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Tuning Square Grands

  • 1.  Tuning Square Grands

    Member
    Posted 07-25-2017 22:42
    I looked at a Vose and Sons Square Grand in a home located in Georgetown SC and purchased by someone in North Carolina. It was in much better shape than I thought I would find it and it is obvious some work had been done to it in the way of restringing. Very tight coils, tuning pins at the same height with plate clearance, only one off color Ivory head, no broken strings and very full sound. Massive case in rosewood with carved legs. The serial number dates it to the end of 1884 . It will be tuned in North Carolina but I was asked if it could be tuned to A440. Since I know very little about squares I am not sure what the pitch maximum is so perhaps someone can tell me. Does anyone know the answer ?  Also looking for someone in NC that could take care of it . The buyer lives in the Charlotte area.
    I am thinking 435 may be the highest but I am not even sure of that..

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2017 08:08
    If you think it was restrung than out was probably scaled to A440.





  • 3.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Member
    Posted 07-26-2017 09:08
    I am trying to get the history of it. All I know so far is outlined in original message. The current owner is a musician but was not there. He may have a clue. My colleague from Columbia did not do it although he di work on another square in another old home. I will send you some pictures if you would like. Do you know much about square grands ? BTW the St Louis Convention was awesome. I bough a poster of the tool box from Taunton Press that writes Fine Woodworking




  • 4.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2017 08:13
    Send pics.  And yes, i do about 2 squares a year.





  • 5.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-27-2017 10:54
    Here's a bit of history....

    Vose & Sons | The Antique Piano Shop
    Antiquepianoshop remove preview
    Vose & Sons | The Antique Piano Shop
    Like most Boston makers, Vose & Sons built truly exceptional pianos. The firm was originally established in 1851 by James Whiting Vose on Washington Street in Boston. In the 19th Century, Boston was home to a large population of old world craftsmen who had immigrated to the United States from the old country.
    View this on Antiquepianoshop >

    Here's a quote if found when researching pitch for a friend's antique rosewood George M. Guild
    1861 "cocked hat" Grand piano. We tune it at 440 and it has not exploded, yet! (Yes, it was rebuilt
    with modern wire).


    Quoted text:

     The history of musical pitch as it relates to piano tuning has important consequences. Stringed-keyboard music written in the Baroque and Classic periods (including the music of J.S. Bach, Handel, Joseph Haydn, W.A. Mozart, C.P.E. Bach and Beethoven) was originally intended to be played at a low pitch which ranged from A=420 to A=430, nearly a semitone lower than A=440. Obviously, the musical result of playing harpsichord and early piano music at A=440 is considerably different from the less brilliant low pitch the composers originally intended. In the Romantic Period pitch skyrocketed upward well past A=440 and it fluctuated wildly according to location and performing arena. For example, in 1879 Steinway in New York used a tuning fork which produced A=457.2 while Chickering in Bostonpreferred A=435, the international pitch standard established by a French Commission in 1859. Still it is likely that most of the late 19th-century pianos (grands, squares and uprights) built in the United States after the Civil War (1865) were tuned at a pitch higher than A=440.
     
    What is not said is that in Boston there were 2 pitches the high pitch,
    and the low pitch (mentioned above)....
     
    See the chart of pitches....but it does not list the Boston pitch, which I found somewhere else...I
    need to search my old files to find the exact 2 pitches from Boston....
     



    ------------------------------
    Richard Adkins
    Piano Technician
    Cedar Rapids IA
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-27-2017 11:53
    Er, sorry, but Ed Swenson's view of historical pitch levels is appallingly out-of-date, and to no uncertain degree represents the vast gulf of communication between modern musicology and the modern piano technicans' world. With its publication in 2002, Bruce Haynes' "The Story of A" immediately became THE standard reference world-wide on historical pitch, and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the topic. His study is of woodwind instruments, but that's just fine because until the mid 19th century, all historical tuning instruction tell you to get your starting pitch from a wind instrument, NOT a tuning fork. If they had to agree with anything, keyboards had to agree with winds, because most woodwinds are quite limited in their pitch flexibility.

    Here's the quick and fast version of what Haynes found. There were essentially 4 pitch levels, going back at least to the 17th century if not earlier. Lowest was French "opera" at ≈492, then "normal" German cammerton or chamber pitch ≈415, German chorton or cornetton, which was the pitch of almost all church organs, ≈465. In between was a thing the Germans called "the exotic Venetian pitch" ≈440. There is no evidence whatsoever for 430 during the Classical era. There were a few oddballs, such as the French pitch of the King's chamber music orchestra, ≈408, and a high German chorton ≈490. There is a vast amount of historical literature which supports this, including things such as organ parts written a whole tone lower than the orchestra parts, the requirement that all prospective organists be able to transpose a score a prima vista, constant references to the different pitch levels in temperament literature, and two mid-18th century letters from the famous organ builder Silberman to prospective clients talking about what has to be decided upon when ordering a new instrument, among which is the pitch level, of which he says there are 4 possibilities separated by a halfstep each. Charles Burney describes an organ he saw in Hamburg which had originally been built in the 1720's with sliding keyboards and pedal to transpose by halfsteps over a range of a minor third (French opera to German chorton), but when he saw it, it had been blocked in a single position; he doesn't say why, but my guess is that they couldn't stand the Equal Tempeament which was required for the original design.

    Personally, from my reading of German works on temperament, organ tuning/design, piano design and physical sciences from the 19th century, I can say that they considered 440 to be the norm from the 1830's onward, though they admitted that not everyone adhered to it. Both Kützing and Töpfer, writing in the 1830's-40's, use 440 as the reference pitch for their calculations of pianos scales and stringing schedules, as does Scheibler in all of his works discussing the precision measurement of musical tone frequencies.

    Cheers,

    Paul

    ------------------------------
    Paul Poletti
    Builder/restorer historic keyboard instruments
    Poletti Pianos
    Barcelona
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2017 12:21
    What Paul wrote, with respect to overall pitch history. When it comes to details about 19th - 20th century pitch connected to pianos, the story is somewhat convoluted, but centers mostly around 440 and above (with close to 460 in England as a distinct possibility for pianos). 435 was really lower than what most musicians were doing, when it was adopted in France in the 1850s, and was never firmly accepted internationally, with 440 - 445 more likely. Still, it is essentially in the same ball park, and if anything, a piano intended for the international market might be expected to need to be tunable a half step higher (457 - 460).

    When it comes to being practical, if the piano has original strings from 1860, they may very well break when pulled up to 440, due to age and rust. Restringing will resolve that problem. The difference in wire strength from 1860 on is not very significant. By 1880 it was like modern wire, and 1860 wasn't far below.

    When dealing with a 19th century piano that has been restrung, one should suspect that the restringer might have decided to increase the wire diameter by a half size to a full size. This was fairly common practice, and resulted in racked frames of squares among other things. The additional brilliance of tone (initially) was the reason people did this. It is similar to rebuilders always lowering the plate when replacing the pinblock, "to achieve more down bearing." How do you determine what the original scaling was? Not too easy (maybe there are string sizes inked somewhere - but whose gauges?), unless you have access to a piano of the same model with original strings.

    In any case, to answer the question "can it be tuned to 440?" I would experiment and see how much string breakage there is. That's always been my approach. If you are rebuilding it, any piano from 1850 on should be tunable to 440 (and it should be restrung to the original scale or thereabouts), unless there are structural problems - which should be addressed when rebuilding, or it shouldn't be rebuilt.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-27-2017 12:50
    Oops!! Meant to say, French opera pitch was 392, not 492!

    Cheers!

    P

    ------------------------------
    Paul Poletti
    Builder/restorer historic keyboard instruments
    Poletti Pianos
    Barcelona
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-27-2017 13:23
    So I'm a little confused. 

    One technician gives credibility to a website that touts square pianos as being extremely valuable ( $30,000- $45,000) and another technician warns of their lack of worth. 

    Can someone please explain this contradiction?

    BTW, I don't think those histories presented on that website are very honest as they seem to be biased toward sales and attempt to create sentimental value over factual accuracy.  I have researched several companies in more deatail, including Vose and Sons ( because my mom owns a V&S Grand) and their history is much more interesting than the generic version of 123: 

    1. They immigrated here
    2. They made great pianos
    3. They went out of business because on the great depression.

    Just my 2 coppers.






  • 10.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-27-2017 17:35
    It's a buyers' market!
    Find the buyer and you've established the value.
    Notice they are marketing pianos in China.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Member
    Posted 07-27-2017 18:46
    Paul .. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS INFO IT IS A FASCINATING TOPIC. WHEN I TUNED THE CHICKERING GRAND IT HAD HAD A435 INTERNATIONAL PITCH STAMPED ON THE PLATE. I HAVE SEEN THAT ON SEVERAL GRANDS BUT HAVE NOT HAD A PROBLEM GOING TO A440 READING ABOUT BROKEN PLATES IT SEEMS MOST BREAK BECAUSE OF A FLAW IN THE STRUT, GETTING DROPPED, POOR CASTING ETC. FROM WHAT I READ THEY ARE OVER ENGINEERED AND CAN WITHSTAND THE EXTRA TENSION. I DONT KNOW EMOUGH ABOUT SQUARES FROM THE ERA THIS PIANO CAME FROM. I DO KNOW THAT VOSE WAS ONE OF THE BETTER BOSTON BUILDERS AND IN FACT HAD A HUGE FACTORY ON MASSACHUSETTS AVENUE IN BOSTON. THIS PIANO AS IS SOUNDS VERY GOOD. I BELIEVE IT HAS MODERN STRINGS ON IT AND PROBABLY WAS RESCALED. THE HISTORY OF IT IS A MYSTERY RIGHT NOW SINCE NONE OF THE TECHS I KNOW HAVE WORKED ON IT.




  • 12.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2017 20:38
    I think Chickering decided to publicize 435 because they were focused on France, having received top prizes at expos there including the legion of honor. 435 was the one and only standard pitch of its time, and reigned pretty much until 440 in the early/mid 20th century (though there were noises about pitches such as 440 and 442 in advance of that, with many orchestras using pitches around 440. Why? Because of wind instruments. Musicians did not replace their instruments when France established 435 as the national standard). 

    I would not interpret the 435 on a Chickering (or any other piano) plate as meaning that the piano should not be tuned to 440. They were simply adopting the current standard. Piano manufacturer by and large all over designed and overbuilt their pianos. 

    Broken plates come almost entirely from flaws in the casting process, including design - in the sense of not allowing for cooling to take place properly. My guess is that that is the problem with many Bechsteins. Not necessarily that the design was bad per se, but that the design together with execution led to internal stresses caused by uneven cooling and setting, resulting in later cracking.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel






  • 13.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Member
    Posted 07-27-2017 22:01
    It is great to get validation about why plates break and the stampings or decals on them being just that. When I started out I worked on a player in a bed and breakfast. I was scared that I had broken the plate trying to get to 440. After regrouping and consulting other techs I went back to business and did multiple pitch raises. It had sounding like chimes and gongs and probably had its prior tuning at the factory. I did have a customer who had gotten a "free" piano in exchange for some work he did. The gentlemen had it in his garage and had put lots of work into it stripping down the case, cleaning it. Unfortunately there was a crack in the plate. It could have happened when it got moved or someone took advantage of him. Shame on people that do that.

    In tracking shipments from the Chickering and Sons factory using their logs I have not seen much foreign export. Maybe the entries are in the logs and coded some how . I had been trying to track the ownership/provence of a semi concert grand that is in Peru. It seems that it went to a party in Newburyport Mass and back to Chickering in Boston and perhaps shipped from there. Chickering shipped pianos all over the world and first did so to India. I often wonder what the fate of these instruments was if they survived moisture, cold, heat, humiity, insects, rodents. Periodically people track me down because of my interests in Chickering & Sons and I wish I could get more input from PTG members. I have had inquiries from owners in Italy and the Netherlands as well as England




  • 14.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-27-2017 22:20
    Found this gem from the aforementioned website regarding Chickering and Mackay.

    John Mackay was lost at sea in 1841,

    so far so good.

    and this loss appears to have ended the partnership between Chickering and William H. Mackay.

    Ya think.




    Chernobieff Piano Restorations

    Chris Chernobieff ( pronounced chur-no-bif )
    Associate Member of the Piano Technicians Guild
    Knoxville, Tennessee
    email: chrisppff@gmail.com
    Follow on:  Facebook
    phone: 865-986-7720








  • 15.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Member
    Posted 07-27-2017 22:37
    its the result of the dummying down of people that type without thinking . its like the stuff on tv for drug lawsuits

    if you or a loved one took this drug and died please call this 1-800-xxx-xxx number you may be entitled to compensation




  • 16.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-28-2017 09:28
    I recently finished some conservation work on a Steinway Square Grand from 1866. In my opinion they can be  great sounding musical instruments when the original strings and hammers are present and in good enough shape to use (which is very rare). Any strings that broke while tuning I tie off. I think so many techs nowadays have an obession with "perfect" engineering that they have a difficult time realizing that square grands do in fact have a very inspiring, beautiful musical sound that is characteristic of the Stephen Foster and ragtime sound of mid to late 19th century america. While the repetition isn't great, most music can be played just fine on a square that is properly regulated, and their sound has character, is unique, warm, and really quite beautiful....Characteristics that can be quite difficult to find in a piano nowadays.  The wire is an issue though because mid 19th century squares used cast steel wire and later ones used a milder, lower carbon steel than today.  This older wire is more flexible nd easier for a smaller hammer to move. 



    --
    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." -Romans 1:16





  • 17.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Member
    Posted 07-28-2017 13:18
    Hey another tech send me something regarding squares which re-affirms what I said. At the time they existed they were the instrument that was used. There are lots of techs that will trash talk this or that and many don't even have their history right. That is part of the reason I am doing so much research to set the record straight. We need to study some of the work done by those who had no computers but had genius. Its true that Chickering & Sons had various combination of parts and flanges but poor Jonas gets blamed for far too much. In addition he died before the big factory was built at 791 Tremont. The ideas , innovations, experiments either came from the sons but more likely from his long term, loyal and gifted employees. I feel we should not be trashing them but honoring them.

    BTW in looking through more PRESTO and MTR issues I saw something about Brambach and the fact that they had vertical "air holes" in the beams on grands to circulate air and provide better sound. Not sure if that is a real thing or some made up marketing theory to attract buyers. I find it very informative to spend the time reading this stuff and would love to have all of the scanned stuff in hard copy. I like books...




  • 18.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2017 12:18

    Hi, all:


    Here is something from experience.  I am almost 60 now, and I learned about squares at my father's knee, literally.  He was a very capable technician, and at one time was fascinated by squares.  I later became an RPT, and I have rebuilt squares- replaced bridges, replaced a block, hung hammers, done dampers, etc & etc.


    Cut to the chase- if you do ANYTHING to a square, have a form ready for the customer to sign.  It should read like this:  "I understand I will be paying for a professional's time, and the outcome will be disappointing.  No matter how much time the professional spends on the square piano (there is nothing grand about it) the piano will beinadequate musically and mechanically.  Square pianos are beautifully made yet have serious design flaws that cannot be overcome.  Using a square piano will result in frustration of the player, as the action will not repeat unless the key is all the way up.  Add to that the unreliability of the jack springs and their silk cords, and the minuscule clearance between hammers, and the faulty dampers, and the unsupported front edge of the soundboard..."  And so on.


    No matter how much you warn the customer about the dubious outcome, the custoimer will forget the lecture.   Therefore you need some paperwork to CYA.


    David Hagberg, RPT (Retired)







  • 19.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Member
    Posted 07-28-2017 12:54
    Paul .. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS INFO IT IS A FASCINATING TOPIC. WHEN I TUNED THE CHICKERING GRAND IT HAD HAD A435 INTERNATIONAL PITCH STAMPED ON THE PLATE. I HAVE SEEN THAT ON SEVERAL GRANDS BUT HAVE NOT HAD A PROBLEM GOING TO A440 READING ABOUT BROKEN PLATES IT SEEMS MOST BREAK BECAUSE OF A FLAW IN THE STRUT, GETTING DROPPED, POOR CASTING ETC. FROM WHAT I READ THEY ARE OVER ENGINEERED AND CAN WITHSTAND THE EXTRA TENSION. I DONT KNOW EMOUGH ABOUT SQUARES FROM THE ERA THIS PIANO CAME FROM. I DO KNOW THAT VOSE WAS ONE OF THE BETTER BOSTON BUILDERS AND IN FACT HAD A HUGE FACTORY ON MASSACHUSETTS AVENUE IN BOSTON. THIS PIANO AS IS SOUNDS VERY GOOD. I BELIEVE IT HAS MODERN STRINGS ON IT AND PROBABLY WAS RESCALED. THE HISTORY OF IT IS A MYSTERY RIGHT NOW SINCE NONE OF THE TECHS I KNOW HAVE WORKED ON IT.




  • 20.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-28-2017 13:37

    One clue to the structural integrity of a square is to see if all 4 legs sit on a flat floor.  They probably don't- the tension distorts the structure and pulls the left rear leg up.  As I said, and apparently irritated a few people in the process, squares have problems that make them impractical.  I have seen may squares that were so distorted the rim pulled off of the base, and there is a big crack on the rear left hand corner.  I suppose one could bolt diagonal steel bars underneath and try to stabilize the distortion, but I would say that problem would be irreversible damage.  I have tried bolts through the base and into the rim to try to pull it back together, with little success.  


    Here is my main point- using a square piano as a primary musical instrument is like using a 1904 curved dash Oldsmobile for everyday transportation.


    David Hagberg








  • 21.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-28-2017 14:31
    Square Grands have the distinct advantage of stacking nicely, for a pyramid shaped bonfire. Try doing THAT with your traditional harp-shaped grands or upright pianos! They simply fall short every time ... ( and If I'm not mistaken, Steinway proved the validity of this wonderful square grand characteristic without a shadow of a doubt, when they cleaned out their warerooms of all the on-hand NOS Square Grand inventory and square grand dealer trade-ins at a huge bonfire display on Coney Island over a century ago). Ergo, those who think that square grands are good for nothing ... must be wrong.


    Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone





  • 22.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-29-2017 17:45
    The great square bonfire was a PR gimmick that went wrong.
    People have an innate love of musical instruments, and the public saw it as a crass destruction of beautiful instruments which might have found new homes.
    This may seem like maudlin romanticism, but it is that same need for beauty that leads people to pay us to tune their pianos. 
    We need to be gentle when we tell a customer that it's time to put down their loved instrument.
    By the way, if you think of a square grand as a kind of keyboard harp, you might begin to hear the magic.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2017 18:11
    It is wise to bear in mind that in the US until about 1860, piano meant square piano for almost everybody. There were next to no uprights, and grands were a very small part of the market. Chickering was an American pioneer in manufacturing upright pianos like those that had been the norm in Europe for decades, and the Chickering upright debuted in about 1858. Squares and uprights coexisted for the next several decades.

    In complaining about the square piano action, we need to remember we are talking about 150+ year old instruments. Yes, those threads attaching the jacks to the strings tend to break, but they lasted a lot longer than those of many a modern Yamaha upright. When bidding a job, you need to replace them all, no question (and check for whether the springs are also likely to break). The action is simple, and fairly easy to regulate, if you know how. Single escapement jack action was the norm for almost all grand pianos through the late 19th century, with the modern double escapement only becoming universal in the 20th century.

    Chopin played on such an action. Think about that before disparaging it. Remember that hammers were lighter, key dip was shallower, and the action was much more facile to play. The modern piano requires much more athleticism, where the 19th century piano relied more on finesse and subtle skills. It wasn't a problem to need to let the key rise all the way, since the fingers were moving less distance, and propelling less mass.

    It is certainly true that many people who purchase a square have unrealistic expectations, especially in thinking that for a few hundred dollars it can be made to work reliably. However, assuming a reasonably solid structure, a square that is fully restored can be a much more than tolerable musical instrument. It will not have the power of the modern grand, but then who needs that power in the living room of a home?

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 09:37

    Fred:


    A "fully restored square" is going to be an extremely expensive proposition.  Just replacing all of those silk cords and jack springs is just a drop in the bucket.  No, those actions are not easily regulated- the key rocker screw access is very limited, and add to that, the screw heads sometimes split in half.  And dd to THAT, the key rockers won't stay in regulation very long anyway, unless the piano is in a carefully controlled climate environment.  That adds to the money, too.


     Hanging a set of new hammers is VERY time consuming, and those hammers will not be exactly like the originals.  And original hammers WILL NOT sound like they did when they were new, no matter how well the piano was preserved.  And music wire deteriorates, too- the elasticity is long gone by this time, and modern wire is not exactly the same.


    I like antiques as well as the next person (I have one car that is 100 years old, another that is 80, another that is 70, and I use them, and I heated my house for 25 years with a 100+ year old coal stove, and all the clocks in my house have pendulums) but I have to draw the line at squares.  I had one I restored in my livingroom for a while (I was a music major) but it was not practical.  If you can find a customer who will want a restoration, that's great- but as I said, have them sign a paper where they agree the result is likely to be unsatisfactory.


    DH






  • 25.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-30-2017 10:52
    I worked for an unappreciative fella once restoring squares. On one square in particular, not only were the jack threads deteriorated and needed to be replaced, but so we're the springs they were attached to. Not so easy to make all those little springs right, and getting a consistent speed of repetition was tricky. Even more so under foul conditions.







     





  • 26.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2017 15:14
    No question fully restoring a square piano is a challenge. It is always possible that you might, for instance, need to replace all the rocker screws, re-cover the butts with new leather, a lot of steps we aren't used to. Still, these steps, while labor intensive, may cost considerably less in time and materials than a set of shanks and wippens for a modern grand. 

    Rather than replace hammers, re-covering is a better option, and that requires skills most of us don't have. Felt and leather for the purpose is available, though not from your US piano supplier (Jurgen at pianoforte supply sells good hammer covering felt - think layers, not one piece done in a press as in modern hammers), and we can all stand to learn how to sharpen knives so as to trim them successfully.

    Re-stringing should be done with an appropriate wire, but there are a few out there that will match the original sound pretty well, principally those made by Paulello and Stephen Birkett (P-Wire, contact at stephen@fortepianos.com).

    I'm not advocating for everybody to jump into square piano restoration, any more than you should jump into pneumatic player restoration. The skill sets are different and there is a big learning curve. But if you have the skills, a decent restoration is definitely a viable option for many instruments. 

    I strongly suggest checking out the website of Tom Strange, who has specialized in this area. http://www.squarepianotech.com Lots of good information there (though he specializes in the earlier instruments, mostly pre-1850).

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-30-2017 16:58
    Good input Fred. Rational and objective.

    --
    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." -Romans 1:16





  • 28.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2017 14:41
    I know a few professionals that use a square as their primary instrument.  There are even those who prefer them.  I don't think ragtime, I think Beethoven.  Have you heard any 1808 - 1820 Broadwood grands?
    --
                      





  • 29.  RE: Tuning Square Grands

    Posted 07-29-2017 17:21
    Stephen Foster 1826-1864. Scott Joplin 1868-1917.  Both of Stephen Foster's square grand pianos are here in Pittsburgh at the Stephen Foster museum.  One is an 1840s Chickering and Mackays, and the other I believe is an 1850s Chickering.  Early American piano folk music was concieved on squares and square grands, and the square grand sound naturally had a big influence in Scott Joplins musical development, as he was reported to have played, practiced on, and even likely owned one himself. The attachment to the even earlier sound of smaller squares is apparent in square grands, many of which are found with leather coverings from middle C to the top octave. Joplin likely drew on musical influences that came even before his time. The Square grand has an extremely important and neglected history in American music.  Also, burning square grands is burning amazing old growth timber, clear spruce, brazillian rosewood, ebony, and ivory. No opinions here just facts.....except one,...... Beethoven, Mozart, and especially Gottschalk, sound wonderful on them, that is they haven't been rebuilt with incompatible modern materials.

    --
    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." -Romans 1:16