Pianotech

  • 1.  My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Member
    Posted 01-20-2023 18:25
    This feels like a very simple thing, and I've read up on the various tricks, but I wanted to ask around. Not sure if I've posted this in the right section - mods please don't hesitate to move it if need be.

    For the first time - I have gone to tune a piano and the pins unscrew themselves when I let go. Even if I leave my hammer on the pin, it will rotate counterclockwise on its own. Mildly frightening.

    I am going to grab some pin tite, I started with two failed CA applications. At this point in my career I have the skill but don't have a place to tip, remove, bore and change out all the pins - so I would happily send this to a fellow tech when it comes to that!

    Just on the topic of pins, I've had slippery ones, loose pins and tight ones.. I've never seen them pull so quickly! Even bumping them by accident sent them down an octave. I'm not crazy right, they are compromised?

    the plate/block has like 6 hex bolts running through it, I would assume a repair for stripped plate screws or just a cheaper Aeolian way of manufacturing.

    full disclosure: this is an Aeolian player that is at least 100 years old I think. I see signs of previous action repair, replacement and decent maintenance! 

    Thank you for any tips, stories or encouragement. I've done my due diligence researching player piano guts and specs. I thought either if we save or ditch the player, the piano itself needs some TLC

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    Tom Delmonte
    Buffalo NY
    (716) 352-5607
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  • 2.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2023 18:58

    You know, I wonder why piano technicians are so hesitant to simply give the customer the bad news, that the piano needs to be replaced!  We can serve the customer better by advising them, not by trying to make the piano limp through additional use - perhaps assisting in finding another piano is being more helpful than trying to keep something this old and decrepit going.

     

    I worked with one customer a number of years with a really old Mason & Hamlin 'A' that had barely tuneable pins in the temperament section, and she had paid someone else to replace the hammers and shanks already – but that technician didn't try to do anything with the loose pins except use pin tightener.  I replaced a few pins with 6/0, and they went loose as well – the pinblock block was beyond repair.

     

    I finally sat down and said "Mrs. ***, I'm really sorry to have to tell you this, but it is time for your piano to either be completely restored, or to be traded in on another piano."  It was hard news for her, as she was attached to this piano.  I referred her to a local piano dealer, I talked to the dealer about the condition of her piano, and asked him to help her with the price as much as he could.  It helped that she was a piano teacher also, and they came up with a workable arrangement.

     

    She ended up with a very nice new piano. I helped her choose the piano, I did a special prep and voicing for her (paid by the dealer!), and she was ecstatic to have a new instrument to teach on!  She has remained a very loyal customer – and friend!

     

    Don Mannino

     

     




    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2023 18:59
    Basically the pin block on this piano is shot. It has too many cracks in it to hold the tuning pins.

    This piano is not worth salvaging. Tell the customer the piano had reached the end of its life.

    Sent from my iPhone


    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2023 19:39
    Tom,
    I agree with Don and Wim but, I'm curious. I've never had a failure of CA treating pin blocks -- maybe I've been lucky. I've often wondered if those who have had failures are using the wrong CA for the job, or are using expired CA. I always buy CA with an expiration date printed on the container. Also, be sure to use the most viscous (thinnest) CA available and it may not be available at your local hardware store.

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    Roger Gable RPT
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    (425) 252-5000
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2023 20:01
    It looks like the block is shot. I don't think Pin Tight will work. Did you use a good amount of CA glue? (a couple of small bottles for the entire piano?) If, so than the piano would need a new pinblock. I agree with Don and Wim

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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Member
    Posted 01-20-2023 20:58

    Wow! 


    it's only been a few hours and you all have been so helpful. Thank you! I had a feeling.. it was my first time seeing one so bad and was doubtful for whatever reason.

    I actually am a hobby machinist/prop replica maker and CA glue and it's different viscosity is actually something I play with regularly. I successfully got it to wick in but… I admit, I did a single drop per pin just to be safe. I'll try some more quick fixes the next time I visit but I'm also very accepting now that this piano is probably at the end of its life without overhaul.

    nice thing is this customer already had a great upright upstairs haha. I tuned that for them and there was another. 


    I'm curious, has anyone on here (of course they have) used a micrometer on size 4,5,6 tuning pins? The threads are so shallow I'm wondering if we as techs are able to tell when too much wood is gone and going up a size won't do it. 


    If I'm tapping M4 aluminum and something happens, I know how much material I need to get away with M5 or M6 for example. I love these conversations!



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    Tom Delmonte
    Buffalo NY
    (716) 352-5607
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Posted 01-20-2023 21:52
    A single drop per pin isn't enough.

    If the instrument's facing death anyway, you've nothing to loose. If you look carefully you might see that there's a hole on the keyboard side of the pin. Fill up the hole and the surrounds of the pin right the way to the top level with the level of the wrest plank.

    Take the fall board out also. Feel or look under the wrest plank to see if the holes go right through. If so for safety put paper under them whilst doing the CA treatment. You can also turn the instrument upside down and apply CA through the holes.

    I have successfully rescued instruments and indeed the 1819 Broadwood instrument which is used for concerts at Hammerwood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjPDefnPQNU has been rescued with such techniques. The tuning pins are not round so every turn of the pin wants to bite into new wood and leave a hole behind it. CA "maintenance" is the only way of keeping it going without destroying its authenticity.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2023 20:50

    In all likelihood, the pinblock (and piano) is shot.  CA might be your best option. If there is room under the coil, you could tap the pins in a little deeper with a tuning pin setter and hammer.  You can do this in conjunction with CA treatment, but if it's as flat as you said be sure to leave room under the coil so that when you raise the pitch the coil doesn't rest on the plate.  

    I have an elderly neighbor with an old Stieff upright with loose pins and a very cracked bass bridge. For her birthday, I very roughly tuned the mid section so the old hymns she played didn't sound quite as bad. It was the roughest tuning you ever heard, but it sounded better than it did prior and she was ecstatic.



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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2023 21:01
    Tom,

    Yes, the clear consensus is that the pinblock reached the end of its useful life quite some time ago. Your client (and possibly you yourself) is laboring under the false premise that pianos are built to last at least one full human lifetime. Totally wrong and provable. He or she needs to be informed that the ACTUAL intended lifespan was about 30-40 years (especially in the case of a player piano which is actually less). 

    Time to go to the graveyard, sad as that may sound. It is reality. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: My first frightening tuning pin situation

    Member
    Posted 01-20-2023 23:05
    I have saved many pianos grands and uprights by the application of CA glue but from the facts you stated this one needs to be retired. The pinblock must be totally shot when the tuning pins rotate counter clockwise as you describe I have encountered this on several pianos notably an upright donated to a senior center where could could turn the tuning pins with your fingers. A Steinway grand at a high school had bass tuning pins that held but as soon as I got to the low tenor they started to move counterclockwise. An upright in a private home was like the one in the senior center The two uprights received death certificates and the high school was going to get the Steinway rebuilt but I doubt they did

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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    Original Message