Pianotech

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

By the way, we like names rather than "handles" here.  Welcome to our forum.  It's a good question.

Well, it would not be a sound you might like.  The pins are not straight up and down, but are slightly angled so that they clamp the wire against the bridge top and transfer the vibration more efficiently.  The bridge, made of wood, is of course softer than steel, and if you have the strings farther up on the pins, you're liable to split the wood because of the high tension of the strings pushing sideways on the pins.  At the base of the pins against the bridge cap, it's less likely to happen, although it can happen especially on bass bridges.  Because of the copper windings, there's more tension in the bass strings than on plain wires. 

Some time ago, there was a procedure to install the bridge pins in a vertical manner, and there was training how to do this.  There was still downbearing, but the sound was different.  Getting the energy from the string into the soundboard efficiently requires some downbearing, more or less depending upon the design, how stiff the board is, how much crown it has, the gauge of the strings, rib dimensions, and other factors.  What happens over time on some very old pianos is that the soundboard loses its crown, and then the bridge is sitting lower so it has less downbearing.  Or the soundboard dips so that the bridge top is no longer parallel to the string and has little to no downbearing there.  Usually that situation will affect the sound negatively, but not always.  Baldwin grand pianos made before they moved production to China had vertical hitch pins which allowed adjustment of the downbearing.  It might be possible to experiment with that system to achieve what you want to do to see the result.  This was called the Accu-just hitch pin system, and was used to simplify setting the downbearing process and save time by making the bridge height uniform.  Normal procedure requires shaving down the bridge top individually by hand to achieve the proper downbearing.  Without enough downbearing, the sound will be much weaker and require some repair or adjustment to remedy this weakness.

Overall, setting the downbearing is a very important process in obtaining the optimum projection and tone of the piano.  If there's not enough, the sound will be weak and thin, but have more sustain because the energy in the string will not transfer to the board very well. Too much will choke the sound and you'll get less sustain. 

I'm sure some on here will jump in and add things I'm missing here.  This subject is core to understanding how a piano works, and what can happen over time as the piano nears the end of its life-cycle.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

Hello,

Just a practical matter, I've seen "up bearing" on pianos I've rebuilt. Strings pulling up means that the glue joints themselves are stressed. I'm repairing an old board now in which the bridge literally was pulled away from the ribs. I've also seen bass bridge caps separated. The glue joints are strong, but not designed for sustained up pressure.

Stephen Paulello redesigned the piano in many ways, if you are interested in innovative designs, check out his pianos, especially the Opus 102.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 03:11
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 01:50
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

I haven't thought about unglueing. Maybe zero bearing, or alternate 1 string downbearing/next string upbearing. I'll check Paulello, I heard positive things about his strings.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 06:33
From: Tim Foster
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hello,

Just a practical matter, I've seen "up bearing" on pianos I've rebuilt. Strings pulling up means that the glue joints themselves are stressed. I'm repairing an old board now in which the bridge literally was pulled away from the ribs. I've also seen bass bridge caps separated. The glue joints are strong, but not designed for sustained up pressure.

Stephen Paulello redesigned the piano in many ways, if you are interested in innovative designs, check out his pianos, especially the Opus 102.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 03:11
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 01:50
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

Have you asked the same question of luthiers?

I haven't thought about unglueing. Maybe zero bearing, or alternate 1 string downbearing/next string upbearing. I'll check Paulello, I heard positive things about his strings.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 06:33
From: Tim Foster
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hello,

Just a practical matter, I've seen "up bearing" on pianos I've rebuilt. Strings pulling up means that the glue joints themselves are stressed. I'm repairing an old board now in which the bridge literally was pulled away from the ribs. I've also seen bass bridge caps separated. The glue joints are strong, but not designed for sustained up pressure.

Stephen Paulello redesigned the piano in many ways, if you are interested in innovative designs, check out his pianos, especially the Opus 102.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 03:11
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 01:50
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

the Opus 102 from Stephen Paulello - no ribs, no down bearing or up bearing, no side bearing in the horizontal plane.  3 points of deflection inside the agraffe.  Think a string at tension running from the agraffe or v-bar at the front to the htich pin.  The agraffe is at a nuetral axis in the vertical and horizontal planes.  No ribs, barless, a single continuous bridge.  102 notes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L0P8mBqAMk&ab_channel=LucasDebargueVEVO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-VAHN_tdnM&ab_channel=LucasDebargueVEVO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaglAzsdVDw&ab_channel=lucasdebarguevideo

Have you asked the same question of luthiers?

I haven't thought about unglueing. Maybe zero bearing, or alternate 1 string downbearing/next string upbearing. I'll check Paulello, I heard positive things about his strings.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 06:33
From: Tim Foster
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hello,

Just a practical matter, I've seen "up bearing" on pianos I've rebuilt. Strings pulling up means that the glue joints themselves are stressed. I'm repairing an old board now in which the bridge literally was pulled away from the ribs. I've also seen bass bridge caps separated. The glue joints are strong, but not designed for sustained up pressure.

Stephen Paulello redesigned the piano in many ways, if you are interested in innovative designs, check out his pianos, especially the Opus 102.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 03:11
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 01:50
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

the Opus 102 from Stephen Paulello - no ribs, no down bearing or up bearing, no side bearing in the horizontal plane.  3 points of deflection inside the agraffe.  Think a string at tension running from the agraffe or v-bar at the front to the htich pin.  The agraffe is at a nuetral axis in the vertical and horizontal planes.  No ribs, barless, a single continuous bridge.  102 notes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L0P8mBqAMk&ab_channel=LucasDebargueVEVO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-VAHN_tdnM&ab_channel=LucasDebargueVEVO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaglAzsdVDw&ab_channel=lucasdebarguevideo

Have you asked the same question of luthiers?

I haven't thought about unglueing. Maybe zero bearing, or alternate 1 string downbearing/next string upbearing. I'll check Paulello, I heard positive things about his strings.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 06:33
From: Tim Foster
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hello,

Just a practical matter, I've seen "up bearing" on pianos I've rebuilt. Strings pulling up means that the glue joints themselves are stressed. I'm repairing an old board now in which the bridge literally was pulled away from the ribs. I've also seen bass bridge caps separated. The glue joints are strong, but not designed for sustained up pressure.

Stephen Paulello redesigned the piano in many ways, if you are interested in innovative designs, check out his pianos, especially the Opus 102.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 03:11
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 01:50
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

Funny you mention violins…

Violins, whether Strad or Del Gesu pattern, all need a kind of downbearing, which is determined by the angles made by the strings at the bridge. A bridge that is either too high or too low will be detrimental to the tone, so luthiers have adhered to a set of standardized measurements, including string lengths/afterlengths, neck angle, etc. I once almost committed $20,000 to a violin with a very low bridge-suitable for some kinds of music, but not for the projection needed for classical playing. I asked the maker to install a standard-sized bridge, but it killed the sound. And the deal.

I've always assumed that pianos worked in a similar way. 

"… you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one…" Only if the violin in question was made by Stradivari or Guarneri. And even then, there are some duds out there. Guarneris had unusually thick plates that other makers could never get away with using, and many old instruments were reradiated over the centuries. Thickness is but one aspect of good tone. There are many others. The Germans were meticulous copyists, but produced few violins of any repute.

I agree with you, in the piano world I am sure there is space for more than one sound. Compared to violin, where you can choose between a Stradivari or a Guarneri thicknessing, but the sound will be always a good one, and there's apparently nothing new to experiment. But for the piano world maybe there is still something to explore or rediscover, because there are more than one sound that we love, from a 7foot, a baby grand, or an upright. See the recent Klavins Una corda, it challenges any rule, with a very beautiful sound, not very powerful, but really nice, a steel plate, and no ribs in the soundboard.

After 300 years of pianos and literally millions of pianos made we have quite a few examples of high and low downbearing to listen to (and tune).  The proof is in the pudding (s), some downbearing seems to be essential, but some pianos have a pleasant sound with minmal downbearing.

Manufacurers and rebuilders have been experimenting for quite a long time and there is some consensus, but there may be a few examples of pianos that break the rules.  Its a subject worth discussing and experimenting with.

Being primarily a technician and tuner I just try to improve what is in front of me and let the rebuilders worry about the details.  What the customers (musicians) prefer in sound is what evolves, though breaking the rules is how we find out what works.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

I will offer some information that probably no one cares to hear. In my rebuilding process, I always created zero downbearing on the bass bridge, and let only the weave of the strings through the bridge pins couple the string plane to the soundboard This I did for any piano from 5' to 9' in length, to promote freedom/flexibility in the bottom end of the soundboard. Then, starting at the first note on the long bridge the procedure was the same, and depending on the size of the piano I let downbearing pressure "creep in" as note 35 (more or less) was approached. Downbearing was present from this point up to note 88.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

David you prefer the sound of it, or you are mainly worried about not to crack the soundboard?

I will offer some information that probably no one cares to hear. In my rebuilding process, I always created zero downbearing on the bass bridge, and let only the weave of the strings through the bridge pins couple the string plane to the soundboard This I did for any piano from 5' to 9' in length, to promote freedom/flexibility in the bottom end of the soundboard. Then, starting at the first note on the long bridge the procedure was the same, and depending on the size of the piano I let downbearing pressure "creep in" as note 35 (more or less) was approached. Downbearing was present from this point up to note 88.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

In response to Post #17: my method of loading the soundboard was for purely acoustical benefit; any soundboard will have the proclivity to "crack", in time, the moment it is glued into (confined within) a piano rim. A soundboard structure that has been intentionally imposed by a heavy downbearing load may have its ribs die sooner than later, but the soundboard panel itself is merely along for the ride.

David you prefer the sound of it, or you are mainly worried about not to crack the soundboard?

I will offer some information that probably no one cares to hear. In my rebuilding process, I always created zero downbearing on the bass bridge, and let only the weave of the strings through the bridge pins couple the string plane to the soundboard This I did for any piano from 5' to 9' in length, to promote freedom/flexibility in the bottom end of the soundboard. Then, starting at the first note on the long bridge the procedure was the same, and depending on the size of the piano I let downbearing pressure "creep in" as note 35 (more or less) was approached. Downbearing was present from this point up to note 88.

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

David, am I correct in thinking you are referring to the deletrious effects of bridge roll, which twist the panel into something like a sine wave, and result in panel - rib separations in the area where you have targeted a light to no bearing?  By having such a light load, you have lowered the forces acting on the panel.

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 08:09
From: David Hughes
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

In response to Post #17: my method of loading the soundboard was for purely acoustical benefit; any soundboard will have the proclivity to "crack", in time, the moment it is glued into (confined within) a piano rim. A soundboard structure that has been intentionally imposed by a heavy downbearing load may have its ribs die sooner than later, but the soundboard panel itself is merely along for the ride.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 06:38
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

David you prefer the sound of it, or you are mainly worried about not to crack the soundboard?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 21:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I will offer some information that probably no one cares to hear. In my rebuilding process, I always created zero downbearing on the bass bridge, and let only the weave of the strings through the bridge pins couple the string plane to the soundboard This I did for any piano from 5' to 9' in length, to promote freedom/flexibility in the bottom end of the soundboard. Then, starting at the first note on the long bridge the procedure was the same, and depending on the size of the piano I let downbearing pressure "creep in" as note 35 (more or less) was approached. Downbearing was present from this point up to note 88.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

Will Truitt (Post #19): No, I was not referring to bridge roll. I was referring to the inescapable result of a quartersawn panel of soundboard material expanding and contracting within the confines of a piano rim, subject to seasonal changes over many years. Sooner or later it gives up and self destructs, ribs become unglued, and cracks appear across its face. A piano soundboard begins this decline the moment it is glued within a rim. To a degree, we can control various aspects of piano manufacture within the rarefied ivory tower of a factory or rebuilding shop; Mother Nature we have no control over.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 09:59
From: William Truitt
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

David, am I correct in thinking you are referring to the deletrious effects of bridge roll, which twist the panel into something like a sine wave, and result in panel - rib separations in the area where you have targeted a light to no bearing?  By having such a light load, you have lowered the forces acting on the panel.

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 08:09
From: David Hughes
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

In response to Post #17: my method of loading the soundboard was for purely acoustical benefit; any soundboard will have the proclivity to "crack", in time, the moment it is glued into (confined within) a piano rim. A soundboard structure that has been intentionally imposed by a heavy downbearing load may have its ribs die sooner than later, but the soundboard panel itself is merely along for the ride.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 06:38
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

David you prefer the sound of it, or you are mainly worried about not to crack the soundboard?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 21:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I will offer some information that probably no one cares to hear. In my rebuilding process, I always created zero downbearing on the bass bridge, and let only the weave of the strings through the bridge pins couple the string plane to the soundboard This I did for any piano from 5' to 9' in length, to promote freedom/flexibility in the bottom end of the soundboard. Then, starting at the first note on the long bridge the procedure was the same, and depending on the size of the piano I let downbearing pressure "creep in" as note 35 (more or less) was approached. Downbearing was present from this point up to note 88.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

Indeed, the seasonal changes and soundboards I know only too well, living the lakes region of New Hampshire with pianos 20 feet from a large lake surrounded by trees, with no humidity control.  That same piano is heated by a wood stove (with no humidity control).  The lake stays frozen for 4 months, so you can kiss any ambient humidity goodbye, with RH dropping below 20% at times during the cold months.  Keeps us rebuilders busy, though.

I grew up on the Eastern Shore and lived outside of DC in College Park, so I am well acquainted with your semi-tropical climate :-)

Will Truitt (Post #19): No, I was not referring to bridge roll. I was referring to the inescapable result of a quartersawn panel of soundboard material expanding and contracting within the confines of a piano rim, subject to seasonal changes over many years. Sooner or later it gives up and self destructs, ribs become unglued, and cracks appear across its face. A piano soundboard begins this decline the moment it is glued within a rim. To a degree, we can control various aspects of piano manufacture within the rarefied ivory tower of a factory or rebuilding shop; Mother Nature we have no control over.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 09:59
From: William Truitt
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

David, am I correct in thinking you are referring to the deletrious effects of bridge roll, which twist the panel into something like a sine wave, and result in panel - rib separations in the area where you have targeted a light to no bearing?  By having such a light load, you have lowered the forces acting on the panel.

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 08:09
From: David Hughes
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

In response to Post #17: my method of loading the soundboard was for purely acoustical benefit; any soundboard will have the proclivity to "crack", in time, the moment it is glued into (confined within) a piano rim. A soundboard structure that has been intentionally imposed by a heavy downbearing load may have its ribs die sooner than later, but the soundboard panel itself is merely along for the ride.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-11-2024 06:38
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

David you prefer the sound of it, or you are mainly worried about not to crack the soundboard?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-10-2024 21:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

I will offer some information that probably no one cares to hear. In my rebuilding process, I always created zero downbearing on the bass bridge, and let only the weave of the strings through the bridge pins couple the string plane to the soundboard This I did for any piano from 5' to 9' in length, to promote freedom/flexibility in the bottom end of the soundboard. Then, starting at the first note on the long bridge the procedure was the same, and depending on the size of the piano I let downbearing pressure "creep in" as note 35 (more or less) was approached. Downbearing was present from this point up to note 88.

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Original Message:
Sent: 04-09-2024 05:39
From: Hey There
Subject: No downbearing, only zig zag pins?

Hi I was reading this interesting thread about downbearing being irrelevant compared to zig zag contact at the bridge pins. I thought I would chime in as a hobbist, and being curious of what you think about this experiment. Compared the tone of the same piano, one with normal bridge, and one with a shorter bridge (so the strings are connected only to the bridge pins, without touching the bridge cap, so no downbearing). Would there be any difference in sound? Is downbearing just a myth to debunk?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------