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New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

  • 1.  New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Member
    Posted 05-31-2023 12:08

    I'm a new piano technician apprenticing under an RPT here in Denver. I've been working on different temperaments, still haven't tuned a decent one yet, but practicing! 

    I've been trying out the Jack's stack / Cerisano 'Skeleton' from last month's Journal and always find myself asking if my F-A is 7(ish) bps. I've learned some of the things like "From Chicago to New York" - but wondered if I could make more of a visual-tuning aid tool (ETD/strobe tuner-esque?) - so I whipped up a quick app that does just that. Set a beat speed, press start, does the partial beat in time with the watch?



    If anyone wants to try or provide feedback just let me know. I am now currently trying to get the apple watch to play back specific reference tones with little luck, but we'll see.... I'm also happy to move this over to Android watch as well, I just didn't have a watch to test with... 

    It's free! - ‎PianoBPS


    I'd never plan to make money on the app store, but if you like it/use it, consider buying me a coffee instead! 

    -Sean
    littletonpiano.com



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    Sean Weinert
    Littleton CO
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  • 2.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Posted 05-31-2023 14:31

    This looks like it could be helpful. 

    Lots of us have iPhones.  Not so many of us have apple watches.  Have considered producing a version for the iPhone?



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    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Posted 05-31-2023 14:47
    What a brilliant idea! A really helpful app. If it could be an app for iPhone or Android phones rather than watches it would be really great. 

    I tune exclusively unequal temperaments and do so using an ETD to specific settings. An app counting beats would enable aural tuners to be able to replicate my results aurally which would be fantastic.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2023 15:32

    Hi Sean,

    Very clever and useful app that you have come up with. Always glad to see another creative mind join our profession!

    When I was learning to tune aurally, saying the names of cities was never very helpful for me (possibly because I just couldn't spit out the syllables fast enough?). 

    Knowing that the major third F3 to A3 should be at about seven beats per second is it good to be aware of, but the genius of Jack's Stack, in my mind, is that the stacked major thirds that comprise the octave are being tempered evenly.

    F3, A3, C#4, and F4 become the cornerstones of the structure being created. After getting a good balance among the increase in beat rates between the major thirds in the stack, setting the rest of the temperament is finishing work on each of the walls between those cornerstones, regardless of the exact number of beats per second of each of those intervals.

    Best, 

    Alan 



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Posted 05-31-2023 15:47
    Or, you could try the Virgil Smith d to d temperament, whose purpose is have easier counting beats.





    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2023 16:31

    The 3ds&6ths temperament is as old as the hills, and yes, it does everything it claims to. At regular intervals, it shows up in the Journal (and PTG discussion groups); the two articles you mention are just the latest. Congratulations for attempting this aurally. 

    The crucial point is that whatever beat speeds you may come up with, with the 3 thirds inside the F3-F4 temperament octave, they HAVE TO BE confirmed by a contiguous M3d on either side of these (the C#3/F3 or the F4/A4), or even better both of these. A set of 3rds within that single octave can sound as though their beat rates progress at a constant ratio. However, it's entirely possible that the overall spread of beat rates (across these three M3ds) is too slow or too fast. This can (and must) be confirmed by seeing how this spacing of beat rates remains even/proportional once you step outside that single octave. If your C#/F3 3d is too fast then your starting beat rate (the F3/A3 3d) is too slow, and conversely as well. Start over with the prescribed proportional tempering of 3rds, this time including those two outside 3ds in your initial construction.

    Mark Cerisano is creating clever digital tools to familiarize us with the sound of commonly thought 4:5 ratio between contiguous 3ds. Undoubtedly, his next step will be one where we can slide the notes of this skeleton b or # and hear the resulting increase in beat rate speeds.

    One final note. This is not about counting beat rates, but hearing them. 7 bps for the F3/A3 3rd may only work on a fraction of the pianos out there; the same goes for the actual ratio between the 3ds in the skeleton. Your Mileage May Vary. What it comes down to is hearing the smooth (proportional) relationship between the 3rds involved. 



    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-31-2023 16:57

    The other beauty of Jack's Stack is that it identifies THE speed that THAT piano wants F3-A3 to beat at. Once THAT speed is determined, everything else works out like spreading butter (if that makes any sense). 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Member
    Posted 05-31-2023 19:51

    I guess you are referring to the stack of thirds that Jack Stebbins came up with and taught it at PTG conferences with the class title "Let THe Piano Tell You " 

    He was an instructor when I was at North Bennet Street School and was an excellent one.



    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2023 10:23

    While I am an RPT, I can't say I'm an aural tuning expert. (In fact, I'm looking forward to getting a coaching session at convention this year.)

    It occurred to me why so many of us have trouble setting F3-A3: 7 beats can't be subdivided into either 2 or 3. Is there beat rate that can? Sure-D4-F3, which is 8 bps. That can be mentally subdivided into 4 very easily, which can then easily be subdivided into 8.

    So, instead of jumping through hoops to try to get 7 bps, has anyone ever proposed simply tuning D4 between A3 and A4, then tuning F3 from D4? If the F-A is just noticeably slower than the 8 bps of F-D, then you should be very, very close to 7bps.

    Am I reinventing the wheel here, or is my wheel square? It just seems that, of all the ways to go after tuning the A octave, tuning F3 is the hardest for beginners.



    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2023 13:15

    Scott Cole went:

    It occurred to me why so many of us have trouble setting F3-A3: 7 beats can't be subdivided into either 2 or 3. Is there beat rate that can?

    The musicians' subdivision can still accommodate an uneven grouping: one-e-and-a-two-and-a

    Still there's no point in replicating 7bps when it was never anything more than an arbitrary example for instructional purposes. What is really required is a ladder of M3ds whose rungs are proportionately spaced. As mentioned before, it's a starting place, from which the actual beat rate speeds for that piano can be arrived at. 

    One doesn't even need to be able to achieve the 7bps starting point for that 1st 3d. Just get rolling through the iterations, nudging the rungs up and down, and that F3 will undoubtedly get moved. The ability at set a 7pbs 3d for a starting point is far less important than the ability to hear proportionally-spaced beat rates, whatever they may be on that piano.

    And it bears repeating, avoid "inbred" skeletons by making sure the C#3/F3 and F4/A4 that your skeleton works when extrapolated outside of those three 3ds inside the F3/F4 octave.

    For my first 15 years, I tuned the "William Braid White" 4ths&5ths temperament, which depends on inference instead of an initial proof as to the proper inclusion of a piano's inharmonicity. I was delighted, when introduced to the 3ds&6ths scheme, by its handling of inharmonicity's warping of a temperament as its first order of business. I'm happy whenever anyone puts this scheme forth; if you're tuning your temperament aurally, the 3ds&6ths scheme is the only way to go.



    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Member
    Posted 06-01-2023 13:45

    Many years ago I created this page:

    For Tuners: Listening to Beat Rates. Illustrating the beats of major thirds from A2 to F4. 

    I don't know if this might help, but I doubt it can hurt.

    Cheers

    Jason Kanter



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    Jason Kanter
    Lynnwood WA
    (425) 830-1561
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Member
    Posted 06-01-2023 15:49

    Jason, this site is IMMENSELY helpful - thank you for providing these kinds of resources!!



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    Sean Weinert
    Littleton CO
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2023 06:55

    This is awesome!  Thanks for sharing.

    Paul

     




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  • 14.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2023 07:53
    Jason, this is a great tool, but the F3 - A3 is muted. It seems to be the only 
    interval that is. I can't seem to unmute it on the link you provided. 




    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2023 07:55
    Okay, never mind my last comment. I just closed and reopened the link an it's no
    longer muted. Thanks for the link.




    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2023 10:17

    Amazingly cool tool! Thanks Jason. I spent the morning listening and my wife was like, "Dude, you gotta get your #$% to a convention and get this out of your system!" 😉



    ------------------------------
    Jude Reveley, RPT
    President
    Absolute Piano Restoration, Inc.
    Lowell, Massachusetts
    978-323-4545
    www.absolute-piano.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2023 13:31
    Jack Stebbins taught some great tuning classes over the years. He's right when he says, "Let the piano tell you." Better pianos will provide clearer guidance and if you follow along, you'll get a great result. Lessor pianos will demand greater compromise and tell you, "You better make that F3/A3 wider or my F3/C4 is really going to be screaming with beats." So what do you do? Do you listen, or do you move the C4? Compromise. Some fifths are raucous at the 6/4 coincident partial, so you may have to give a wider berth to calm down a recalcitrant interval. Discovering which note of an interval to change is part of the game, and part of why I continue to love tuning. The piano really does talk to you. 

    Other temperament thoughts:

    1. Stick with a temperament sequence long enough to really learn it. Some beginners seem to think that if they're having problems, the best course is to just change their sequence. I tutored tuning at several conventions and I saw some really weird sequences that didn't really work very well. I didn't think it was my job to advocate for one particular sequence, but I tried to point out ways of improving their results. Regardless of the temperament sequence there are good tests and checks to steer you. Use them all.  If you want to use Jack's stack, that's fine unless you're really struggling with hearing thirds. If you want to use the old Braid-White sequence, that's fine, but it's heavy on fifths/fourths. There are many others. Working with a mentor can steer you to a sequence that will work for you. Know your strengths and go with what you hear best. And after a few months or years, try another sequence-for fun! But, if you haven't mastered the sequence by knowing what you've tuned and what comes next, you're in trouble.

    2.  Good tuning technique doesn't stand too long on one note or hop among notes too much without really listening. Spending too long doesn't provide the context of the note in the sequence. And time is wasted.  Bouncing around may be worse. It not only can waste time, but it creates frenetic activity that doesn't focus and leads to a superficial and inaccurate hearing. 

    3. Seven beats per second is not at all sacred! Close but no cigar! You don't really know what the F3-A3 third is supposed to be until you've tuned several other notes. Sometimes it takes tuning all 12 notes of a temperament to get a final F3/A3 setting. No two pianos are alike. The manufacturing process creates individual instruments with slight variations in bridge placement, inharmonicity, etc. Those minor variations have to be reconciled. Sometimes a major third sounds good, but fifths may not be clean. Something has got to give.

    4. Ultimately the beginning tuner needs to give up on the idea that you can get the first interval perfect and then go to the next interval and get that perfect and so on until the last interval of the temperament results in a perfect final result. Temperament tuning doesn't work like that. We need a good temperament sequence, but there's always an element of incompleteness and surprise, until the final temperament note is tuned.  None of the 12 notes of a sequence is absolute until you've gotten through all 12 notes. As you add notes, the checks help to point out where you might not have guessed right on the first few notes, but you can't belabor each note too long. But, you can't bounce around frantically. That's where the piano is telling you something. Are you listening?






    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2023 07:57

    Well summed up, Richard. 

    I've always thought that the reason aural tuners didn't quickly opt for the advantages of the 3ds&6ths scheme was the speed of the beat rates involved being much faster than the 4ths&5ths of the William Braid White scheme. The late and sorely-missed David Anderson would be an example of this. (The only reason White's name is on that scheme is that he published it in a book and that book has endured.) Sean's and Jason's beat rate simulators are a great aid in getting familiar and comfortable with these speeds.

    Yes, there are plenty of poorly scaled pianos which confound this scheme (like Baldwin spinets and even their 45" 243), but truth be told, ETDs, for all their mathematical efficiency, really have no better answer. The only real solution is to split the error between the 3ds and the 5ths (and to ignore what's happening at the 5ths' 6"4 level).



    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Member
    Posted 06-01-2023 10:54

    There are some really great responses here and I am always fascinated by how much knowledge you all have!

    Porting this to an iPhone/iOS build would be very simple and would be happy to release it if there's interest - it's simply an image flashing so many times within a second... 

    Here's a quick video of how it works (I know nothing about editing so it's kindof weird, but by the end you get the idea): https://youtu.be/-llH-o0_uR0

    The goal isn't necessarily COUNTING beats - the goal is to give yourself a target. Particularly on that first pass. If I can get 90% of my temperament in a 10-15 minute first pass, I can refine with checks. I find the flashing on my wrist to give my brain a baseline speed to shoot for. 

    It's worth noting that I don't really expect a tuner to use this tool for long. Hopefully in the next few months these things will be cemented in my brain - but any help to get there is welcome!



    ------------------------------
    Sean Weinert
    Littleton CO
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2023 10:11

    Here's an idea for internalizing the sound of 7 bps (actually, I think if you hear it enough you can practically memorize it, just like most people have memorized the interval of one second) and you don't need special software.

     The Apple Watch comes with a memo recorder, as do all their devices. Fine tune a piano with an ETD, then simply record F-A, or any of the other intervals you want to listen to, including a stack of thirds.

    if you own several Apple devices, the sound file can synchronize to all of them, so you can listen on an iPad, through headphones, or even on a desktop if you want better sound quality.

    Conduct your own experiment and try it on various sizes of pianos-can you hear a difference in beat rates? I tried this myself yesterday with a 6' Petrof. The sound was very clear (I muted outside strings).

    This is why I think even beginners should have a professional-level ETD, especially if they don't have a mentor hovering over them at every tuning.



    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: New piano technician, made an Apple Watch beat speeds app

    Member
    Posted 06-02-2023 11:28

    Thanks, that's a great idea! I'm actually using Jason Kanter's beat speed recordings listed above and they're great! 

    I'm no luddite, but I'm actually becoming more anti-ETD the more I dive into these learnings. Aural tuning is fascinating! I'm purposefully shifting out of software development and into this profession to remove so much technology from my life (despite just making an apple watch app, ha!)

    My goals are to do this profession acoustically (holistically? I don't know the word I'm looking for...)  - and relying on an ETD is no way to do that, nor is it the most realistic path to passing my RPT exam. I fear ETDs within this first few months become a crutch, not a tool. 

    Just some .02

    -Sean



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    Sean Weinert
    Littleton CO
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    Original Message