CAUT

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

So why did not Steinway protect 250 year old trees 150 years ago?

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

I think it's important to realize that the industry doesn't have a lot of control over how forests are managed. This is a state and national policy. Canada has policies in place for managing Sitka Spruce for exactly these reasons, and a lot of Sitka Spruce does grow in British Columbia. Unfortunately, the US trend is not to manage forests properly but just clear cut without consideration of sustainability, that seems to be a dirty word right now. So I don't think Steinway ever really had any power to demand how Sitka Spruce would be managed.

I, of course, agree that this is an important consideration not just for Spruce, but for management of forests in general. A letter to your representatives is probably the best way to express your sentiment on the issue. 

So why did not Steinway protect 250 year old trees 150 years ago?

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Hi David,

Can you please explain why your statement, "...sustainability, that seems to be a dirty word right now" is appropriate for this community given its guidelines? Or, would you please consider that perhaps it stepped over the line into politics? Which is understandable and forgivable; but should not be a habit, agreed? We live in a free and democratic society and our path is taken with great debate. So far it seems to have produced better results than most societies. While we all probably find something left to be desired with respect to how our country handles many things, could we still observe that given the amount of resources we have and the amount of global demand for our resources - we arguably do a better job than practically any other place in the world - in striking a balance in managing our resources?

Thanks kindly. You are a welcome and appreciated member of our diverse community!

With respect to our entire discussion here of Sitka Spruce availability coming from AK as well as spruce from elsewhere:

Entertain me for a moment. I propose that it is possible to grow things, harvest them and simultaneously enrich the earth and receive bounty from it. Yes, doing so requires restraint, sacrifice, perseverance, dedicated research and scientific pursuit, collaboration and generally re-sorted priorities that don't really look like what humanity at large really lives for today. There does however seem to be some movement toward sustainability if you will, led not so much by governments but by innovative and courageous scientists in universities who are confronted with powerful commercial farming interests and money, younger people, young families, as well as people of all ages and varieties. A growing number of farmers in the US are also slowly beginning to turn away from commercial agricultural practices (such as growing Roundup-resistant genetically-modified Corn sprayed with Glyphosate) and embracing something commonly termed Regenerative Agriculture. Which does exactly what it sounds like it does. It grows things while enriching the ecosystem naturally. It often involves increasing biological diversity and building back complex ecosystems. It also restores desperately-needed rainwater-absorption by healthy soils. I hear that some of the university scientists in CA are winning hearts and minds with some of the big CA farm owners. Good news indeed. People are starting to wake up to the type of impoverishment they enjoy when they may have a nice car and a nice phone, but can't find a home, land to grow food, healthy food or medical care. Care they need after living with (or slowly dying from) a deficit of things like fresh air, water and nutrient-packed food free of pollutants and contaminants. And they are discovering that the food they've been eating has been leaving them and their baby, toddler, child or teen feeling ill, sick and vulnerable to all kinds of diseases and disorders not to mention cancer. Another back-to-nature movement may be underway and this time those who are on the move sense the urgency. This time its a move toward the actual survival of the next immediate generation and we know it.

To witness the deterioration of the Earth, much caused by humans, is a tragic thing. Yet one may find reasons to discover, innovate, do better on a small scale and so-on. But planet earth is dying. We should do everything we can to take care of it well, but that won't stop it. What we need is the philosophy that understands this yet still finds the right reasons to manage a dying planet and to offer hope to a sick and dying human race as well. I've found that philosophy so to speak and I hope everyone reading this does too, as soon as possible if they don't already. There is tremendous hope, peace and joy to be found, with more than enough to share and offer to the entire human race right here, today.

One of the greatest intellectual, emotional and spiritual issues I was confronted with as a young college student was the problem of evil, particularly as brought to the fore by certain periods in human history. That was all before becoming an RPT. I was raised as something termed "Reformed Presbyterian," and after more than half a lifetime have in the end found nothing else so true and complete, that offers so much peace - as the Christian Faith embraced by traditional, reformation-based, Bible-loving presbyterian Christians found around the world in many countries today. Most of my life I have unable or unwilling to fully receive what was available in what I would describe as this tradition's pursuit - and embrace - of ultimate truth. I may be only just beginning to find a deeper appreciation now in some ways.

What does all this have to do with Sitka Spruce and soundboard material? Well, I propose that humans have permission to invent pianos and harvest wood to make them. Humans are right to make music. They are right to discover things like mathematics and physics and harness their power and beauty to create a new and different beauty called music. We must; music is part of the "essential workforce" - or the vaccine humanity desperately needs and will die without. And not just any music or noise. We need good music, real music, fine music. Uplifting music that carries our minds and souls aloft and inspires us like nothing else. But what we are not right to do, is Destroy. To harvest a living tree for a divine purpose is not necessarily the definition of destruction. But to destroy living things with only greed, and no respect for - and care over Creation as I would term all of this, is the tragedy. To break what was once intended to be only good, and twist it, pervert it for bad instead of good. My faith tradition if you will, educates me that this is the cause of this planet's destruction. Yet what is less-known perhaps is that my faith tradition also informs me that any time we can become constructive rather than destructive and tell a different story - a new story yet an ancient story - that that flies in the face of the narratives of deterioration and destruction, we must seize the opportunity with great delight. And why? I leave that for you to discover!

And when it comes to wood for pianos, let us think, speak and live with moderation, humility and restraint, holding all things in balance; showing mercy both to our planet and to our fellow-man. Let us find courses of action together that allow the world and humans to live in harmony. We do not know how many more years the earth will continue to give us seed-time and harvest, rain, sun and all the seasons. But we should tend the earth well so it will be able to tend us too, for as long as life remains. That may be a very, very long time. We do not know. Again, my faith teaches me that God has promised seed-time (planting) and harvest until some final concrete cessation of what we know as the normal operation of this planet. And believe me, as a gardener growing produce with my kids, I'm increasingly thankful for that kind promise, for every gentle rain, for every ray of sunshine - in the midst of new invasive pests, sobering weather events and all the rest. God is in control and all is not lost. There is still music to be made.

I think it's important to realize that the industry doesn't have a lot of control over how forests are managed. This is a state and national policy. Canada has policies in place for managing Sitka Spruce for exactly these reasons, and a lot of Sitka Spruce does grow in British Columbia. Unfortunately, the US trend is not to manage forests properly but just clear cut without consideration of sustainability, that seems to be a dirty word right now. So I don't think Steinway ever really had any power to demand how Sitka Spruce would be managed.

I, of course, agree that this is an important consideration not just for Spruce, but for management of forests in general. A letter to your representatives is probably the best way to express your sentiment on the issue. 

So why did not Steinway protect 250 year old trees 150 years ago?

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

Kathy is correct and to add to that the LA fires were not exactly "forest fires", they were "wild fires" and encompass not only some forests maintained by the federal government but much of that was fueled by grasses, chaparral and scrub--not old growth trees.  And yes, it was driven by hurricane force winds.  

It's unfortunate that Kathy (and I'm not speaking for Kathy here) feels forced to address the obvious inaccurate politicization of the issue by Mr Chernobieff.  I thought political posts were verboten, or is it just selective enforcement.  

Moderator, and Mr PTG President, do you job if you're going to do it at all.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2025 12:15
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

Hi, all,

As a Californian, I will state two items of fact, which are often misunderstood by those reading news of our fires:

When we have our usual Santa Ana winds any time between October and March, it isn't uncommon for humidity to be 10-15% (or less) and winds can hit 80mpg with gusts of 90 and even 100mph. That's a hurricane without the rain. When conditions threaten, we have pre-placement of fire equipment and personnel in best-guess areas of most threat, including water-dropping aircraft. When winds are too strong and humidity that low, the aircraft are useless - water dries before it hits the ground, if the aircraft are even able to fly in that wind.

Any fire that starts in sustained 80mph winds has the potential to become utterly uncontrollable. Firefighters just try to get people out of the way and work to save structures with defensible spaces around them. Embers, chunks of burning wood 1-3" long, easily fly for a mile or two and start new fires.

If someone would tell us where the next fires would hit, we would happily cut down the trees ahead of time and use the wood.

Secondly, something like 90% of the forest land in this state is owned and managed by the federal government, which has repeatedly cut resources. When "their" fires burn, we're just trying to get out of the way.

I can't speak for Alaska, but I assume they face their own problems of resources, funding and nature having its own mind.

Kathy


Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2025 10:59:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

Kathy is correct and to add to that the LA fires were not exactly "forest fires", they were "wild fires" and encompass not only some forests maintained by the federal government but much of that was fueled by grasses, chaparral and scrub--not old growth trees.  And yes, it was driven by hurricane force winds.  

It's unfortunate that Kathy (and I'm not speaking for Kathy here) feels forced to address the obvious inaccurate politicization of the issue by Mr Chernobieff.  I thought political posts were verboten, or is it just selective enforcement.  

Moderator, and Mr PTG President, do you job if you're going to do it at all.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2025 12:15
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

Hi, all,

As a Californian, I will state two items of fact, which are often misunderstood by those reading news of our fires:

When we have our usual Santa Ana winds any time between October and March, it isn't uncommon for humidity to be 10-15% (or less) and winds can hit 80mpg with gusts of 90 and even 100mph. That's a hurricane without the rain. When conditions threaten, we have pre-placement of fire equipment and personnel in best-guess areas of most threat, including water-dropping aircraft. When winds are too strong and humidity that low, the aircraft are useless - water dries before it hits the ground, if the aircraft are even able to fly in that wind.

Any fire that starts in sustained 80mph winds has the potential to become utterly uncontrollable. Firefighters just try to get people out of the way and work to save structures with defensible spaces around them. Embers, chunks of burning wood 1-3" long, easily fly for a mile or two and start new fires.

If someone would tell us where the next fires would hit, we would happily cut down the trees ahead of time and use the wood.

Secondly, something like 90% of the forest land in this state is owned and managed by the federal government, which has repeatedly cut resources. When "their" fires burn, we're just trying to get out of the way.

I can't speak for Alaska, but I assume they face their own problems of resources, funding and nature having its own mind.

Kathy


Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2025 10:59:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

Mr. Chernobieff wasn't making a political statement Mr. Nolove.

Kathy is correct and to add to that the LA fires were not exactly "forest fires", they were "wild fires" and encompass not only some forests maintained by the federal government but much of that was fueled by grasses, chaparral and scrub--not old growth trees.  And yes, it was driven by hurricane force winds.  

It's unfortunate that Kathy (and I'm not speaking for Kathy here) feels forced to address the obvious inaccurate politicization of the issue by Mr Chernobieff.  I thought political posts were verboten, or is it just selective enforcement.  

Moderator, and Mr PTG President, do you job if you're going to do it at all.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2025 12:15
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

Hi, all,

As a Californian, I will state two items of fact, which are often misunderstood by those reading news of our fires:

When we have our usual Santa Ana winds any time between October and March, it isn't uncommon for humidity to be 10-15% (or less) and winds can hit 80mpg with gusts of 90 and even 100mph. That's a hurricane without the rain. When conditions threaten, we have pre-placement of fire equipment and personnel in best-guess areas of most threat, including water-dropping aircraft. When winds are too strong and humidity that low, the aircraft are useless - water dries before it hits the ground, if the aircraft are even able to fly in that wind.

Any fire that starts in sustained 80mph winds has the potential to become utterly uncontrollable. Firefighters just try to get people out of the way and work to save structures with defensible spaces around them. Embers, chunks of burning wood 1-3" long, easily fly for a mile or two and start new fires.

If someone would tell us where the next fires would hit, we would happily cut down the trees ahead of time and use the wood.

Secondly, something like 90% of the forest land in this state is owned and managed by the federal government, which has repeatedly cut resources. When "their" fires burn, we're just trying to get out of the way.

I can't speak for Alaska, but I assume they face their own problems of resources, funding and nature having its own mind.

Kathy


Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2025 10:59:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

Kathy is correct and to add to that the LA fires were not exactly "forest fires", they were "wild fires" and encompass not only some forests maintained by the federal government but much of that was fueled by grasses, chaparral and scrub--not old growth trees.  And yes, it was driven by hurricane force winds.  

It's unfortunate that Kathy (and I'm not speaking for Kathy here) feels forced to address the obvious inaccurate politicization of the issue by Mr Chernobieff.  I thought political posts were verboten, or is it just selective enforcement.  

Moderator, and Mr PTG President, do you job if you're going to do it at all.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2025 12:15
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

Hi, all,

As a Californian, I will state two items of fact, which are often misunderstood by those reading news of our fires:

When we have our usual Santa Ana winds any time between October and March, it isn't uncommon for humidity to be 10-15% (or less) and winds can hit 80mpg with gusts of 90 and even 100mph. That's a hurricane without the rain. When conditions threaten, we have pre-placement of fire equipment and personnel in best-guess areas of most threat, including water-dropping aircraft. When winds are too strong and humidity that low, the aircraft are useless - water dries before it hits the ground, if the aircraft are even able to fly in that wind.

Any fire that starts in sustained 80mph winds has the potential to become utterly uncontrollable. Firefighters just try to get people out of the way and work to save structures with defensible spaces around them. Embers, chunks of burning wood 1-3" long, easily fly for a mile or two and start new fires.

If someone would tell us where the next fires would hit, we would happily cut down the trees ahead of time and use the wood.

Secondly, something like 90% of the forest land in this state is owned and managed by the federal government, which has repeatedly cut resources. When "their" fires burn, we're just trying to get out of the way.

I can't speak for Alaska, but I assume they face their own problems of resources, funding and nature having its own mind.

Kathy


Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2025 10:59:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

David it is not their job. If you find something offensive flag it as in appropriate  THEN moderation takes place.

Kathy is correct and to add to that the LA fires were not exactly "forest fires", they were "wild fires" and encompass not only some forests maintained by the federal government but much of that was fueled by grasses, chaparral and scrub--not old growth trees.  And yes, it was driven by hurricane force winds.  

It's unfortunate that Kathy (and I'm not speaking for Kathy here) feels forced to address the obvious inaccurate politicization of the issue by Mr Chernobieff.  I thought political posts were verboten, or is it just selective enforcement.  

Moderator, and Mr PTG President, do you job if you're going to do it at all.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2025 12:15
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

Hi, all,

As a Californian, I will state two items of fact, which are often misunderstood by those reading news of our fires:

When we have our usual Santa Ana winds any time between October and March, it isn't uncommon for humidity to be 10-15% (or less) and winds can hit 80mpg with gusts of 90 and even 100mph. That's a hurricane without the rain. When conditions threaten, we have pre-placement of fire equipment and personnel in best-guess areas of most threat, including water-dropping aircraft. When winds are too strong and humidity that low, the aircraft are useless - water dries before it hits the ground, if the aircraft are even able to fly in that wind.

Any fire that starts in sustained 80mph winds has the potential to become utterly uncontrollable. Firefighters just try to get people out of the way and work to save structures with defensible spaces around them. Embers, chunks of burning wood 1-3" long, easily fly for a mile or two and start new fires.

If someone would tell us where the next fires would hit, we would happily cut down the trees ahead of time and use the wood.

Secondly, something like 90% of the forest land in this state is owned and managed by the federal government, which has repeatedly cut resources. When "their" fires burn, we're just trying to get out of the way.

I can't speak for Alaska, but I assume they face their own problems of resources, funding and nature having its own mind.

Kathy


Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2025 10:59:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

I chose to flag it publicly. I don't need to hide behind the veil of anonymity. Their job is to enforce it. So far that seems random or selective. 

David it is not their job. If you find something offensive flag it as in appropriate  THEN moderation takes place.

Kathy is correct and to add to that the LA fires were not exactly "forest fires", they were "wild fires" and encompass not only some forests maintained by the federal government but much of that was fueled by grasses, chaparral and scrub--not old growth trees.  And yes, it was driven by hurricane force winds.  

It's unfortunate that Kathy (and I'm not speaking for Kathy here) feels forced to address the obvious inaccurate politicization of the issue by Mr Chernobieff.  I thought political posts were verboten, or is it just selective enforcement.  

Moderator, and Mr PTG President, do you job if you're going to do it at all.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2025 12:15
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

Hi, all,

As a Californian, I will state two items of fact, which are often misunderstood by those reading news of our fires:

When we have our usual Santa Ana winds any time between October and March, it isn't uncommon for humidity to be 10-15% (or less) and winds can hit 80mpg with gusts of 90 and even 100mph. That's a hurricane without the rain. When conditions threaten, we have pre-placement of fire equipment and personnel in best-guess areas of most threat, including water-dropping aircraft. When winds are too strong and humidity that low, the aircraft are useless - water dries before it hits the ground, if the aircraft are even able to fly in that wind.

Any fire that starts in sustained 80mph winds has the potential to become utterly uncontrollable. Firefighters just try to get people out of the way and work to save structures with defensible spaces around them. Embers, chunks of burning wood 1-3" long, easily fly for a mile or two and start new fires.

If someone would tell us where the next fires would hit, we would happily cut down the trees ahead of time and use the wood.

Secondly, something like 90% of the forest land in this state is owned and managed by the federal government, which has repeatedly cut resources. When "their" fires burn, we're just trying to get out of the way.

I can't speak for Alaska, but I assume they face their own problems of resources, funding and nature having its own mind.

Kathy


Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2025 10:59:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

I chose to flag it publicly. I don't need to hide behind the veil of anonymity. Their job is to enforce it. So far that seems random or selective. 

David it is not their job. If you find something offensive flag it as in appropriate  THEN moderation takes place.

Kathy is correct and to add to that the LA fires were not exactly "forest fires", they were "wild fires" and encompass not only some forests maintained by the federal government but much of that was fueled by grasses, chaparral and scrub--not old growth trees.  And yes, it was driven by hurricane force winds.  

It's unfortunate that Kathy (and I'm not speaking for Kathy here) feels forced to address the obvious inaccurate politicization of the issue by Mr Chernobieff.  I thought political posts were verboten, or is it just selective enforcement.  

Moderator, and Mr PTG President, do you job if you're going to do it at all.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2025 12:15
From: Kathy Smith
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

Hi, all,

As a Californian, I will state two items of fact, which are often misunderstood by those reading news of our fires:

When we have our usual Santa Ana winds any time between October and March, it isn't uncommon for humidity to be 10-15% (or less) and winds can hit 80mpg with gusts of 90 and even 100mph. That's a hurricane without the rain. When conditions threaten, we have pre-placement of fire equipment and personnel in best-guess areas of most threat, including water-dropping aircraft. When winds are too strong and humidity that low, the aircraft are useless - water dries before it hits the ground, if the aircraft are even able to fly in that wind.

Any fire that starts in sustained 80mph winds has the potential to become utterly uncontrollable. Firefighters just try to get people out of the way and work to save structures with defensible spaces around them. Embers, chunks of burning wood 1-3" long, easily fly for a mile or two and start new fires.

If someone would tell us where the next fires would hit, we would happily cut down the trees ahead of time and use the wood.

Secondly, something like 90% of the forest land in this state is owned and managed by the federal government, which has repeatedly cut resources. When "their" fires burn, we're just trying to get out of the way.

I can't speak for Alaska, but I assume they face their own problems of resources, funding and nature having its own mind.

Kathy


Original Message:
Sent: 8/19/2025 10:59:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

If the forests were properly managed we would forever have old growth trees to use. In reality its stupid to leave the old growth trees there, when you consider they self destruct naturally by forest fires and disease. 100 to 400 yr old trees sounds old, but did you know that the oldest Spruce tree ( i think in Japan) on the planet is almost 10,000 years old? So where are all the 500yr old forests . 1,000 year old forests  etc. Those forests self destructed naturally way before industrialization.. Canada for example, their mismanagement is resulting in a firestorm of Spruce bugworms and they are leaving those trees there to be un-used. Also Canada  just had a major forest fire, and it still may be on fire. Maybe that's natures way of destroying the disease yes? Proper Forestry can prevent forest fires and manage disease. Instead false ideals leaves them there to remain un-used and self destruct.  California just had a major forest fire, how many Spruce and Pine trees were destroyed which could have been harvested there?. Washington State, the same environmental protection that in the big picture does the opposite of protect. There's plenty of Spruce around the world ( don't forget Russian and Chinese forests) that can be used for musical instruments, its just whether your granted access to it or not , by the dumb people in control of it. 

-chris

------------------------------
Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions. That ACTUALLY USES REAL INERTIA MEASUREMENTS. Instead of incorrect empirical charts.

Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for unmatched acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2025 09:04
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

The concern is understandable, but the fact is that Sitka is a finite and depleting resource. The day is going to arrive when there are simply no more 400-year-old spruce trees available. And, you can't plant 400-year-old trees. 

The entire industry needs to wake up and manage resources for sustainability -- something they should have started doing 20 years ago. 

------------------------------
Keith Akins RPT
Menominee MI
(715) 775-0022

Original Message:
Sent: 08-17-2025 10:58
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

For years Steinway bought spruce from Fred Tebb and Sons,  

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 08-16-2025 16:10
From: John Minor
Subject: Now this sitka spruce issue in Alaska

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

------------------------------
John Minor
The Piano Shop Inc
Champaign IL
thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
www.thepianoshopcu.com
------------------------------

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Del, if you have a moment, please elaborate why you think that carbon fiber doesn't hold promise as material for piano soundboards. I am interested in your perspective.

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Del, if you have a moment, please elaborate why you think that carbon fiber doesn't hold promise as material for piano soundboards. I am interested in your perspective.

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Del, if you have a moment, please elaborate why you think that carbon fiber doesn't hold promise as material for piano soundboards. I am interested in your perspective.

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Del, if you have a moment, please elaborate why you think that carbon fiber doesn't hold promise as material for piano soundboards. I am interested in your perspective.

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Del, if you have a moment, please elaborate why you think that carbon fiber doesn't hold promise as material for piano soundboards. I am interested in your perspective.

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Carbon fiber panels can certainly be used as piano soundboards. Steingraeber & Söhne has made a number of them. Although, when we visited their factory and listened to Udo playing otherwise identical examples of each, we all agreed that the piano using their conventional soundboard was the better of the two.  

It depends, I think, on they type of sound we are after. The piano industry has a 300+ year history of instruments using (mostly) spruce to form the soundboard panel. Spruce has a rather high damping factor so a lot of the vibrating energy at the higher partials is rapidly damped out. It's damped out so fast that we don't really hear it. We're used to this sound, to this characteristic. 

Carbon fiber, on the other hand, has a very low damping factor. Once excited it tends to ring on for some time. Those who joined me in my class on alternative soundboard materials heard this demonstrated. This doesn't mean carbon fiber panels can't be used as piano soundboards, it just means that such pianos are going to have a distinctly different sound even though the manufacturers have taken steps to dampen them down. (Adhering wood veneers to the surfaces, playing around with wood ribs, etc.) 

If we want to broaden our concept of precisely what the piano should sound like then, of course, carbon fiber becomes a more attractive material. It has been my experience, however, that most piano people have a rather limited range of acceptability when it comes to piano tone. 

There are other composite materials that can be used that will give acoustical results closer to what we are used to. (Assuming this is desirable.) I demonstrated a variety of samples in the class I taught on the subject. Laminated wood soundboard panels are now being widely used. These are a good interim step but probably not a long term solution. I also demonstrated several panels using foam cores with a variety of face layers. One of the more promising face layers -- in my opinion -- was a fabric made of flax fibers. Another promising material might be hemp. At the time I was preparing for this class I was not able to obtain a suitable fabric made of hemp and I've not gone back to the project since. But I'd like to try it. 

There are any number of possibilities here. Foam core material is available in a wide variety of densities. Foam ribs can be molded into the final structure. I ended up concentrating on natural materials for the face fabrics because, with them, I was able to more closely duplicate the damping characteristics of spruce. Once we start really thinking about this stuff the options become almost limitless. 

ddf

Del, if you have a moment, please elaborate why you think that carbon fiber doesn't hold promise as material for piano soundboards. I am interested in your perspective.

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

I guess the industry will start seriously researching alternative materials only when they hit a wall. Del, are your class notes available anywhere? 

My own experience with carbon fiber soundboards was comparing a Steingraeber with it (Phoenix design with bridge agraffes) to a spruce-soundboard Steingraeber sitting right next to it at some convention years back. I was struck by the fact that carbon didn't sound bigger than spruce (energy efficiency was one of Richard Dain's points about the advantages of carbon fiber), but also that it sounded more similar to spruce than I expected. It certainly sounded musical and by no means harsh or cold. In fact, I was surprised by how warm the sound was despite dense hammers and a fairly forward voicing.  

It's interesting you mention manufacturers playing with wooden ribs on carbon to increase the damping factor. I was always wondering why one would need ribs since carbon fiber is isotropic. Steingraeber also built carbon fiber soundboards with wooden bridges and conventional bridge pins. Your comments cast those design decisions in a new light for me.

Carbon fiber panels can certainly be used as piano soundboards. Steingraeber & Söhne has made a number of them. Although, when we visited their factory and listened to Udo playing otherwise identical examples of each, we all agreed that the piano using their conventional soundboard was the better of the two.  

It depends, I think, on they type of sound we are after. The piano industry has a 300+ year history of instruments using (mostly) spruce to form the soundboard panel. Spruce has a rather high damping factor so a lot of the vibrating energy at the higher partials is rapidly damped out. It's damped out so fast that we don't really hear it. We're used to this sound, to this characteristic. 

Carbon fiber, on the other hand, has a very low damping factor. Once excited it tends to ring on for some time. Those who joined me in my class on alternative soundboard materials heard this demonstrated. This doesn't mean carbon fiber panels can't be used as piano soundboards, it just means that such pianos are going to have a distinctly different sound even though the manufacturers have taken steps to dampen them down. (Adhering wood veneers to the surfaces, playing around with wood ribs, etc.) 

If we want to broaden our concept of precisely what the piano should sound like then, of course, carbon fiber becomes a more attractive material. It has been my experience, however, that most piano people have a rather limited range of acceptability when it comes to piano tone. 

There are other composite materials that can be used that will give acoustical results closer to what we are used to. (Assuming this is desirable.) I demonstrated a variety of samples in the class I taught on the subject. Laminated wood soundboard panels are now being widely used. These are a good interim step but probably not a long term solution. I also demonstrated several panels using foam cores with a variety of face layers. One of the more promising face layers -- in my opinion -- was a fabric made of flax fibers. Another promising material might be hemp. At the time I was preparing for this class I was not able to obtain a suitable fabric made of hemp and I've not gone back to the project since. But I'd like to try it. 

There are any number of possibilities here. Foam core material is available in a wide variety of densities. Foam ribs can be molded into the final structure. I ended up concentrating on natural materials for the face fabrics because, with them, I was able to more closely duplicate the damping characteristics of spruce. Once we start really thinking about this stuff the options become almost limitless. 

ddf

Del, if you have a moment, please elaborate why you think that carbon fiber doesn't hold promise as material for piano soundboards. I am interested in your perspective.

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

Less than 5% of Old Growth Forests remain in the Western United States (than includes Alaska) and less than 1% remain in the Eastern US.  Efforts to preserve this precious resource have been ongoing for many decades.  

If you cut down old growth spruce trees, you certainly would have highly prized soundboard lumber.  So why save it?  

May I suggest that those here who are interested google "Why should we save old growth forests?"

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/

For those whose entire reputation is based on traditional methods and materials, this is a difficult question with no real long term solutions. 

Much of the rest of the piano making world has found other workable solutions that have amazing, reliable results. (Laminated boards, anyone?)

It may be that Steinway will follow their past method of doing what everyone else is doing whilst talking about how they are the only ones doing it right. 

I'm not so much worried about how the soundboard is made as much as how few pianos are being made altogether. 

https://www.frontiermediausa.com/klawock-lumber-mill-supplier-to-steinway-sons-suing-forest-service-over-access-to-sitka-spruce/