Actually no. Once the studs are set they're set. I "rarely" have trouble after that.
Having said that, on a rare occasion I will notice the need to readjust one or two but it is ever so slight and quickly accomplished just on the offenders. If that adjustment affects any others I will make the correction, but it is extremely slight.
SOME keybeds are overactive (hyperactive) to humidity change. Years ago Scott Jones developed a screw on device to reinforce overactive highly flexible keybeds (so this a known issue), but he discontinued it due to lack of interest.
Interesting...
Original Message:
Sent: 02-28-2024 12:34
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Something is strange. Dip is certainly affected by changing the glide bolts. Steinway factory even refers to them as touch regulating bolts. But to keep changing after you alter the bolts' position, and that happens not through seasonal changes is indeed odd. Are all the screws tight for the keybed to rim and belly joints?
Joe Wiencek
Original Message:
Sent: 2/28/2024 10:10:00 AM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Hi Paul, Yes, all stack screws are tight. If any become loose I put West Systems epoxy in the hole and re-thread it to create a very tight screw fit. And yes, the stack feet are all sitting squarely on the frame. I am meticulous about these things. In addition, I always let the stack sit in the piano for hours or overnight after putting it back into the piano in order to let the action frame settle and adjust to the key bed.
What I am wondering is, are other techs having this same experience as I am having, or is it not an issue? Or do you all notice changes in the dip when you re-bed the action, but don't worry about it?
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Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
Original Message:
Sent: 02-28-2024 09:59
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Are all the stack screws absolutely tight? Does the stack sit squarely on the feet of the keyframe? Is the hammer rail straight when it's screwed down? I suggest that the stack is influencing the flexing of the keyframe so that when you put it in and take it it's changing the bedding.
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Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 02-28-2024 09:32
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Peter, Slight knocking, usually on the first and second bolt from the left, bass side of the piano.
Joe
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Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
Original Message:
Sent: 02-28-2024 08:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Joe,
Knocking everywhere? Or just one or two studs knocking ever so slightly?
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 02-26-2024 18:11
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Yes, David, when I say the bedding is off after putting the action back into the piano after having it on the Edwards Trolley, I mean that it is knocking. Then after I re-bed the action the Dip has changed. I would have to keep better track of how much the Dip changes, but it is obvious when I feel it on the Dip Block. I would estimate the change to be around a .006 to .012, but I am not exactly sure. I will pay better attention to it and write down when this happens.
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Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
Original Message:
Sent: 02-26-2024 09:20
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
In addition to David's question(s) just how much has the dip spec changed in this scenario?
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 02-26-2024 00:55
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Hi Joe -
Thanks for playing along. I have a few more thoughts on your enumerated points:
This comment strikes me as key -
"The problem is when I come back to the piano either later in the day or the next day, the bedding is off and needs to be reset. So, I reset the bedding to where it is good again and then check the dip and the dip has changed. This is the problem."
What do you mean, precisely, that "the bedding is off"? Is it knocking? Then, once you correct it, is the dip still incorrect? By how much? Does this happen all the time or only sometimes? It's possible to imagine that, with a 'lightly' bedded frame, changes in humidity can produce such symptoms. Also, we didn't establish whether this happens with particular manufacturers or across brands.
A potential variable in the 'knock' method, even without the problem of a possible absence of keyframe crown that I previously mentioned, is the actual amount of pressure you chose to have being exerted by the glides. We gauge this by assessing how much force we have to employ in lifting the action to induce the knock.
You thought about the possibility of the keyframe members having become unglued, which is worth checking at the outset, but most frames (I think) are secured with screws. On the other hand, there's always potential for some effect when you disassemble and reassemble the top action from the frame.
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David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
(917) 589-2625
Original Message:
Sent: 02-25-2024 17:08
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Sorry about the confusion my initial question caused. Here is a clarification.
Here is my current protocol for bedding:
1) I bed the action in the piano using the knock method with the side bocks tightened down. I make sure the action is bedded properly with sustain pedal up, then down, then with shift pedal activated while pressing up and down with the sustain pedal. So, I bed the action frame in four different positions. 1-Sustain disengaged, 2-Sustain pedal engaged, 3-Shift pedal engaged with sustain pedal disengaged, 4-Shift pedal engaged with sustain pedal disengaged.
2) I then set key dip on sample keys up and down the keyboard while it is still in the piano.
3) I take the action out of the piano and put it on the Edwards dolly. I do not touch the glide bolts, but use the Edwars dolly adjustments to match the exact key dip that was set in the piano for each of the sample notes I am regulating. Sometimes I will take the top action off in order to install a capstan boat to figure out how much it needs to be moved if that is a problem. Then I reinstall the top action.
4) I then put the action back into the piano, install and screw down the side blocks and let it sit for a while. The problem is when I come back to the piano either later in the day or the next day, the bedding is off and needs to be reset. So, I reset the bedding to where it is good again and then check the dip and the dip has changed. This is the problem.
All your comments have been helpful to think about this issue, and makes me think of the questions below:
?- I do wonder if using the WNG bedding gauge instead of the knock bedding method would be a more accurate way of bedding the action.
?- I also wonder if on some pianos taking the action in and out of the piano can actually minutely shift the position of the wood joints that hold the action frame together. If this is the case then the bedding will always change when the action is removed and put back into the piano. The piano I am working on is from 1922, so I would not be surprised if the wooden key frame joints have deteriorated. A remedy for this would be to take apart the action frame on older pianos and reglue all the joints. This is something that I have never thought of before, but it might actually be something that would help with action frame stability on old pianos. Do some piano rebuilders do this? Take apart old action frames and reglue them before doing their action work?
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Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
Original Message:
Sent: 02-25-2024 13:43
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Joe -
I sensed some basic confusion in your original question and wondered how you might re-frame (NPI) it, after the numerous comments you received, but, while waiting, I had a few followup questions for you-
- why would you be setting keydip out of the piano, on a caddy that can't possibly have the same controlled adjustability as something like Chris Brown's set up accomplishes? (note: there HAD to be a reason he devoted so many brain cells to the project)
- you say the key dip changes every time you re-bed the keyframe. Others have already questioned this. Of course key dip will change if you alter the bedding, but the question is: why are you 're' bedding, if your painstaking effort was successful to begin with. I think your focus needs to remain with the reliablity of the bedding process and the applicability of that process to the given manufacturer. As Horace Greeley further described, even within Steinway, the methods of construction have changed over time, requiring modifications in approach.
- from my own experience (specific to Steinway), I'll share these marginally useful observations:
- check shape of keybed with straight edge for any obvious anomalies
- check underside of keyframe, front to back, along its entire length for the presence (or absence) of 'crown', which is part of Steinway design. If the frame has collapsed (straight edge contacts balance rail wood) it will be impossible to reliably bed using the traditional 'tap' method, and will potentially create other problems such as excess shift friction
- BACK RAIL!!! I admit it. I dislike them. I tend to avoid them, ususally to my detriment. While this may be one of those steps that Bill Ballard referenced as not having a significant impact on keydip, the problems associated with poorly fit back rail can be subtle and persistent, especially if there is inadequate postive pressure from 'dogs' (or dags?).
- To add to the confusion, I would re-pose a question to Horace (or anyone else who knows) that I think I asked some years ago: I thought I remember an 'old-timer' describing the intentional flexing of the frame with extra pressure from the glide adjustment to increase the stiffness of the frame, to reflect energy. This would require that the dogs/dags exert positive contact to prevent the back rail from lifting, and not be excessive enough to create shift drag or squeaks. Anyone know if I made this up?
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David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
(917) 589-2625
Original Message:
Sent: 02-22-2024 15:39
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Does anyone have a protocol for bedding the action so that key dip remains accurate?
Hello fellow members,
I have noticed that even when I painstakingly bed the action to be as accurate as possible, the key dip will change almost every time I re-bed the action. I do use the Edward's Action Caddy to set an accurate key dip when I regulate out of the piano. I have noticed that even the most minute change in the action caddy setting will change the key dip, which tells me that key dip is ultra-sensitive to any minute changes in bedding the action.
My question is this. Does anyone out there have a protocol for a key dip priority bedding of the piano, where they bed the piano in order to reproduce the exact key dip they originally set on the keys?
Thanks!
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Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
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