Probably because the grazing is a slower event. The hammer is pushing the string to the side, and in its upwards motion, experiences the the string only as a constant friction "brake". Quite different from the short event of the hammer hitting the strings square-on (as with a brick wall). The longer the duration, the greater a chance that it will start its cycle half-way through the C&RH strings' cycle. In any case, the time lag which creates the phase shift has to be shorten than the period of the strings hit by the hammer.
Probably U of Ottowa had a claim on these videos, or Steinway bought them.
Hear Here. Can't have hammer center pinning too loose or DGR bushings too sloppy. Thanks much for the videos. The unichord bass damper sure gets knocked around by the string. The other interesting thing, in the bichord damper, is that the two strings are out of phase. These are hit by the same hammer and are connected to the same frame (plate&board).
BTW, thanks Fred for showing that a hammer space to get hit in the U.C. can have a gradient. A revelation.
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
Original Message:
Sent: 12-17-2021 11:36
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
Bill,
There will be a point where the edge of the hammer (which is not entirely precise) will graze the curved part of the string as opposed to its center. This is where the blow becomes unmated.
This is also the point you will reach when spacing as I described, adjusting so that each left string gives a ghost tone. It is being driven/brushed by the ill-defined edge of the hammer striking away from the very bottom of the wire.
With respect to the damper descending, it is important to realize what happens in "microtime" as revealed by high speed videography. Stephen Birkett posted videos many years ago that show the bouncy relationship between damper and wire when viewed millisecond by millisecond. His former website seems to have disappeared, unfortunately.
I downloaded and archived some of his videos.
Here is one,
here is another, both bass strings (he didn't do a treble with flats). They are in my Dropbox, and you will need a viewer to see them. I use VLC Media Player.
I believe the bounciness is best reduced by following the Steinway protocol of leaning the wire against one or the other side of the bushing, with a controlled pressure, as opposed to centering it in the bushing, and that this will give the best damping assuming level strings and precise alignment of the damper head and felt to the strings.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
"The cure for boredom is curiosity, and there is no cure for curiosity." Dorothy Parker
Original Message:
Sent: 12/17/2021 8:11:00 AM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
Fred Sturm went:
Essentially what you get is an unmated sound, as the left string is struck after the right two strings.
If the shift is such that the LH will always give hit, and if the string-to-hammer mating is correct, that string's waveform will be a mate to the other two. If the shift misses the LH string (then, activated by the bridge), the calculation of phase shift which the damper has to deal with on the way down has one wild card: the speed with which the damper descends. Just wanting to add a few last crumbs to this discussion as it fades out.
This can be verified and the scenario created by inserting card stock of the appropriate size between the keyframe and the left stop, as one does when aligning the hammer so as to have them all shift off the string simultaneously. In this technique (I forget who I first learned it from), the fine alignment of the hammer is done by ear, using a flange tool. The hammer is adjusted so that it just makes a ghost sound on the left string, with the right two strings muted by a wedge.
"This can be determined by selecting the numbered drill bit which, when placed between the bass key block and the keyframe, will yield the greatest number of hammers ready to jump." (PTJ Aug 1990, p.16) (Numbered transfer punches are longer, BTW.)
My thanks to Fred and Kathy for a great discussion (a wider one than I had imagined).
------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107
"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
Original Message:
Sent: 12-16-2021 11:26
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
Talking about adjustment of the una corda is not really off topic, as the thread is about is damper function specifically with una corda.
With respect to the point(s) in shift where the edge of the hammer strikes the left string (it is a range of points), the Steinway lacquer issue (sharp corners) is a particularly noticeable one, but it is problematic for non-lacquered hammers as well. Essentially what you get is an unmated sound, as the left string is struck after the right two strings.
This can be verified and the scenario created by inserting card stock of the appropriate size between the keyframe and the left stop, as one does when aligning the hammer so as to have them all shift off the string simultaneously. In this technique (I forget who I first learned it from), the fine alignment of the hammer is done by ear, using a flange tool. The hammer is adjusted so that it just makes a ghost sound on the left string, with the right two strings muted by a wedge.
Having done this, play some notes and chords with everything still in place. Depress the shift pedal and play again. Remove the card stock and play again. Compare the sounds.
The out of phase that is the basis for the unmated sound is also the basis for the oink in question in this thread. It can be an out of phase caused by sympathetic vibration of the left string (when it hasn't been struck, UC pedal fully depressed) or by the left string being partially struck (UC depressed so the left edge of the hammer grazes the left string).
Montal, writing in 1865, disparaged the una corda in no uncertain terms, and substituted an invention of his own, the "expression" pedal, which moved the hammers closer to the strings while compensating with the keys (no lost motion).
Personally, I love the una corda pedal as a pianist if, and only if, the hammers have been crown voiced to make a nice tonal gradient, and if there isn't a point in the travel of the pedal where the left string causes an unmated sound.
Original Message:
Sent: 12/15/2021 7:52:00 PM
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
Hi, Fred,
Some years back, the concert "basement" guys at Steinway told me they usually set new concert pianos up to NOT shift off, maybe while they sort of broke in, with a plan to shift off later on if needed. I really don't know what they've been doing in the last ten years or so. The concert artists aren't so much after a lessening of volume when shifting as they are a change of tone quality. You can get that either way. And heaven help us with all the partial pedaling - then the real fun begins!
I am comfortable doing it either way; sometimes I set it up to not shift off the left side so it's reliable and consistent, and then I can later set up to shift off or not off, knowing what I've got. A big part of setting it up to shift off the string is to break up the sort of crust on the left hammer side at the top, which can form as hardeners maybe seep there and flash off. I don't really chamfer the corner visibly, just knock off any sharp corner or invisible crust with a quick couple of light swipes. That solves some problems and then I can go after the rest of shift voicing with that issue taken off the table.
That's a little off topic for our damper talk, but it all fits together in the big picture.
Great discussion, you've all got me thinking a lot.
Kathy
Original Message:
Sent: 12/15/2021 11:20:00 AM
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
Kathy,
I think your method of addressing the tendency of damper felt to become hard over time is a great one. It is a good interim solution before a more drastic one of removing each damper and either sanding or perhaps peeling a layer on the flats. Which is another interim before replacement of felts.
The out of phase problem can sometimes be solved satisfactorily by making the felt more resilient or by replacing it with new. The experience I was speaking of was an exception, and not a completely isolated one.
I was practicing a particular piece for an upcoming performance and recording session. It involved pushing the limits of pianissimo, una corda coloring, and what is referred to as "half-pedaling" (more accurately 1/32 - 1/8 pedaling or so, having the felts barely in contact with the strings to make a wet-ish sound). In gradually releasing the pedal completely, a very noticeable oink occurred on one note, consistently.
After having no luck with initial troubleshooting, I scheduled an hour or more. I tried everything: adjust upper bends to shift the had farther to the left, making a slight tilt to favor the left string, shifting the lean of the wire from left to right side of the bushing, making the lean more or less positive, adjusting the head to come down front first or back first to varying degrees. (The strings were dead on level already). No luck with any of this.
I finally decided to try aligning the hammer so it didn't miss. Bingo!. No trace of an oink. So I aligned about five neighbors the same way to make it less of a change, and did some crown voicing to even out the sound. Subsequently, when I next did major preps on that and the other D in our recital hall, I adjusted the shift so none of the hammers missed the left string (adjustment made with the stop block on the left side of the action, and then the needed hammer filing and crown voicing work).
A couple years later I heard that Steinway C&A in NYC had switched to no longer shifting off the left string. I wasn't able to learn who initiated the change or why, but I assumed it was partly to avoid the oink phenomenon, partly to avoid the intermediate change in tone when the shift causes the edges of the hammers to touch the left string.
I don't know if Steinway C&A still does this, but I do. I have been happy with the results.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
Original Message:
Sent: 12/14/2021 8:50:00 PM
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
Hi, all, Fred,
Thanks for checking that out, and thanks for pointing out that I didn't make myself very clear.
I am very specifically talking about the oink in the shift position. That's the main thing that gets the topic going; sometimes if you find a noticeable sound in the shift, you can also hear it slightly in the rest position too. Sometimes not so much.
The way I test for oinking sounds pretty quickly is to engage both shift and damper pedals, and play a two-handed set of triads, a couple of big chords, say maybe for example C major. Once the strings are ringing, I leave it shifted and very slowly let the damper pedal come back to rest. Any oinking notes stand out in their chords and you can pick out the worst ones by ear. Maybe with a big C major chord on shift, and slow damper release, I hear the G4 oink worse than the others (it's also a good way to check shut-off timing, but that's a separate issue). Once I hear a problem note, I can check it again individually. If it's bad, it sometimes has a tiny sound in the rest position too, further proof that it's a hard spot in the damper felt and not so much a phase issue. I think dampers, as Bill says, "work-harden" a bit, even if it's just felt fibers. After all, if you lift dampers out of the strings to work on them, you can often see a line where the damper sits against the string. Including flat treble damper felt.
I go after individual notes in that way, moving from chord to chord until I'm pretty satisfied. If a whole section isn't too good, i'll just go after all the dampers there. I haven't found any harm come from the "massaging" or whatever is going on, so if it gets done on a note that's pretty okay, that doesn't bother me. I mentioned that this lasts several months or even a year in the concert pianos. If I suspect a problem or hear a hint of it in tuning, I'll just do my quick checks after tuning to see.
I hope that's clearer. The older Kawai that taught me that trick is still around. Ownership has changed since and it's now restrung, but I still remember it. At that moment in time, I had nothing to lose so I did what seemed to be drastic measures just then. I didn't have time to remove any dampers and fuss with them, and I was pretty happy to get a result.
Thanks, all,
Kathy
Original Message:
Sent: 12/14/2021 8:13:00 PM
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
Kathy,
I read (reread) your account, and I think you are talking about a different issue, oinking in general rather than the specific type of oink that is associated with una corda, and most especially with the notes around A4 through D5 or so (in my experience). At least I believe this is what Bill Ballard was referring to (he was specific in saying dampers with only flats, and in relation to una corda playing).
I was quite distressed about it because I was playing a piece where I needed to use una corda in one section, and needed to ease off the damper, not shut if off. B4, as I recall, was the particular offender. Right at the end of the easing off came what sounded like the note being played again faintly. I tried everything. It damped beautifully when I didn't use una corda and eased off the damper. The only thing that worked was shifting that hammer so that it didn't miss the left string.
This has recurred to a greater or lesser extent on many occasions, leading me to abandon aligning hammers so they miss the left string as a matter of policy.
Bill,
No, I don't use use alcohol/water to make the felt between the strings softer. I use needles. Specifically (as a rule), #10 or #12 quilting needles, spaced about 1 5 - 2 mm apart (distance between points, that is, leaving a gap about 1 - 1.5 mm between the bodies of the needles). The needles stick out 2.5 - 3 mm. I insert them directly/vertically into the felt at the full pedal position, at 12 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 10 o'clock. I also do an additional insertion starting just to the left of the string groove, and pointing about 45 degrees toward the left. This creates a gradient of softer felt in the very top of the hammer, so that a gradual shift of the una corda pedal will produce a (small) range of color.
The needling is shallow, so you can play in una corda position and get bite, make notes stick out above others. It can also be "erased" if need by by pounding the top of the hammer with the heel of the voicing tool (hammer supported under the tail) and shoe shining with fine paper (1000 grit, or 15 to 30 microns micro finishing film).
Regards,
Fred Sturm
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." Twain
Original Message:
Sent: 12/14/2021 2:13:00 PM
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
I've had quite good luck for a couple of decades with a technique that interested Steve Brady, and he asked me to write a sidebar for his book "Under The Lid". It's in there, if any of you have it. Page 114, I think. I don't really have any experience using the technique on old pianos with rusty strings or really dirty damper felt.
I have described the idea before, and maybe not to this group.. I learned it on an older Kawai 7'4" grand, which had awful oinks coming from both splits and flats. To my amazement, the 80-90% cure lasted over a year, and I've since used it contentedly on mostly Steinway grands. Others around our area have been using it too, after seeing it demonstrated at chapter meetings or tech get-togethers. I have several ways to test quickly for the oinks before a pianist gets annoyed or asks for help.
Especially on my concert instruments, I don't want to ask the pianist to think about it or do anything special. They have enough to think about. I have noticed that, among themselves, when they find an issue with those bad sounds, they tend to let the damper pedal down more quickly instead of a slow shut off. And those particular sounds, unlike others that bother us up close, DO sound awful out in the concert hall, especially when isolated at the end of a quiet, slow pedal release.
Let me know if you can't find the information in Steve's book, or want me to go into it here.
Kathy
Original Message:
Sent: 12/14/2021 1:35:00 PM
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
I fussed with trying to deal with it for years. I finally decided as a matter of policy to go the Bosendorfer route and just shift to softer felt (made softer by the technician, that is). Problem solved, along with other problems (there is that point in the una corda travel where the edge of the hammer is striking the left string, making for a sudden shift in tone quality when someone is trying to make nuance of a range of colors as opposed to using the pedal as an on/off switch).
It is also possible to just align the hammers for the offending notes so they don't miss. It is usually just a few by the treble break. The difference in tone is less noticeable than the oink.
I have only run into this with Steinways. Granted, most of the concert instruments I have worked on with any detail are Ds. Has anyone experienced it with Yamaha, Kawai, Bosey, Bechstein, etc.?
Original Message:
Sent: 12/14/2021 8:07:00 AM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
The phase situation gets discussed often, mainly when it comes to hammer-string fitting. It's entirely possible that, in the mechanical energy's travel 1/4" down the bridge from the C/RH strings pinning to the the LH string's pinning, some phase shift does occur. But there exists the problem that, from note to note, the standing wave's period changes and the 50% phase shift would also change in its time interval. So whatever phase shift is caused by the bridge, its actual "displacement of period" (a fixed quantity) would be modulated by the by that note's frequency (a variable quantity). The oink doesn't seem to vary. And the damper flats would only have trouble damping the LH string waveform's horizontal mode. (Vertical should not be a problem.)
What is clear is that the LH string's amplitude is a fraction of the other two, and thus the damper flats get to it only after they are damped. At that point there would be no out-of-phase situation.
What I'm really looking for is how a pianist can mitigate this, because (unless I'm missing some oldest-trick-in-the-book) we can't. And I do love the sound of the U.C. with the LH string unstruck.
------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107
"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2021 07:16
From: Douglas Mahard
Subject: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
"The oink only occurs when you combine the two strings activated by the hammer and one activated by the bridge. " Could this be caused by the strings out of phase with each other?
Original Message:
Sent: 12/13/2021 4:49:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Pianists' Workaround for U.C. Damper Oink
We all know the damper flats' "oink" sound from a U.C. set up to miss the LH string. There's really nothing a piano tech can do about this, but is there anything a pianist can do to disguise this? Maybe a fast application of the damper (quick release of finger or foot) can shorten this event. Maybe having the sound mostly faded (decayed) before the damping can hide this.
It's clear to me that this is not a matter of the actual damper (flat) felt. Try the following exercise on an oinking note:
1.) Play the net, release it and listen to the sound of the damping (the oink).
2.) play the note and quickly/gently damp the C/RH strings. You are now listening to the LH and its tone quality.
3.) play the note, damp as in 2.) and release the note: no oink in the LH string when it's the only active string
4.) play the note, damp the LH string as in 2.) and release the note: no oink when the C/LH strings are the active ones.
The oink only occurs when you combine the two strings activated by the hammer and one activated by the bridge. Played separately, the LH string and the other two are oink-free
Any ideas? (No, setting the U.C. to hit the LH string is not an answer.)
------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107
"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------