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Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

  • 1.  Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-29-2022 15:03
    Hi, folks.

    You may have seen my recent post about reducing tuning time for a beginner, as well as requesting general advice. I'd like to post another question seperately.

    Beyond the great need for frequent practice, some in that post mentioned the utility of an impact hammer for a beginner. This interests me, especially its ability to stabilise the pin. However, a 200 series Cyberhammer is about the same price as a Fujan carbon fiber, which could also be used on a grand. Which would you pick in my case? Which would be most helpful in, addition to the practice?

    Also, if the Fujan, which head angle would give the best control? I'm moderately shorter (5' 7"), so would picking the shorter 11" length be meaningfully detrimental? Should I stick with 13"?

    Thank you

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Dellinger
    Catawba Valley Piano Services
    Maiden, NC
    (828) 705-1732
    cvpianoservices@gmail.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-29-2022 16:14
    Hello Joshua, 
    I have owned both the early Reyburn impact hammer as well as their improved, newer one. They are not as versatile since the model you are referring to, is only for uprights.
    I have done fine tunings with them without any problem. 
    However,  I always kept going back to a more traditional tuning hammer shape, either the Fujan or the Charles Faulk. I like those equally well. The Fujan's advantage is that you can increase its leverage by adding an extension.
    I have not personally experimented with different angles but think that it all comes down to personal preference and what works for one person, might not work optimally for another.
    Dan Levitan's C-hammer is designed for grands but I have used that to tune upright pianos as well. Reyburn 's traditional cyber hammer is an excellent choice as well. Maybe you can ask your chapter members to see if they have all the various hammers which they may let you try during a chapter meeting? 
    Again, it's a very personal choice.
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    (678) 416-8055
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-29-2022 17:32
    For a beginner, I'd recommend going with the Fujan. Get used to the pin moving. Learn how to settle it. Only after you've learned this, THEN get the vertical impact lever. Get the lighter version. It's well worth the price difference.

    My current Fujan is 17". I wouldn't want to go back to a shorter one. The greater leverage provides more control with less effort. So I'd recommend one not less than 13", although you can make anything work with practice. I think the head angle on mine is 15º. I'd go with either 10º or 15º, because clearance is an issue with the 5º head.

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    John Formsma
    New Albany MS

    "Sneak up on optimal."
    --Ron Nossaman
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2022 18:38

    Completely agree with what John said. Learn to use the basic lever first, then branch out. I personally use a 12" Fujan lever, but in hindsight I'd go with the 13". More leverage equals an easier time when dealing with tight pins. 

    I've tried a bunch of different head angles, but always go back to 10°. I feel it gives me the best control while flexing the pin the least amount. 15° is good too, but I don't care for it. 5° you'll have problems with. 

    When it's time to try the CyberHammer, I recommend getting the newest model (720?). The 200 series is ok but there's a world of difference between the two. If you're going to make the investment, save a little extra and make up the difference. You won't regret it. 

    Again, practice and practice and practice before you start buying expensive tools. Master the basics first. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-29-2022 18:49
    Thanks folks, that sounds good. I was leaning towards an 11", but I'll shoot for the 13". Just wanted to be sure before making the investment. I appreciate the input greatly

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    Joshua Dellinger
    Catawba Valley Piano Services
    Maiden, NC
    (828) 705-1732
    cvpianoservices@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2022 20:03

    I'm still doing just fine with a Schaff extension hammer, pulled all the way out. Short head at a steep angle.

    I have an impact tuning lever, which I reserve for the more difficult Steinway uprights, especially the upper sections.

    This isn't to badmouth high end hammers, or the amazing innovation Dan Levitan achieved. But I don't consider them NECESSARY, especially for beginners.




    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-29-2022 22:56

    Susan,

    Like you, I learned to tune with a basic extension lever, which I still have as a backup. (Plus it's fun to use on my own piano every now and again.) So I agree with you that it's not necessary… but….

    Having a high quality modern lever makes my life so much easier. And, I've walked about a dozen beginners through the learning process, and each of them has reported back a greatly accelerated process when they switch over. The reason is the light weight and firmness. It's so much easier to be able to focus on what one's trying to learn when you can feel clearly what's going on. With an extension lever one is hindered (while learning) due to having to figure out how to read the lever in addition to the pin. 

    I think it would be a great investment for Joshua (or any beginner) to get a good quality modern lever. Of course, that raises his initial investment, but I assume he's in it for the long run, or at least a decent try at the long run. 



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-29-2022 23:09
    That was my thinking exactly, Benjamin. Necessary? No, I suppose not. But if it provides some ease and relief in helping me learn, I'll take it.

    As you say, I'm at least making a try at the long run. I have some aspirations as a teacher, but due to my poor health that's still a ways off, if it ever comes about. Years, at least. This I am able to work at now and work as I'm able, and I don't plan to truly leave it, even if I add something else later. I'm in it, and I mean to be.

    I suppose only have one last question: wooden knob or straight end? I've had straight ends so far.

    Again, thank you all for your inputs

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Dellinger
    Catawba Valley Piano Services
    Maiden, NC
    (828) 705-1732
    cvpianoservices@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 00:11
    I use the 5º for verticals and 15º for grands. I did have to get a tip extension for the 5º because some uprights require it.The 10º would be a good compromise.

    I have to say that after I started using the Fujan, I realized that sometimes when I thought I was finessing the tuning pin, I was actually finessing the torque in the tuning head itself on my old standard lever; one never stops learning. I think the Fujan head is the biggest advantage that the tool offers for this reason. 

    Btw, regarding length, you can always "choke up" on a longer lever to reduce the leverage.

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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 01:00

    Joshua, sorry to hear about your ill health, and I hope you fully recover.

    I'm fighting mine as well, but then, I'm 76 years old. I still hope for improvements.




    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-30-2022 01:06
    Thank you, Susan. Fortunately I've found in this an able line of work. Here's to better health. God bless

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    Joshua Dellinger
    Catawba Valley Piano Services
    Maiden, NC
    (828) 705-1732
    cvpianoservices@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 01:22

    I'd go with the ball-end handle. It's more ergonomic for your hand when you have to grasp it on the end and pull - and there are plenty of pianos where you have to do that. 

    That is, of course, personal preference, but having used the ball-handle, I'm never going back unless I have to. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 00:58

    Benjamin, of course there are various ways of using a tuning hammer.

    I like the mass, because I use some light slapping and nudging in my tuning, which preserves my muscles and joints. Giving a slap and not holding and pulling the hammer also increases stability because twisting and flagpoling of the pin doesn't take place. The mass in the tuning hammer gives just enough impetus to the tuning pin to move it the amount I want.

    Also, the tip has a little slop around the tuning pin, and using that small motion for making tiny adjustments is helpful.

    The weight and length would be a nuisance if I held the tuning hammer by the end when moving it to a new pin, but I pick it up right at the head, which makes moving it easy.




    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 08:12

    Regarding Susan's attachment to her Schaff extension hammer. I owned one once, and have a similar Itoshin lever still. These "old models" are like the heavy wood tennis racket I grew up with. About 20 years ago I "found" my old racket and played doubles all morning with it. 

    My arm was SO SORE for days after. Back to carbon fiber rackets after that!! Please get a modern lever, made of lightweight materials: Fujan, Faulk, etc.



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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-30-2022 08:20
    Yep. I'm planing to go with the Fujan.

    That said, I do respect Susan's perspective on it. However, if I wanted to go for a more impact style, I'll probably just buy an impact hammer in the future, rather than pick a heavier hammer in order to use a slap technique. Maybe I'm wrong on that, though

    Thank you all for your input. I do appreciate it

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    Joshua Dellinger
    Catawba Valley Piano Services
    Maiden, NC
    (828) 705-1732
    cvpianoservices@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 13:24

    I got the "impact" tuning style at a workshop given many years ago by Jim Coleman, Sr. He explained the reasoning behind it as well. I tried what he had discussed, found it good, and enlarged upon it, adding variations.

    Wonderful guy, Jim Coleman, Sr., and so honest and generous. He was active in the old (much missed) pianotech list, and one day he asked for purely aural tuners (there were a few back then, though now I seem to be the Last of the Mohicans) to discuss their feelings toward how they tuned. I waxed poetic -- such close connections to the piano, such a rich feedback from it, and not delegating the most interesting part of the tuning, no need to look at blinky spinning things, and so on. Then I thought, "how does he know I'm not blowing smoke up his skirts, so to speak? He doesn't know if I can tune my way out of a paper bag."

    At the time, medium-new to concert tuning, I had been collecting cassette tapes of concerts I had tuned for, mainly from the Bloch Festival in Newport, which let me have them. So I copied some of them and mailed them to him. At the time he was selling what was then the leading ETD, so one day I told him I had been considering buying one so I could record the tuning on one 9 foot grand and carry it to the other on days when I couldn't roll them to play on both at once, which I preferred. Nothing like playing the same note on both pianos simultaneously for real clarity and total agreement.

    He told me that since he had heard my recordings, he thought I should save my money.

    What a gent!




    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 13:07

    The "big, heavy" Schaff extension lever does not make my arm sore or tired, but that's because of the way I use it.

    "Slow pull" and lifting it from half way or further back would lead to fatigue and soreness and maybe sore joints as well. Slapping and nudging and picking it up at the head do not cause fatigue or injury.





    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Member
    Posted 07-30-2022 11:00
    When I went from my Schaff extension lever to the Fujan,, my tuning times dropped by a half an hour. The lighter weight made the move from pin to pin quicker and lack of flex made so I could put the pin where it needs to be with precision. 
    Dale Erwin is a great tuner but it's not not something he can teach. However he did say his father used to say to him, "stop playing with it and put the pin where it needs to be." Dale thought that was mean of his father. I believe Dale's feather was the last student of Braid White in Chicago, 1950s
    It made sense to me because I was playing with the pins. There are different techniques to settle a pin gently but you have to TURN the pin to where it needs to be,, then massage it into the place it wants to be. 
    Less flex in the lever helps place the pin. In Susan's case,,, she leaves the lever one length so the flex is always the same. Once you know the tool you use,, it won't make much difference. 
    The Fujan is an impressive looking lever,, professional and not looking like you picked the stuff up at the flea market
    I have a short stiff lever that I use when the lid prop is in the way. That lever also has a compact tip so I can get to note A0. 




    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2022 11:49
    This is a question I get pretty often.

    I was personally fortunate to start off with an impact hammer. That kind of start means you're not having to relearn technique and all your impact tuning work is more "native" from the beginning, rather than you always thinking in terms of a traditional lever translated onto the impact. I'm also going to point out that the impact hammer is flat out a faster way to learn to tune. You have less variables that you're having to feel through. It's a better way to address the vertical piano, which is what most of us do our learning on.

    You also NEED a very stiff traditional style lever. You CAN NOT skip this.

    That said, here's a couple paths:

    The best way is to just get all the premium stuff out of the gate. That's usually a stretch for a beginner tech budget. If you can do it, it's definitely best in the long term.
    Obviously I'm going to recommend our Rigid Lever as a traditional tuning lever, and a 700 Series CyberHammer.

    The budget option is the 200 Series CyberHammer. It's a bit heavier and less streamlined, but it handles and tunes just like the 700 Series and is about $200 cheaper. 
    That leaves you with budget room for a lever like the Levitan Classic or Utility, available from PianoTek Supply. It's a very stiff lever. The advantage and down side to that tool is that it's a one-piece system. For $75-$175 it's a great starter lever and backup once you move to something really premium for your primary tool.

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    http://www.facebook.com/ReyburnPianoTech
    http://www.reyburntools.com
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 07-30-2022 12:37
    Thanks for the input, Nate. I should probably update the discussion by saying that I just purchased the Fujan.

    That said, I do plan to grab a 700 at some point in the future when I can budget it in.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Dellinger
    Catawba Valley Piano Services
    Maiden, NC
    (828) 705-1732
    cvpianoservices@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 00:12
    You know, I think it has a lot to do with what you get used to. I'm still using my Hale Tuners Supply Standard Professional Tuning Lever that I purchased in 1973 and I'm still perfectly happy with it.

    What is interesting about mine is that the Head is stamped 10 degrees but it is actually closer to 12.5 degrees. I don't think you can get that anywhere. I rather like my 12.5 degrees.

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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 00:48
    Hi Tremaine,

    Believe it or not, 12.5 deg is our standard head. :P
    I love a good 5 or 10deg short head when I can get away with it, and 15deg gets you through mostly anything at some feel cost.

    Nate Reyburn, RPT
    (616) 696-0500



    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 12:21
    I've used a number of different levers and the Fujan is by far my favorite. I recently got a Reyburn impact lever (700) and it wasn't as easy as I expected. I had tried one a couple of years ago at a chapter meeting and was able to immediately tune clean unisons. It was very intuitive. That is still true, but now that I've tuned a couple pianos with it, I realize that I'm not getting anywhere near the stability that I get with a traditional lever. So for now I'm just tuning my own pianos with it until I'm confident enough to use it for customers. Perhaps Nate or someone has some tips for achieving stability? I do want to use the impact lever more often for shoulder and back reasons.

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    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
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    Original Message


  • 24.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 13:26
    Come to Nate's class on tuning ergonomics, later this week here in Anaheim!

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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    Original Message


  • 25.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 13:32
    Unfortunately I'm not able to attend this year. (Wedding + family reunion)

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    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 26.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 18:10
    Anthony,

    Envoyé de mon iPhone


    Original Message


  • 27.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 08-01-2022 18:36
    Stability with the Reyburn vertical lever is as good as with any other lever. But...there are some pianos that don't respond well to the Reyburn. Those with super tight pins will be hard because there isn't enough weight to move the pin consistently. They sell extra weights (or used to), but for these pianos, I get out the 17" Fujan and take care of it that way.

    Achieving stability will happen over many tunings and observations. I'd recommend using an ETD so you can instantly verify stability. Once you know what it takes to get stability, you'll be confident of your tunings.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma
    New Albany MS

    "Sneak up on optimal."
    --Ron Nossaman
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 28.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 18:47
    More specific questions: is there anything special you need to do to "set the pin" and string? Is it better to approach the pitch from above or below? (I've found it easier to approach from below because I have more control with a given tap.) Do you do any "flexing" of the pin (pin flexing up and down towards and away from the sky, with the lever being thrown or tapped towards and away from tuner) to set the string? I remember seeing Nate at a convention saying that most of that is automatic, but I'm still having problems with unisons going out after a week. The (gray market) Yamahas I've tuned with this definitely don't have a tight pin problem.

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    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
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    Original Message


  • 29.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Posted 08-01-2022 19:01
    I almost always come down from above the pitch. With time, you'll learn how much movement happens with with each tap, tap, tap. I don't flex the pin, although I did when I first started using it. But I've learned that it's not necessary.

    To go from below doesn't seem natural to me. I perhaps could learn to make that work, but it seems much more controllable to go from above...little by little, tap by tap.

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    John Formsma
    New Albany MS

    "Sneak up on optimal."
    --Ron Nossaman
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 30.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2022 21:47

    I purchased a used Cyber Hammer from another technician several years ago because I had some severe shoulder pain.  I found, as others have experienced, that the tunings were not as precise, and notes were slipping after I thought they had been set.  I tried various methods of setting the pins, and found that I needed to use a bit of reverse twist on the pins, just as I was used to doing with my regular hammer.  I'd use my wrist to lower the pitch slightly into tune, not using the impact.  The idea of pitching slightly high and easing it back down seems to work for both methods.  I also found that very loose pins present a problem because the impact overpowers the pin and moves it too much.  In that case I prefer a regular hammer.  When the pins are too tight, it takes quite a vigorous movement, although using the extension/weight helps a lot.  Again, I'll turn to my regular hammer for those tight pins.  I do find that the tuning overall is very stable, and attempts to tweak the tuning is more difficult using the impact hammer because it just wants to stay where it is. 
    Another thing is, the arc of the handle near the ends of the piano makes it easy to hit the inside edge of the case.  That means your nice hammer has now got dings in it.  I wish the tuning tip would have a spring on it so when you put your hammer on a pin that the tip would be in the same position relative to the handle (lever).  As it is, you have almost no idea where the handle is going to be when you put the tip on the pin.  I prefer to have the handle in a 12 o'clock position, but you then have to rotate the tip so that your handle is vertical when you impact the tuning pin.  Easier to demonstrate than describe it in words.  I wrote Nate about this, but he said it would make the tool much more expensive and harder to produce.
    As with anything, you have to try it out and spend the time to make it work for you.



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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 31.  RE: Impact or carbon fiber hammer for a beginner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2022 13:16
    Paul,

    That was exactly my experience too...verbatim.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message