Pianotech

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

As far as this job, unless you're going to replace ALL the plastic parts, anywhere and everywhere, forget about it.  Been there.  Like those plastic elbows, replace them all if possible.  This is all a lesson in inevitability.  Gluing these back together is absurd because the plastic is going to be crumbly, and as soon as you tighten the screw, it will break again.  There's quite a bit of force from the spring.  The glue joint would be much stronger by orders of magnitude than the parts themselves.

If the client won't agree to full plastic parts replacement, head for the hills and don't look back.  I once had a Knabe spinet that had plastic jacks.  Young and dumb, I made a very conservative estimate.  Long story short, I ended up replacing all the plastic parts, and every flange in the action.  Never again!  I swore that I would never work on a plastic action again unless every plastic part was replaced.  And of course it's never worth doing, considering the piano is long past it's working life.  Don't let the customer's problem become your headache.

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

As far as this job, unless you're going to replace ALL the plastic parts, anywhere and everywhere, forget about it.  Been there.  Like those plastic elbows, replace them all if possible.  This is all a lesson in inevitability.  Gluing these back together is absurd because the plastic is going to be crumbly, and as soon as you tighten the screw, it will break again.  There's quite a bit of force from the spring.  The glue joint would be much stronger by orders of magnitude than the parts themselves.

If the client won't agree to full plastic parts replacement, head for the hills and don't look back.  I once had a Knabe spinet that had plastic jacks.  Young and dumb, I made a very conservative estimate.  Long story short, I ended up replacing all the plastic parts, and every flange in the action.  Never again!  I swore that I would never work on a plastic action again unless every plastic part was replaced.  And of course it's never worth doing, considering the piano is long past it's working life.  Don't let the customer's problem become your headache.

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

As far as this job, unless you're going to replace ALL the plastic parts, anywhere and everywhere, forget about it.  Been there.  Like those plastic elbows, replace them all if possible.  This is all a lesson in inevitability.  Gluing these back together is absurd because the plastic is going to be crumbly, and as soon as you tighten the screw, it will break again.  There's quite a bit of force from the spring.  The glue joint would be much stronger by orders of magnitude than the parts themselves.

If the client won't agree to full plastic parts replacement, head for the hills and don't look back.  I once had a Knabe spinet that had plastic jacks.  Young and dumb, I made a very conservative estimate.  Long story short, I ended up replacing all the plastic parts, and every flange in the action.  Never again!  I swore that I would never work on a plastic action again unless every plastic part was replaced.  And of course it's never worth doing, considering the piano is long past it's working life.  Don't let the customer's problem become your headache.

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Yep, you should be able to replace it with a wooden one, assuming it's the same size and shape. Be careful though! It's very easy to break surrounding plastic parts. Good luck!! 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

This is NOT a fun job. I was faced with exactly the same issue a few years ago on the same vintage Chickering. As pointed out the damper flanges were just the beginning of it. In the final analysis the decision was made to scrap the piano. They were able to acquire a similar Chickering (without plastic) in far better shape for far less than what it would have cost to repair the old. First generation plastic...short lifespan. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

This is NOT a fun job. I was faced with exactly the same issue a few years ago on the same vintage Chickering. As pointed out the damper flanges were just the beginning of it. In the final analysis the decision was made to scrap the piano. They were able to acquire a similar Chickering (without plastic) in far better shape for far less than what it would have cost to repair the old. First generation plastic...short lifespan. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

This is NOT a fun job. I was faced with exactly the same issue a few years ago on the same vintage Chickering. As pointed out the damper flanges were just the beginning of it. In the final analysis the decision was made to scrap the piano. They were able to acquire a similar Chickering (without plastic) in far better shape for far less than what it would have cost to repair the old. First generation plastic...short lifespan. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

I've yet to come across the split rail issue - this is a good heads up! Does the rail split through the damper flange screw holes? I'm trying to picture exactly what the split looks like and where you put the screws to reinforce it. 

Like Joe Wiencek the timing of this thread was good for me as well. The last piano I tuned yesterday was a Gulbransen mini piano. The plastic elbows had been replaced but I looked in there and saw the plastic damper flanges. As far as I could tell none of them had been replaced and were working fine. I was able to point it out to the client and let them know that it should be in their long term plan to upgrade the piano. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 06:05
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Ryan, most (all?) vertical action rails are made with two pieces of wood glued toghether for reasons of grain orientation as the hammer and whippen  flange screws are perpendicular to the damper flage screws. On pianos with compressed actions the glue joint is half-way up the cove that accomodates the damper rod. The split occurs at the glue joint, it is actually a glue failure. When it happens, it starts at the treble end of the rail and works it's way towards the base the more the pedal is used. The tell tales for this problem are a) the dampers don't lift or barely lift off the strings in the treble; b)when you depress the pedal the hammers in the treble rise vertically as the pedal rod is actually flexing the the top part of the rail up and away from the bottom part. Rising vertically=towards the ceiling. I"ll look around for a picture.

>While this generally happens on older (1950's-60's) models, the last one I encountered was an American Baldwin from the early 90's. It was unique in that the damper rod lifted from the left and the split started in the bass.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 10:59
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

I've yet to come across the split rail issue - this is a good heads up! Does the rail split through the damper flange screw holes? I'm trying to picture exactly what the split looks like and where you put the screws to reinforce it. 

Like Joe Wiencek the timing of this thread was good for me as well. The last piano I tuned yesterday was a Gulbransen mini piano. The plastic elbows had been replaced but I looked in there and saw the plastic damper flanges. As far as I could tell none of them had been replaced and were working fine. I was able to point it out to the client and let them know that it should be in their long term plan to upgrade the piano. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 06:05
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Well, I couldn't find my own pictures but found this cross section on the net. Perhaps the rail doesn't need to be laminated if the stock is quarter sawn. 

The blue line is where the glue joint is more or less. The red line is where I put the screws and/or dowels after gluing and clamping as best I can. I haven't seen one that completely separates but have seen them separate all the way down to the beginning of the bass. Some but not all of the dampers and whippens need to be removed. Reinforcement can also be put in on the 'shelf' below the hammer flange but that is a weak point too, I recommend at least a few diagonals be installed too.

(in the diagram "screws or" = "screws or dowels"; "glue=glue joint. That's what I get for trying to do this before the 1st cup of coffee)

Some people take short cuts but this isn't a job one wants to do twice.

Ryan, most (all?) vertical action rails are made with two pieces of wood glued toghether for reasons of grain orientation as the hammer and whippen  flange screws are perpendicular to the damper flage screws. On pianos with compressed actions the glue joint is half-way up the cove that accomodates the damper rod. The split occurs at the glue joint, it is actually a glue failure. When it happens, it starts at the treble end of the rail and works it's way towards the base the more the pedal is used. The tell tales for this problem are a) the dampers don't lift or barely lift off the strings in the treble; b)when you depress the pedal the hammers in the treble rise vertically as the pedal rod is actually flexing the the top part of the rail up and away from the bottom part. Rising vertically=towards the ceiling. I"ll look around for a picture.

>While this generally happens on older (1950's-60's) models, the last one I encountered was an American Baldwin from the early 90's. It was unique in that the damper rod lifted from the left and the split started in the bass.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 10:59
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

I've yet to come across the split rail issue - this is a good heads up! Does the rail split through the damper flange screw holes? I'm trying to picture exactly what the split looks like and where you put the screws to reinforce it. 

Like Joe Wiencek the timing of this thread was good for me as well. The last piano I tuned yesterday was a Gulbransen mini piano. The plastic elbows had been replaced but I looked in there and saw the plastic damper flanges. As far as I could tell none of them had been replaced and were working fine. I was able to point it out to the client and let them know that it should be in their long term plan to upgrade the piano. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 06:05
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Btw, even if the rail doesn't delaminate all the way to the bass, anchor it at that end as well. The glue could fail from the bass sustain rod at a later date. Don't ask me how I know.

Well, I couldn't find my own pictures but found this cross section on the net. Perhaps the rail doesn't need to be laminated if the stock is quarter sawn. 

The blue line is where the glue joint is more or less. The red line is where I put the screws and/or dowels after gluing and clamping as best I can. I haven't seen one that completely separates but have seen them separate all the way down to the beginning of the bass. Some but not all of the dampers and whippens need to be removed. Reinforcement can also be put in on the 'shelf' below the hammer flange but that is a weak point too, I recommend at least a few diagonals be installed too.

(in the diagram "screws or" = "screws or dowels"; "glue=glue joint. That's what I get for trying to do this before the 1st cup of coffee)

Some people take short cuts but this isn't a job one wants to do twice.

Ryan, most (all?) vertical action rails are made with two pieces of wood glued toghether for reasons of grain orientation as the hammer and whippen  flange screws are perpendicular to the damper flage screws. On pianos with compressed actions the glue joint is half-way up the cove that accomodates the damper rod. The split occurs at the glue joint, it is actually a glue failure. When it happens, it starts at the treble end of the rail and works it's way towards the base the more the pedal is used. The tell tales for this problem are a) the dampers don't lift or barely lift off the strings in the treble; b)when you depress the pedal the hammers in the treble rise vertically as the pedal rod is actually flexing the the top part of the rail up and away from the bottom part. Rising vertically=towards the ceiling. I"ll look around for a picture.

>While this generally happens on older (1950's-60's) models, the last one I encountered was an American Baldwin from the early 90's. It was unique in that the damper rod lifted from the left and the split started in the bass.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 10:59
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

I've yet to come across the split rail issue - this is a good heads up! Does the rail split through the damper flange screw holes? I'm trying to picture exactly what the split looks like and where you put the screws to reinforce it. 

Like Joe Wiencek the timing of this thread was good for me as well. The last piano I tuned yesterday was a Gulbransen mini piano. The plastic elbows had been replaced but I looked in there and saw the plastic damper flanges. As far as I could tell none of them had been replaced and were working fine. I was able to point it out to the client and let them know that it should be in their long term plan to upgrade the piano. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 06:05
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Awesome posts, Steven. Thanks for this valuable information. The generosity of this forum is humbling. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 14:19
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Btw, even if the rail doesn't delaminate all the way to the bass, anchor it at that end as well. The glue could fail from the bass sustain rod at a later date. Don't ask me how I know.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 14:16
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Well, I couldn't find my own pictures but found this cross section on the net. Perhaps the rail doesn't need to be laminated if the stock is quarter sawn. 

The blue line is where the glue joint is more or less. The red line is where I put the screws and/or dowels after gluing and clamping as best I can. I haven't seen one that completely separates but have seen them separate all the way down to the beginning of the bass. Some but not all of the dampers and whippens need to be removed. Reinforcement can also be put in on the 'shelf' below the hammer flange but that is a weak point too, I recommend at least a few diagonals be installed too.

(in the diagram "screws or" = "screws or dowels"; "glue=glue joint. That's what I get for trying to do this before the 1st cup of coffee)

Some people take short cuts but this isn't a job one wants to do twice.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 12:30
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Ryan, most (all?) vertical action rails are made with two pieces of wood glued toghether for reasons of grain orientation as the hammer and whippen  flange screws are perpendicular to the damper flage screws. On pianos with compressed actions the glue joint is half-way up the cove that accomodates the damper rod. The split occurs at the glue joint, it is actually a glue failure. When it happens, it starts at the treble end of the rail and works it's way towards the base the more the pedal is used. The tell tales for this problem are a) the dampers don't lift or barely lift off the strings in the treble; b)when you depress the pedal the hammers in the treble rise vertically as the pedal rod is actually flexing the the top part of the rail up and away from the bottom part. Rising vertically=towards the ceiling. I"ll look around for a picture.

>While this generally happens on older (1950's-60's) models, the last one I encountered was an American Baldwin from the early 90's. It was unique in that the damper rod lifted from the left and the split started in the bass.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 10:59
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

I've yet to come across the split rail issue - this is a good heads up! Does the rail split through the damper flange screw holes? I'm trying to picture exactly what the split looks like and where you put the screws to reinforce it. 

Like Joe Wiencek the timing of this thread was good for me as well. The last piano I tuned yesterday was a Gulbransen mini piano. The plastic elbows had been replaced but I looked in there and saw the plastic damper flanges. As far as I could tell none of them had been replaced and were working fine. I was able to point it out to the client and let them know that it should be in their long term plan to upgrade the piano. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 06:05
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Ryan, you're welcome, hopefully I personally won't face this job again, however, I've been mulling this over since it's come to mind and have a few more tips for the job.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 18:22
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Awesome posts, Steven. Thanks for this valuable information. The generosity of this forum is humbling. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 14:19
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Btw, even if the rail doesn't delaminate all the way to the bass, anchor it at that end as well. The glue could fail from the bass sustain rod at a later date. Don't ask me how I know.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 14:16
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Well, I couldn't find my own pictures but found this cross section on the net. Perhaps the rail doesn't need to be laminated if the stock is quarter sawn. 

The blue line is where the glue joint is more or less. The red line is where I put the screws and/or dowels after gluing and clamping as best I can. I haven't seen one that completely separates but have seen them separate all the way down to the beginning of the bass. Some but not all of the dampers and whippens need to be removed. Reinforcement can also be put in on the 'shelf' below the hammer flange but that is a weak point too, I recommend at least a few diagonals be installed too.

(in the diagram "screws or" = "screws or dowels"; "glue=glue joint. That's what I get for trying to do this before the 1st cup of coffee)

Some people take short cuts but this isn't a job one wants to do twice.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 12:30
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Ryan, most (all?) vertical action rails are made with two pieces of wood glued toghether for reasons of grain orientation as the hammer and whippen  flange screws are perpendicular to the damper flage screws. On pianos with compressed actions the glue joint is half-way up the cove that accomodates the damper rod. The split occurs at the glue joint, it is actually a glue failure. When it happens, it starts at the treble end of the rail and works it's way towards the base the more the pedal is used. The tell tales for this problem are a) the dampers don't lift or barely lift off the strings in the treble; b)when you depress the pedal the hammers in the treble rise vertically as the pedal rod is actually flexing the the top part of the rail up and away from the bottom part. Rising vertically=towards the ceiling. I"ll look around for a picture.

>While this generally happens on older (1950's-60's) models, the last one I encountered was an American Baldwin from the early 90's. It was unique in that the damper rod lifted from the left and the split started in the bass.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 10:59
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

I've yet to come across the split rail issue - this is a good heads up! Does the rail split through the damper flange screw holes? I'm trying to picture exactly what the split looks like and where you put the screws to reinforce it. 

Like Joe Wiencek the timing of this thread was good for me as well. The last piano I tuned yesterday was a Gulbransen mini piano. The plastic elbows had been replaced but I looked in there and saw the plastic damper flanges. As far as I could tell none of them had been replaced and were working fine. I was able to point it out to the client and let them know that it should be in their long term plan to upgrade the piano. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 06:05
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

I have an upcoming job where the client said she pounded on the keys after arguing with her husband and now many do not work. There is a good chance there is plastic in the piano but it could be snapped shanks . broken glue joints, jacks etc

I will probably see the piano this week since I put her off until after Easter. Fortunately a friend of her has the key to her house so I will have time alone to check the piano. I may bring a death certificate with me to pronounce the piano as toast

Ryan, you're welcome, hopefully I personally won't face this job again, however, I've been mulling this over since it's come to mind and have a few more tips for the job.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 18:22
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Awesome posts, Steven. Thanks for this valuable information. The generosity of this forum is humbling. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 14:19
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Btw, even if the rail doesn't delaminate all the way to the bass, anchor it at that end as well. The glue could fail from the bass sustain rod at a later date. Don't ask me how I know.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 14:16
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Well, I couldn't find my own pictures but found this cross section on the net. Perhaps the rail doesn't need to be laminated if the stock is quarter sawn. 

The blue line is where the glue joint is more or less. The red line is where I put the screws and/or dowels after gluing and clamping as best I can. I haven't seen one that completely separates but have seen them separate all the way down to the beginning of the bass. Some but not all of the dampers and whippens need to be removed. Reinforcement can also be put in on the 'shelf' below the hammer flange but that is a weak point too, I recommend at least a few diagonals be installed too.

(in the diagram "screws or" = "screws or dowels"; "glue=glue joint. That's what I get for trying to do this before the 1st cup of coffee)

Some people take short cuts but this isn't a job one wants to do twice.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 12:30
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Ryan, most (all?) vertical action rails are made with two pieces of wood glued toghether for reasons of grain orientation as the hammer and whippen  flange screws are perpendicular to the damper flage screws. On pianos with compressed actions the glue joint is half-way up the cove that accomodates the damper rod. The split occurs at the glue joint, it is actually a glue failure. When it happens, it starts at the treble end of the rail and works it's way towards the base the more the pedal is used. The tell tales for this problem are a) the dampers don't lift or barely lift off the strings in the treble; b)when you depress the pedal the hammers in the treble rise vertically as the pedal rod is actually flexing the the top part of the rail up and away from the bottom part. Rising vertically=towards the ceiling. I"ll look around for a picture.

>While this generally happens on older (1950's-60's) models, the last one I encountered was an American Baldwin from the early 90's. It was unique in that the damper rod lifted from the left and the split started in the bass.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 10:59
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

I've yet to come across the split rail issue - this is a good heads up! Does the rail split through the damper flange screw holes? I'm trying to picture exactly what the split looks like and where you put the screws to reinforce it. 

Like Joe Wiencek the timing of this thread was good for me as well. The last piano I tuned yesterday was a Gulbransen mini piano. The plastic elbows had been replaced but I looked in there and saw the plastic damper flanges. As far as I could tell none of them had been replaced and were working fine. I was able to point it out to the client and let them know that it should be in their long term plan to upgrade the piano. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2024 06:05
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Original Message:
Sent: 4/5/2024 11:40:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Broken plastic damper flange

I'm bringing this up because it came back to bite me the last time I replaced plastic flanges.

A long time customer wanted to donate his Story and Clark 44" to a school, plastic flanges were breaking one at a time and he wanted to fix them all before he gave the piano away. I did the work, reinstalled the action, played it some and pressed the sustain pedal and the action rail split. Oh joy.

So, another thing to check on pianos from this period is whether or not the sustain pedal goes to the right, if it does there is an increased chance of the action rail splitting due to the increased torque on the damper rod bracket that extends well past the treble dampers. This added liability is another reason to walk away such jobs with one's dignity intact. It's also a red flag if someone is having you evaluate a piano, even if it's not split I always point out the increased potential for trouble.

If I do any action work on these actions, plastic or not. I put some preventive screws into the action rail at either end and maybe one or two right near the end of the damper rod. If you have the action on the bench it just takes a few minutes to drill pilot holes and put in the screws. It will save you a major headache in the future. This set up of the sustain trap work going off to the right is fairly common on lower end pianos from that era with both plastic and wood flanges.

(note: the damper rod is the one that goes under the damper levers, the vertical one that comes up from the trap work is the pedal rod)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 12:15
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Just be very careful working with it. It sounds like you might have one of the pianos that ONLY has plastic damper flanges. I've seen this a few times: All wood parts except for the damper flanges. 

It should only take about 15 minutes or so to replace one, so it shouldn't be that big a deal. Just let the customer know this may and probably will be a bit of an ongoing annoyance. But you never know, it could go many years without another broken one. Just be clear with the client that it is very unpredictable and that the parts are fragile. 

That's a bummer that you gave the piano a "clean bill of health". It's an easy thing to miss - but you will now have that tucked away in your knowledge base. Dampers are not under a lot of stress, and as long as you don't try to bend the spoons or adjust them they might be OK for a while. I'll often leave a few spare flanges in the piano for the future. Good luck! We feel your pain. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 11:16
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Thank you all for sharing your expertise! The situation has this complication, when found this piano initially, they paid me to look it over. The piano checks out very well in almost all areas for a piano its age. Soundboard perfect, clean, everything worked, nice mahogany case. Unfortunately, I did not look deep enough to find the plastic flanges. Now I know…. For the time being, I'm going to try to nurse it along. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 10:55
From: Lyle Hiorns
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Explain options to your client, then let them make an informed decision about their piano. Give an estimate for parts replacement and also a price range for a comparable used (but much newer) upright in your area. Answer their questions throughout, then let them decide. How is the piano's condition in other areas? If it's worn everywhere (loose tuning pins, many soundboard cracks, failing bridges, ample string corrosion) then those are more reasons to get a different piano. 

I replaced plastic Backchecks and Damper Levers (and Damper Felt) on a 1949 Mason & Hamlin model F Console four years ago. After informing them in most all scenarios it's not worth it, they still chose parts replacement so the piano didn't go in a landfill. That aspect was important to them. In this case it helped that the piano was otherwise in good shape, even the finish.

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2024 09:15
From: David Stocker
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Some of the plastic flanges have a slightly different ad unique shape on the bottom. Be prepared to do some whittling. 

------------------------------
David Stocker, RPT
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2024 13:29
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Broken plastic damper flange

Hello,

I have a customer with a broken plastic damper flange on a 1950s (I think) Chickering console. I'm assuming there is no reason I couldn't replace with a wooden one? 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------