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New vertical hammers blocking

  • 1.  New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 11:59
    I installed new hammer heads on a Yamaha P2 from 1965. This was part of an experiment to see how well I can rebuild practice room pianos instead of replacing them with new ones. Money was especially tight this year. The butts looked usable so I kept them. But now on a herd blow, now and then, hammers will block.

    I removed all the hammers and smoothed a little ridge on each that I thought was the culprit (where the jack had let off a thousand times before). I actually cut it off with an xacto knife. It didn't seem to help. I tried bolstering a few butts with rug yarn and this seems to help but before I go ahead and do all 88 I'd like to hear other peoples experience with this.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 12:03
    My initial thought is that you changed the let off when you shaped the old hammers. With the new, probably little bigger hammers, the let off needs to be adjusted back to what they were initially. In other words, a relatively easy adjustment, instead of a lot of work. 

    Wim





  • 3.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 23:53
    My initial thought agrees with Wim. Check let-off and checking first before attempting any repair work. Those are easy and reversible adjustments that quite possibly will save you a lot of headache and time.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 12:37

    Check key dip.  Maybe too shallow






  • 5.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 12:56
    I regulated the piano. I wouldn't think of replacing hammers without regulating. I can get rid of the blocking by increasing let off but I don't want to reduce dynamic range. With let off at 1/8" it seems there should be no blocking.


    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 12:58

    Most uprights like a little more let-off.  Also, how is hammer checking?






  • 7.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 13:13
    You're right PauI, I may be approaching this vertical with more of a grand ideal in mind. Checking is about 5/8.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 13:10
    Increasing dip actually seems to have the opposite effect. The blocking gets worse. The jack jams the hammer against the string and the front of the key doesn't quite reach the front rail punching.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 13:15
    I seem to remember Bill Spurlock talking about bolstering butts for this purpose.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 15:21
    I think that replacing the entire hammer/shank/butt assembly would be the better way to go on a heavily used practice piano. The cost of the butts is not prohibitive and the Yammie hammers come already shanked. It's a piece of cake. If the hammers were toast the butts get just as much slamming as the hammers. Perhaps on future pianos you might try it. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Posted 04-13-2022 15:50
    Did you re-establish the 47 mm blow distance? With verticals, it's a balancing act between blow distance, Let Off, Check in and key dip.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Member
    Posted 04-13-2022 17:13
    Try shimming the rest rail with a mute using various small degrees of the wedge to change the blow distance. Also check the condition of the hammer return springs to see if there are broken springs or loops. The jack springs could also need replacement. Get some samples to work in each section but also check the position of the letoff rail and where the jacks are making contact. Finally there is a jig you can make that helps get the proper letoff on all the notes. How about lost motion and the jack clearance under the hammer butt ?  I forget the brand of piano I had a similar problem with But I rounded of the string side top o the jacks and replaced the jack springs

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 08:03
    Blow distance is about 45mm. Dip is .400", (slightly deeper than 10mm)

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 19:51
    I think I'd try replacing hammer butt felts before bolstering the butts.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2022 19:58
    Is my nomenclature correct? I was talking about those rectangular pieces of felt that set the jack angle and dampens the sound of returning jacks.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Member
    Posted 04-13-2022 20:03
    Patrick...yep, that's what they're called.
    Deb






  • 17.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Member
    Posted 04-14-2022 00:28
    From experience, I agree with trying out thicker hammer butt felts.

    "Increasing dip actually seems to have the opposite effect. The blocking gets worse. The jack jams the hammer against the string and the front of the key doesn't quite reach the front rail punching."  So might this be because on a hard blow the jack is getting bounced back under the hammer butt?

    I worked on an upright whose hammers had been replaced (before me) and the jack was getting buried too deeply under the hammer butt because the butt felt was too thin, and this was throwing all other regulation off so that one couldn't regulate to spec and have the thing work.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 02:41
    A couple of others recommended checking blow distance.

    I seldom try to set any specific blow distance, rather I set proper key height and dip, then adjust the hammer rest rail and capstains for proper after touch and jack clearance (watching for excess jack movement), then set the best back check for reliable backchecking.

    Typically I shim up the hammer rest rail with the thinnest felt I have available, then re-set capstains and backchecks.

    You may need to "re-engineer" everything.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 08:14
    The idea that the jack is getting too far under the butt sounds right on target. I'm going to try thicker felt on a few. Rounding the back corner of the jack would have the same effect.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Posted 04-14-2022 09:03
    What is the status of checking at the moment that the hammer is blocked after a very hard blow?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 09:15
    Ed,
    The catcher is not contacting the backcheck at the moment of blocking.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 09:09
    Poking those butt felt squares with a voicing needle puffs them right out. My sample note is improved but still won't take the 2mm let off Yamaha specifies for the treble.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 09:50
    Aha! Puffing out the butt felt and...lubricating the jack tips with McLube seems to do the trick.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 09:54
    And I seem to have more power with the closer let off. I learned some things.
    Thanks everybody!

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Posted 04-14-2022 10:21
    On a piano this old, it could be the let off button felt is compacted. Adjusting the let off to accommodate the new hammers most likely changes the ideal position of that indentation - resulting in inconsistent behavior. Replacing one of the let off button felts would be an easy test. Of course, checking and securing the let off rail in general, is a must.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 12:13
    Remember that yamahas specs relate to all new parts. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 12:22
    I changed the let off felt and realigned the rail before installing the hammers.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 12:13
    I feel like let off reduction may help, but also check on the checking capabilities.  Are the back checks or catcher leathers too smooth?  Try roughing each up a bit on a bad note to see what comes of it.  Curious....





  • 29.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 12:29
    On a normal blow checking was at 5/8" or so but on the odd hard blow escapement would not happen, The jack had the hammer pressed against the string and there was space between the catcher and the backcheck. I don't think checking was a factor here.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 16:20

    John, on the blocking note, use your finger to resist the hammer's movement toward the string while you slowly depress the key to let off.  Closely observe how the jack toe is pressing into the let off button felt as the hammer approaches the strings.  Perhaps your replacement felt is too soft. 

    Also look for any deflection of the let off rail when you load the hammer as above.  If the rail and felt appear to be correct, then be sure the jack tip is not digging into a dent or groove in the butt; if that is the case, then add a bit more bolster yarn under the buckskin. 

    Finally, increasing the let off distance (along with all the other associated regulation adjustments) will most certainly cure the problem.  Remember this is a 57+ year old upright practice piano!  Don't expect it to perform like a new/grand instrument.



    ------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    jrhodes@pacifier.com
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2022 16:11
    John,
    The soft punchings thought is intriguing. Is that something you've encountered? The ones on this piano don't seem to be particularly soft. I was able to compare them with ones on a newish P22.

    If the rail deflects, what would that indicate? that the metal supports aren't stout enough?

    Again, the game I'm playing here is to try to get as close to a new as I can for not much outlay. I did my One Weird Trick to to recrown and add impedance to the soundboard. Tried to clean up the string terminations, restrung. Now I'm trying to see what I have to do to get fairly close let off.

    Next time I'll likely go for the new butts, but I would really like to get a handle on exactly what it takes to make it really work well. So, I appreciate all the input.
    I realize this is not normally done!

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Posted 04-15-2022 17:26
    With the work you've done, have you possibly changed the action support posts, thereby changing the angle of the action relative to the string plane? Assuming the action mounts on the keybed have not been moved, this would result in a slightly different relation of the jack tip to the hammer butt at the moment the hammer contacts the string. Enough to block the jack under the hammer butt?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Posted 04-16-2022 19:21
    Ed Sutten has a point regarding action support posts. Also, it might be that there is enough flex in the action and/or keybed to cause problems on a hard blow. If you have not already, go through and tighten every screw related to the action supports. Check the stoutness of the keybed. Just a thought.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice
    Tucson AZ
    520-749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2022 09:05
    These are some interesting ideas. I'll go on and tighten all the screws I can find.

    I don't think I've changed the support posts but It might be worth mentioning that this Yamaha is from back when there were only 2 action support posts instead of 4. Maybe there was a good reason for that change.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2022 09:15
    And does this P22 have clamps that help secure the action bracket to the posts? Are they tight?

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2022 10:07
      |   view attached
    So, we do have this situation





  • 37.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2022 10:11
    I'll glue a bit of ecsaine on this screw to replace the old rubber and adjust it snug against the plate strut.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-18-2022 12:00
    John,
    If you did not remove the plate for stringing, and therefore the action bracket bolts, I wonder how they could have changed? Were you experiencing this blocking with the old hammers as well?

    I don’t know about about modern P2s (are they still made?). Modern U1s only have two support bolts, and seem to operate quite fine with those and the rubber covered bolt that butts against the plate at the tenor/treble strut. I just saw the photo you posted. The rubber is worn off and should be recovered (I’ve used ecsaine with luck.). If the bolt isn’t butting the plate strut, that could certainly cause flex of the action rail on a hard strike. Is it blocking throughout? Or in sections?

    Ain’t it a fun discovery?


    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 39.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-19-2022 09:21
    Joe,
    I didn't remove the plate so I don't think I changed the position of the action bracket bolts. The old hammers didn't block but they probably had a lot of let off so it wasn't a problem.
    P2s were the fore-bearers of P22s. There were even some P1s before them.
    The blocking was throughout but more common in the treble, maybe because I was trying to get closer let off up there. Puffing out the but felt with a needle, Maclubing the jacks and pulling the let off back to about 3 mm took care of the problem. I did get that bolt covered and snug against the plate. I may have helped.

    and Yay for discovery!

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-19-2022 22:18
    John,

    I'm glad you sorted it out.  I had a Sauter recently that I had thought part of a bobbling hammer issue may have related to the jack rest felt being compressed.  Turns out it was something else, but part of my trials included adding a thin square piece of bushing cloth to adjust the jack position. If your puffed up felts compress back, you might consider that as an easier option than replacing the butt felts.  

    I realize it was a silly question about if you removed the plate for stringing- trying to imagine how to string a piano without a plate, ha!

    I believe you mentioned recrowning the board, but I don't recall if you mentioned how? Care to share?

    Joe





  • 41.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2022 16:38
    The soundboard trick...

    I've been removing 10mm of material from the ribs, epoxying in new wood and pressing crown into the board while the epoxy is drying. This is the first vertical I've tried it on.


    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-14-2022 21:28

    1.  The first reason for hammer blocking on uprights is inadequate jack clearance. Just look and see if it's adequate  if it isn't then shorten the blow  by shimming the hammer rest rail and take up the lost motion by regulating the capstans u til you have adequate clearance 

    2.  The second reason is inadequate dip  if the key level has sagged in the middle them relevant them and check #1

    3.  The third reason is because the backchecks are set too close to the catchers and pressing the hammers forward into the strings. If that's the case then regulate checking to pull the hammers away fro the strings in the checked position and then check #1 and #2 



    ​​​

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-17-2022 10:55
    Reconstituting the butt felt squares (puffing them out with a needle) got me the biggest bang for the buck. Lubricating the jacks also helped. I now have about 3 mm of let off and no blocking.

    I learned that the way to test for this intermittent hard blow blocking was to play a hard blow starting with the key a few milometers depressed.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 44.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Posted 04-23-2022 01:27
    The re-crowning is interesting, but i can't help but question its time investment and cost. As a comparison, I can make and install a new board in three days which includes new bridge caps of higher density than the original, improving the engineering for maximum weight strength ratio, plus I now use Norway Spruce which is specifically harvested for soundboards.
    On old boards, if a customer wants to keep it, as long as it has a minimal crown and can accept a 0 to half a degree downbearing without wanting to "clamp", i've had success with just applying epoxy to the panel after forcing the board up a little and drying. The real challenge came with an old soundboard made with cedar and the process held and made an obvious improvement. All of this is super cheap to do, so it again because cost effective and a viable alternative for some folks.
    When a board is excessively cracked and is reverse crowned, a new board is just the way to go IMO when a customer wants to keep a specific piano.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key"
    865-986-7720 (text only please)
    ------------------------------



  • 45.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-25-2022 11:44
    Chris,
    Cost for this process is minimal. Time investment is up for debate. It's good to hear a vote of confidence for drying, forcing crown and epoxying the top of the board. I'll probably try that on the next vertical. I admire your new soundboard skills. Three days sounds pretty fast!

    Of course a big difference here is that I'm not working for customers. I'm trying to improve the pianos at an institution and do it as frugally as I can. The building with most of the pianos has humidity control so I have more time than a lot of university techs, time to try out my crazy ideas and see how they turn out.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Posted 06-02-2022 10:38
    Hi, John. Last week I ran into an old P22 style piano (there was no model designation on the plate) and I thought of your post. This piano suffered the same symptoms you described: With a tight letoff, the hammer would hang at top dead center. increasing the letoff allowed the hammer to drop back down - assisted by gravity. Turns out, the spring cords on the butt flanges were broke. Just sayin'. I don't recall this being mentioned in the replies.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice RPT
    Tucson AZ
    (520) 749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: New vertical hammers blocking

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2022 15:38

    John,
    I don't recall if this was suggested in a previous post, but I just encountered a P 22 yesterday with the same problem. It turns out that the problem was loose hanger forks of the let off rail. On a hard blow the shank of the fork will lift up making let off closer to the string, and causing blocking on a hard blow. I have seen this on more recent U1s as well. I'm sure there are many solutions, the one I have used a few times is to drip CA glue into the screw hole and hopefully it will wick around the threads that are loose which causes the lost motion (looseness) in the let off rail. I did this on both sides of the action rail.  



    ------------------------------
    Joe Wiencek

    New York NY
    ------------------------------