Pianotech

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

John,
Is the wippen rail moveable? It seems you might be able to use wippens with greater flange to jack spread by moving the rail, and if you were to use custom heel heights and positions, you could keep the action ratio. Try different mock setups with different parts, and I’ll bet you’ll find your solution.

It always amazes me that pianos get new parts without even attending to super basic requirements, i.e., bedding the keyframe and even just let alone vacuuming the keyframe, to say nothing of worn key bushings and sloppy balance holes. Some technicians must have an incredibly high tolerances to even be able to “regulate” these actions.

Joe Wiencek


Original Message:
Sent: 1/26/2023 3:25:00 PM
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Thanks Joe,
I've never messed with action spread before. It's a bit scary but you're probably right. That wip rail will have to move.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2023 17:30
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

John,
Is the wippen rail moveable? It seems you might be able to use wippens with greater flange to jack spread by moving the rail, and if you were to use custom heel heights and positions, you could keep the action ratio. Try different mock setups with different parts, and I'll bet you'll find your solution.

It always amazes me that pianos get new parts without even attending to super basic requirements, i.e., bedding the keyframe and even just let alone vacuuming the keyframe, to say nothing of worn key bushings and sloppy balance holes. Some technicians must have an incredibly high tolerances to even be able to "regulate" these actions.

Joe Wiencek


Original Message:
Sent: 1/26/2023 3:25:00 PM
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Hi John- I guess my question is -

Is this a piano that a regular or prominent donor or administrator is involved with and you must take in? Why else bring a piano of this vintage and design into a CAUT environment? Sounds loaded with headaches and built in failures once it actually begins to be used. 

My 0.02-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 15:24
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

My thinking is probably not the norm, but I prefer to rebuild than buy new. It saves the school a lot of money and gives me a lot of interesting work! I don't like to turn away rebuildable pianos and this one was partially completed.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 13:04
From: David Brown
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Hi John- I guess my question is -

Is this a piano that a regular or prominent donor or administrator is involved with and you must take in? Why else bring a piano of this vintage and design into a CAUT environment? Sounds loaded with headaches and built in failures once it actually begins to be used.

My 0.02-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 15:24
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Here's a quick test.
A Ronsen hammer, Bacon felt and light maple moulding, prepped for hanging at middle C, weighed 7.6 grams.
Find a hammer that weighs 7.6 grams and hang it on middle C.
If the touch weight is acceptable, consider that a good sign that you can make this piano play by refurbishing the original parts and hanging light hammers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 15:26
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

My thinking is probably not the norm, but I prefer to rebuild than buy new. It saves the school a lot of money and gives me a lot of interesting work! I don't like to turn away rebuildable pianos and this one was partially completed.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 13:04
From: David Brown
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Hi John- I guess my question is -

Is this a piano that a regular or prominent donor or administrator is involved with and you must take in? Why else bring a piano of this vintage and design into a CAUT environment? Sounds loaded with headaches and built in failures once it actually begins to be used.

My 0.02-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 15:24
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

An action ratio of 6.0 with a knuckle/pin spread of 17mm? How can this be?  Is my math whacked?

What is the relationship of the jack/knuckle? Is it 90 degrees? Or off? 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2023 07:50
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Here's a quick test.
A Ronsen hammer, Bacon felt and light maple moulding, prepped for hanging at middle C, weighed 7.6 grams.
Find a hammer that weighs 7.6 grams and hang it on middle C.
If the touch weight is acceptable, consider that a good sign that you can make this piano play by refurbishing the original parts and hanging light hammers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 15:26
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

My thinking is probably not the norm, but I prefer to rebuild than buy new. It saves the school a lot of money and gives me a lot of interesting work! I don't like to turn away rebuildable pianos and this one was partially completed.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 13:04
From: David Brown
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Hi John- I guess my question is -

Is this a piano that a regular or prominent donor or administrator is involved with and you must take in? Why else bring a piano of this vintage and design into a CAUT environment? Sounds loaded with headaches and built in failures once it actually begins to be used.

My 0.02-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 15:24
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Here are some pics (I hope)

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2023 09:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

An action ratio of 6.0 with a knuckle/pin spread of 17mm? How can this be?  Is my math whacked?

What is the relationship of the jack/knuckle? Is it 90 degrees? Or off?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2023 07:50
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Here's a quick test.
A Ronsen hammer, Bacon felt and light maple moulding, prepped for hanging at middle C, weighed 7.6 grams.
Find a hammer that weighs 7.6 grams and hang it on middle C.
If the touch weight is acceptable, consider that a good sign that you can make this piano play by refurbishing the original parts and hanging light hammers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 15:26
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

My thinking is probably not the norm, but I prefer to rebuild than buy new. It saves the school a lot of money and gives me a lot of interesting work! I don't like to turn away rebuildable pianos and this one was partially completed.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 13:04
From: David Brown
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Hi John- I guess my question is -

Is this a piano that a regular or prominent donor or administrator is involved with and you must take in? Why else bring a piano of this vintage and design into a CAUT environment? Sounds loaded with headaches and built in failures once it actually begins to be used.

My 0.02-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 15:24
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

I was doing a set of hammers on an August Forster grand with a Langer action. The knuckle was at 17mm. and the AR was 6+:1. However, the key ratio was 1.79:1 This is the worst that I have seen but I think this is why the AR was so high. Played just like a 1940's SS with a 15.5 knuckle

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2023 09:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

An action ratio of 6.0 with a knuckle/pin spread of 17mm? How can this be?  Is my math whacked?

What is the relationship of the jack/knuckle? Is it 90 degrees? Or off?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2023 07:50
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Here's a quick test.
A Ronsen hammer, Bacon felt and light maple moulding, prepped for hanging at middle C, weighed 7.6 grams.
Find a hammer that weighs 7.6 grams and hang it on middle C.
If the touch weight is acceptable, consider that a good sign that you can make this piano play by refurbishing the original parts and hanging light hammers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 15:26
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

My thinking is probably not the norm, but I prefer to rebuild than buy new. It saves the school a lot of money and gives me a lot of interesting work! I don't like to turn away rebuildable pianos and this one was partially completed.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 13:04
From: David Brown
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Hi John- I guess my question is -

Is this a piano that a regular or prominent donor or administrator is involved with and you must take in? Why else bring a piano of this vintage and design into a CAUT environment? Sounds loaded with headaches and built in failures once it actually begins to be used.

My 0.02-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 15:24
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Ed,
I did this test:

"Simply mock up a test note for C4 with the FW temporarily weighed off to FW = 27 (Stanwood Medium)
or use FW = 25.5 for a Fandrich/Rhodes emulation. Then determine the SW that yields a 38 Balance Weight."
(D. Stanwood on this forum)

I glued a piece of lead on top of the key to get a front wight of 27 on C4. With that key back in the action a SW of 7.7 got me the 38 balance weight which falls in the "light" range of SW but not off the charts. It's exactly what I hoped for actually. I've lately been converted into the high ratio/light hammer camp (for now anyway).

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2023 07:50
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Here's a quick test.
A Ronsen hammer, Bacon felt and light maple moulding, prepped for hanging at middle C, weighed 7.6 grams.
Find a hammer that weighs 7.6 grams and hang it on middle C.
If the touch weight is acceptable, consider that a good sign that you can make this piano play by refurbishing the original parts and hanging light hammers.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 15:26
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

My thinking is probably not the norm, but I prefer to rebuild than buy new. It saves the school a lot of money and gives me a lot of interesting work! I don't like to turn away rebuildable pianos and this one was partially completed.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2023 13:04
From: David Brown
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

Hi John- I guess my question is -

Is this a piano that a regular or prominent donor or administrator is involved with and you must take in? Why else bring a piano of this vintage and design into a CAUT environment? Sounds loaded with headaches and built in failures once it actually begins to be used.

My 0.02-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2023 15:24
From: John Pope
Subject: 1914 Sohmer

We at the U. of Kentucky have been gifted a 1914 Sohmer grand (with bridge agraffes!)

It was rebuilt, sort of, a few years ago. This rebuilding consisted of refinishing, a new pinblock, strings, soundboard shimming, and new hammer heads that are too heavy and make the piano borderline unplayable. All action parts look to be original (except hammer heads). They didn't even rebush keys or replace damper felt!

I measure the action ratio on C4 to be 6.0. Knuckle distance is 17mm but the measurement from wippen flange to jack flange is...97mm. I would like to rebuild the action with new parts and light hammers, keeping the existing ratio.

 My question is: can such a wip be obtained nowadays or am I looking at refurbishing the existing ones?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------