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New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

  • 1.  New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2023 22:33

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owHb8D-sVOg

    This Pianoscope app is a game-changer.  There are many ways to tune a piano, aurally or with an ETD.  Pianoscope has now evolved to become much more than just another tuning app.  I used this today to tune a Samick SG172, and the result was stunning.  I didn't actually have to tune the unisons by ear, though I checked them to see if I missed something or made a mistake.  You can literally tune by eye and get an extremely clean tuning, especially  tuning unisons.  We all know tuning unisions is a critical skill, and difficult for new tuners to master.  Pianoscope with the freeze-after display is so accurate and easy that anyone with a little skill can produce professional results in a very short period of time.  Frank Illenberger and Steven Norsworthy have perfected this display capability daily over several weeks, so it's even easier to use and more immune to false beats and resonances than before.  Steven has used his engineering skills and expertise in audio and electronics (plus he's a professional musician and trombonist) to optimize the time components of the attack phase.  This eliminates the interference of the hammer impact noise, and ignores the resonances and beating sounds which develop later.  The result is that one can tune without having to subject your ears to the loud sounds of impacting strings with a hammer and trying to determine whether your string is sharp or flat.  Your only concentration is how to manipulate the tuning hammer to achieve a stable pitch while viewing the freeze display.

    As we have seen in the last 30 years with the advent of the Accutuner, and all the software apps, a revolution in piano tuning has occurred.  It's no longer necessary to learn aural tuning to be able to tune a piano, though we know that it takes a lot more than an ETD to produce a clean, stable tuning.  Now with the latest version of Pianoscope, a new tuner can produce a result as good as any professional without having to master tuning unisons aurally.  This is usually the downside of new tuners trying to learn the craft.  You can get the pitch, but if the unisons aren't good, you haven't arrived yet.  In some cases, a client with a good ear ends up with a shoddy tuning and blames it on his ETD. 

    Pianoscope may actually be a boon for the PTG because new tuners could get up to speed with their tunings and begin tuning for hire in a much shorter time.  Of course, the other skills of regulation and repair are very important too, so they will need to learn that.  Learning to tune aurally is also an important skill, not that I think that skill will be obsolete or unimportant.  With this new innovation, we can be confident that new members will have the ability to tune accurately and be more likely to succeed in this business and not lose confidence and quit Guild membership.  Just a thought..



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Member
    Posted 03-12-2023 16:39

    I have to disagree.

    A new tuner does not have the experience or control over the hammer to move the pin accurately and minutely. They will flex the pins unknowingly. Because of the variety of pin blocks and tuners who have ruined the holes by flagpoling, they will have stability problems. You can't call it a tuning if the next day after playing, it needs tuning again. There is still a learning curve to use a tuning hammer and how to adjust for very tight pins or weak ones. Just the muscle learning takes some time. 

    Then there is the time it takes to fix wires they broke. Many breakages can be avoided with experience but you can't get the developed feel of turning the pin without tuning many pianos. They aren't all grands. 

    Someone said you have to tune 600 pianos before you are ready. I think that should be different pianos but maybe only 400. 

    And yes a good ETD can really speed up the process but a good video and the right tools do not make you a mechanic. 



    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    (209) 770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Posted 03-12-2023 22:54

    This app and really all tuning apps, "Put the cookies on the lower shelf." In other words, they make tuning a piano more accessible. I think that's a good thing when there's a shortage of piano tuners in most parts of the country and probably the world. An app will help a new tuner to develop control over the hammer quickly and accurately. This improvement on PianoScope seems very promising to me.

    Keith - I've read others talking about ruining the pinblock by flag-poling the pin. What would be the evidence for that? Have you tuned a piano that had tight pins and then tuned it after an inexperienced tuner tuned it and the pins were then loose? I'm interested in how you would know that loose pins were the result of an inexperienced tuner and not just a poorly built one or old one. 



    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    www.thattuningguy.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Posted 03-13-2023 09:55

    The feedback available from state of the art tuning apps makes it possible to test and learn good quality tuning pin management very quickly, assuming the beginner has the intention to learn these skills.

    The larger question I ask is "What constitutes professional understanding and use of advanced piano tuning apps?"

    Presumably a competent 21st century tuner does something more than open the app to default settings and bang away.

    Should PTG be imagining a new tuning exam, not modeled on the aural tuning exam, but modeled on professional understanding and use of 21st century tuning apps?



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-13-2023 16:45

    I think the PTG should be imagining an exam that separates practical tuning from tuning theory. This would allow examinees to tune a piano by any means at their disposal and be tested separately on their knowledge of the acoustical basis of tuning, analysis, etc.  

    I also think the practical tuning exam should more closely resemble actual tuning in the field.



    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-13-2023 14:31

    I'd have to disagree as well.  ETDS/Apps are cool.  I have played with a few apps and my go to for diagnosing, pitch raising, and alternate temperament tunings is the SAT, but I remain an aural tuner.  

    Think about it this way just because I have fancy camera with nice a lens that can take automagic photos doesn't make me a photographer.  I am not saying that photographer should use old style film that they develop themselves but the fact that they have learned and honed skills to take advantage of every feature of that fancy camera, light sources, settings, framing etc etc etc.  The digital camera is JUST a tool.   

    I personally don't care how anyone tunes as long as they do their best and tune well.  However the apps and devices are JUST tools.  Tools to aid us in diagnosing, get thru badly scaled small pianos, pitch raise with more accuracy, training and so on. 

     "It's no longer necessary to learn aural tuning to be able to tune a piano..."  Is an invalid statement. 

    Remember this:

    The skills don't come from the app, no matter how good the app is. 

    The results don't come from the app.

    Both of those come from technicians regardless of if there use an app or not.  



    ------------------------------
    Gregory Cheng, RPT
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Posted 03-13-2023 14:48
    I come from around 39 years experience of learning how not to tune and how to do it better ;-) 

    For me better means not equal temperament and not necessarily tuning by ear. Tuning by ear will inevitably cause one to move pins unnecessarily in comparison to working with an ETD which will indicate spot on and not having to be moved, and or which way a movement is required. By using a precise tool one can minimise numbers of movements and bring greater stability to the instrument.

    In my opinion it's not whether one tunes by ear or machine that matters but the result. In using a machine it's important to know and understand what the machine is doing and why and tuning the instrument, not the strings. The machine must be the tool of the technician, not his master. 

    Whilst I don't tune by ear and tune by machine, I check aurally and check that I'm getting the machine to listen to the right things. I'll be using a mixture of what the machine wants to tell me and what my ears want to tell me, and likewise on unisons sometimes I'll do all three strings individually and others by ear. To some extent it's dependent upon how the instrument is behaving and how it wants to respond. All instruments are different and to have hard and fast answers is less than wholly constructive.

    A few years ago someone with an axe to grind and a tendency to consuming alcohol spread rumours behind my back. I didn't know what the criticism was but thrashed around to see what it might be. Angle from which one held and tuned with the lever was a possibility. Kind members here persuaded me that it really doesn't matter - the wood of the tuning plank is either strong enough for it not to matter or it's not strong enough. However one can apply contrary forces within one's tuning movement to counteract a flagpolling tendency if a 30 degree angle from 12 o'clock is more comfortable, if appropriate, but the real reason for flagpoling is too high a position of the coils on the pins. Not all restrung instruments are restored to the original manufacturers' standards. Of course those instruments require attention to technique but it's a matter of experience. 

    Best wishes

    David P






  • 8.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-13-2023 17:05

    With all due respect for Mr. Cheng, (I tuned strictly aurally for 32 years), while I agree that that there are many more skills required to deliver a good tuning on a piano but when it comes to pitch placement, modern devices are more than adequate for that part of the task. Not only that but they can perform any variety of tuning styles, both ET and UT on demand which is beyond the ability of most aural tuners.

    It should be remembered that the tuning exam tests for basic competency, not concert quality excellence. 



    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Posted 03-17-2023 09:39

    Paul, I watched the video and this is really cool to see.  I was expecting something slightly different, so I'll share an experiment that I tried.

    What you and the video claim - psychoacoustics, attack/tone stages, interfering resonances in decay - 100% matches up with my extensive background in audio engineering. However, given that the video uses a quite nice instrument, I wonder how this approach might otherwise perform on an old and poorly stung piano suffering from sicker beats than a Skrillex concert.  A few times, I've found the fundamental pitch of left/right unisons to not match the center unison, after minimizing beats at best I could.
    ...Not that this thought really matters, because the software is surely not being developed to cater to pianos whose next move is to the city dump.

    My actual thought/concern is this: since all unisons are being tuned by Pianoscope individually, and nowhere combined (unless checking aurally), there is room for minor slippage or compression over the tuning process that could render the unisons out of tune.  Perhaps tuning "unisons as you go" minimizes that potential, as well as actually checking the tuning afterwards.  This of course is a minor issue, and akin to tuning with an ETD and making minor aural adjustments - totally within the realm of practicality.

    What I want to share is a somewhat successful experiment at tuning unisons with FFT, Fast Fourier Transform.  Simply, it visualizes the frequency spectrum of sound, thus graphically depicting how in-or-out of tune two (or more) simultaneous unisons are.  This is not at all (yet) a refined technique but I think it has potential, primarily by way of enabling those with compromised hearing to articulately compare and tune unisons – the same goal as what you described with Pianoscope.




  • 10.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-17-2023 10:25

    Robin, Very interesting tuning experiment/demonstration! It deserves a thread of its own. So the FFT program is FFT Plot (at least that's the only similar app on Apple's App Store)?

    I have to admit my brain glazes over when Fourier this & that gets discussed by ETD developers. Is there a good tutorial for on FFT stuff for non-audio experts? 

    On the whimsical side, while listening to your fast-forward tuning sequence I was fondly recalling playing Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music on college radio back when it was released. Try laying a couple tracks of the fast tuning sequence over each other and you may have an avant-gard piece to match his effort.



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-17-2023 10:59

    Hi Robin:

    This is very interesting.  Nice video demonstration, though I admit I don't know how to read the FFT display to see how you're tuning the unisons.  TuneLab has a display which shows two separate frequencies in a spectral display.  But the author admits it's not really meant to tune unisons.  I would have to get that FFT app that you're using and play with it. 

    What is now happening behind the scenes with Pianoscope is that the author is collaborating with Steven Norsworthy, myself, and other beta testers to implement features that improve the display indicators.  With the freeze time domain indicator, a sample of the piano sound is detected and measured after a small time delay to eliminate the hammer noise.  Then a time slice is selected, 800ms, 700ms, or 600ms, etc., down to 50ms.  Then the frequency is displayed on the screen as a greyish white line and held steady.  The red line is displayed in real time (except for a small time delay in processing and drawing on screen), so it's constantly moving as the pitch changes.  As we know, at the initial blow, the pitch is momentarily sharp, and then settles down.  By selecting a time window, the freeze display can show where the pitch was during the selected time slice, relative to the target ("zero") on the display.  If you choose a 200ms (.2 seconds) after impact, the freeze display will indicate what the frequency was during that time. 

    Pianoscope is a tool, just as any app for tuning.  Without the freeze display, it's a very accurate tool, but tuning string by string I have to tune unisons by ear, as I have always done.  Since the introduction of the freeze display, I have eliminated having to do this.  But this requires one to separately mute each unison string individually, which takes time.  The author is not currently envisioning the app to tune simultaneously two strings unmuted as you are doing here. 

    I should do this same experiment, tuning a piano by "eye" with sound blocked, and see what is the result.  As it is now, I use musicians ear plugs to reduce the volume to save my ears from the loud impact sound.  Previously, I had been using mics inside the piano, and wearing headphones, using compressors and limiters to protect my sensitive ears.  Using the mic system, I was able to hear very intimately the sound of the unisons and I could do a very good job.  I no longer have to listen while tuning the unisons, though I do hear them because I'm not blocking the sound completely.  While tuning unisons by ear, you have to wait for a time to allow any phasing to appear.  I know there are tuners who can claim to hear out-of-tune-ness within a half second.  I'm not one of those.  There is a professional pianist who insists that unisons must remain pure for many seconds.  With Pianoscope, and of course good tuning technique, you can do that repeatedly.  False beats are of course more difficult, as you can't tune them out.  I'm doing my best unison tuning ever, after 30+ years tuning.  I'm only concentrating on setting the pins to the precise frequency, not wracking my brain to determine whether the strings are sounding in unison or not. 

    One thing that affects unison tuning is when there is phasing due to unlevel strings and hammers that aren't mated to the strings.  You can't tune it out, though if you tune individual strings they're all good by themselves.  I've wasted lots of time chasing perfect unisons by ear, only to realize I need to do leveling and mating to cure the problem and make it better.  So, yes, you do have to check by ear when you're done.

    Thanks very much for your video demonstration.  If you can do perfect unisons with the FFT with two strings unmuted, I'm all over it.  What you were able to do so far is very good.  Keep going, and let's see if it can be done even better.  If you can describe exactly what you're seeing on the screen with the FFT as it's displaying the sound, I would find it helpful.

    Best, Paul



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Posted 03-17-2023 14:37

    Hey Patrick and Paul, thanks for your replies.  I'll attach a video demonstrating what I was doing with FFT, which should explain it better than anything I can write.

    I'm using an app that was called Analyzer which cost $20, but it's been updated to separate out the features, and you can buy the FFT portion for $10, and yes it's called FFT Plot now, you found the right one!  I presume they've made some improvements to its readout capabilities too.  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fft-plot/id569468015

    (Metal Machine Music - cool!  I'll give it a more comprehensive listen soon.  Perhaps applying this to my tuning video like you suggested could earn me some real kudos with the experimental music department that didn't think highly of me.)

    For what it's worth, I'm not doing anything very "advanced" with the FFT, just using it to show warbles of sound which help indicate if I'm (hopefully) in-tune.

    I love that Pianoscope has selectable time-windows for the sampling, as well as the real-time overlay.  In the video I just posted, the sustained fundamental pitch is not terribly stable, and I can easily see having that sample window help to establish a more-consistent distribution of fundamental inaccuracies, rather than me chasing each note differently through the strobe spinner as the pitch changes over the typical longer exposure.

    As you could see and hear in this video, the resulting unison was not very clean - a reality of 1) physical acoustical reality, and 2) a not great piano.  As with learning any new skill it would probably take some practice to implement dependably. But I think one could learn to decipher the "reality" behind what the FFT shows; to filter the noise, and achieve an ideal unison.  I can just as well imagine that having little-to-no aural judgement over noisy unisons with Pianoscope would actually result in an overall cleaner tuning, especially in the circumstance of this particular piano.

    FFT would likely show mating/phasing issues, but I don't think it would help diagnose that issue; rather it would just look out of tune.  So hearing is still absolutely essential!

    I'd like to also give it a shot, using Pianoscope to produce unisons - hopefully I can get them as good as you are, with a bit of practice. 

    I tuned with my ears blocked mainly as a "control" for the experiment.  While doing this, I immediately realized that a large part of my setting the pin relies on hearing the sound.  Perhaps it's placebo that I depend on the sound, but the whole thing felt like an out of body experience.  But since we CAN hear, I'd recommend trying out FFT while still listening, because the two together can help inform better.  But from behind your musicians earplugs, you can stay safely isolated while hearing and seeing your adjustments.  Perhaps you could even step up to the next higher filter (are you on -9's or -15's?) with FFT and still feel like you're getting all the information. 

    Regarding your microphone/headphone hearing system, Paul, I loved the write-up about it in the Aug and Nov Journals last year, very creative and functional! There is a new-ish product that achieves pretty much the exact same thing, but more portable and overall less expensive (nice KM183's though!).  If you're interested, I've made a blogpost about it and its benefits specifically to piano tuners, which is why the original video I shared exists.

    Hopefully my followup video here answers the rest of your questions!




  • 13.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2023 17:17

    Paul,

    Your mention of the out of phase issue (caused by unmated strings) is spot on. Since the majority of the unisons in the majority of pianos are in an out of phase condition, I have often thought that those who are doing the "listen to the whole tone" thing, customizing the tuning of each unison, are really tuning to voice out-of-phase so each note is as consistent with the rest as possible. 

    When you are dealing with pianos that are well set up (level strings, square crowns, minimal out of phase), the unisons can all "go on forever," as Jim Coleman Sr. liked to say, and they will sound very consistent without the need for customizing (IOW, you can tune each string with an ETD to as close to zero as feasible and count on good results).

    The caveat is that out of phase isn't the only chaotic variable out there. There is also bleed through of upper partials of other notes, various resonance issues, and of course "false beats" (generally speaking, one string producing more than one pitch due to changing termination), and those also impact how the unison will sound. 

    While I haven't yet had the opportunity to use the pitch freeze function, I can see how it would be a help, particularly with strings that produce a non-steady pitch (ie, cause the ETD to have a "jumpy" display, bouncing back and forth from showing sharp to showing flat). By providing a specific moment in the envelope to focus on, it makes it easier to make a decision. As for whether the particular moment is going to be the optimal one, I guess I'd have my doubts that that would always be the case.

    In the end, listening to unisons has to be the final test. If the note doesn't pass the test, you can go back and examine each string, and see what you might want to do to get improvement. That has been my process for the last nearly 30 years, and it has worked quite well. I can almost always do something (perhaps move the placement of the mic relative to the strings, or just interpret the back and forth and/or intermittent blushing of the RCT display differently). 

    I've done some limited experiment with the Pianoscope interface, and while I like its simplicity - an indicator plus a background strobe - I do find that I seem to get more useful info faster from the RCT display. Partly it is speed of reaction: if I make a tiny move of the pin/string, I can get near instantaneous feedback, which is critical for ensuring stability - and that's the bottom line for any tuning. Probably the fact that the "spinner" is larger and is providing more information in varying ways simultaneously (side to side position, rotation, blush) is a major factor in allowing for a more intuitive cognitive interaction.



    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Member
    Posted 03-18-2023 20:12

    Thank you Fred that was well said. I use the RCT also. I have been using it for many years. 

    Like was said prior,, it's not the app, it's who uses the app. This is just another of many. I will always listen to my unisons and play my pianos. 

    I thought at first this thread was like an advertisement of a product instead of a discussion. Then my name was pulled off the list and I got a text. It was the same links I could have gotten from the list had I desired. I like my RCT.

    I was sent links to videos with a hard sell to watch them. I don't know this guy,, I don't open links like that. Then after I reported the text as spam. I got another, and then even a 3rd one. I guess he was blocked. 

    I'm sorry but I don't want hard sell spam coming from this list. It has never happened before. I hope it doesn't happen again.

    Thanks

    Keith



    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    (209) 770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-18-2023 21:08

    Gentlemen:

    I appreciate your input and discussion of various ETD apps and devices.  I didn't intend my original post to be an infomercial, but only to share my experiences using Pianoscope.  I also do not wish to denigrate the wonderful tuning apps and devices we all know.  All of them enable us to do an excellent job of tuning pianos, even if we have extensive experience doing this by ears alone.  I am of the opinion that aural tuning skills are essential for any professional piano technician.  Becoming a top tier piano technician requires years of practice and skill manipulating the tuning hammer, what to speak of regulation and repair, etc.  What I am trying to describe is the exceptionally precise display capability,  which I'm finding useful in setting almost flawless unisons, string by string.  For most of my tuning career, I used the Accutuner.  You can use it to tune each individual string, but I'm finding this new app helps make my tuning even more precise than before.  "Wait a couple days.."  Well, yes, that's true.  Next time I get back to these pianos I just tuned, I'll know if the tuning holds up.  Meanwhile, I'm enjoying doing the best tunings I've ever done.



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2023 02:20

    Paul,

    I did not take you initial post as any kind of infomercial and think that most technicians would feel likewise and be interested in your observations. I found the initial video quite interesting. Yes, I suppose the initial post might be taken by some as a plug for a product but I was most interested it what you had to say as well as the video. I only started ETD tuning about 3 years ago due to arthritis in my hands after 47 years tuning aurally. But using an ETD has also widened my understanding regarding ETD and also aural tuning. There is a definite learning curve in learning to using any ETD. This learning curve has also been enlightening. Unfortunately, I am a cheapskate so will not consider investing in another expensive app towards the sunset of my career. I went the mid priced route in 2013 on an Ipod, tried a few pitch raises, but hated coordinating my ears and my eyes. I was helping a UTech tune a bunch of pianos and one morning I had a massive arthritis attack in my left wrist and could barely play and octave. I pulled out my Ipod and after 4 pianos my ear/eye coordination issue was behind me. I still have a few clients who do not want ETD tuning and sometimes I forget to ask clients if they have a preference. I suspect I have even lost a few customers when I forgot to ask if they had a preference. Hope all is well with you and keep on tunin!



    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2023 03:35

    Just curious, have you compared this with Pianometer? 
    I admit I'm a technological dolt; yes, I live in the dark ages, but I haven't been able to find Pianoscope anywhere. 

    ddf



    ------------------------------
    [Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
    [Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
    [Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
    [Olympia] [WA]
    [360-515-0119]
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2023 07:55

    If you have an Android, Pianoscoope won't run on it.  It's only for iOS.  Otherwise, it's in the App store.  To take advantage of the freeze feature, you need to be a beta tester.  It works fine without freeze anyway.

    I'm not sure who you're asking about Pianometer, but I'll answer.  I had been using Pianometer before I got Pianoscope.  They both have a very similar set of styles.  Both have pitch raise features which work very well.  Pianoscope pre-measures every note for about 2 seconds, so it takes roughly about 3 minutes before you begin.  PIanometer's display has a lot of information on-screen with the various partials, Pianoscope does not show them unless you want that information, and you can select that option.  Here's the home page where you can see more about it:

    https://pianoscope.app/en

    Although PIanometer works very well, I found that it takes a bit of time for the display to settle and decide if I've hit the target.  I did find that there were some discrepancies sometimes if I go back over the tuning.  I might find a note that's changed, and so I'd definitely want to do my aural checks with it.  Maybe it's just me.  It does make inharmonicity measurements on the fly, so you can stop that if you've already tuned the note before.  I prefer the 'Scope because the readout is very steady and easier to read.  I use the default "Balanced" style, which is a mix which favors a 12th tuning.  Like Pianometer, you can add your flavor of partial weight or just use the default. 

    Using Pianometer, I could not tune accurately enough to do unisons string by string and get a clean result.  But I can with Pianoscope with the freeze display.  I also like the "strobe" feature which adds a very sensitive display of the frequency in the background as you're tuning, and the sensitivity increases as you get very close to the target. So you have three indicators available to have an intimate look at what's happening with the string.  Again, you can select what you want to see, individually or everything at once.

    The above is my own experience and my own subjective opinion of these softwares.  Nothing should be implied other than my own preferences, and I'm not connected financially to either one, though I am a beta tester for Pianoscope.  I spend extra time while tuning, testing new iterations and updates, and receive no compensation for doing so.



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Member
    Posted 03-19-2023 11:59
    Paul,, I did not receive the texts from you. 
    The first text I got had screen shots of my comment about flagpoling and links.
    I forget the name associated with the text but I assumed it was spam or a scam.
    Honestly I'm not sure if it came from the creator of the app but that's who I thought it was from.
    Did anybody else get these texts?





  • 20.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Posted 03-19-2023 12:42

    Hello Keith,

    I am Frank Illenberger, the creator of pianoscope. I did not send you any text messages. I also do not spam forums with advertising. I only post information about the app in my own forum and in a single thread on the pianoworld forum. I am however always happy to answer any questions. 

    Best regards

    Frank Illenberger



    ------------------------------
    Frank Illenberger
    Pianoscope
    Frankfurt am Main
    49-160-8055618
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  • 21.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Member
    Posted 03-19-2023 13:04

    Thank you Frank. 

    It's good that I don't click on links as a general rule until I have checked the links out.

    I guess it was a scammer. 

    Watch out for this. 

    My phone # is visible. I guess I should change that.



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    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    (209) 770-4312
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  • 22.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2023 13:19

    Keith, When you say "text" do you mean an actual text on your cell phone? Or, an email to your cell phone. I only get emails of all daily posts and specific emails on a thread as they come in if I comment in a particular thread. Maybe the additional stuff came after you marked the inital 1st post of the thread and it could have to do with marking the initial post. I have no idea how marking a post is processed. I never get anything on my cell phone.



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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  • 23.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Member
    Posted 03-19-2023 13:51

    This was an actual text to my cell phone. 

    My email account doesn't notify me the way I have things set up. 

    Keith



    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    (209) 770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2023 17:42
    Keith,
    Steven Norsworthy is the person who created the Youtube videos, and who asked Frank Illenberger to add the pitch freeze function to Pianoscope. I gather he has read some of this thread, but has not posted. 

    About three weeks ago, he started writing some emails to a few people who had written on the thread, including Paul McCloud, Peter Gray and me. He presumably pulled our emails from our posts.

    I suspect he did the same with your phone number. Not good web etiquette, certainly could be labelled as spam in the sense of uninvited correspondence. Steve tends to be overly assertive in making claims about his "discovery," but he has also done considerable research and analysis in developing it.

    He is simply an amateur tuner who got interested when trying to tune his own Fazioli concert grand, and has considerable audio engineering background, so he is trying to help solve the problem that presents itself to all of us when using an ETD: the lack of clarity and consistency in what is displayed visually. 

    The visual display mirrors the audio signal, and its "jumpiness" is simply a reflection of the reality of what a piano string and soundboard projects. Much of the challenge in doing fine tuning lies in finding compromises when the signal is unclear, whether doing it aurally of using a visual readout device. 

    I think the notion of a "pitch freeze" is a positive move in the direction of adding information to our interface with the machine, and look forward to having the opportunity to try it out myself.


    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel






  • 25.  RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope

    Posted 03-21-2023 12:05

    I've had the opportunity to try out the "Freeze" option on PianoScope and I think it's a great addition. It's just more information on what's going on in real time and that's a good thing. I think Steve is possibly overstating the helpfulness of the feature but nevertheless it's helpful and is especially handy in the upper register. And, if you don't like the feature, just turn it off. In fact, you have to go pretty deep into the settings to turn it on and off. 



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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    www.thattuningguy.com
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