Hi, David,
Spot on.
Kind regards.
Horace
On 8/2/2022 5:07 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> I know and I used to walk to school through the snow with bare feet, 7 miles!????
>
> I tuned lousy pianos by ear for years as well.?? I don't think I'm any better for it, honestly.?? Nor do I wear it as a badge on honor.?? It's just what I had to deal with at the time.?? ??Now I turn them down by choice even with an RCT to make it easier.?? In fact my RPT test was on a piano that was later DQ'd as an acceptable instrument!?? Passed.?? Been there done that.?? ????
>
> The point of the discussion is how can Joshua increase his speed, accuracy and stability and make a living while he continues to develop his skills.?? That's what I commented on.?? I'm not interested in arguing about the spiritual benefits of tuning aurally.?? The larger question is how long should someone practice before then can go out and tune for a living.?? The answer is when they can perform an acceptable tuning in a reasonable amount of time.?? That time might vary from person to person depending on their commitment, natural skill set, ability to practice, mentoring (if available) etc.?? I recall attending a seminar by Jim Coleman who was mentoring someone and felt they could go out and tune within a couple of months of practice using an SAT.?? Yet Steven R is suggesting that might be unethical????? Really?
>
> It's only unethical if you truly don't know what you're doing, are doing harm to the piano and charging money for that and misrepresenting yourself.?? Skill sets in this trade vary widely.?? Some people don't do much more than tune the piano.?? That's ok with me.?? I can do a lot more now than when I started.????
>
> I don't really buy into this woo woo approach to tuning a piano.?? Obviously there is some objective criteria about whether a piano is in tune or not--or we wouldn't have tuning tests presumably.?? The question of whether it's boring or whether you can develop a true connection to the piano using a device is a personal thing.?? BTW your description of a person tuning from A0 - C88 and then going back and tuning unisons is atypical.?? Most people tune unisons as they go.????
>
> My connection to the instrument is no less profound than yours even though I use a different method and it's presumptuous to assume that it is.?? I probably find that connection through voicing more than tuning when you're listening to multiple things simultaneously (including the tuning), and through refining touch dynamics that allow the pianist to engage with the instrument in a very predictable way.?? I'm not doing this for personal pleasure, even though I enjoy my work.?? I'm doing this to satisfy the customer and their specific needs.?? That means I want to accomplish as much as I can in the time that's allotted.?? For me, tuning hybrid style is the fastest and most efficient way to tune and with the current technology (RCT with AI) I find that the tunings are indistinguishable from what I would do aurally--and I'm no hack.?? I don't worry about getting bored if I'm only tuning for 45 minutes.?? It's within my attention span.?? But that leaves me over an hour on a tw!
o hour appointment
> and over 3 hours on a 4 hour appointment with relatively fresh ears to address everything else and really leave the piano where I would like to.?? Focusing your hearing and tactile senses for 4 hours at a high level is challenging.?? Whatever makes it easier and leaves me some bandwidth without compromising quality I'm strongly in favor of.??
>
> In Joshua's case, he completed a course on tuning, has an institutional gig where he can practice on, probably, sub par pianos with no time constraints, and now he wants to focus on private customers.?? I say go for it--don't let people suggest what you're doing is "unethical".?? It's how you learn and develop.?? Use the tools that are available to make your work easier and bring your time down into the realm of basic professional standards.?? Continue to practice (in spite of those who say you won't if you use a device) and try and follow up your own tunings at the county school where you work to assess your stability over a week, two weeks, a month, etc.?? Save the quest for spiritual tuning epiphanies for another day.
>
> ------------------------------
> David Love RPT
>
www.davidlovepianos.com>
davidlovepianos@comcast.net> 415 407 8320
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 08-02-2022 13:18
> From: Susan Kline
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
>
> To each his own, David.
>
>
> I tuned innumerable crummy pianos in my earlier years, and fighting horrible false unisons and trying to optimize horrible scales with short bass strings did build my capacities.
>
>
> As for ear versus eye tuning, I'd rather swim in the sound than stare at something. It's just a richer environment. Like Virgil Smith, I listen to the whole sound instead of dividing the partials.
>
>
> But nothing says you have to, if A0 straight up to C88 makes your day.
>
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 8/2/2022 11:53:00 AM
> From: David Love
> Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
>
> I just don't agree with that. People who tune with ETDs tune ~2/3 of the piano by ear. The tuning process is a combination of aural and tactile when done aurally. Using an ETD just adds a visual component which isn't even used for most of the piano. It doesn't remove the other two or disconnect them or compromise one's skills. ??I think we need to get over our purist thinking ??I've heard some aural tunings that are unimpressive not to mention unstable.
>
> Sure, someone can get accustomed to using the ETD and not continue to develop pure aural skills but that's not a problem of the device. ??Aural tuners can fall into bad habits too. ??The point of this discussion was how to practically reduce time so as to make earning a living possible while continuing to develop skills. ??Developing skills always takes some discipline and commitment. The ETD is a tool that, in this case, will help deliver better and faster tunings if used properly while allowing the user to both work and continue to improve. ??It's a no brainer to me.
>
> The suggestion that someone should get another part time job and continue to practice for a few years before they go out in the field I think is preposterous and impractical. Whether tuning from A0 to C88 is "boring" is not really at issue. Everyone will find their own comfort zone for working.??
>
> BTW yes I learned aurally and tuned that way for years. At this point I don't work that way anymore and have no problem with boredom. In fact I find that the tuning process is faster (especially when pitch changes are involved) less taxing and leaves me more energy for other work that require very focussed aural skills like voicing. That allows me to accomplish more in less time. It's a benefit for me and the customer.??
>
> The other issue is that many of the pianos that a new tech will encounter are not worthy of aural practice: wiry spinets, worn out grands, dead bass strings, poorly voiced, pianos not tuned in years or decades. Is practicing aural skills on those pianos really beneficial? ??I don't think so. Tuning unisons on those be ear is plenty challenging.??
>
> Anyway I don't want to drag this down to an aural etd debate. I think that horse has been beaten to death. I stand by me recommendations.??
>
>
> ------------------------------
> David Love RPT
>
www.davidlovepianos.com <http:
www.davidlovepianos.com="">>
davidlovepianos@comcast.net <
davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
> 415 407 8320
> ------------------------------
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 08-02-2022 08:24
> From: Peter Grey
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> The ETD concentrates your mental focus on the visual, whereas analog tuning focuses your concentration on hearing AND the physicality of "setting the pins". It is an entirely different experience.
>
> My experience tells me that if you decide early on to go down the ETD route, you WILL end up tuning with an ETD. It's affects the brain in a similar way to a drug.
>
> It's different if one masters analog tuning and practices it for years but then brings in the ETD (however it still affects the brain the same way but at least it can be put aside if needed).
>
> I know I'm going to get blowback with that statement, but I'm calling as I see it over 47 years of doing this.
>
> Peter Grey Piano Doctor
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> (603) 686-2395
>
pianodoctor57@gmail.com <
pianodoctor57@gmail.com>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 08-02-2022 02:50
> From: Susan Kline
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
>
> Hi, David
>
>
> <<however, you'll="" get="" aural="" tuning="" practice="" even="" with="" an="" etd="" because="" you="" will="" be="" tuning="" unisons="" by="" ear.="">>
>
> For educating one's ears and improving one's connections to the instrument with its different resonance and registers, touch response, intervals, octave stretch, and so on as they relate to music, that seems awfully like a starvation diet.
>
>
> However, if the main or necessary goal is to start bringing in an income, it probably is the fastest way.
>
>
> I once sat, totally silent at a reasonable distance, and watched someone tune a piano using an ETD. Started on A0, went upwards by semitones to C88, then tuned unisons by ear. It looked like a brutally boring way to spend time, also physically repetitive enough to make one sore and tired. After it was finished the person doing it played a piece on the piano. It didn't sound out of tune. I couldn't say it had much warmth, either, but the main problem was having to spend time that close to a piano but utterly removed from what it could do.
>
>
> Surely it would be a better plan, if the immediate need for income was so pressing, to get a part time job, and go about one's piano learning in a little bit more enhanced manner?
>
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 8/2/2022 2:28:00 AM
> From: David Love
> Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Lots of input here but here's my input FWIW. Some of this has been covered.
> There's no substitute for practice and experience but If the goal is to get out in the field as soon as possible and make a living buy a Reyburn CyberTuner. That will solve pitch correction issues that can be time killers by using the smart tune function. All tunings should be two pass tunings (more if the pitch correction is significant).
> Tune the first pass as quickly as possible but setting the pin/string/pitch, however you want to think about it. Tune with a single mute tuning the left string first, center string to the left string and right string to the other two. Focus on clean and stable unisons. The second pass will tell you how well you did.
> When you practice, focus on the least amount of pin movement possible and learn to feel the pin movement in your fingers. This is important. Until you can learn to feel the pin move and control it you will have a hard time gaining speed-and stability.
> The ETD is a great tool for checking tuning stability and for monitoring your technique for minimal pin movement.
> When learning you will burn the most time with the temperament tuning by ear. Save it for home practice. ETDs set temperaments as well as any ear.
> When you're not working, practice by tuning your own piano 3 times each day. Start just getting it in tune at pitch (440). Second tuning raise the pitch to 441. Third tuning lower the pitch back to 440. Don't waste time detuning the piano. That will give you practice tuning from above and below. Go back to the piano the next day and see how the unisons held before you start another practice session.
> The goal is the least amount of pitch movement to get to your target and to be conscious of when the pitch is stable. The ETD and unison tuning will help you with that. You can also use the ETD to check high unison tuning while you're learning to hear that. Tuning clean unisons in the high treble is more about learning the "quality" that a clean unison has.
> Make sure you have a quality tuning lever but more important make sure you have quality tuning tips that fit the tuning pins well!!! Can't emphasize that enough. You will not learn to feel the pin or control it without a properly fitting tuning tip. Tune grands and uprights from the 12:00-2:00 position. The high treble can shift to 10:00 - 12:00.
> Remember that pin setting is opposite on grands and uprights. On grands, the force from the lever on the pin (from the positions I mentioned) tends to pull the pitch sharp from which you might have to settle it back down. On uprights, the force tends to pull the pitch flat so don't overshoot the target on uprights as much if at all. The closer you are to 12:00 the less pin flexing will affect the pitch.
> Save pure aural tuning for home practice until you are competent but don't neglect some practice there. However, you'll get aural tuning practice even with an ETD because you will be tuning unisons by ear.
> My typical first pass takes about 30-40 minutes and the second pass about 10-15 minutes. You should shoot for about twice that at first. No longer than 90-100 minutes for both passes. Longer than that is too exhausting and hard to maintain your concentration. Take a break if needed, just a few minutes of silence will clear your ears.
>
> It's better to engage in some intensive practice at home until you can get to that level than it is to go out and spend 4-5 hours doing what probably is a mediocre job. Nobody really wants you there that long unless you're doing work that actually takes that long and you want to instill some confidence that you know what you're doing if you want to be hired back.
> Stick with it.
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https: aka.ms/o0ukef="">
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 8/1/2022 9:22:00 PM
> From: Peter Grey
> Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Gary,
>
> Being aural/analog only I do pretty much as Susan does, only I typically will go no more than 10 cents over on the first pass. Second pass is treated as a normal 30% overall. 3rd finds outliers and errors and refines everything.
>
> I also lube the counterbearing points with CBL before doing anything...always.
>
> Peter Grey Piano Doctor
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> (603) 686-2395
>
pianodoctor57@gmail.com <
pianodoctor57@gmail.com>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 07-30-2022 11:12
> From: Gary Messling
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Joshua,
> You're getting loads of great ideas here but as a beginner, I think you're going have to sort through all these suggestions and pick a few to focus on. I'm still not very fast and after 25 years, I'm still working on it.
> Having said that, here's a few ideas: You're going to be making at least two passes so work on speeding up the first pass. Don't be too fussy with getting everything perfect. Try to keep moving, you'll have time to get it closer later. The two conflicting things I think about here are 1. Getting it closer (more perfect) on the first pass will save me time on subsequent passes...verses 2. Getting it close enough and moving faster will give me more time on final pass when it really matters because that in fact will be the end product. So with this in mind, as you progress, you'll figure out the balance between A. as perfect as you are able and B. close enough for the initial pass (passes?). Along these lines, advice I have received is, "On a pitch raise, "DON'T set the string and DON'T set the pin." I have to admit, I don't always do this (maybe that's why I'm still slow?)
> I use an EDT which I think makes pitch raises much easier. I believe many "aural only" tuners have migrated to using EDTs at least for pitch raises these days. (maybe some of you would like to comment on this?) You probably know about overpull. An EDT can calculate an overpull target. If you wanted to tune aurally but use the help of an ETD, I suppose one way would be is to first determine the overall overpull with the ETD. You might measure several strings the the mid and treble sections and and see on average how flat you are and how much overpull you need. Once you determine that you can set A4 to the elevated pitch and tune aurally from there. You might find you need different overpull values for different sections.
> Also, even if you use an ETD for the entire pitch raise, tune all unisons aurally. 2 reasons: It's faster and beginners need practice tuning unisons...its the most important interval! If you want to use an ETD for each string of a unison, save that for the final pass. In my opinion, even an ETD tuner should be able to tune a clean unison aurally, (and probably know how to set an equal temperament too).
> Finally, one last thing that I have done a couple times lately is to use a stopwatch app on my phone; I hit the "lap" button every octave. If you do this, it may help to push you along.
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 7/29/2022 4:57:00 AM
> From: David Pinnegar
> Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Hi Joshua
> Further to my last contribution on using an ETD I suspect that your trouble is tuning all the centre strings and then the unisons. I tune all three strings at once with the ETD. I often find with the ETD that after tuning left and right string, the centre string has slipped so I retune it and check the unisons of left and right string by ear to make sure all is well. If you tune only the centre string then all your subsequent scale notes are subject to the error inherent in relying on just one string and then finding that your whole tuning is out. Tuning all three at once immediately shows up any error and enables you to proceed with confidence and swiftly. I tune A4 to C5 and then downwards to the bass.
> There are no doubt as many variations on ways to do things but this way works for me and well.
> Best wishes
> David P
>
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> +44 1342 850594
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 7/28/2022 6:31:00 PM
> From: Joshua Dellinger
> Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Thanks for thorough comment, Peter.
>
> To answer:
>
> 1.) The mid-high treble and unisons, most definitely
>
> 2.) I tune all center strings, and unisons are last.
>
> 3.) 3rds, 5ths and wide intervals I hear fairly well. 4ths are probably my least discernable.
>
> The rest is also informative. Thanks
>
> ------------------------------
> Joshua Dellinger
> Catawba Valley Piano Services
> Maiden, NC
> (828) 705-1732
>
cvpianoservices@gmail.com <
cvpianoservices@gmail.com>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 07-28-2022 17:33
> From: Peter Grey
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Joshua,
>
> I'm going to ask you some questions, and also give you some advice:
>
> Q1) What aspect seems to eat up a large portion of time for you? Temperament, bass?? treble, unisons, pitch raising?...primarily which?
>
> Q2) Do you tune unisons as you go (strip mute the center...) or something else?
>
> Q3) What intervals do HEAR best? (e.g. I hear 3rds, 4ths, and 6ths best...not so great on 5ths) This is important because you want to create a temperament scheme that maximizes usage of intervals you hear easily. More on that later.
>
> A1) Practicing: It has been proven that you can flatten your learning curve significantly by practicing a "lesson" just before going to bed at night, then AGAIN immediately upon waking up in the morning before doing anything else.
>
> So, you need to practice with a purpose and practice smart. Let's say for example that you want to speed up your setting of the temperament (many spend way too much time on this). So, set aside a 10-15 minute practice period (no more) just before bed to set a temperament (aurally/analog). Don't spend more than 30 seconds on any one note. Even if not perfect, don't worry but move on to the next, and the next. 6 or 7 minutes max. Then analyze it for the remaining time without correcting anything. (Using aural/analog tests...perhaps your ETD as well if you want).
>
> Now in the morning just after getting up DO THE EXACT SAME THING again, refining it a little more. 15 min max. Then leave it. Drink coffee, etc.?? Repeat this pattern every night and morning for a week. You will notice marked improvement in your temperament setting speed and accuracy.
>
> A2) MEMORIZE the timing of seconds. You can do this anytime anywhere. You must be able to count seconds with very high accuracy (without any outside reference ultimately).
>
> A3) Once you get seconds you need to accurately tap 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 bps with your fingers or teeth. This must become highly accurate. They are easy if you have rhythm. 5 and 7 bps are harder, but they are in between the others so if you can do all the others you can deduce the hard ones from there.
>
> That's it for now. More later.
>
> Peter Grey Piano Doctor
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> (603) 686-2395
>
pianodoctor57@gmail.com <
pianodoctor57@gmail.com>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 07-28-2022 13:30
> From: Tremaine Parsons
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Joshua,
>
> One thing that has not been mentioned yet is that: "You can't tune a piano unless it is in tune"
>
> In other words, if you have to move the overall pitch more than + or - about 3 cents you should plan on a rough pass and then a fine pass.
>
> Sometimes, raising pitch 1/4 or 1/2 step requires 3 passes. (or 2 1/2)
>
> Eventually you will get to doing a rough pass in 20 to 30 minutes. "You can't tune a piano unless it is in tune"
>
> Keep practicing, It will get better.
>
> ------------------------------
> Tremaine Parsons RPT
> Georgetown CA
> (530) 333-9299
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 07-28-2022 12:10
> From: Paul Williams
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Hi all,
>
> When I started with Steve Brady, he gave me a sheet to fill out. 100 pianos! Dates and time taken to tune, how flat were they? Etc.
> Fortunately, I was able to tune a ton of practice grands at the Univ. of Wa where he was at the time. Also my own 1946 Aldrich console with aluminum plate! (I figured that if I could tune that one, I could tune about anything!)
>
> Nice to watch the tuning time go down consistently through the 100. My first tuning after getting the basics was about 6 hours! I was absolutely wiped out after those first few. Times went down dramatically at first, then hit a 2-3 hour stagnation. Steve told me about plateus you hit while learning until an "aha" moment kicks in. Yes it did. Suddenly, my tuning times went down to about 1.5 hours. That's when I started my business.
>
> Of course, in a University setting, you get really good at tuning in an hour or even less as open times in certain rooms can get crunched.
>
> All you can do is just keep crunching and tuning and tuning.
>
> After 33 years now, I consider over 1.5 hours a difficult tuning (not counting pitch corrections)
>
> Keep on keeping on! You'll get it.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 7/28/2022 11:08:00 AM
> From: Scott Cole
> Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Joshua,
> Bill Ballard beat me to it: you have to treat tuning like learning a musical instrument: You can't just blow through fast passages without a lot of practice. There's no magic way to shortcut the process except deliberate, constant practice.
>
> Other responders have beaten me to my other thought: charging may be premature at this point. You've put yourself in a precarious position by "having" to make a living at it NOW.
>
> Not so fast. Back to the musician analogy: If you're not ready to perform, you can't force yourself onstage.
> Music students (or even professionals) who prematurely attempt recitals, competitions, or auditions risk a negative feedback loop of poor self-confidence when things go poorly.
>
> As far as pricing, I think it's fair to say (legal to say?) you probably shouldn't be charging market rate, whatever that is. Let's say it's half, and you're taking 4-5 hours. At that point, you'd be just as well off taking some other job in the meantime, and preserving your reputation. Remember that tuning isn't steady work in the beginning--you can't count on tunings coming in every day. The general job market is hot right now. Take advantage of that until you get your times down.
>
> Customers often have long memories, and I hear them complain, "I remember Joe 10 years years ago--he took hours" or "That other tuner Bill seemed grumpy" or whatever. You should not risk your reputation by accepting paying work too early. Especially with social media apps like Nextdoor or FB. People like to gripe online before they call you when there's a problem. In fact, we've seen in on these forums: people complaining about a company or service first before actually calling the company to get the problem resolved.
>
> Some have advised against using an ETD. I'm not in that camp. From the beginning, I used Veritune, and for just the reasons above: I did NOT want to be in the customer's house 3, 4, or 5 hours. Especially as the light faded and they started dinner and tried to keep the house quiet hour after hour. It's not fair to the customer. Perfect aural tuning on your own time if you must tune for home customers. If you're in a church basement, fine, take your time.
>
> I'm still early in my career (8 years, 5 as an RPT), and I'm always interested in getting my own tuning times down. I take 25 minutes to pitch raise, another 25 to fine-tune, and about 20 to perfect the unisons. Fine pianos take me a little longer if they are very clean sounding. Some of reducing time has to do with eliminating the "not-tuning time": how are you using mutes? How much time is spent between turning the pins? Are you obsessing on the outer octaves? Anyone seen Isaac Sadigursky's 2-minute pitch raise?
>
> One last analogy (I think I used this in an article last year): If you're baking a cake, you can't speed it up by cranking the heat to 500 degrees. You just have to let it bake.
>
> ------------------------------
> Scott Cole, RPT
> rvpianotuner.com
> Talent, OR
> (541-601-9033
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 07-28-2022 09:19
> From: Bill Ballard
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> It's like good musicianship: if you get a passage/excercize to come through at a slow tempo, I mean, allow your muscle memory to get thoroughly relaxed and comfortable with it, it will reliably ramp up to any tempo you want.
>
> I'm sorry to hear that you're immediately depending on the income. When I first set out from the N. Bennett St. school in FEB '72, the best I could muster was a 9A and a 1P. And that was with the advantage of a thorough understanding of the fabric formed by all of these partials. Two years later, I was up to a 9A, 11A, 1P and a 3P. Fortunately, my then-wife had a steady paycheck.
>
> Keep two things in mind: 1.) You can't tune a piano unless it's in tune already, and 2.) you can't tune a piano unless you've already tuned a thousand. You may be jeopardizing the long-term prospects of your career move.
>
> ------------------------------
> William Ballard RPT
> WBPS
> Saxtons River VT
> 802-869-9107
>
> "Our lives contain a thousand springs
> and dies if one be gone
> Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
> should keep in tune so long."
> ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
> +++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 07-27-2022 19:48
> From: Joshua Dellinger
> Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
>
> Hi, Folks. I'm a beginner who started business the middle of this month. Previous to this, I finished the tuning section on Rick Butler's course. I've begun tuning for my first client, which is probably the most suitable I could hope for: a county school system. I have my first in-home client this Friday, (whom I've duly warned of what I'm about to mention.)
>
>
> I have a serious problem that's plaguing me: my tuning time is terrible. So far, unless the piano is already partly in tune, I've faced times upwards of 4.5-5 hours. This, of course, isn't great. In fact, it's no good, and it's exhausting.
>
> Granted, some practice tunings aside, I am only on my 10th paid tuning. That said, this just seems untenable. I'm wondering if I'm not just being a bit perfectionist in my tunings, as even after such a lengthy tuning, I'm still often disatisfied. I'd hate the idea of delivering a bad tuning, but I'm beginning to see I may risk poor service all the same by taking so long.
>
> On the advice of another tuner, I'm planing to start really limiting myself in time; having an overall time limit (maybe starting with 3hrs), as well as limits on certain parts, like tuning the treble, unisons, etc., doing my best within those constraints, then moving on.
>
> In any case, I wanted to ask y'all about your experience as a beginner, your perspective on what I've said, and how you'd advise me to help address it.
>
>
>
> I'm grateful for any input. Thank you very much
>
> ------------------------------
> Joshua Dellinger
> Catawba Valley Piano Services
> Maiden, NC
>
cvpianoservices@gmail.com <
cvpianoservices@gmail.com>
> ------------------------------
>
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Original Message:
Sent: 8/2/2022 8:08:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
I know and I used to walk to school through the snow with bare feet, 7 miles!
I tuned lousy pianos by ear for years as well. I don't think I'm any better for it, honestly. Nor do I wear it as a badge on honor. It's just what I had to deal with at the time. Now I turn them down by choice even with an RCT to make it easier. In fact my RPT test was on a piano that was later DQ'd as an acceptable instrument! Passed. Been there done that.
The point of the discussion is how can Joshua increase his speed, accuracy and stability and make a living while he continues to develop his skills. That's what I commented on. I'm not interested in arguing about the spiritual benefits of tuning aurally. The larger question is how long should someone practice before then can go out and tune for a living. The answer is when they can perform an acceptable tuning in a reasonable amount of time. That time might vary from person to person depending on their commitment, natural skill set, ability to practice, mentoring (if available) etc. I recall attending a seminar by Jim Coleman who was mentoring someone and felt they could go out and tune within a couple of months of practice using an SAT. Yet Steven R is suggesting that might be unethical??? Really?
It's only unethical if you truly don't know what you're doing, are doing harm to the piano and charging money for that and misrepresenting yourself. Skill sets in this trade vary widely. Some people don't do much more than tune the piano. That's ok with me. I can do a lot more now than when I started.
I don't really buy into this woo woo approach to tuning a piano. Obviously there is some objective criteria about whether a piano is in tune or not--or we wouldn't have tuning tests presumably. The question of whether it's boring or whether you can develop a true connection to the piano using a device is a personal thing. BTW your description of a person tuning from A0 - C88 and then going back and tuning unisons is atypical. Most people tune unisons as they go.
My connection to the instrument is no less profound than yours even though I use a different method and it's presumptuous to assume that it is. I probably find that connection through voicing more than tuning when you're listening to multiple things simultaneously (including the tuning), and through refining touch dynamics that allow the pianist to engage with the instrument in a very predictable way. I'm not doing this for personal pleasure, even though I enjoy my work. I'm doing this to satisfy the customer and their specific needs. That means I want to accomplish as much as I can in the time that's allotted. For me, tuning hybrid style is the fastest and most efficient way to tune and with the current technology (RCT with AI) I find that the tunings are indistinguishable from what I would do aurally--and I'm no hack. I don't worry about getting bored if I'm only tuning for 45 minutes. It's within my attention span. But that leaves me over an hour on a two hour appointment and over 3 hours on a 4 hour appointment with relatively fresh ears to address everything else and really leave the piano where I would like to. Focusing your hearing and tactile senses for 4 hours at a high level is challenging. Whatever makes it easier and leaves me some bandwidth without compromising quality I'm strongly in favor of.
In Joshua's case, he completed a course on tuning, has an institutional gig where he can practice on, probably, sub par pianos with no time constraints, and now he wants to focus on private customers. I say go for it--don't let people suggest what you're doing is "unethical". It's how you learn and develop. Use the tools that are available to make your work easier and bring your time down into the realm of basic professional standards. Continue to practice (in spite of those who say you won't if you use a device) and try and follow up your own tunings at the county school where you work to assess your stability over a week, two weeks, a month, etc. Save the quest for spiritual tuning epiphanies for another day.
------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-02-2022 13:18
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
To each his own, David.
I tuned innumerable crummy pianos in my earlier years, and fighting horrible false unisons and trying to optimize horrible scales with short bass strings did build my capacities.
As for ear versus eye tuning, I'd rather swim in the sound than stare at something. It's just a richer environment. Like Virgil Smith, I listen to the whole sound instead of dividing the partials.
But nothing says you have to, if A0 straight up to C88 makes your day.
Original Message:
Sent: 8/2/2022 11:53:00 AM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
I just don't agree with that. People who tune with ETDs tune ~2/3 of the piano by ear. The tuning process is a combination of aural and tactile when done aurally. Using an ETD just adds a visual component which isn't even used for most of the piano. It doesn't remove the other two or disconnect them or compromise one's skills. I think we need to get over our purist thinking I've heard some aural tunings that are unimpressive not to mention unstable.
Sure, someone can get accustomed to using the ETD and not continue to develop pure aural skills but that's not a problem of the device. Aural tuners can fall into bad habits too. The point of this discussion was how to practically reduce time so as to make earning a living possible while continuing to develop skills. Developing skills always takes some discipline and commitment. The ETD is a tool that, in this case, will help deliver better and faster tunings if used properly while allowing the user to both work and continue to improve. It's a no brainer to me.
The suggestion that someone should get another part time job and continue to practice for a few years before they go out in the field I think is preposterous and impractical. Whether tuning from A0 to C88 is "boring" is not really at issue. Everyone will find their own comfort zone for working.
BTW yes I learned aurally and tuned that way for years. At this point I don't work that way anymore and have no problem with boredom. In fact I find that the tuning process is faster (especially when pitch changes are involved) less taxing and leaves me more energy for other work that require very focussed aural skills like voicing. That allows me to accomplish more in less time. It's a benefit for me and the customer.
The other issue is that many of the pianos that a new tech will encounter are not worthy of aural practice: wiry spinets, worn out grands, dead bass strings, poorly voiced, pianos not tuned in years or decades. Is practicing aural skills on those pianos really beneficial? I don't think so. Tuning unisons on those be ear is plenty challenging.
Anyway I don't want to drag this down to an aural etd debate. I think that horse has been beaten to death. I stand by me recommendations.
------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
Original Message:
Sent: 08-02-2022 08:24
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
The ETD concentrates your mental focus on the visual, whereas analog tuning focuses your concentration on hearing AND the physicality of "setting the pins". It is an entirely different experience.
My experience tells me that if you decide early on to go down the ETD route, you WILL end up tuning with an ETD. It's affects the brain in a similar way to a drug.
It's different if one masters analog tuning and practices it for years but then brings in the ETD (however it still affects the brain the same way but at least it can be put aside if needed).
I know I'm going to get blowback with that statement, but I'm calling as I see it over 47 years of doing this.
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 08-02-2022 02:50
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Hi, David
<<However, you'll get aural tuning practice even with an ETD because you will be tuning unisons by ear.>>
For educating one's ears and improving one's connections to the instrument with its different resonance and registers, touch response, intervals, octave stretch, and so on as they relate to music, that seems awfully like a starvation diet.
However, if the main or necessary goal is to start bringing in an income, it probably is the fastest way.
I once sat, totally silent at a reasonable distance, and watched someone tune a piano using an ETD. Started on A0, went upwards by semitones to C88, then tuned unisons by ear. It looked like a brutally boring way to spend time, also physically repetitive enough to make one sore and tired. After it was finished the person doing it played a piece on the piano. It didn't sound out of tune. I couldn't say it had much warmth, either, but the main problem was having to spend time that close to a piano but utterly removed from what it could do.
Surely it would be a better plan, if the immediate need for income was so pressing, to get a part time job, and go about one's piano learning in a little bit more enhanced manner?
Original Message:
Sent: 8/2/2022 2:28:00 AM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Lots of input here but here's my input FWIW. Some of this has been covered.
There's no substitute for practice and experience but If the goal is to get out in the field as soon as possible and make a living buy a Reyburn CyberTuner. That will solve pitch correction issues that can be time killers by using the smart tune function. All tunings should be two pass tunings (more if the pitch correction is significant).
Tune the first pass as quickly as possible but setting the pin/string/pitch, however you want to think about it. Tune with a single mute tuning the left string first, center string to the left string and right string to the other two. Focus on clean and stable unisons. The second pass will tell you how well you did.
When you practice, focus on the least amount of pin movement possible and learn to feel the pin movement in your fingers. This is important. Until you can learn to feel the pin move and control it you will have a hard time gaining speed-and stability.
The ETD is a great tool for checking tuning stability and for monitoring your technique for minimal pin movement.
When learning you will burn the most time with the temperament tuning by ear. Save it for home practice. ETDs set temperaments as well as any ear.
When you're not working, practice by tuning your own piano 3 times each day. Start just getting it in tune at pitch (440). Second tuning raise the pitch to 441. Third tuning lower the pitch back to 440. Don't waste time detuning the piano. That will give you practice tuning from above and below. Go back to the piano the next day and see how the unisons held before you start another practice session.
The goal is the least amount of pitch movement to get to your target and to be conscious of when the pitch is stable. The ETD and unison tuning will help you with that. You can also use the ETD to check high unison tuning while you're learning to hear that. Tuning clean unisons in the high treble is more about learning the "quality" that a clean unison has.
Make sure you have a quality tuning lever but more important make sure you have quality tuning tips that fit the tuning pins well!!! Can't emphasize that enough. You will not learn to feel the pin or control it without a properly fitting tuning tip. Tune grands and uprights from the 12:00-2:00 position. The high treble can shift to 10:00 - 12:00.
Remember that pin setting is opposite on grands and uprights. On grands, the force from the lever on the pin (from the positions I mentioned) tends to pull the pitch sharp from which you might have to settle it back down. On uprights, the force tends to pull the pitch flat so don't overshoot the target on uprights as much if at all. The closer you are to 12:00 the less pin flexing will affect the pitch.
Save pure aural tuning for home practice until you are competent but don't neglect some practice there. However, you'll get aural tuning practice even with an ETD because you will be tuning unisons by ear.
My typical first pass takes about 30-40 minutes and the second pass about 10-15 minutes. You should shoot for about twice that at first. No longer than 90-100 minutes for both passes. Longer than that is too exhausting and hard to maintain your concentration. Take a break if needed, just a few minutes of silence will clear your ears.
It's better to engage in some intensive practice at home until you can get to that level than it is to go out and spend 4-5 hours doing what probably is a mediocre job. Nobody really wants you there that long unless you're doing work that actually takes that long and you want to instill some confidence that you know what you're doing if you want to be hired back.
Stick with it.
Original Message:
Sent: 8/1/2022 9:22:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Gary,
Being aural/analog only I do pretty much as Susan does, only I typically will go no more than 10 cents over on the first pass. Second pass is treated as a normal 30% overall. 3rd finds outliers and errors and refines everything.
I also lube the counterbearing points with CBL before doing anything...always.
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 07-30-2022 11:12
From: Gary Messling
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Joshua,
You're getting loads of great ideas here but as a beginner, I think you're going have to sort through all these suggestions and pick a few to focus on. I'm still not very fast and after 25 years, I'm still working on it.
Having said that, here's a few ideas: You're going to be making at least two passes so work on speeding up the first pass. Don't be too fussy with getting everything perfect. Try to keep moving, you'll have time to get it closer later. The two conflicting things I think about here are 1. Getting it closer (more perfect) on the first pass will save me time on subsequent passes...verses 2. Getting it close enough and moving faster will give me more time on final pass when it really matters because that in fact will be the end product. So with this in mind, as you progress, you'll figure out the balance between A. as perfect as you are able and B. close enough for the initial pass (passes?). Along these lines, advice I have received is, "On a pitch raise, "DON'T set the string and DON'T set the pin." I have to admit, I don't always do this (maybe that's why I'm still slow?)
I use an EDT which I think makes pitch raises much easier. I believe many "aural only" tuners have migrated to using EDTs at least for pitch raises these days. (maybe some of you would like to comment on this?) You probably know about overpull. An EDT can calculate an overpull target. If you wanted to tune aurally but use the help of an ETD, I suppose one way would be is to first determine the overall overpull with the ETD. You might measure several strings the the mid and treble sections and and see on average how flat you are and how much overpull you need. Once you determine that you can set A4 to the elevated pitch and tune aurally from there. You might find you need different overpull values for different sections.
Also, even if you use an ETD for the entire pitch raise, tune all unisons aurally. 2 reasons: It's faster and beginners need practice tuning unisons...its the most important interval! If you want to use an ETD for each string of a unison, save that for the final pass. In my opinion, even an ETD tuner should be able to tune a clean unison aurally, (and probably know how to set an equal temperament too).
Finally, one last thing that I have done a couple times lately is to use a stopwatch app on my phone; I hit the "lap" button every octave. If you do this, it may help to push you along.
Gary
Original Message:
Sent: 7/29/2022 4:57:00 AM
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Hi Joshua
Further to my last contribution on using an ETD I suspect that your trouble is tuning all the centre strings and then the unisons. I tune all three strings at once with the ETD. I often find with the ETD that after tuning left and right string, the centre string has slipped so I retune it and check the unisons of left and right string by ear to make sure all is well. If you tune only the centre string then all your subsequent scale notes are subject to the error inherent in relying on just one string and then finding that your whole tuning is out. Tuning all three at once immediately shows up any error and enables you to proceed with confidence and swiftly. I tune A4 to C5 and then downwards to the bass.
There are no doubt as many variations on ways to do things but this way works for me and well.
Best wishes
David P
--
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David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594
Original Message:
Sent: 7/28/2022 6:31:00 PM
From: Joshua Dellinger
Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Thanks for thorough comment, Peter.
To answer:
1.) The mid-high treble and unisons, most definitely
2.) I tune all center strings, and unisons are last.
3.) 3rds, 5ths and wide intervals I hear fairly well. 4ths are probably my least discernable.
The rest is also informative. Thanks
------------------------------
Joshua Dellinger
Catawba Valley Piano Services
Maiden, NC
(828) 705-1732
cvpianoservices@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 17:33
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Joshua,
I'm going to ask you some questions, and also give you some advice:
Q1) What aspect seems to eat up a large portion of time for you? Temperament, bass treble, unisons, pitch raising?...primarily which?
Q2) Do you tune unisons as you go (strip mute the center...) or something else?
Q3) What intervals do HEAR best? (e.g. I hear 3rds, 4ths, and 6ths best...not so great on 5ths) This is important because you want to create a temperament scheme that maximizes usage of intervals you hear easily. More on that later.
A1) Practicing: It has been proven that you can flatten your learning curve significantly by practicing a "lesson" just before going to bed at night, then AGAIN immediately upon waking up in the morning before doing anything else.
So, you need to practice with a purpose and practice smart. Let's say for example that you want to speed up your setting of the temperament (many spend way too much time on this). So, set aside a 10-15 minute practice period (no more) just before bed to set a temperament (aurally/analog). Don't spend more than 30 seconds on any one note. Even if not perfect, don't worry but move on to the next, and the next. 6 or 7 minutes max. Then analyze it for the remaining time without correcting anything. (Using aural/analog tests...perhaps your ETD as well if you want).
Now in the morning just after getting up DO THE EXACT SAME THING again, refining it a little more. 15 min max. Then leave it. Drink coffee, etc. Repeat this pattern every night and morning for a week. You will notice marked improvement in your temperament setting speed and accuracy.
A2) MEMORIZE the timing of seconds. You can do this anytime anywhere. You must be able to count seconds with very high accuracy (without any outside reference ultimately).
A3) Once you get seconds you need to accurately tap 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 bps with your fingers or teeth. This must become highly accurate. They are easy if you have rhythm. 5 and 7 bps are harder, but they are in between the others so if you can do all the others you can deduce the hard ones from there.
That's it for now. More later.
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 13:30
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Joshua,
One thing that has not been mentioned yet is that: "You can't tune a piano unless it is in tune"
In other words, if you have to move the overall pitch more than + or - about 3 cents you should plan on a rough pass and then a fine pass.
Sometimes, raising pitch 1/4 or 1/2 step requires 3 passes. (or 2 1/2)
Eventually you will get to doing a rough pass in 20 to 30 minutes. "You can't tune a piano unless it is in tune"
Keep practicing, It will get better.
------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299
Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 12:10
From: Paul Williams
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Hi all,
When I started with Steve Brady, he gave me a sheet to fill out. 100 pianos! Dates and time taken to tune, how flat were they? Etc.
Fortunately, I was able to tune a ton of practice grands at the Univ. of Wa where he was at the time. Also my own 1946 Aldrich console with aluminum plate! (I figured that if I could tune that one, I could tune about anything!)
Nice to watch the tuning time go down consistently through the 100. My first tuning after getting the basics was about 6 hours! I was absolutely wiped out after those first few. Times went down dramatically at first, then hit a 2-3 hour stagnation. Steve told me about plateus you hit while learning until an "aha" moment kicks in. Yes it did. Suddenly, my tuning times went down to about 1.5 hours. That's when I started my business.
Of course, in a University setting, you get really good at tuning in an hour or even less as open times in certain rooms can get crunched.
All you can do is just keep crunching and tuning and tuning.
After 33 years now, I consider over 1.5 hours a difficult tuning (not counting pitch corrections)
Keep on keeping on! You'll get it.
Paul
Original Message:
Sent: 7/28/2022 11:08:00 AM
From: Scott Cole
Subject: RE: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Joshua,
Bill Ballard beat me to it: you have to treat tuning like learning a musical instrument: You can't just blow through fast passages without a lot of practice. There's no magic way to shortcut the process except deliberate, constant practice.
Other responders have beaten me to my other thought: charging may be premature at this point. You've put yourself in a precarious position by "having" to make a living at it NOW.
Not so fast. Back to the musician analogy: If you're not ready to perform, you can't force yourself onstage.
Music students (or even professionals) who prematurely attempt recitals, competitions, or auditions risk a negative feedback loop of poor self-confidence when things go poorly.
As far as pricing, I think it's fair to say (legal to say?) you probably shouldn't be charging market rate, whatever that is. Let's say it's half, and you're taking 4-5 hours. At that point, you'd be just as well off taking some other job in the meantime, and preserving your reputation. Remember that tuning isn't steady work in the beginning--you can't count on tunings coming in every day. The general job market is hot right now. Take advantage of that until you get your times down.
Customers often have long memories, and I hear them complain, "I remember Joe 10 years years ago--he took hours" or "That other tuner Bill seemed grumpy" or whatever. You should not risk your reputation by accepting paying work too early. Especially with social media apps like Nextdoor or FB. People like to gripe online before they call you when there's a problem. In fact, we've seen in on these forums: people complaining about a company or service first before actually calling the company to get the problem resolved.
Some have advised against using an ETD. I'm not in that camp. From the beginning, I used Veritune, and for just the reasons above: I did NOT want to be in the customer's house 3, 4, or 5 hours. Especially as the light faded and they started dinner and tried to keep the house quiet hour after hour. It's not fair to the customer. Perfect aural tuning on your own time if you must tune for home customers. If you're in a church basement, fine, take your time.
I'm still early in my career (8 years, 5 as an RPT), and I'm always interested in getting my own tuning times down. I take 25 minutes to pitch raise, another 25 to fine-tune, and about 20 to perfect the unisons. Fine pianos take me a little longer if they are very clean sounding. Some of reducing time has to do with eliminating the "not-tuning time": how are you using mutes? How much time is spent between turning the pins? Are you obsessing on the outer octaves? Anyone seen Isaac Sadigursky's 2-minute pitch raise?
One last analogy (I think I used this in an article last year): If you're baking a cake, you can't speed it up by cranking the heat to 500 degrees. You just have to let it bake.
------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2022 09:19
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
It's like good musicianship: if you get a passage/excercize to come through at a slow tempo, I mean, allow your muscle memory to get thoroughly relaxed and comfortable with it, it will reliably ramp up to any tempo you want.
I'm sorry to hear that you're immediately depending on the income. When I first set out from the N. Bennett St. school in FEB '72, the best I could muster was a 9A and a 1P. And that was with the advantage of a thorough understanding of the fabric formed by all of these partials. Two years later, I was up to a 9A, 11A, 1P and a 3P. Fortunately, my then-wife had a steady paycheck.
Keep two things in mind: 1.) You can't tune a piano unless it's in tune already, and 2.) you can't tune a piano unless you've already tuned a thousand. You may be jeopardizing the long-term prospects of your career move.
------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107
"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2022 19:48
From: Joshua Dellinger
Subject: Advice on reducing a beginner's tuning time
Hi, Folks. I'm a beginner who started business the middle of this month. Previous to this, I finished the tuning section on Rick Butler's course. I've begun tuning for my first client, which is probably the most suitable I could hope for: a county school system. I have my first in-home client this Friday, (whom I've duly warned of what I'm about to mention.)
I have a serious problem that's plaguing me: my tuning time is terrible. So far, unless the piano is already partly in tune, I've faced times upwards of 4.5-5 hours. This, of course, isn't great. In fact, it's no good, and it's exhausting.
Granted, some practice tunings aside, I am only on my 10th paid tuning. That said, this just seems untenable. I'm wondering if I'm not just being a bit perfectionist in my tunings, as even after such a lengthy tuning, I'm still often disatisfied. I'd hate the idea of delivering a bad tuning, but I'm beginning to see I may risk poor service all the same by taking so long.
On the advice of another tuner, I'm planing to start really limiting myself in time; having an overall time limit (maybe starting with 3hrs), as well as limits on certain parts, like tuning the treble, unisons, etc., doing my best within those constraints, then moving on.
In any case, I wanted to ask y'all about your experience as a beginner, your perspective on what I've said, and how you'd advise me to help address it.
I'm grateful for any input. Thank you very much
------------------------------
Joshua Dellinger
Catawba Valley Piano Services
Maiden, NC
cvpianoservices@gmail.com
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