Pianotech

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

Does anyone actually measure the height of keys? I don't, and never have. One sets the height of the end keys and levels those in the middle by sight and by feel. 

Nor do we actually measure the key travel. How can one, given that there is a soft landing and total key travel is a function of how much force one is using to depress it. Key travel is generally measured by touch, by feel. 

To be sure different technicians have different methods of accomplishing both of these but I don't recall seeing anyone ever trying to set either of them using either the Imperial or the metric measuring system. Actual measures are a guide, sight and feel are the final arbiters. 

ddf

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

I have been assuming that key height is determined by the fallboard.  Dip is then taken off key height and everything else is regulated off of that.

Does anyone actually measure the height of keys? I don't, and never have. One sets the height of the end keys and levels those in the middle by sight and by feel. 

Nor do we actually measure the key travel. How can one, given that there is a soft landing and total key travel is a function of how much force one is using to depress it. Key travel is generally measured by touch, by feel. 

To be sure different technicians have different methods of accomplishing both of these but I don't recall seeing anyone ever trying to set either of them using either the Imperial or the metric measuring system. Actual measures are a guide, sight and feel are the final arbiters. 

ddf

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

I have been assuming that key height is determined by the fallboard.  Dip is then taken off key height and everything else is regulated off of that.

Does anyone actually measure the height of keys? I don't, and never have. One sets the height of the end keys and levels those in the middle by sight and by feel. 

Nor do we actually measure the key travel. How can one, given that there is a soft landing and total key travel is a function of how much force one is using to depress it. Key travel is generally measured by touch, by feel. 

To be sure different technicians have different methods of accomplishing both of these but I don't recall seeing anyone ever trying to set either of them using either the Imperial or the metric measuring system. Actual measures are a guide, sight and feel are the final arbiters. 

ddf

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

I have been assuming that key height is determined by the fallboard.  Dip is then taken off key height and everything else is regulated off of that.

Does anyone actually measure the height of keys? I don't, and never have. One sets the height of the end keys and levels those in the middle by sight and by feel. 

Nor do we actually measure the key travel. How can one, given that there is a soft landing and total key travel is a function of how much force one is using to depress it. Key travel is generally measured by touch, by feel. 

To be sure different technicians have different methods of accomplishing both of these but I don't recall seeing anyone ever trying to set either of them using either the Imperial or the metric measuring system. Actual measures are a guide, sight and feel are the final arbiters. 

ddf

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

I can assure you that in the Bechstein and Bosendorfer factories that key height and key dip are set to metric specs.  It is in final regulation that

aftertouch is set.  Punches are roughly the same thicknesses as us.   After touch is set on naturals using a dip block and then on sharps

by feel.

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2024 08:15
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

I'm sure that in a factory setting, workers set parts to spec using metric quite often. We have less need for things like setting exact key height to a certain spec, though the technical exam does have metric equivalents for the regulation parts.

I'm still curious about dip. Most likely, no one uses units of measure more fine that 0.1mm. Perhaps most techs outside the U.S. refer to dip generically as shallow, medium, and deep?

Jp


Original Message:
Sent: 3/13/2024 1:08:00 AM
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

I have been assuming that key height is determined by the fallboard.  Dip is then taken off key height and everything else is regulated off of that.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 03-12-2024 02:18
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Metric measurements

Does anyone actually measure the height of keys? I don't, and never have. One sets the height of the end keys and levels those in the middle by sight and by feel. 

Nor do we actually measure the key travel. How can one, given that there is a soft landing and total key travel is a function of how much force one is using to depress it. Key travel is generally measured by touch, by feel. 

To be sure different technicians have different methods of accomplishing both of these but I don't recall seeing anyone ever trying to set either of them using either the Imperial or the metric measuring system. Actual measures are a guide, sight and feel are the final arbiters. 

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 03-11-2024 09:39
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Metric measurements

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 18:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Metric measurements

Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 4:35:00 PM
From: John Parham
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 11:51:00 AM
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

------------------------------
| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
Jason Kanter
Lynnwood WA
(425) 830-1561

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 11:11
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Thank you both for your feedback. The Piano Technicians Playground has an aftertouch station, and we use empirical to quantify different feels. It now has an opportunity travel across the big pond, and we're trying to modify it to fold neatly into the way the Europeans talk about, teach, and quantify after touch.

Thank you again for your input. It's invaluable.


Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 9:31:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 07:58
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

------------------------------
John Parham, RPT
Hickory, NC
828-244-2487
john440@me.com
------------------------------

Does anyone actually measure the height of keys? I don't, and never have. One sets the height of the end keys and levels those in the middle by sight and by feel. 

Nor do we actually measure the key travel. How can one, given that there is a soft landing and total key travel is a function of how much force one is using to depress it. Key travel is generally measured by touch, by feel. 

To be sure different technicians have different methods of accomplishing both of these but I don't recall seeing anyone ever trying to set either of them using either the Imperial or the metric measuring system. Actual measures are a guide, sight and feel are the final arbiters. 

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 03-11-2024 09:39
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Metric measurements

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 18:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Metric measurements

Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 4:35:00 PM
From: John Parham
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 11:51:00 AM
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

------------------------------
| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
Jason Kanter
Lynnwood WA
(425) 830-1561

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 11:11
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Thank you both for your feedback. The Piano Technicians Playground has an aftertouch station, and we use empirical to quantify different feels. It now has an opportunity travel across the big pond, and we're trying to modify it to fold neatly into the way the Europeans talk about, teach, and quantify after touch.

Thank you again for your input. It's invaluable.


Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 9:31:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 07:58
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

------------------------------
John Parham, RPT
Hickory, NC
828-244-2487
john440@me.com
------------------------------

It's refreshing to see this reminder from Del that rulers don't rerally have much value when setting up a piano.

------------------------------
David Patterson RPT
Richmond Hill ON
(416) 638-0901
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-12-2024 02:18
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Metric measurements

Does anyone actually measure the height of keys? I don't, and never have. One sets the height of the end keys and levels those in the middle by sight and by feel. 

Nor do we actually measure the key travel. How can one, given that there is a soft landing and total key travel is a function of how much force one is using to depress it. Key travel is generally measured by touch, by feel. 

To be sure different technicians have different methods of accomplishing both of these but I don't recall seeing anyone ever trying to set either of them using either the Imperial or the metric measuring system. Actual measures are a guide, sight and feel are the final arbiters. 

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 03-11-2024 09:39
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Metric measurements

This is becoming more and more important as we Americans sluggishly and begrudgingly migrate toward metric.

The one specification that .1mm = .04" will not suffice is key level. Humans can easily detect this thickness when

comparing adjacent items (such as piano natural keys). The Exploratorium in San Francisco (a hands-on science

museum) had an exhibit that specifically examined touch sensitivity and proved this hypothesis. How do people who

deal with a metric standard go about getting precise key level with a tolerance as large as .1mm/.04"? I can certainly feel and 

see this much in adjacent natural keys. I know the answer is by a combination of thicknesses, and pose this only for consideration

and reflection. 

DC

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 18:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Metric measurements

Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 4:35:00 PM
From: John Parham
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 11:51:00 AM
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

One way to approach this hasn't been mentioned: the thicknesses of the paper punchings in use in Metric lands. Surely someone can answer this. If they use our punchngs, then they must use thousandths of inches in aftertouch adjustments. What thicknesses are there in European paper?

------------------------------
| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
Jason Kanter
Lynnwood WA
(425) 830-1561

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 11:11
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Thank you both for your feedback. The Piano Technicians Playground has an aftertouch station, and we use empirical to quantify different feels. It now has an opportunity travel across the big pond, and we're trying to modify it to fold neatly into the way the Europeans talk about, teach, and quantify after touch.

Thank you again for your input. It's invaluable.


Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 3/8/2024 9:31:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Metric measurements

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 07:58
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

------------------------------
John Parham, RPT
Hickory, NC
828-244-2487
john440@me.com
------------------------------

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 07:58
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

------------------------------
John Parham, RPT
Hickory, NC
828-244-2487
john440@me.com
------------------------------

Alan went:I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

The metric system always claimed two advantages: 1.) it was the nearly world-wide standard, and 2.) it was decimal (making arithmetic much easier). By the 1980s, when an increasing majority of piano techs were going metric, I had discovered English decimal (R16 increments - 32ds/64ths on one side, 50ths/100ths on the other) and never looked back. (Nowadays, digital measuring devices make instant conversions in one button-click). I used to be able to read 16R without glasses, but now I need them to read my own writing.
The late, revered LaRoy convinced me of the primacy of after touch. If because of minute differences of action ratio, one note wants 10 more mils keystroke than its neighbor, the pianists' trained figures will notice 10 mils error in aftertouch (out of a conventional 50 mils) with a constant dip setting much faster, than a 10 mil dip error (out of a conventional .390 dip).

Setting aftertouch directly is a matter of feel, basically how much pressure it takes to squish a front rail felt punching through LO, with a "stand-in" 50 mil cardboard under the felt punching. I set a reference note (arbitrarily, the lowest natural in the tenor), and if I suspect I've lost the feeling of that "squish", I can refer to that first note.

And yes, setting aftertouch directly is a dark lonely job (especially for the sharps), but someone's got to do it. 

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 09:31
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Metric measurements

I cannot speak to what native users of the metric do to express aftertouch in numbers. I use the metric system for virtually everything EXCEPT for string and center pin diameters (the sizes of which vary by .001"), and key pin sizes. In these areas, I find the increment of .001" more handy than .1 mm--which is a skosh less than .004" of an inch.

I agree with Parker that, at the end of the day, after touch is a matter of feel. For example, the setting of drop, to use a notion conjured by the late, great David Andersen, "sculpts" the perception of the moment of let-off, and therefore, the perception of after touch. And if a front rail bushing is a bit on the tight side, there seems to be less after touch. In both of these instances, the measured amount of aftertouch would be same, but the feel/perceived amount would be different.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2024 07:58
From: John Parham
Subject: Metric measurements

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?

------------------------------
John Parham, RPT
Hickory, NC
828-244-2487
john440@me.com
------------------------------

Americans commonly use Imperial measurements for things like string diameters and aftertouch. Since the rest of the world seems to use the metric system, how do they measure and express aftertouch, only to 0.1mm?

When teaching aftertouch, I usually demonstrate the tactile difference between 0.30", 0.40", and .060". The metric conversion would make the range difference of only about 0.75mm. I suspect they have a different range they work with than we do because how the conversions work out.

How do European piano technicians measure and express grand aftertouch? What tools do they commonly use and what ranges do they work within?