by. Repeat.

    if someone were to complain about a basic tuning fee (they haven't), that actually makes my life easier because I won't chase them down next year. Reminder card and postage stamp saved.



    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 12:38

    I recently raised my rates after 5 years at the same rate.  It's not gas, only.  It's everything else has gone up a lot as well.  With Diesel prices going through the roof, everything will continue to add to inflation, not just our driving needs.  Again, Steinway massively increased their parts recently.  I'm not going to eat that either.

     

    It's a nasty upward spiral that shows no signs of stopping.

     

    There again, what were your tuning prices 25 years ago??  Who can afford to live on $50-75 prices? Weren't tuning prices about $25 in the '50"s?

     

    It's just life.  It's not great.

     

    If we ever had a huge DE-flation (LOLOLOL) would you lower your current rates accordingly?

     

     






  • 7.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 10:11
    Fuel fee add on? Nope. It's a cost of business, like insurance, tools, vehicle ownership, etc.
    Adjust your prices. Work at getting away from fossil fuels (panels on your roof, mini splits for heat & A/C, buy an EV).
    Currently driving a gas hog RAV4, I need to change that.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 10:25
    Patrick,
    Isn't it a question of what you call it? You don't have to call it a "fuel fee." You can just call it a "standard mileage rate."

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 10:28
    A question about raising tuning fees because of higher gas. I think most of us would agree that the price of gas will eventually come down. Will you lower your tuning fee when it does?

    Wim.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 10.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 11:24
    Am I running a non profit agency? No. Profit is good.
    Inflation has been rising on many fronts in the past 2 (or so) years. If a true hard-impact recession results in ALL prices (not just gasoline) crashing, sure, my tuning price might shrink a bit.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 11:42

    Wim,
    It's an excellent question, one I've considered. I wonder how many technicians lowered their tuning fees in the wake of the 2008 crash? I'm guessing most people held the same fees, instead delaying typical occasional increases.

    One could argue that raising and lowering rates-for whatever reason-may complicate our business relationships. One has to be careful in how price fluctuations are presented. I think it ties in with other issues of discounting and package deals, doesn't it? Perceptions matter. For example, you offer people "full-service" tuning. I don't, but I charge more for doing extra work on neglected pianos. So, in the end we both get to the same place financially. You're offering a different mental construct for the customer.



    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 11:43
    A possible related development might be rethinking driving efficiency, i.e., saving gas dollars by less driving and buying more efficient vehicles. 

    Richard West






  • 13.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 14:32
    And the better electric vehicles retail for at least twice the price of the "legacy" fossil fuel consuming/polluting vehicles. Price your services so you can make the conversion.
    PS If your service area isn't vast (i.e., city or dense suburb) there are good (smaller) EVs at prices quite competitive with similarly sized gas car prices.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Posted 05-25-2022 15:20
    Pat, last year I bought a new Rav 4 Prime. In Hybrid mode it gets around 43 mpg. I prefer driving on elec. with the battery charged. But when I can't plug it in, the gas takes over.  Both gas and elec. gets roughly .10 cents/mile. A better vehicle than the Escape, tows better too.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 16:02
    Don't forget to out aside an extra $10,000 or so for when those EV batteries need replacing...

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 17:12

    Not to mention increased electricity bills due to charging it at your house, as well as the actual cost of the charging system. I'm sure I'm some cases this is included with the EV, but I know in many cases it's not. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Posted 05-25-2022 17:26
    Also keep in mind that electricity is mostly generated by...fossil fuels. And states like California can barely supply its own electrical needs now. Electric vehicles aren't sustainable yet. But that might be a feature and not a bug.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma
    New Albany MS

    "Sneak up on optimal."
    --Ron Nossaman
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 14:34

    Richard,

    I did a cost / benefit analysis of getting a hybrid vehicle a year and a half ago. Calculating how much gas I used with gas prices at $4.50 a gallon (I lived in California at the time, now that's the nationwide average price I believe), and assuming everything else was about the same between the regular sedan and the hybrid (year, mileage, etc.), I found that the additional cost of the hybrid would take me about 7-8 years to recoup in fuel savings. It was a really nice thought, especially considering how much I drive, but it just wasn't worth it for me. 

    Additionally, depending on where you live, repairs may cost more as well. Not every mechanic can fix a hybrid. Maybe in the future the technology will be cheap enough for it to be worth it for me to make the switch. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 16:46
    Ben,

    Always good to do a cost/benefit analysis. My suggestion in rethinking such things was to include cost to the planet and where we might be going there.

    Richard





  • 20.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 17:55
    So Benjamin, I'm ahead of the game with a 10 year old Prius with 200,000 miles on it!

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Posted 05-25-2022 18:57
    My wife drives a 2009 Prius. It has 254,000 miles. Original hybrid battery. Great car for what it is. Amazing space for cargo. New hybrid battery last year was around $1800 (not through Toyota). They'll come to our house to do the replacement.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma
    New Albany MS

    "Sneak up on optimal."
    --Ron Nossaman
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 20:20
    I rented a Prius a few weeks ago and really liked it (except for the weird thing obstructing the view out the rear window).
    I'm thinking that hybrids are the way to go until the electric thing ifs fully mature.

    Don't forget, there's more to the car decision than just gas mileage. There's reliability, cargo capacity, all-weather performance.
    I bought a 4Runner a couple of years ago and don't regret it at all, in spite of the poor gas mileage. Especially slogging up a rocky track in the middle of nowhere in the mountains and with no cell service. It's also old-school with real knobs and buttons instead of one of those darn screens like my wife's Acura. I hate the screens that look like iPads sticking up and superglued (CA'd?) to the dash. They look like they're just screaming to be hit with something and damaged. Unfortunately, something like a 4Runner that's a hybrid or EV would cost a fortune and weight 6 tons. When I bought it, I glanced at the price of hybrid Highlanders--almost $20,000 more.

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2022 03:55
    Well, I work in Rural Northern California (where gas is at $6.00 in many places) and my tunings are sometimes 15 minutes from my house, and sometimes 1-1/2 hours (One way, not round-trip), so I do charge travel time (after all, besides the fuel & wear and tear on my vehicle, there's my time too).  Generally, if the travel time is a half-hour or less, I don't charge extra, that's built into my tuning fee.
    As for EV's well here at least they are warning us that there will be rolling black outs  later this summer; we don't have enough power to go around, let alone to go around when everyone is driving EVs and has all-electric homes. I live in an area where we are encouraged to have stand-by generators to power our home when the power gets shut off, due to high fire danger. Not certain how safe and efficient it is to have all those generators running when the grid goes down.  And by the way, those fancy batteries in those EVs require some rare elements that have to be mined from the earth, and lots of manufacturing costs too (which uses up energy from ????. ).  Everything one does has effects on the earth, but few folks seem to be able to connect the all the dots to understand what their choices actually do the earth overall.  One farmer asked me, "If I get an electric tractor (or harvester, or. . . ) where am I going to plug it in when the battery dies in the middle of 80 acres of my field?" And yes, the government is pushing for farmers to convert to electric!
    David Dewey
    Who notes that my player piano can be human-pedaled to provide music when there is no power. .





  • 24.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2022 08:03
    Since this topic has morphed into the pros and con of electric vehicles, one of the prime reasons I am not considering one is the range and power. I have a Pathfinder which I use to pull a 5000 lbs camping trailer. My wife and I are on a 6000 mile "vacation". Some days we drive only 200 miles, but most days it's 250 - 300, which takes about 5 - 6 hours. Pulling a trailer uses more power. It's bad enough I have to stop every 200 miles to fill the gas tank, which takes less than 5 minutes. I don't want to wait 4 -5 hours to charge the battery. 

    Maybe one of these years they will have 4 or 5 charging stations at each gas station and be able to charge a battery in less than 30 minutes. But until that time come, I'll drive a gas powered car, thank you. 

    Wim





  • 25.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2022 18:00
    Well, when I started this thread I was hoping that others would contribute funny stories. But, as Wim mentioned, it has morphed into one about cars/mileage, service area and billing. All worthwhile subjects. Soooo... Here's my 2¢.

    I don't raise my rates often enough, I'm sure. But when I do I always look at the number that I think it "should" be and ask myself if I would be willing to pay that much for a tuning. I then lower that number until I'm comfortably about halfway between current and "should" rate. 

    I have been driving hybrids for about 10 years now. Prius was top of the line for a long time but I hated the two that I had mostly because they had horrible blind spots and the storage was exposed. When I traded my last Prius in, (I lease), I was offered the new Toyota hybrid, the Corolla. The new Corolla hybrid has replaced the Prius and is now basically a Prius in a Corolla shell. I like it a lot. I'm getting 56.7 mpg. And living in LA that means a lot since gas here is just over $6 per gallon. Also, more storage, in a real trunk, and I can get both a grand and an upright action into the back seat when the seats are folded down. 

    My main complaints about all electric vehicles are, as many have already said, a) too few charging stations and insufficient mileage to make a longer trip. And b) for the most part all electric vehicles do not, in reality, actually reduce emissions a significant amount. Until we develop an extremely wide spread non-polluting method of generating electricity, the process of charging electric vehicles merely moves the pollution from your town into someone else's town far away. Most of the power in LA still comes from natural gas plants located in cities far away. In fact, the current SoCal power grid extends not only up into the PNW, but also clear into central Utah where their plants are still powered by coal. Electric powered vehicles are currently just NIMBY ways of moving the pollution elsewhere. 

    When I started in this business I was accepting tunings that were cruel driving distances. I had one that was in Palm Springs and involved a two hour drive, each way. Customer was happy to pay my hourly rate for drive time but I made damn sure I didn't overlook anything because a n/c return trip to take care of something I missed was not going to be a fun adventure. (Fortunately that never happened.) Now, years later, I'm a lot more conservative in how far I'm willing to drive and I'm blessed with having a large number of pianos to service in an acceptable service area. I have been able to reassign almost all of my customers that I now consider too far away to other young and talented techs closer to them. There are a surprising number of very good techs here in LA, and yet I don't think any of us feel like we're in competition with anyone. I have successfully reduced my service area to one where, on the extremely rare occurrence that I do need to make a n/c return trip I can do so without getting angry at myself. Well, at least not because of the drive. And I'm still able to keep my calendar as full as I am comfortable having it, with customers that I enjoy, that mostly have pianos that are rewarding to work on.

    Larry: 55mph? Hah! Posted freeway speed here in LA is 65. Just to keep up with surrounding traffic, when it's not congested, which is rare, I find myself going between 75 & 80, and still being passed both left and right. Strangely, on the rare occasion when I travel outside of SoCal I find that most people actually adhere to the posted speed limit. Yes, we're rebels!

    David: Dealers say the batteries in most newer hybrid and electric vehicles will outlast the vehicle itself, Of course, ymmv.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Posted 05-26-2022 11:30
    I had bought a 2020 Kia Soul.  For just general tuning and bringing actions back to my shop, it was an excellent choice.  When I bought it, I was getting about 37 miles to the gallon.. but I had a lead foot.  In the beginning of 2020 I decided I was going to be that "guy" and only drive the speed limit.. no matter if it was 65 or 45.  My gas mileage started going up as I changed my driving habits.  I currently get 44 city and 45 highway.  I try not to get in to stop and go traffic situations as that can drive down gas milage.

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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2022 16:02
    Jimmy Carter was right! We need a 55mph speed limit on the freeway. Gas savings means more gas to go around and possibly lower prices.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 14:25

    I used to charge a travel fee, but for years it's just been worked into my price. I typically raise my price once a year, usually by the amount of inflation, rounded up to the next highest $5. (Charging $xx3.68 for a service call is just weird.) This past year I raised my rates significantly more than the 8% of inflation from last year. My reasoning was, the same economic factors and policies that caused an 8% jump in inflation are still in effect now, so I can reasonably expect more inflation this year. Turned out to be accurate. 

    Not to criticize anyone in particular, but I don't understand the wait-five-years-to-raise-my-rates thing. The way I see it, if one doesn't raise their rates by the amount of inflation each year, one is taking a pay cut by that same amount - every year. Personally, I like being able to buy the same amount of groceries this year as last year. 

    I've only had one person complain, despite my telling him what the price would be over the phone. When I mentioned the cost of groceries and gas (and overall inflation), he acknowledged that those were real things and that I had to make a living too. I'm not sure if he'll call back or not. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 20:28
    Ben,
    If you don't charge some kind of travel fee, how can you account for the vast disparity of mileage to different customers?

    I can't possibly charge the same price for someone a mile away as for a customer 90 miles away (yes, I drive that far...). 

    I've found that people are very understanding of mileage charges (I don't call them "fuel surcharges"). If someone lives way out, they expect to pay extra to get anyone--plumber, electrician, vet, etc. If they really want a piano technician, they're happy to have me, even if it costs more. Especially if they know there's almost no one in a 200 mile radius.

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2022 20:43

    When I lived in California I drove varying distances everyday, and charged different rates for different areas (a different travel fee for each area, but worked into the overall cost). Since moving to Alabama, the vast majority of my clients live within 25 minutes of my house. Except in the rare event of my traveling up to Tennessee, it doesn't make sense for me to charge a separate travel fee. 

    My business changed with the geography. It works for here, but it wouldn't if my clients were as spread out as they were in California. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: You know you're not charging enough when...

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2022 06:21
    I am on my 3rd increase of the year, totaling 20%, as my customers expect the higher price for service. Their feedback has made me come to the conclusion that, in these times, they are more than willing to pay the extra. Extra millage fee...no. It is part of the extra overall fee they are happy to pay.

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    Greg Junker RPT
    Greg Junker's Piano Shoppe, LLC
    Belleville IL
    (618) 971-9595
    ------------------------------