Piano History

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Susan wrote:
"I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either."

You could plane some off the bottom of the pin block (with, maybe, a power planer?), or you could use a low profile belt sander, anchoring your arms on the keybed to apply pressure upwards towards the bottom of the block. Haven't had this problem with Viennese pianos, but have seen more modern iterations with the drop screws either dragging or actually getting hung up. In those cases, makes you wonder what all those who went before were thinking (that is, if they were!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 11:56
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

I would leave the thing alone or you will be sorry. Once you start in on it you own it for better or worse. Find someone that has worked on these monsters before. Every time I have tried to do stuff like this it backfires. I walked away from a birdcage piano job not long ago and did the same thing with a square grand. Ever hear the term "mission creep" ? what starts out as one thing quickly escalates into a tangled web.  the owner will claim it never did that before and you will be spending the rest of your career fretting about it.  As my mentor would say if you like self abuse go for it otherwise decline the mission...

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 12:32
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Susan wrote:
"I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either."

You could plane some off the bottom of the pin block (with, maybe, a power planer?), or you could use a low profile belt sander, anchoring your arms on the keybed to apply pressure upwards towards the bottom of the block. Haven't had this problem with Viennese pianos, but have seen more modern iterations with the drop screws either dragging or actually getting hung up. In those cases, makes you wonder what all those who went before were thinking (that is, if they were!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 11:56
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Susan,

Yes, I have planed (well, actually sanded) the bottom of the pinblock before on modern grands - where the dropscrews were scraping on the bottom of the pinblock. That would be a last resort - it's a pretty thin block. I suppose I could check how deeply the tuning pins go into the pinblock to see how much I can afford to sand/plane/scrape off...

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 11:56
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

In Viennese pianos the pinblock tends to sag and the distal edge rotates down in the middle. The more you shave its bottom, the more it sags. But typically there is plenty of clearance to remove the action after you've removed the shelf beneath it (if so equipped), or pulled the action out enough for the rear of the key frame to drop down from the steep blocks in the back corners of the key bed.

To make reinstalling the action easier, I lubricate those blocks and the bottoms of rear corners of the key frame sides. Sometimes those edges of key frame sides that ride up the blocks are covered with leather and that can be gunked up with grease lube. Cleaning/replacing/lubing may be necessary.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-07-2017 05:46
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Susan,

Yes, I have planed (well, actually sanded) the bottom of the pinblock before on modern grands - where the dropscrews were scraping on the bottom of the pinblock. That would be a last resort - it's a pretty thin block. I suppose I could check how deeply the tuning pins go into the pinblock to see how much I can afford to sand/plane/scrape off...

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 11:56
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

I should have read the whole thread, especially the original post, before assuming things... Unless something is preventing the back of the key frame from dropping all the way down to the keybed, things have probably warped. Hopefully you can bend the checks and push down the rail enough to slide the action out.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-08-2017 07:52
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

In Viennese pianos the pinblock tends to sag and the distal edge rotates down in the middle. The more you shave its bottom, the more it sags. But typically there is plenty of clearance to remove the action after you've removed the shelf beneath it (if so equipped), or pulled the action out enough for the rear of the key frame to drop down from the steep blocks in the back corners of the key bed.

To make reinstalling the action easier, I lubricate those blocks and the bottoms of rear corners of the key frame sides. Sometimes those edges of key frame sides that ride up the blocks are covered with leather and that can be gunked up with grease lube. Cleaning/replacing/lubing may be necessary.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-07-2017 05:46
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Susan,

Yes, I have planed (well, actually sanded) the bottom of the pinblock before on modern grands - where the dropscrews were scraping on the bottom of the pinblock. That would be a last resort - it's a pretty thin block. I suppose I could check how deeply the tuning pins go into the pinblock to see how much I can afford to sand/plane/scrape off...

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 11:56
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

I have not encountered one of these actions but shouldn't there be a wedge or some inclined plane installed to ease the back rail up onto the riser?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-08-2017 08:07
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

I should have read the whole thread, especially the original post, before assuming things... Unless something is preventing the back of the key frame from dropping all the way down to the keybed, things have probably warped. Hopefully you can bend the checks and push down the rail enough to slide the action out.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-08-2017 07:52
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

In Viennese pianos the pinblock tends to sag and the distal edge rotates down in the middle. The more you shave its bottom, the more it sags. But typically there is plenty of clearance to remove the action after you've removed the shelf beneath it (if so equipped), or pulled the action out enough for the rear of the key frame to drop down from the steep blocks in the back corners of the key bed.

To make reinstalling the action easier, I lubricate those blocks and the bottoms of rear corners of the key frame sides. Sometimes those edges of key frame sides that ride up the blocks are covered with leather and that can be gunked up with grease lube. Cleaning/replacing/lubing may be necessary.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-07-2017 05:46
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Susan,

Yes, I have planed (well, actually sanded) the bottom of the pinblock before on modern grands - where the dropscrews were scraping on the bottom of the pinblock. That would be a last resort - it's a pretty thin block. I suppose I could check how deeply the tuning pins go into the pinblock to see how much I can afford to sand/plane/scrape off...

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 11:56
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

No, John.
You just slam them in. It's a little unnerving, but that's the way it is.
Very cool action.
Laura


Original Message------

I have not encountered one of these actions but shouldn't there be a wedge or some inclined plane installed to ease the back rail up onto the riser?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message------

I have not encountered one of these actions but shouldn't there be a wedge or some inclined plane installed to ease the back rail up onto the riser?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

And that inclined plane gets pretty grimy and grungy over the years - so cleaning and lubricating it before reinstalling the action is definitely a good idea. I've worked on these actions off-and-on for 30+ years, but this is the first time I've had trouble getting one out of the piano.

Time for a war story. Years ago in Boston (well, actually Cambridge, MA) I was called to tune for Igor Kipnis performing at the Longy School''s Pickman Hall on an original restored 1797 Graebner 5-octave Viennese action instrument. I was wondering why they called me instead of one of the fortepiano specialists in the Boston area - later I found out that they all refused to work with him and his temper tantrums. Anyway, just before intermission he broke one of the beaks right in the middle of the keyboard - so I had to pull the action (yes, the kind with the tray underneath) and fix it in front of the audience. I guess it wasn't the first time it happened - he had a spare kapsel/hammer assembly with him, so all I had to do was switch it in for the broken one. But to do that I had to take out the key, and whoever restored this instrument put in an aluminum check rail over the keys (originally the hammeres were supposed to check on the back of the wrestplank - not very reliable) . So I had to take that off to make the repair. When reinstalled, of course the checks were out of regulation, so I had to re-regulate them. It was a very long intermission, and the next day's Boston Globe review devoted a few lines to the whole incident. I think the line went something like "at this concert the instrument was as much the star of the show as the performer - and just as temperamental."  Kipnis was rather grateful, and gave me an autographed copy of some works by Daniel Steibelt that he edited - some of which he had performed on this early 19th-century mostly junk music program. But it was fun...

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-08-2017 13:18
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

There is an inclined plane, but it is ridiculously steep in most cases.

Regards,

Fred Sturm

fssturm@unm.edu

www.artoftuning.com

http://fredsturm.net

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein

Original Message------

And that inclined plane gets pretty grimy and grungy over the years - so cleaning and lubricating it before reinstalling the action is definitely a good idea. I've worked on these actions off-and-on for 30+ years, but this is the first time I've had trouble getting one out of the piano.

Time for a war story. Years ago in Boston (well, actually Cambridge, MA) I was called to tune for Igor Kipnis performing at the Longy School''s Pickman Hall on an original restored 1797 Graebner 5-octave Viennese action instrument. I was wondering why they called me instead of one of the fortepiano specialists in the Boston area - later I found out that they all refused to work with him and his temper tantrums. Anyway, just before intermission he broke one of the beaks right in the middle of the keyboard - so I had to pull the action (yes, the kind with the tray underneath) and fix it in front of the audience. I guess it wasn't the first time it happened - he had a spare kapsel/hammer assembly with him, so all I had to do was switch it in for the broken one. But to do that I had to take out the key, and whoever restored this instrument put in an aluminum check rail over the keys (originally the hammeres were supposed to check on the back of the wrestplank - not very reliable) . So I had to take that off to make the repair. When reinstalled, of course the checks were out of regulation, so I had to re-regulate them. It was a very long intermission, and the next day's Boston Globe review devoted a few lines to the whole incident. I think the line went something like "at this concert the instrument was as much the star of the show as the performer - and just as temperamental."  Kipnis was rather grateful, and gave me an autographed copy of some works by Daniel Steibelt that he edited - some of which he had performed on this early 19th-century mostly junk music program. But it was fun...

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Aha! 

Bend the checks towards me to create enough clearance to pull the action! Then bend them back into original position after the action is back in the piano... Seems laborious, but I think I prefer that to shaving the wrestplank - it's pretty thin to begin with... Thanks, Mario.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-08-2017 08:07
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

I should have read the whole thread, especially the original post, before assuming things... Unless something is preventing the back of the key frame from dropping all the way down to the keybed, things have probably warped. Hopefully you can bend the checks and push down the rail enough to slide the action out.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-08-2017 07:52
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

In Viennese pianos the pinblock tends to sag and the distal edge rotates down in the middle. The more you shave its bottom, the more it sags. But typically there is plenty of clearance to remove the action after you've removed the shelf beneath it (if so equipped), or pulled the action out enough for the rear of the key frame to drop down from the steep blocks in the back corners of the key bed.

To make reinstalling the action easier, I lubricate those blocks and the bottoms of rear corners of the key frame sides. Sometimes those edges of key frame sides that ride up the blocks are covered with leather and that can be gunked up with grease lube. Cleaning/replacing/lubing may be necessary.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-07-2017 05:46
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Susan,

Yes, I have planed (well, actually sanded) the bottom of the pinblock before on modern grands - where the dropscrews were scraping on the bottom of the pinblock. That would be a last resort - it's a pretty thin block. I suppose I could check how deeply the tuning pins go into the pinblock to see how much I can afford to sand/plane/scrape off...

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 11:56
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Oh, have FUN.

Back in the 1980's I used to work on these. A shop selling antique clocks was carrying them. The owner would go to Austria, buy fancy clocks, and also bring in a few Viennese grands which she'd pick up cheap. Of course, not being a piano person, she'd not know the danger signs to look for. I'd fiddle with them and get them more or less in tune with all the notes working and any broken wire replaced, in her customer's houses. It was fun, in a pretty strenuous way. I learned, for instance, how much repeated tuning was necessary to stabilize treble notes with those huge long, LONG waste lengths.

One day I looked at one she still had in the store. The damper lifter thingies were out of line, and I attempted to get the action out to straighten them up. Heck, I DID get the action out to straighten them up! Despite the case having warped, not leaving room enough for the action to pass. I forced it out. I sweat bullets till I had it forced back in again. Then I managed to regulate the crooked damper lifters, which were worse than when i started, through the strings.

The golden part of this struggle is that the horrified owner, having watched me do all this, never imported a Viennese grand again.

No, your concerns are very well-founded. Advice? Either explain that getting this thing working is beyond your skillset, due to the case having warped, or try to get it working without removing the action. It's quite possible that the case has warped more since the action was forced out the last time. I don't suppose you could plane a little bit off the bottom of the pinblock in the worst places? Well, I don't think I would try that either.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Great idea, Ed. By the way, she got a demonstration of the amount of violence it took to get the action back into playing position. We had to recruit neighbors to hold the piano still and to help me push it all the way up - I couldn't do it by myself from half-way-out position (not enough distance to build up momentum, I suppose...)


------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 15:16
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Hello,

Got back to that piano today and - yes, Ed, your guess was right on target. I bent the backchecks towards me per Mario's suggestion. Ended up having to bend all the bass and half the midrange backchecks - the backcheck wire is quite short, so the only tool that fit under the backchecks was an upright damper wire bender. Got the backchecks to squeeze under the wrestplank, with lots of downward pressure on the checkrail, and after about an inch of laborious forward movement the action dropped down some more, and came out freely. Found an 11 mm. brass cube on the bass end of the keybed that was stuck under the keyframe and wedged the bass end upward. Nobody had any idea what it was - probably some kid dropped it between the strings and it found a home under the action. Of course, when the action is up on the diagonal rails in playing position, there is plenty room for something to roll under there... 

All this to splice a broken shank and rehang a hammer...

While the glue was drying, I cleaned the keybed, graphited the diagonal rails and re-regulated the backchecks. The action went back in without any problems...Nothing wrong with that case after all.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 15:16
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out?
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Israel, thanks for the follow up.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2017 11:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Hello,

Got back to that piano today and - yes, Ed, your guess was right on target. I bent the backchecks towards me per Mario's suggestion. Ended up having to bend all the bass and half the midrange backchecks - the backcheck wire is quite short, so the only tool that fit under the backchecks was an upright damper wire bender. Got the backchecks to squeeze under the wrestplank, with lots of downward pressure on the checkrail, and after about an inch of laborious forward movement the action dropped down some more, and came out freely. Found an 11 mm. brass cube on the bass end of the keybed that was stuck under the keyframe and wedged the bass end upward. Nobody had any idea what it was - probably some kid dropped it between the strings and it found a home under the action. Of course, when the action is up on the diagonal rails in playing position, there is plenty room for something to roll under there...

All this to splice a broken shank and rehang a hammer...

While the glue was drying, I cleaned the keybed, graphited the diagonal rails and re-regulated the backchecks. The action went back in without any problems...Nothing wrong with that case after all.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 15:16
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out?
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

What a wonderful happy ending! Remove foreign object, case is still perfect.

It was worth all the fuss to get that cube out of there. Now if anything else breaks, the piano can be serviced.

Besides, there's the thrill of the chase, and the "AHA" moment, and you've given the owner an excellent story to narrate.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2017 11:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Hello,

Got back to that piano today and - yes, Ed, your guess was right on target. I bent the backchecks towards me per Mario's suggestion. Ended up having to bend all the bass and half the midrange backchecks - the backcheck wire is quite short, so the only tool that fit under the backchecks was an upright damper wire bender. Got the backchecks to squeeze under the wrestplank, with lots of downward pressure on the checkrail, and after about an inch of laborious forward movement the action dropped down some more, and came out freely. Found an 11 mm. brass cube on the bass end of the keybed that was stuck under the keyframe and wedged the bass end upward. Nobody had any idea what it was - probably some kid dropped it between the strings and it found a home under the action. Of course, when the action is up on the diagonal rails in playing position, there is plenty room for something to roll under there...

All this to splice a broken shank and rehang a hammer...

While the glue was drying, I cleaned the keybed, graphited the diagonal rails and re-regulated the backchecks. The action went back in without any problems...Nothing wrong with that case after all.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 15:16
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out?
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

...not to mention that she was ecstatic to get her G-5 back...  We love happy endings.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2017 15:23
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

What a wonderful happy ending! Remove foreign object, case is still perfect.

It was worth all the fuss to get that cube out of there. Now if anything else breaks, the piano can be serviced.

Besides, there's the thrill of the chase, and the "AHA" moment, and you've given the owner an excellent story to narrate.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2017 11:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Hello,

Got back to that piano today and - yes, Ed, your guess was right on target. I bent the backchecks towards me per Mario's suggestion. Ended up having to bend all the bass and half the midrange backchecks - the backcheck wire is quite short, so the only tool that fit under the backchecks was an upright damper wire bender. Got the backchecks to squeeze under the wrestplank, with lots of downward pressure on the checkrail, and after about an inch of laborious forward movement the action dropped down some more, and came out freely. Found an 11 mm. brass cube on the bass end of the keybed that was stuck under the keyframe and wedged the bass end upward. Nobody had any idea what it was - probably some kid dropped it between the strings and it found a home under the action. Of course, when the action is up on the diagonal rails in playing position, there is plenty room for something to roll under there...

All this to splice a broken shank and rehang a hammer...

While the glue was drying, I cleaned the keybed, graphited the diagonal rails and re-regulated the backchecks. The action went back in without any problems...Nothing wrong with that case after all.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 15:16
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out?
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

G5 is a lovely note. All pianos are better off if G5 works ... <grin>

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-09-2017 04:49
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

...not to mention that she was ecstatic to get her G-5 back...  We love happy endings.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2017 15:23
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

What a wonderful happy ending! Remove foreign object, case is still perfect.

It was worth all the fuss to get that cube out of there. Now if anything else breaks, the piano can be serviced.

Besides, there's the thrill of the chase, and the "AHA" moment, and you've given the owner an excellent story to narrate.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2017 11:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Hello,

Got back to that piano today and - yes, Ed, your guess was right on target. I bent the backchecks towards me per Mario's suggestion. Ended up having to bend all the bass and half the midrange backchecks - the backcheck wire is quite short, so the only tool that fit under the backchecks was an upright damper wire bender. Got the backchecks to squeeze under the wrestplank, with lots of downward pressure on the checkrail, and after about an inch of laborious forward movement the action dropped down some more, and came out freely. Found an 11 mm. brass cube on the bass end of the keybed that was stuck under the keyframe and wedged the bass end upward. Nobody had any idea what it was - probably some kid dropped it between the strings and it found a home under the action. Of course, when the action is up on the diagonal rails in playing position, there is plenty room for something to roll under there...

All this to splice a broken shank and rehang a hammer...

While the glue was drying, I cleaned the keybed, graphited the diagonal rails and re-regulated the backchecks. The action went back in without any problems...Nothing wrong with that case after all.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 15:16
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out?
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

Couldn't live without G5.

<g>


Original Message------

G5 is a lovely note. All pianos are better off if G5 works ... <grin>

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Glad it worked out.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2017 11:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Hello,

Got back to that piano today and - yes, Ed, your guess was right on target. I bent the backchecks towards me per Mario's suggestion. Ended up having to bend all the bass and half the midrange backchecks - the backcheck wire is quite short, so the only tool that fit under the backchecks was an upright damper wire bender. Got the backchecks to squeeze under the wrestplank, with lots of downward pressure on the checkrail, and after about an inch of laborious forward movement the action dropped down some more, and came out freely. Found an 11 mm. brass cube on the bass end of the keybed that was stuck under the keyframe and wedged the bass end upward. Nobody had any idea what it was - probably some kid dropped it between the strings and it found a home under the action. Of course, when the action is up on the diagonal rails in playing position, there is plenty room for something to roll under there...

All this to splice a broken shank and rehang a hammer...

While the glue was drying, I cleaned the keybed, graphited the diagonal rails and re-regulated the backchecks. The action went back in without any problems...Nothing wrong with that case after all.

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 15:16
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

Israel-
Just a guess. Something may be on the keybed on the bass side, holding up the action frame.
Has the piano been moved (turned on its spine) since the last time the action was pulled.
You know it takes quite a slam to push these actions back in and up the ramps, which may account for her memories of violence.
Is there some way you can get a look into the action cavity. to see if the keybed is clear? Maybe with the action in place you can pry up the front rail a little and shine a light underneath?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out?
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

One possible explanation may be  that one of the small shelves that hold the action and it's working  position has fallen out of place  by coming unglued from the rear of the key bed  and is now underneath the action in it's current position.  If this be the case it could be difficult to extract

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------

On more than one occasion I have removed 1 mm or more from the bottom of a portion of pinblock using a chisel (for clearance of drop screws usually). It isn't fun, but it can be done, and doesn't take all that long if your chisel is sharp. Compared to consigning a piano to the junk heap because you can't remove the keyframe action assembly to fix something, a pretty minor concession to practicality.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-07-2017 12:31
From: Frank French
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

One possible explanation may be  that one of the small shelves that hold the action and it's working  position has fallen out of place  by coming unglued from the rear of the key bed  and is now underneath the action in it's current position.  If this be the case it could be difficult to extract

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-06-2017 10:59
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Viennese Action clearance under wrestplank/pinblock

To all Viennese action experts,

No good deed shall go unpunished...  Trying to do a shank repair on one of those overgrown late 19th-century Viennese action 85-noters essentially as a favor. Having trouble getting the action out. Once the action drops down from its working position, there is plenty clearance between the pinblock and the back(?)checks in the midrange and the treble, but in the bass they protrude above the bottom of the pinblock. The clip that holds the checkrail in position is pretty loose, so I have to hold the rail down by hand - but even in the lowest position to which I can force it there still is about a millimeter's overlap between the top of the backchecks and the bottom of the pinblock. I am afraid to force the action out - as the backchecks (frontchecks?) could be forced into the hammers and break lots of them (of course the wood is old and brittle). I tried to angle the action somehow to get those bass backchecks under the pinblock - but then some hammers start flopping around into dangerous positions. According to the owner, the action had been taken out before, as far as she remembers - by brute force...

Is my concern misplaced? If not:
Has something happened to cause the overlap between pinblock and backchecks since the last time the action was out? 
What could it be and why?
Any suggestions? (other than "leave that thing alone...")

------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
P.O. Box 68141
Jerusalem, Israel 9168002
510-558-0777
istein248@gmail.com
------------------------------