If you have an Android, Pianoscoope won't run on it. It's only for iOS. Otherwise, it's in the App store. To take advantage of the freeze feature, you need to be a beta tester. It works fine without freeze anyway.
I'm not sure who you're asking about Pianometer, but I'll answer. I had been using Pianometer before I got Pianoscope. They both have a very similar set of styles. Both have pitch raise features which work very well. Pianoscope pre-measures every note for about 2 seconds, so it takes roughly about 3 minutes before you begin. PIanometer's display has a lot of information on-screen with the various partials, Pianoscope does not show them unless you want that information, and you can select that option. Here's the home page where you can see more about it:
Although PIanometer works very well, I found that it takes a bit of time for the display to settle and decide if I've hit the target. I did find that there were some discrepancies sometimes if I go back over the tuning. I might find a note that's changed, and so I'd definitely want to do my aural checks with it. Maybe it's just me. It does make inharmonicity measurements on the fly, so you can stop that if you've already tuned the note before. I prefer the 'Scope because the readout is very steady and easier to read. I use the default "Balanced" style, which is a mix which favors a 12th tuning. Like Pianometer, you can add your flavor of partial weight or just use the default.
Using Pianometer, I could not tune accurately enough to do unisons string by string and get a clean result. But I can with Pianoscope with the freeze display. I also like the "strobe" feature which adds a very sensitive display of the frequency in the background as you're tuning, and the sensitivity increases as you get very close to the target. So you have three indicators available to have an intimate look at what's happening with the string. Again, you can select what you want to see, individually or everything at once.
The above is my own experience and my own subjective opinion of these softwares. Nothing should be implied other than my own preferences, and I'm not connected financially to either one, though I am a beta tester for Pianoscope. I spend extra time while tuning, testing new iterations and updates, and receive no compensation for doing so.
Original Message:
Sent: 03-19-2023 03:34
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
Just curious, have you compared this with Pianometer?
I admit I'm a technological dolt; yes, I live in the dark ages, but I haven't been able to find Pianoscope anywhere.
ddf
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[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]
Original Message:
Sent: 03-19-2023 02:19
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
Paul,
I did not take you initial post as any kind of infomercial and think that most technicians would feel likewise and be interested in your observations. I found the initial video quite interesting. Yes, I suppose the initial post might be taken by some as a plug for a product but I was most interested it what you had to say as well as the video. I only started ETD tuning about 3 years ago due to arthritis in my hands after 47 years tuning aurally. But using an ETD has also widened my understanding regarding ETD and also aural tuning. There is a definite learning curve in learning to using any ETD. This learning curve has also been enlightening. Unfortunately, I am a cheapskate so will not consider investing in another expensive app towards the sunset of my career. I went the mid priced route in 2013 on an Ipod, tried a few pitch raises, but hated coordinating my ears and my eyes. I was helping a UTech tune a bunch of pianos and one morning I had a massive arthritis attack in my left wrist and could barely play and octave. I pulled out my Ipod and after 4 pianos my ear/eye coordination issue was behind me. I still have a few clients who do not want ETD tuning and sometimes I forget to ask clients if they have a preference. I suspect I have even lost a few customers when I forgot to ask if they had a preference. Hope all is well with you and keep on tunin!
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Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299
Original Message:
Sent: 03-18-2023 21:08
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
Gentlemen:
I appreciate your input and discussion of various ETD apps and devices. I didn't intend my original post to be an infomercial, but only to share my experiences using Pianoscope. I also do not wish to denigrate the wonderful tuning apps and devices we all know. All of them enable us to do an excellent job of tuning pianos, even if we have extensive experience doing this by ears alone. I am of the opinion that aural tuning skills are essential for any professional piano technician. Becoming a top tier piano technician requires years of practice and skill manipulating the tuning hammer, what to speak of regulation and repair, etc. What I am trying to describe is the exceptionally precise display capability, which I'm finding useful in setting almost flawless unisons, string by string. For most of my tuning career, I used the Accutuner. You can use it to tune each individual string, but I'm finding this new app helps make my tuning even more precise than before. "Wait a couple days.." Well, yes, that's true. Next time I get back to these pianos I just tuned, I'll know if the tuning holds up. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying doing the best tunings I've ever done.
------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 03-18-2023 20:11
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
Thank you Fred that was well said. I use the RCT also. I have been using it for many years.
Like was said prior,, it's not the app, it's who uses the app. This is just another of many. I will always listen to my unisons and play my pianos.
I thought at first this thread was like an advertisement of a product instead of a discussion. Then my name was pulled off the list and I got a text. It was the same links I could have gotten from the list had I desired. I like my RCT.
I was sent links to videos with a hard sell to watch them. I don't know this guy,, I don't open links like that. Then after I reported the text as spam. I got another, and then even a 3rd one. I guess he was blocked.
I'm sorry but I don't want hard sell spam coming from this list. It has never happened before. I hope it doesn't happen again.
Thanks
Keith
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Keith Roberts
owner
Hathaway Pines CA
(209) 770-4312
Original Message:
Sent: 03-18-2023 17:17
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
Paul,
Your mention of the out of phase issue (caused by unmated strings) is spot on. Since the majority of the unisons in the majority of pianos are in an out of phase condition, I have often thought that those who are doing the "listen to the whole tone" thing, customizing the tuning of each unison, are really tuning to voice out-of-phase so each note is as consistent with the rest as possible.
When you are dealing with pianos that are well set up (level strings, square crowns, minimal out of phase), the unisons can all "go on forever," as Jim Coleman Sr. liked to say, and they will sound very consistent without the need for customizing (IOW, you can tune each string with an ETD to as close to zero as feasible and count on good results).
The caveat is that out of phase isn't the only chaotic variable out there. There is also bleed through of upper partials of other notes, various resonance issues, and of course "false beats" (generally speaking, one string producing more than one pitch due to changing termination), and those also impact how the unison will sound.
While I haven't yet had the opportunity to use the pitch freeze function, I can see how it would be a help, particularly with strings that produce a non-steady pitch (ie, cause the ETD to have a "jumpy" display, bouncing back and forth from showing sharp to showing flat). By providing a specific moment in the envelope to focus on, it makes it easier to make a decision. As for whether the particular moment is going to be the optimal one, I guess I'd have my doubts that that would always be the case.
In the end, listening to unisons has to be the final test. If the note doesn't pass the test, you can go back and examine each string, and see what you might want to do to get improvement. That has been my process for the last nearly 30 years, and it has worked quite well. I can almost always do something (perhaps move the placement of the mic relative to the strings, or just interpret the back and forth and/or intermittent blushing of the RCT display differently).
I've done some limited experiment with the Pianoscope interface, and while I like its simplicity - an indicator plus a background strobe - I do find that I seem to get more useful info faster from the RCT display. Partly it is speed of reaction: if I make a tiny move of the pin/string, I can get near instantaneous feedback, which is critical for ensuring stability - and that's the bottom line for any tuning. Probably the fact that the "spinner" is larger and is providing more information in varying ways simultaneously (side to side position, rotation, blush) is a major factor in allowing for a more intuitive cognitive interaction.
------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
Original Message:
Sent: 03-17-2023 10:58
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
Hi Robin:
This is very interesting. Nice video demonstration, though I admit I don't know how to read the FFT display to see how you're tuning the unisons. TuneLab has a display which shows two separate frequencies in a spectral display. But the author admits it's not really meant to tune unisons. I would have to get that FFT app that you're using and play with it.
What is now happening behind the scenes with Pianoscope is that the author is collaborating with Steven Norsworthy, myself, and other beta testers to implement features that improve the display indicators. With the freeze time domain indicator, a sample of the piano sound is detected and measured after a small time delay to eliminate the hammer noise. Then a time slice is selected, 800ms, 700ms, or 600ms, etc., down to 50ms. Then the frequency is displayed on the screen as a greyish white line and held steady. The red line is displayed in real time (except for a small time delay in processing and drawing on screen), so it's constantly moving as the pitch changes. As we know, at the initial blow, the pitch is momentarily sharp, and then settles down. By selecting a time window, the freeze display can show where the pitch was during the selected time slice, relative to the target ("zero") on the display. If you choose a 200ms (.2 seconds) after impact, the freeze display will indicate what the frequency was during that time.
Pianoscope is a tool, just as any app for tuning. Without the freeze display, it's a very accurate tool, but tuning string by string I have to tune unisons by ear, as I have always done. Since the introduction of the freeze display, I have eliminated having to do this. But this requires one to separately mute each unison string individually, which takes time. The author is not currently envisioning the app to tune simultaneously two strings unmuted as you are doing here.
I should do this same experiment, tuning a piano by "eye" with sound blocked, and see what is the result. As it is now, I use musicians ear plugs to reduce the volume to save my ears from the loud impact sound. Previously, I had been using mics inside the piano, and wearing headphones, using compressors and limiters to protect my sensitive ears. Using the mic system, I was able to hear very intimately the sound of the unisons and I could do a very good job. I no longer have to listen while tuning the unisons, though I do hear them because I'm not blocking the sound completely. While tuning unisons by ear, you have to wait for a time to allow any phasing to appear. I know there are tuners who can claim to hear out-of-tune-ness within a half second. I'm not one of those. There is a professional pianist who insists that unisons must remain pure for many seconds. With Pianoscope, and of course good tuning technique, you can do that repeatedly. False beats are of course more difficult, as you can't tune them out. I'm doing my best unison tuning ever, after 30+ years tuning. I'm only concentrating on setting the pins to the precise frequency, not wracking my brain to determine whether the strings are sounding in unison or not.
One thing that affects unison tuning is when there is phasing due to unlevel strings and hammers that aren't mated to the strings. You can't tune it out, though if you tune individual strings they're all good by themselves. I've wasted lots of time chasing perfect unisons by ear, only to realize I need to do leveling and mating to cure the problem and make it better. So, yes, you do have to check by ear when you're done.
Thanks very much for your video demonstration. If you can do perfect unisons with the FFT with two strings unmuted, I'm all over it. What you were able to do so far is very good. Keep going, and let's see if it can be done even better. If you can describe exactly what you're seeing on the screen with the FFT as it's displaying the sound, I would find it helpful.
Best, Paul
------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 03-17-2023 09:38
From: Robin Whitehouse
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
Paul, I watched the video and this is really cool to see. I was expecting something slightly different, so I'll share an experiment that I tried.
What you and the video claim - psychoacoustics, attack/tone stages, interfering resonances in decay - 100% matches up with my extensive background in audio engineering. However, given that the video uses a quite nice instrument, I wonder how this approach might otherwise perform on an old and poorly stung piano suffering from sicker beats than a Skrillex concert. A few times, I've found the fundamental pitch of left/right unisons to not match the center unison, after minimizing beats at best I could.
...Not that this thought really matters, because the software is surely not being developed to cater to pianos whose next move is to the city dump.
My actual thought/concern is this: since all unisons are being tuned by Pianoscope individually, and nowhere combined (unless checking aurally), there is room for minor slippage or compression over the tuning process that could render the unisons out of tune. Perhaps tuning "unisons as you go" minimizes that potential, as well as actually checking the tuning afterwards. This of course is a minor issue, and akin to tuning with an ETD and making minor aural adjustments - totally within the realm of practicality.
What I want to share is a somewhat successful experiment at tuning unisons with FFT, Fast Fourier Transform. Simply, it visualizes the frequency spectrum of sound, thus graphically depicting how in-or-out of tune two (or more) simultaneous unisons are. This is not at all (yet) a refined technique but I think it has potential, primarily by way of enabling those with compromised hearing to articulately compare and tune unisons – the same goal as what you described with Pianoscope.
Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2023 17:04
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
With all due respect for Mr. Cheng, (I tuned strictly aurally for 32 years), while I agree that that there are many more skills required to deliver a good tuning on a piano but when it comes to pitch placement, modern devices are more than adequate for that part of the task. Not only that but they can perform any variety of tuning styles, both ET and UT on demand which is beyond the ability of most aural tuners.
It should be remembered that the tuning exam tests for basic competency, not concert quality excellence.
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Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2023 14:47
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
I come from around 39 years experience of learning how not to tune and how to do it better ;-)
For me better means not equal temperament and not necessarily tuning by ear. Tuning by ear will inevitably cause one to move pins unnecessarily in comparison to working with an ETD which will indicate spot on and not having to be moved, and or which way a movement is required. By using a precise tool one can minimise numbers of movements and bring greater stability to the instrument.
In my opinion it's not whether one tunes by ear or machine that matters but the result. In using a machine it's important to know and understand what the machine is doing and why and tuning the instrument, not the strings. The machine must be the tool of the technician, not his master.
Whilst I don't tune by ear and tune by machine, I check aurally and check that I'm getting the machine to listen to the right things. I'll be using a mixture of what the machine wants to tell me and what my ears want to tell me, and likewise on unisons sometimes I'll do all three strings individually and others by ear. To some extent it's dependent upon how the instrument is behaving and how it wants to respond. All instruments are different and to have hard and fast answers is less than wholly constructive.
A few years ago someone with an axe to grind and a tendency to consuming alcohol spread rumours behind my back. I didn't know what the criticism was but thrashed around to see what it might be. Angle from which one held and tuned with the lever was a possibility. Kind members here persuaded me that it really doesn't matter - the wood of the tuning plank is either strong enough for it not to matter or it's not strong enough. However one can apply contrary forces within one's tuning movement to counteract a flagpolling tendency if a 30 degree angle from 12 o'clock is more comfortable, if appropriate, but the real reason for flagpoling is too high a position of the coils on the pins. Not all restrung instruments are restored to the original manufacturers' standards. Of course those instruments require attention to technique but it's a matter of experience.
Best wishes
David P
Original Message:
Sent: 3/13/2023 2:31:00 PM
From: Gregory Cheng
Subject: RE: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
I'd have to disagree as well. ETDS/Apps are cool. I have played with a few apps and my go to for diagnosing, pitch raising, and alternate temperament tunings is the SAT, but I remain an aural tuner.
Think about it this way just because I have fancy camera with nice a lens that can take automagic photos doesn't make me a photographer. I am not saying that photographer should use old style film that they develop themselves but the fact that they have learned and honed skills to take advantage of every feature of that fancy camera, light sources, settings, framing etc etc etc. The digital camera is JUST a tool.
I personally don't care how anyone tunes as long as they do their best and tune well. However the apps and devices are JUST tools. Tools to aid us in diagnosing, get thru badly scaled small pianos, pitch raise with more accuracy, training and so on.
"It's no longer necessary to learn aural tuning to be able to tune a piano..." Is an invalid statement.
Remember this:
The skills don't come from the app, no matter how good the app is.
The results don't come from the app.
Both of those come from technicians regardless of if there use an app or not.
------------------------------
Gregory Cheng, RPT
Original Message:
Sent: 03-11-2023 22:33
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Video on Latest beta version of Pianoscope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owHb8D-sVOg
This Pianoscope app is a game-changer. There are many ways to tune a piano, aurally or with an ETD. Pianoscope has now evolved to become much more than just another tuning app. I used this today to tune a Samick SG172, and the result was stunning. I didn't actually have to tune the unisons by ear, though I checked them to see if I missed something or made a mistake. You can literally tune by eye and get an extremely clean tuning, especially tuning unisons. We all know tuning unisions is a critical skill, and difficult for new tuners to master. Pianoscope with the freeze-after display is so accurate and easy that anyone with a little skill can produce professional results in a very short period of time. Frank Illenberger and Steven Norsworthy have perfected this display capability daily over several weeks, so it's even easier to use and more immune to false beats and resonances than before. Steven has used his engineering skills and expertise in audio and electronics (plus he's a professional musician and trombonist) to optimize the time components of the attack phase. This eliminates the interference of the hammer impact noise, and ignores the resonances and beating sounds which develop later. The result is that one can tune without having to subject your ears to the loud sounds of impacting strings with a hammer and trying to determine whether your string is sharp or flat. Your only concentration is how to manipulate the tuning hammer to achieve a stable pitch while viewing the freeze display.
As we have seen in the last 30 years with the advent of the Accutuner, and all the software apps, a revolution in piano tuning has occurred. It's no longer necessary to learn aural tuning to be able to tune a piano, though we know that it takes a lot more than an ETD to produce a clean, stable tuning. Now with the latest version of Pianoscope, a new tuner can produce a result as good as any professional without having to master tuning unisons aurally. This is usually the downside of new tuners trying to learn the craft. You can get the pitch, but if the unisons aren't good, you haven't arrived yet. In some cases, a client with a good ear ends up with a shoddy tuning and blames it on his ETD.
Pianoscope may actually be a boon for the PTG because new tuners could get up to speed with their tunings and begin tuning for hire in a much shorter time. Of course, the other skills of regulation and repair are very important too, so they will need to learn that. Learning to tune aurally is also an important skill, not that I think that skill will be obsolete or unimportant. With this new innovation, we can be confident that new members will have the ability to tune accurately and be more likely to succeed in this business and not lose confidence and quit Guild membership. Just a thought..
------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com
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