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converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

  • 1.  converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2023 13:00
    Greetings,

    We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

    A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

    Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

    And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

    We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2023 15:22
    If you aren't replacing the keys, what motivates you to reduce the balance pin size? Seems like a lot of work for no gain.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "Criticism is easy. Art is difficult." Philippe Destouches






    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2023 13:38
    Hello!  

    I'm wondering the same thing as Fred.  I see no advantage to .146 pins over .162, and new .162 pins are readily available.  Is it a matter of trying to standardize your keyboards, or is there some advantage that I don't know about with thinner balance rail pins?  

    Just curious, wish you the best with the project!

    ------------------------------
    Tom Dowell
    Hulbert Piano
    tom@hulbertpiano.com
    262-221-0792
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2023 14:21
    Here is a quick review of what I have stated earlier in this thread, Thomas. The balance holes are worn enough that I will have to do something more than glue sizing to resuscitate them, and wondered, if I go the route of installing a "new hole" at the bottom of the key anyway (and since I will be replacing the key pins in any event), how much trouble it would be to make the balance pins .146" instead of .162".

    My sole reason for making the conversion would be convenience and precision in key leveling. I find it frustrating to use regular key punchings on .162" balance pins, as they don't slide readily down the pin, and in the process of being forced, the paper flares up around the pin. I find this condition to be annoying when trying to achieve the "still water" effect that I go for in the plane of the tops of the natural keys, and somewhat less stable as well.

    Our colleagues on these lists have all but convinced me not to go for the conversion. So, now we are turning our attention to simpler ways to repair the worn balance holes than by using inserts, and coming up with a quick, clean way to open up the holes in the "center of the donut" on the balance rail paper punchings.

    Clear as mud?

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2023 14:40
    Ah, the problem of fitting paper and especially cardboard punchings on the balance pins. I'm with you now. Makes sense, except you will also need new key buttons. It's a lot of work.

    What Norm described for balance holes is similar to what Bill Spurlock wrote about in an article May, 1990. page 26. I imagine that's where Norm got it. Bill had drawings making it that much clearer and adding some important details.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." Mompou




    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Posted 01-07-2023 10:19
    Alan,

    You can enlarge the holes in the punchings by using a 3/16" hand held paper hole punch.  (The standard size is 1/4".)  This is tedious, but what I did was to keep an entire punching box full of balance rail punchings dedicated to old Steinways with the .162 pin.  On the thinner punchings, you can punch through several at a time.  Thick cardboard punchings are one at a time.  Once I had the box set up, it was just a matter of replenishing from time to time.

    This is a perfect job for apprentices or a 10 or 12 year old kid.

    I hope you can still find this 3/16" size.

    Good luck!

    Margie



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  • 7.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-07-2023 16:41
    Thanks for this tip, Margie! I have been looking, in vain, for and arch punch that is 11/64" in diameter. That would be close, without too much overage. A drill bit at .166" is an even better fit for the .162" balance pin. Seems like a paper punch, as per your suggestion, could well be better than the arch punch or the drill bit. I'll give it a try!

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Posted 01-07-2023 20:07
    Alan,

    It appears you can out-perfection the rest of us!  How much larger is the standard paper punching hole than the .144/.145 pin?

    Maybe I missed it, but how were you planning to install the new, smaller balance rail pins in the larger holes intended for the original .162 pins?

    Best solution might be to get a new set of keys, although that takes some money to accomplish.  That would fix multiple problems in one go.

    Margie



    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-09-2023 13:16

    I have repaired too-loose balance holes about a half dozen times, using an updated version of the process described by Bill Spurlock in the May 1990 PTJ.  Some of you old timers may recall this as the "Willis and David Snyder method".  I revised it quite a lot because routers and router tables have changed, and I thought it needed to be safer, but it does work and it's a good repair.  I haven't done it lately, but one of my colleagues used it last week.  The process took him about ten hours, including having to make one new jig for the bandsaw (because that had been replaced since the last use).  So, the big drawback is that it's expensive due to the time it takes, therefore it has limited utility.  By the time you get done doing this, rebushing, new capstans, etc., a new keyset on the original frame makes good sense, unless there is a very strong reason for preserving the originals.

    I can't think of a way to replace the .162" pins with .145", without replacing the balance rail or at least doing an insert.

    Ken




    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-07-2023 11:45
    Hi, Alan
    If the sole reason for the conversion is for cardboard and paper punching to go on (and off) the key pin easier, why not look at using a punch to make the punching holes larger? Standard paper punch leaves a 1/4” hole, but (according to the Internet) there are punches as small as .065”. Would enlarging the hole of the paper/cardboard be easier or less time consuming?
    Just a thought….

    Chuck

    Sent from my iPhone


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  • 11.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-07-2023 16:56
    I agree, Chuck. We have been experimenting with punches and drill bits, and will pursue Margie's suggestion along these lines.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-07-2023 18:04
    Alan

    A couple of ideas. First they sell Rotary punches for leather work that will probably meet your hole diameter needs. If that doesn't work you could make a jig from two pieces of wood. Drill a hole into each one the size of the outer diameter of the paper balance rail punching. (Probably 1/2"but I haven't measured) Drill a hole.162 plus a smidge in the center of each of the holes. You can then fill each block a little thicker than the depth of the hole. Now clamp the two boards together and the extra thickness of punching will clamp them tightly while you use a drill to enlarge the center hole in the paper punchings . Just a thought.

    Norman Cantrell 



    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-07-2023 21:01
    I see, thanks for the explanation.  I never thought about this problem, and it may explain the difficulty I've had leveling old Steinway keys!

    Thanks again.

    ------------------------------
    Tom Dowell
    Hulbert Piano
    tom@hulbertpiano.com
    262-221-0792
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2023 18:15
    Alan I do have one thought… Is there any chance WNG would have an insert or some such that would work for this? They have those amazing anodized balance rail pins…(and front rail of course) and although it's a long shot…might be worth checking into. Best of luck on this. (Fred may be correct…uggh)

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Longview, TX 75602
    806-778-3962
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2023 09:05
    Alan

    I have not done that exact procedure on a Steinway, however, I was called to help out an upright family heirloom.  The Balance Rail Holes were so excessive that all the usual methods appeared to be problematic.  Kerfing the hole would not guarantee exact center.  I made a pair of brass jigs to repair this situation.  I cut brass stock in a long rectangle to simulate the size of the key bottoms.  With both clamped together I drilled the desired .146 hole in basically the center.  I also drilled two 1/16" holes closer to the ends with one purposely offset from the center line.  After I took one of the brass jigs and enlarged the center hole from .146 to in this case the best average fit of the expanded holes.  In your case it would be .162.  I obtained some 1/16 brass rod from which I cut overlength pins and took and sharpened one end of each pin.  This gave me a jig that could mark reference points in the keys that would be identical on both size center hole.  

    Once they were all marked with the locator pins it was off to the router table to cut a 1/2" mortise in the base of the keys.  I obtained 1/16" basswood from a hobby store and cut it into strips a little wider than the keys.  These blanks were glued into the newly created mortise and I had keys with no locator hole.  Trimming of the excess width was necessary but with a small hand plane manageable.  Once this was complete the other jig was used to act as a drill guide for the correct size holes.  In my case all the keys lined up perfectly except for one that had been broken in half prior to my arrival by the abusive son from the home which was the reason for the job in the first place.  It did take a bit longer than I had anticipated but that's how we learn, unfortunately.  I will post some pictures later.  I seem to have gotten a cold and I'm on house arrest for the next day or so which includes no trips out to the shop.

    Norman Cantrell



    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2023 07:59
    Hi, Alan.

    What Norman outlines would be the most comprehensive way to reconfigure the keys.
    Or as you asked, inserts would be a quick option. I have done this on a few pianos with very chucky keys. 
    Not my preference, but budget was an overriding factor and it worked. 

    With regard to BR pins, WNG pins come with a receiver bushing that would take up the difference. 
    You can either go that way, or plug the holes, but you would have a much tougher time registering the 
    locations of the holes. If you go with WNG, it would take out most of the guesswork since you are simply
    enlarging the existing holes. 

    Good luck,

    Dave

    ------------------------------
    Dave Conte, RPT

    Resident Technician
    The University of Tennessee
    Knoxville TN
    (817) 307-5656
    Owner: Rocky Top Piano
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    Original Message