CAUT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Is there a similar sensor or other protocol to improve accuracy in the low bass?

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Hi Parker:

I've been working with Steven for the past year on his sensor.  Leading up to this point, we tested many types of microphones and placement, and the results were not consistent.  This led us to pursue other types of sensors, like a Hall-effect, contact mics, piezo, and similar.  Then we tried using guitar-type pickups, but found that they are noisy and lacked enough sensitivity unless they were very close to the strings.  If they are too close, the magnets in the pickups are pulling on the strings and affect the pitch.  Steve's background in electronics and signal processing led him to a company that he is now using to produce the optimum combination of low noise and extreme sensitivity.  I have heard that Frank Illenberger, author of Pianoscope, has been experimenting with different ideas and pickups.  You might contact him and inquire about his experiences. 

Is there a similar sensor or other protocol to improve accuracy in the low bass?

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Have you tried non-magnetic guitar pickups such as Lace Sensor or Fishman Fluence?

Hi Parker:

I've been working with Steven for the past year on his sensor.  Leading up to this point, we tested many types of microphones and placement, and the results were not consistent.  This led us to pursue other types of sensors, like a Hall-effect, contact mics, piezo, and similar.  Then we tried using guitar-type pickups, but found that they are noisy and lacked enough sensitivity unless they were very close to the strings.  If they are too close, the magnets in the pickups are pulling on the strings and affect the pitch.  Steve's background in electronics and signal processing led him to a company that he is now using to produce the optimum combination of low noise and extreme sensitivity.  I have heard that Frank Illenberger, author of Pianoscope, has been experimenting with different ideas and pickups.  You might contact him and inquire about his experiences. 

Is there a similar sensor or other protocol to improve accuracy in the low bass?

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Are you certain they are not magnetic?  They look like ordinary pickups.  If they aren't magnetic, how do they work?  

Have you tried non-magnetic guitar pickups such as Lace Sensor or Fishman Fluence?

Hi Parker:

I've been working with Steven for the past year on his sensor.  Leading up to this point, we tested many types of microphones and placement, and the results were not consistent.  This led us to pursue other types of sensors, like a Hall-effect, contact mics, piezo, and similar.  Then we tried using guitar-type pickups, but found that they are noisy and lacked enough sensitivity unless they were very close to the strings.  If they are too close, the magnets in the pickups are pulling on the strings and affect the pitch.  Steve's background in electronics and signal processing led him to a company that he is now using to produce the optimum combination of low noise and extreme sensitivity.  I have heard that Frank Illenberger, author of Pianoscope, has been experimenting with different ideas and pickups.  You might contact him and inquire about his experiences. 

Is there a similar sensor or other protocol to improve accuracy in the low bass?

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

Yes.  If you put it at the top of the strings, the core wire will adhere nicely to the magnetic sled of the sensor. The sensor is shipped with an extra magnet, which can be placed behind the sled, like a train car behind the locomotive.  Or the magnet can be placed side by side, or even on top of the sled magnet.  I find it helpful to put a piece of electrical tape on the bottom of the sled, which helps keep it sticking to the strings and not twisting around.  In the tenor section, I found that placing a magnet against the pressure bar acts as a spacer and adds extra holding power.  The sled then is side by side and underneath that magnet. 

The best position of the pickup is near the end of the strings, as it gives the steadiest indication.  The partial strength is greater there.

For the treble where the dampers are too close to the hammers, the sensor is able to pick up the vibration of the strings from the next note over.  So where the dampers are too close to the hammer, put the pickup on the next note.  It does take a little finesse to route the wire from the sensor around the hammer line.  Spinets and consoles can be done this way, but it's much easier on larger uprights where there is more room.  Past the dampers you can put it farther below the hammers, and use a mute strip and/or individual mute above it. 

There is another device called a Helpinstill, which was invented back in the '70's and it is used to mic a piano with a magnetic strip pickup.  This strip is held with metal brackets, either above or below the strings.  I have used this on upright pianos with some success, and also grands, but there's quite a bit of time necessary to install it and again remove it when you're done.  I finally gave up on it.  The other problem with the Helpinstill is that it picks up vibrations from all the strings, so any undamped strings will add noise  and unwanted resonances to the input of your ETD.  I have a venue with two grand pianos with the Helpinstill installed, but I found it better to use the Pianosens.  You can look up the Helpinstill devices on the internet to get the full story.  But be aware also that any magnetic pickup will affect the measurement of the pitch if the magnetic field is too close to the strings.  Guitar players know about this.  That's why we had to develop a totally new sensor to get an accurate measurement so it wouldn't affect the string pitch by placing it far away from the string, and yet put out enough signal to power the ETD.

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

Paul's explanation is really good! I endorse it.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 01:15
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Yes.  If you put it at the top of the strings, the core wire will adhere nicely to the magnetic sled of the sensor. The sensor is shipped with an extra magnet, which can be placed behind the sled, like a train car behind the locomotive.  Or the magnet can be placed side by side, or even on top of the sled magnet.  I find it helpful to put a piece of electrical tape on the bottom of the sled, which helps keep it sticking to the strings and not twisting around.  In the tenor section, I found that placing a magnet against the pressure bar acts as a spacer and adds extra holding power.  The sled then is side by side and underneath that magnet. 

The best position of the pickup is near the end of the strings, as it gives the steadiest indication.  The partial strength is greater there.

For the treble where the dampers are too close to the hammers, the sensor is able to pick up the vibration of the strings from the next note over.  So where the dampers are too close to the hammer, put the pickup on the next note.  It does take a little finesse to route the wire from the sensor around the hammer line.  Spinets and consoles can be done this way, but it's much easier on larger uprights where there is more room.  Past the dampers you can put it farther below the hammers, and use a mute strip and/or individual mute above it. 

There is another device called a Helpinstill, which was invented back in the '70's and it is used to mic a piano with a magnetic strip pickup.  This strip is held with metal brackets, either above or below the strings.  I have used this on upright pianos with some success, and also grands, but there's quite a bit of time necessary to install it and again remove it when you're done.  I finally gave up on it.  The other problem with the Helpinstill is that it picks up vibrations from all the strings, so any undamped strings will add noise  and unwanted resonances to the input of your ETD.  I have a venue with two grand pianos with the Helpinstill installed, but I found it better to use the Pianosens.  You can look up the Helpinstill devices on the internet to get the full story.  But be aware also that any magnetic pickup will affect the measurement of the pitch if the magnetic field is too close to the strings.  Guitar players know about this.  That's why we had to develop a totally new sensor to get an accurate measurement so it wouldn't affect the string pitch by placing it far away from the string, and yet put out enough signal to power the ETD.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 00:21
From: Ernest Unrau
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

Yes, that's a helpful description. I edited my original post to improve my question, but I'll repeat the latter portion of the revision as it affects uprights:

I'm speculating if there might be the option of a configuration that is able to insert  the pickup between strings of the adjacent note(s) yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard and/or plate, to enable it to pick up the vibrations from the back side of the strings? This would avoid both the hammer of the target note and a sub-optimal pickup position, and ought to solve the damper issue too since it could position the pickup at the strike-point, but is behind the strike-point.

The other thought is if blue-tooth connectivity would solve the cable connection issue.

------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 03:24
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Paul's explanation is really good! I endorse it.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 01:15
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Yes.  If you put it at the top of the strings, the core wire will adhere nicely to the magnetic sled of the sensor. The sensor is shipped with an extra magnet, which can be placed behind the sled, like a train car behind the locomotive.  Or the magnet can be placed side by side, or even on top of the sled magnet.  I find it helpful to put a piece of electrical tape on the bottom of the sled, which helps keep it sticking to the strings and not twisting around.  In the tenor section, I found that placing a magnet against the pressure bar acts as a spacer and adds extra holding power.  The sled then is side by side and underneath that magnet. 

The best position of the pickup is near the end of the strings, as it gives the steadiest indication.  The partial strength is greater there.

For the treble where the dampers are too close to the hammers, the sensor is able to pick up the vibration of the strings from the next note over.  So where the dampers are too close to the hammer, put the pickup on the next note.  It does take a little finesse to route the wire from the sensor around the hammer line.  Spinets and consoles can be done this way, but it's much easier on larger uprights where there is more room.  Past the dampers you can put it farther below the hammers, and use a mute strip and/or individual mute above it. 

There is another device called a Helpinstill, which was invented back in the '70's and it is used to mic a piano with a magnetic strip pickup.  This strip is held with metal brackets, either above or below the strings.  I have used this on upright pianos with some success, and also grands, but there's quite a bit of time necessary to install it and again remove it when you're done.  I finally gave up on it.  The other problem with the Helpinstill is that it picks up vibrations from all the strings, so any undamped strings will add noise  and unwanted resonances to the input of your ETD.  I have a venue with two grand pianos with the Helpinstill installed, but I found it better to use the Pianosens.  You can look up the Helpinstill devices on the internet to get the full story.  But be aware also that any magnetic pickup will affect the measurement of the pitch if the magnetic field is too close to the strings.  Guitar players know about this.  That's why we had to develop a totally new sensor to get an accurate measurement so it wouldn't affect the string pitch by placing it far away from the string, and yet put out enough signal to power the ETD.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 00:21
From: Ernest Unrau
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

Regarding Bluetooth, I had the same idea.  But Steve pointed out that the wireless options introduce noise and other problems, plus it necessitates a transmitter and battery which makes it more bulky. 

The question of a pickup placed behind the strings is a good one.  The problem is the size of the pickup.  In order to get enough gain without noise, the pickup design has to be a certain size because of the windings and magnets inside.  If the pickup doesn't have enough gain, you have to add more amplification.  Which can be done of course, and we do amplify it.  But the pickup itself has to be very low noise in itself, otherwise you'll simply amplify the noise.  Then there's ambient EMF's and electromagnetic interference from routers, cell phones, etc in the home.  We went through all of this.  Steve's background in signal processing was and is exactly in his area of expertise that we needed to solve these problems, along with the engineering expertise of the company making the sensors.  Unfortunately, you can't make it much smaller to allow it to fit between the strings, and it's too tall to fit between the strings and the plate.  Even if you could fit it behind, you have to have some way to position it precisely a certain distance from the strings so it won't pull on the strings and cause a bad reading. 

Yes, that's a helpful description. I edited my original post to improve my question, but I'll repeat the latter portion of the revision as it affects uprights:

I'm speculating if there might be the option of a configuration that is able to insert  the pickup between strings of the adjacent note(s) yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard and/or plate, to enable it to pick up the vibrations from the back side of the strings? This would avoid both the hammer of the target note and a sub-optimal pickup position, and ought to solve the damper issue too since it could position the pickup at the strike-point, but is behind the strike-point.

The other thought is if blue-tooth connectivity would solve the cable connection issue.

------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 03:24
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Paul's explanation is really good! I endorse it.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 01:15
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Yes.  If you put it at the top of the strings, the core wire will adhere nicely to the magnetic sled of the sensor. The sensor is shipped with an extra magnet, which can be placed behind the sled, like a train car behind the locomotive.  Or the magnet can be placed side by side, or even on top of the sled magnet.  I find it helpful to put a piece of electrical tape on the bottom of the sled, which helps keep it sticking to the strings and not twisting around.  In the tenor section, I found that placing a magnet against the pressure bar acts as a spacer and adds extra holding power.  The sled then is side by side and underneath that magnet. 

The best position of the pickup is near the end of the strings, as it gives the steadiest indication.  The partial strength is greater there.

For the treble where the dampers are too close to the hammers, the sensor is able to pick up the vibration of the strings from the next note over.  So where the dampers are too close to the hammer, put the pickup on the next note.  It does take a little finesse to route the wire from the sensor around the hammer line.  Spinets and consoles can be done this way, but it's much easier on larger uprights where there is more room.  Past the dampers you can put it farther below the hammers, and use a mute strip and/or individual mute above it. 

There is another device called a Helpinstill, which was invented back in the '70's and it is used to mic a piano with a magnetic strip pickup.  This strip is held with metal brackets, either above or below the strings.  I have used this on upright pianos with some success, and also grands, but there's quite a bit of time necessary to install it and again remove it when you're done.  I finally gave up on it.  The other problem with the Helpinstill is that it picks up vibrations from all the strings, so any undamped strings will add noise  and unwanted resonances to the input of your ETD.  I have a venue with two grand pianos with the Helpinstill installed, but I found it better to use the Pianosens.  You can look up the Helpinstill devices on the internet to get the full story.  But be aware also that any magnetic pickup will affect the measurement of the pitch if the magnetic field is too close to the strings.  Guitar players know about this.  That's why we had to develop a totally new sensor to get an accurate measurement so it wouldn't affect the string pitch by placing it far away from the string, and yet put out enough signal to power the ETD.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 00:21
From: Ernest Unrau
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

As a picture is worth 1,000 words as the saying goes, here is how I envision in my mind (2nd snapshot) that perhaps the pickup could be behind the strings for an upright piano, whereas the sensor would, I presume, need to be on top the strings for a grand as shown on the website for the device:

Regarding Bluetooth, I had the same idea.  But Steve pointed out that the wireless options introduce noise and other problems, plus it necessitates a transmitter and battery which makes it more bulky. 

The question of a pickup placed behind the strings is a good one.  The problem is the size of the pickup.  In order to get enough gain without noise, the pickup design has to be a certain size because of the windings and magnets inside.  If the pickup doesn't have enough gain, you have to add more amplification.  Which can be done of course, and we do amplify it.  But the pickup itself has to be very low noise in itself, otherwise you'll simply amplify the noise.  Then there's ambient EMF's and electromagnetic interference from routers, cell phones, etc in the home.  We went through all of this.  Steve's background in signal processing was and is exactly in his area of expertise that we needed to solve these problems, along with the engineering expertise of the company making the sensors.  Unfortunately, you can't make it much smaller to allow it to fit between the strings, and it's too tall to fit between the strings and the plate.  Even if you could fit it behind, you have to have some way to position it precisely a certain distance from the strings so it won't pull on the strings and cause a bad reading. 

Yes, that's a helpful description. I edited my original post to improve my question, but I'll repeat the latter portion of the revision as it affects uprights:

I'm speculating if there might be the option of a configuration that is able to insert  the pickup between strings of the adjacent note(s) yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard and/or plate, to enable it to pick up the vibrations from the back side of the strings? This would avoid both the hammer of the target note and a sub-optimal pickup position, and ought to solve the damper issue too since it could position the pickup at the strike-point, but is behind the strike-point.

The other thought is if blue-tooth connectivity would solve the cable connection issue.

------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 03:24
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Paul's explanation is really good! I endorse it.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 01:15
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Yes.  If you put it at the top of the strings, the core wire will adhere nicely to the magnetic sled of the sensor. The sensor is shipped with an extra magnet, which can be placed behind the sled, like a train car behind the locomotive.  Or the magnet can be placed side by side, or even on top of the sled magnet.  I find it helpful to put a piece of electrical tape on the bottom of the sled, which helps keep it sticking to the strings and not twisting around.  In the tenor section, I found that placing a magnet against the pressure bar acts as a spacer and adds extra holding power.  The sled then is side by side and underneath that magnet. 

The best position of the pickup is near the end of the strings, as it gives the steadiest indication.  The partial strength is greater there.

For the treble where the dampers are too close to the hammers, the sensor is able to pick up the vibration of the strings from the next note over.  So where the dampers are too close to the hammer, put the pickup on the next note.  It does take a little finesse to route the wire from the sensor around the hammer line.  Spinets and consoles can be done this way, but it's much easier on larger uprights where there is more room.  Past the dampers you can put it farther below the hammers, and use a mute strip and/or individual mute above it. 

There is another device called a Helpinstill, which was invented back in the '70's and it is used to mic a piano with a magnetic strip pickup.  This strip is held with metal brackets, either above or below the strings.  I have used this on upright pianos with some success, and also grands, but there's quite a bit of time necessary to install it and again remove it when you're done.  I finally gave up on it.  The other problem with the Helpinstill is that it picks up vibrations from all the strings, so any undamped strings will add noise  and unwanted resonances to the input of your ETD.  I have a venue with two grand pianos with the Helpinstill installed, but I found it better to use the Pianosens.  You can look up the Helpinstill devices on the internet to get the full story.  But be aware also that any magnetic pickup will affect the measurement of the pitch if the magnetic field is too close to the strings.  Guitar players know about this.  That's why we had to develop a totally new sensor to get an accurate measurement so it wouldn't affect the string pitch by placing it far away from the string, and yet put out enough signal to power the ETD.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 00:21
From: Ernest Unrau
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

The design of magnetic pickups requires a magnet to induce a magnetic field into a wire.  A coil is placed to intersect with the magnetic field in the wire, so that any movement of the magnetically charged wire will induce a current in the coil.  In your drawing, you would need a magnet near the wire(s) to make it work, and a coil nearby to pick up the vibration.  Pickups are almost always designed with the magnet and coil in one unit, sharing the same center line.  But it is possible to have a magnet on the other side of the string opposite the coil.  Obviously, this would not be ideal for our purpose, but it would otherwise work.  There is a limiting factor in producing the coils small enough to fit between the strings, and that is that the coil is made of thousands of turns of extremely fine wire.  That takes some space.  And those fine wires are very fragile too.  So you have to have a protected environment.  Then, you have to shield the coil from interference and hum, or that will confuse the app too.  These things are not easy to produce, and finding the right configuration is the job of engineering companies who specialize in magnetics.  Believe me, I'm thinking the same as you, to put it behind the strings, but in reality it's just not going to work.

As a picture is worth 1,000 words as the saying goes, here is how I envision in my mind (2nd snapshot) that perhaps the pickup could be behind the strings for an upright piano, whereas the sensor would, I presume, need to be on top the strings for a grand as shown on the website for the device:

Regarding Bluetooth, I had the same idea.  But Steve pointed out that the wireless options introduce noise and other problems, plus it necessitates a transmitter and battery which makes it more bulky. 

The question of a pickup placed behind the strings is a good one.  The problem is the size of the pickup.  In order to get enough gain without noise, the pickup design has to be a certain size because of the windings and magnets inside.  If the pickup doesn't have enough gain, you have to add more amplification.  Which can be done of course, and we do amplify it.  But the pickup itself has to be very low noise in itself, otherwise you'll simply amplify the noise.  Then there's ambient EMF's and electromagnetic interference from routers, cell phones, etc in the home.  We went through all of this.  Steve's background in signal processing was and is exactly in his area of expertise that we needed to solve these problems, along with the engineering expertise of the company making the sensors.  Unfortunately, you can't make it much smaller to allow it to fit between the strings, and it's too tall to fit between the strings and the plate.  Even if you could fit it behind, you have to have some way to position it precisely a certain distance from the strings so it won't pull on the strings and cause a bad reading. 

Yes, that's a helpful description. I edited my original post to improve my question, but I'll repeat the latter portion of the revision as it affects uprights:

I'm speculating if there might be the option of a configuration that is able to insert  the pickup between strings of the adjacent note(s) yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard and/or plate, to enable it to pick up the vibrations from the back side of the strings? This would avoid both the hammer of the target note and a sub-optimal pickup position, and ought to solve the damper issue too since it could position the pickup at the strike-point, but is behind the strike-point.

The other thought is if blue-tooth connectivity would solve the cable connection issue.

------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 03:24
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Paul's explanation is really good! I endorse it.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 01:15
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Yes.  If you put it at the top of the strings, the core wire will adhere nicely to the magnetic sled of the sensor. The sensor is shipped with an extra magnet, which can be placed behind the sled, like a train car behind the locomotive.  Or the magnet can be placed side by side, or even on top of the sled magnet.  I find it helpful to put a piece of electrical tape on the bottom of the sled, which helps keep it sticking to the strings and not twisting around.  In the tenor section, I found that placing a magnet against the pressure bar acts as a spacer and adds extra holding power.  The sled then is side by side and underneath that magnet. 

The best position of the pickup is near the end of the strings, as it gives the steadiest indication.  The partial strength is greater there.

For the treble where the dampers are too close to the hammers, the sensor is able to pick up the vibration of the strings from the next note over.  So where the dampers are too close to the hammer, put the pickup on the next note.  It does take a little finesse to route the wire from the sensor around the hammer line.  Spinets and consoles can be done this way, but it's much easier on larger uprights where there is more room.  Past the dampers you can put it farther below the hammers, and use a mute strip and/or individual mute above it. 

There is another device called a Helpinstill, which was invented back in the '70's and it is used to mic a piano with a magnetic strip pickup.  This strip is held with metal brackets, either above or below the strings.  I have used this on upright pianos with some success, and also grands, but there's quite a bit of time necessary to install it and again remove it when you're done.  I finally gave up on it.  The other problem with the Helpinstill is that it picks up vibrations from all the strings, so any undamped strings will add noise  and unwanted resonances to the input of your ETD.  I have a venue with two grand pianos with the Helpinstill installed, but I found it better to use the Pianosens.  You can look up the Helpinstill devices on the internet to get the full story.  But be aware also that any magnetic pickup will affect the measurement of the pitch if the magnetic field is too close to the strings.  Guitar players know about this.  That's why we had to develop a totally new sensor to get an accurate measurement so it wouldn't affect the string pitch by placing it far away from the string, and yet put out enough signal to power the ETD.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2024 00:21
From: Ernest Unrau
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Will the device hold its position on the wound bass strings of an upright piano?
Also how does one go about positioning the device for the high treble strings of the upright and still allow for a hammer strike? I'm wondering if there could be the option of a special version that fits between the notes of string yet is short enough to avoid the soundboard, and picks up the vibration from the back side of the strings?
------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB
------------------------------

Hi Parker:

I've been working with Steven for the past year on his sensor.  Leading up to this point, we tested many types of microphones and placement, and the results were not consistent.  This led us to pursue other types of sensors, like a Hall-effect, contact mics, piezo, and similar.  Then we tried using guitar-type pickups, but found that they are noisy and lacked enough sensitivity unless they were very close to the strings.  If they are too close, the magnets in the pickups are pulling on the strings and affect the pitch.  Steve's background in electronics and signal processing led him to a company that he is now using to produce the optimum combination of low noise and extreme sensitivity.  I have heard that Frank Illenberger, author of Pianoscope, has been experimenting with different ideas and pickups.  You might contact him and inquire about his experiences. 

Is there a similar sensor or other protocol to improve accuracy in the low bass?

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Can you comment on the utility of this sensor for voicing hammers? Such as, if the graph of partials like those viewed on the "bass error" video are accurate and reliable enough from note to note, then might that also assist as a visual guide to analyze the characteristics of each hammer and each note to help guide us in voicing the hammers?

For example, sample "A" might be judged as "perfect" with such-and-such an "ideal" graph, while sample "B" might be assessed as weak for such-and-such partials compared to sample "A", and therefore this chemical hardener or this needling will help adjust the hammer to improve the weaker partials to match sample "A". 

Just speculating if this device can "focus" on the individual strings and give better readings than a mic in some device or ETD, if this sensor might unlock voicing secrets by giving better input to guide voicing techniques than by ear or mic, as the acoustics of any room will ALWAYS change the note being worked on. Just like a mic, moving your ear a few inches here or there can change the aural "impact" of any given note, making objective voicing assessments difficult to achieve.

------------------------------
Ernest Unrau
Morden MB

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2024 11:14
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Hi Parker:

I've been working with Steven for the past year on his sensor.  Leading up to this point, we tested many types of microphones and placement, and the results were not consistent.  This led us to pursue other types of sensors, like a Hall-effect, contact mics, piezo, and similar.  Then we tried using guitar-type pickups, but found that they are noisy and lacked enough sensitivity unless they were very close to the strings.  If they are too close, the magnets in the pickups are pulling on the strings and affect the pitch.  Steve's background in electronics and signal processing led him to a company that he is now using to produce the optimum combination of low noise and extreme sensitivity.  I have heard that Frank Illenberger, author of Pianoscope, has been experimenting with different ideas and pickups.  You might contact him and inquire about his experiences. 

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2024 10:40
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Is there a similar sensor or other protocol to improve accuracy in the low bass?

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2024 07:20
From: David Brown
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2024 01:06
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101
------------------------------

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Hi David,

I will have to go check which partials are off by how much, individually, I can do that off line in Matlab with my signal processing programs. I'll get back with you later in the week.

Best,

Steve

Hi Steven-

Thanks for your work, very interesting. Can you tell me at which partial this 1 cent variance occurs? 

Many thanks-

DB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Have you tried mics built for low frequency such as:  sennheiser md421,  Shure Beta or other kick drum mics?

Have you tried Lace Alumitone 6 bass guitar pickups?

/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Neumann 183's, I have them, they are flat to below 20 Hz.

Talk to any recording engineer who specializes in piano. You get a different sound (spectra) at every little change of location. 

The sensor is consistent because it looks at what is happing at the string. 

Have you tried mics built for low frequency such as:  sennheiser md421,  Shure Beta or other kick drum mics?

Have you tried Lace Alumitone 6 bass guitar pickups?

/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Are they omni or cardoid?

Neumann 183's, I have them, they are flat to below 20 Hz.

Talk to any recording engineer who specializes in piano. You get a different sound (spectra) at every little change of location. 

The sensor is consistent because it looks at what is happing at the string. 

Have you tried mics built for low frequency such as:  sennheiser md421,  Shure Beta or other kick drum mics?

Have you tried Lace Alumitone 6 bass guitar pickups?

/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Neumann 183's, I have them, they are flat to below 20 Hz.

Talk to any recording engineer who specializes in piano. You get a different sound (spectra) at every little change of location. 

The sensor is consistent because it looks at what is happing at the string. 

Have you tried mics built for low frequency such as:  sennheiser md421,  Shure Beta or other kick drum mics?

Have you tried Lace Alumitone 6 bass guitar pickups?

/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188

Re. "I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the string makes no sound."

It might not be totally correct that the string makes no sound, but it makes very little. A tuning fork demonstrates that principle for you: thump it and hold it any significant distance from your ear, and you hear next to nothing. Touch the heel of the tuning fork to any object capable of responding to the tuning fork's transducer effect, the soundboard especially, and now the sound waves are coupled to the air via the vibrations of the membrane and the sound waves can be detected by your ears.

Re. "I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the string makes no sound."

It might not be totally correct that the string makes no sound, but it makes very little. A tuning fork demonstrates that principle for you: thump it and hold it any significant distance from your ear, and you hear next to nothing. Touch the heel of the tuning fork to any object capable of responding to the tuning fork's transducer effect, the soundboard especially, and now the sound waves are coupled to the air via the vibrations of the membrane and the sound waves can be detected by your ears.

There are an infinite number of ways a person 'listens' to piano, hence there is NO objective basis, no standard, no deterministic way to assess what is 'real.' What is 'real' is what is 'real' to that person at that position in space at that particular moment in time. So squishy, so subjective, so non-repeatable. What do you tune to? Answer: to that person's perception of their personal acoustic transfer function, which not only includes the physical position of their ears or the mic of that moment, but also their aural hearing transfer function that day and at that time also? Don't you get the whole point of using the sensor? Please forgive me. I am both a degreed engineer and a degreed musician and an experienced recording engineer, all of the above, I believe it is the role of the scientist in me to get to the root of the issue, and as a musician to know the aesthetic issues of perception. If you want to see a zoom presentation and research and signal processing examples, I am happy to provide if you want me to do the 'class' on zoom to your local PTG or to a group of a few people you put together. I am a 'good professor.' You will not be disappointed by my objectivity.

Re. "I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the string makes no sound."

It might not be totally correct that the string makes no sound, but it makes very little. A tuning fork demonstrates that principle for you: thump it and hold it any significant distance from your ear, and you hear next to nothing. Touch the heel of the tuning fork to any object capable of responding to the tuning fork's transducer effect, the soundboard especially, and now the sound waves are coupled to the air via the vibrations of the membrane and the sound waves can be detected by your ears.

Re. "I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the string makes no sound."

It might not be totally correct that the string makes no sound, but it makes very little. A tuning fork demonstrates that principle for you: thump it and hold it any significant distance from your ear, and you hear next to nothing. Touch the heel of the tuning fork to any object capable of responding to the tuning fork's transducer effect, the soundboard especially, and now the sound waves are coupled to the air via the vibrations of the membrane and the sound waves can be detected by your ears.