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New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

  • 1.  New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-16-2023 23:46

    I've been working with a client who is a musician and scientist/engineer.  He became interested in tuning his own piano, and uses PianoScope.  The author of PianoScope is Frank Illenberger, and these two gentlemen have been collaborating in the past few days in making improvements to the app.  Specifically, Frank has produced a beta version which introduces a time delay window which isolates a specific portion of the impact time and frequency envelope of a hammer blow in milliseconds.  This window has a selection range from 100 to 1000 milliseconds so that the tuner can see what the frequency is during the selected time frame and freezes it.  We have all heard that while tuning we should tune on the decay in the lower registers, and tune on the attack in the higher registers.  This new feature provides a new insight into the tuning process, as one can see exactly where the pitch actually is at any given moment, up to one second after the initial blow of the hammer.  It also gives a visual display of the coupling effect of all three strings struck at once versus the pitch of each string individually, thus lowering the pitch a slight amount.  Being able to freeze-frame the time/frequency display holds an amazing view of what we all know, but which zeros it in to makes the tuning process much more precise than previously possible.  Here is a video made by my client Steven Norsworthy:

    Piano Tuning Using PianoScope Beta With New 'Freeze-After-Delay' Concept and Method

    If you have not seen the PianoScope app, you will see it in action in this video.  There is a main indicator, a red line, which tracks the pitch of the string in real time, as well as a "strobe" effect in the background which amplifies the pitch indicator.  The new indicator is a white line independent of the other red line, which appears after striking the note and remains still.  This "freezes" the pitch after the selected millisecond interval. 

    I invite discussion on the topic, and any corrections or suggestions about the video itself. 



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2023 08:36
    Paul, 
    Thanks for sharing. That's fantastic.  I wonder if other apps can update to simulate. 
    Gary





  • 3.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2023 10:58

    I watched both videos. I marveled at the second one (that finally we get to witness the attack phase), but was not convinced by the first one (proposing that it's the attack where we should make our judgements about the tuning). I can believe that there are some technicians who have the speed of response to decide what a string needs in 0.5 seconds; among all of us, threre's an endless variety about how to tune. But as a practical matter, were I one of these people, I think I'd still wish to base my reaction not on the chaos of the attack (BTW, who's behavior varies significantly with the force of impact) instead what it settles out to for the after-prompt sound. It would be like basing your expectation that your toddler would grow up to be a responsible, happy citizen, only on the frequency and power of their tantrums. 



    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2023 14:23

    I feel Bill Ballard is dead on with his thoughts.

    I personally find tuning on the attack is a bad idea.  I tune for many upper level concerts where clarity is achieved by avoiding the attack.  The beauty of an artist performing in a small venue performing at a pianissimo level is very striking.  If that piano is tuned on the attack the beauty is gone throughout the dynamic range.  The change of the pitch from a harder blow can be used by the artist also, but without the attackless tuning the beauty of pianissimo music is gone.  Plus using "ghosting" to tune very clean unisons is a real problem if you tune on the attack.

    Just my 2 cents.



    ------------------------------
    Tim Coates RPT
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 5.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Posted 02-17-2023 12:47

    I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

    This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

    But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

    Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

    Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2023 19:42

    Hi Ed:

    I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

    Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

    It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Posted 02-18-2023 08:22

    Paul:

    I've used PianoScope since its early days. Frank kindly made the display more adjustable in response to my request. 

    I especially like being able to adjust the display to the tonal "noisiness' of the piano. For example, you can adjust the "line" indicator to drop out when the pitch is within, say 0.5 cents but continue to adjust the pin using the strobe for, say, a very slow upward drift. On a fine piano, I might set the line for 0.2 cents. On a weary piano with lots of string noise, perhaps at 1 cent. I will continue to work with the strobe display, but the line has told me I'm in the ballpark.

    Being able to adjust the thickness of the red line, the scale of the display and the strobe for speed and fuzziness helps me with some visual perception problems. I think we all have our perceptual quirks, and the adaptability of PianoScope helps us find the display that minimizes visual strain.

    As I am retired I don't have many opportunities to use PianoScope, but I can say it is also very adaptable to harpsichord tuning.



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-18-2023 08:53

    Hi Ed:

    I had no idea about the "drop out" of the indicator.  I read some of your comments about Pianoscope some time ago, which piqued my interest.  I had just installed PianoMeter, but thought it was good enough so I didn't look into it.  Later when my client started using Pianoscope, and was getting really stellar results, he convinced me to at least get a trial version to try it out.  He practically twisted my arm.  All of the apps out there are excellent choices, but this one stands out in my mind because of the ease of use and all of the information you can get while tuning. 

    Thanks very much for your comments.



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-18-2023 08:41

    I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

    The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

    The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

    When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

    Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

    The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

    --Cy--



    ------------------------------
    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Fairfax, VA
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-18-2023 17:08

    I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

    After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

    He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

    We had a good chat. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-18-2023 18:12
    All

    I’ve had this conversation (about absolutely perfect unisons not sounding as good as unisons that are out a tiny amount) with many top notch technicians. Here are some things I’ve gleaned and some bits of info from years of experience.

    1. At least one Journal article from maybe 60+ years ago said to put the first two strings as perfect as possible, then put the third string to where the “timbre thickens” but does not beat. I haven’t been able to find that article in again. Maybe you techies can find it.

    2. My first mentor (born in 1898 died 1996) told me the same thing, and demonstrated that to me. He tuned several notes, and I measured them with my Sanderson 1, as well as listened carefully and counted beats. To the best of my ability at the time, I discovered nearly every string he tuned “out” (now that is my word. He said they “correct”) were somewhere between .1 and .3 cents off from the others. Besides using the Sanderson’s lights, I found that the two strings would beat in about 4 to 5 seconds to do a full cycle. By that time the volume had diminished enough that you could barely hear it complete the beat. He claimed it was “pure, but better than a dead sounding unison. It has life.” His words remember.

    3. I had a concert artist tell me he wanted more “bloom” in the notes. Remembering my mentors admonition to put one string out (again, my word) I tuned the first two dead on (SAT) then made the third string about .2 out. Now that is very hard to do! It was as good as I could anyway. The artist nearly jumped up and down with excitement. “That’s what I want!”

    4. Upon discussing this topic with Richard Davenport he laughed and said “There’s a saying that goes ‘Tunings always sound better on the second day’”.

    I hope this adds to the discussion. I tend to tune everything as pure as I possibly can, hoping Richard was right.

    Jim Busby




    Sent from my iPhone




  • 12.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-18-2023 19:31
    You might be interested in reading the articles about unisons on the Education Hub in the unison segment of the beginning Tuning Curriculum. Scroll down and you will find links to nine articles on the topic. Those were the ones I selected from 63 hits searching "unisons" on the Journal index.

    Virgil Smith, of course, was one who advocated most strongly for "voicing unisons" (tuning them to make them 'sound the best' in terms of bloom, sustain, etc. In describing this in his autobiography, he noted that tunings done like that didn't last very long.

    If you can tune every unison within 0.1¢ and then "detune" one of the strings to be 0.2¢ off from the other two (and be stable), my hat's off to you. My take is that the real struggle is over stability of all the strings of the piano. No matter how carefully and skillfully you tune, a retuning after a rehearsal will result in a few notes having a bit of a "wowr" in them. Everything may be quite acceptable in that condition, no complaints, but some movement has taken place.

    My take is that there may be a few isolated situations where it may make sense to "detune" a unison enough to give a particular note more sustain, if that note sticks out for being dead for some reason (maybe the note is over a rib or something), but for my purposes as clean and stable as I can achieve is the gold standard. I have yet to have complaints about the results. I do get occasional complaints about fairly small deviations from clean. 

    About tuning to the attack, use of various free and reasonably precise tuning apps shows clearly that the initial pitch read is significantly different (sharp) from the decay pitch. When I was beta-testing  OnlyPure (which lacked a buffering for the display and had a noticeable time lag between sound and display), the initial visual was way off what happened subsequently. High speed videography shows that it takes quite a few microseconds before the string settles into a steady pattern.

    Attack includes considerable noise (percussive non-pitch sound), the chaos of the string resolving its initial deformation into a predictable pattern of partials, and a delay in response of the bridge/soundboard. In my experience, it makes no sense to aim for the initial 0.5 seconds or less (though it is nice if your ETD will give you information real time about that initial onset of pitch). Pitch within this narrow a parameter only becomes significantly audible when it is sounding with the pitch of another note, and that relationship doesn't become apparent until at least nearly one second into the sound envelope. 

    (BTW, looking at the visual read out of intervals in an audio application like Ocenaudio, as I described in my articles "Measuring How We Tune" recently, is an interesting way to confirm this: the regular patterns of beats don't begin until after a few tenths of a second).

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com






  • 13.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-20-2023 11:29

    Jim,

    "Now that is very hard to do!"  Yes, precisely!

    I have come to the same conclusion as your mentor and do essentially the same thing. It took me about a year and a half of deliberate effort to be able to consistently accomplish this feat (i.e. make it "correct"). The one thing I add to it is that after tuning the third string I will often go back to the middle string and tweak it to whatever "sweet spot" I can find (if I can find one). 

    This method has the additional benefit of generally overcoming the tendency of the pitch to drop a little upon completion of the unison, so I do not have to worry so much about tuning the first string a little sharp in anticipation (as Virgil spoke of) as I accomplish what I want in the process of tuning the unison. 

    It is extremely difficult to do this accurately and stably, therefore putting the lie to those who have attempted to accuse me of "detuning" or being "sloppy" in tuning unisons (which is a very common reaction I've found within our circles in the tuning world). It quite the OPPOSITE of detuning. It is more like "retuning" with a purpose. And although it doesn't work on all pianos it's a great tool to have in the toolbox. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-24-2023 20:03

    Jim,

    I would take Richard's comment to you about unisons sounding better a day after being tuned (and possibly one or two other things he has ever uttered ;-) with a grain of salt.  Here's why…

    What happens as a tuning ages over time is random and arbitrary compared to the intentional and systematic approach that was described so well by Doctor of Pianos Peter Grey. To a certain extent, one can voice a note by how they tune the unison. Tuning for projection, sustain and overall better tonal perception is what Davenport himself and many others practice.

    Best,

    Alan



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-24-2023 23:49
    Alan, it was certainly tongue in cheek. Great saying though, along with “Sir, please don’t play the piano for at least an hour” (…So I cash the check and leave town!)

    Cheers!
    J




  • 16.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-25-2023 12:17
    Alan,

    You said: I would take Richard's (Davenport's) comment to you (Jim Busby) about unisons sounding better a day after being tuned...with a grain of salt. 

    My response has always been to go for absolutely clean unisons. Here's why: If you tell tuners that a slightly detuned unison is a better unison, you open the door to sloppy tuning, IMHO. Instead of methodical detuning there's the temptation to say "That's good enough. We're supposed to leave some beating."

    Secondly, getting an esthetically pleasing result initially puts the unison at a place that may slip farther out of tune, because it's already out of tune. So now you have a bad unison after a day or two.

    Thirdly, in a concert setting the piano may drift to the pleasing esthetic so that by the end of the concert the piano actually sounds better.

    Fourthly, it's tough enough to get a great unison let alone tweak the out-of-tune-ness for minimal esthetic benefit. Maybe with ETDs tweaking in a systematic fashion might help. I'm doubtful.

    In short, a stable clean unison may be a dead unison, but not for long. 

    Richard West, Retired Curmudgeon 





  • 17.  RE: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2023 08:25
    Greetings,
       I have been told (by a Steinway artist) that my tunings seem to sound better a day after I tuned her piano, and I have also been told (by the dean at Vanderbilt) that he had never heard a note go out of tune in the 30 years he was there.  These may be related, as I always tune as clear a unison as possible.  It may have developed from the years in recording studios, where all the unisons have to be alike and they all have to be extremely clear. 

       My rationale is that the closer I start to the center of the road, the longer it will take to go in the ditch. 
    The Weinreich Effect, which is what we are talking about here, (see "Coupled motion of piano strings") will  eventually show itself due to the piano's combination of tension and compression in the sounding structure creating an unavoidable instability in real time environmental changes. I get the most consistent results from starting all unisons as dead on as possible. 
    Regards,