Hi, Steven,
It's all squishy. All of these perceptions are squishy by their nature,
which is, in large part precisely because human perception is (so far)
ineffable.
People go to art museums, ballets, concerts, listen to their audio
systems (home theaters), read poetry, sit in the park; and any number of
other artistic activities all accompanied only by their "wetware"; and
the life experience which they bring with them. It's all squishy.
Aldous Huxley once captured the nature of the problem in an essay
entitled: Music at Night:
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible
is music."
I am not a degreed engineer, or a degreed musician. The degree that I
have, but do not use, is in law. While I do not consider myself to be a
recording engineer, much of my professional life has been involved in
recording studios and situations; and I have done a modest amount,
myself, thus, my collection of microphones.
At the same time, for over seventy years, I have attended, performed in,
and prepared pianos for concerts (and recordings) in a fairly wide
number of venues and situations. While I have, in all that time, seen
many instances of folks sitting in audiences following scores, I have
never seen anyone doing the same thing with any kind of tuning device
other than their ears. Perhaps that will change.
While it is not in my purview to invite you to present, I will make sure
that folks know of your offer; and encourage them to invite you.
Thank you very much.
Kind regards.
Horace
On 1/5/2024 8:32 PM, Steven Norsworthy via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> There are an infinite number of ways a person 'listens' to piano, hence there is NO objective basis, no standard, no deterministic way to assess what is 'real.' What is 'real' is what is 'real' to that person at that position in space at that particular moment in time. So squishy, so subjective, so non-repeatable. What do you tune to? Answer: to that person's perception of their personal acoustic transfer function, which not only includes the physical position of their ears or the mic of that moment, but also their aural hearing transfer function that day and at that time also? Don't you get the whole point of using the sensor? Please forgive me. I am both a degreed engineer and a degreed musician and an experienced recording engineer, all of the above, I believe it is the role of the scientist in me to get to the root of the issue, and as a musician to know the aesthetic issues of perception. If you want to see a zoom presentation and research and signal processing exampl!
es, I am
> happy to provide if you want me to do the 'class' on zoom to your local PTG or to a group of a few people you put together. I am a 'good professor.' You will not be disappointed by my objectivity.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Steven Norsworthy
> Cardiff By The Sea CA
> (619) 964-0101
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 01-05-2024 22:55
> From: Horace Greeley
> Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>
> Hello, Steven,
>
> Thoughts interspersed:
>
> On 1/5/2024 7:36 PM, Steven Norsworthy via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>> In order to make ???sound??? you have to ???move air??? and so the string by itself moves very little air. The soundboard moves orders of magnitude more air.
>
> Yes; but that's not what you originally wrote.
>
>> Think of the piano as a mechanical-to-acoustic transducer. It transforms mechanical vibration into acoustic waves.
>>
>
> Precisely.
>
>> Now think of a microphone as an acoustic-to-electrical transducer. It transforms acoustic waves into electrical signals.
>>
>
> Right.
>
>> Now think of the PianoSens device. It BYPASSES THE ACOUSTIC DOMAIN. It DIRECTLY transforms mechanical movement (string movement) into electrical signals.
>>
>> Hence, there is no transformational loss. It is repeatable and accurate.
>>
>
> Yes, as long as one is very clear that it is only reporting on that
> which it is picking up; an nothing else.
>
>> Think that the soundboard has an infinite number of acoustic responses depending on the position of the mic or the listener. PianoSens removes all that uncertainty. It takes an infinite number of possible transfer functions down into only ONE transfer function.
>>
>
> Exactly the problem.
>
> In removing all other potential transfer functions, the s PianoSens
> device appears to remove the very transfer functions which are within
> the audible range usable to the human ear. That is, the transfer that
> it measures will definitionally be different from the sound of the same
> piano.
>
>> Try it and you will see. It is ???invariant??? by design.
>
> Indeed so. Is that how human beings listen to pianos?
>
> More to follow.
>
>
>>
>> Steven Norsworthy
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> Original Message:
>> Sent: 1/5/2024 8:13:00 PM
>> From: Ernest Unrau
>> Subject: RE: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>
>>
>> Re. "I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the string makes no sound."
>>
>>
>> It might not be totally correct that the string makes no sound, but it makes very little. A tuning fork demonstrates that principle for you: thump it and hold it any significant distance from your ear, and you hear next to nothing. Touch the heel of the tuning fork to any object capable of responding to the tuning fork's transducer effect, the soundboard especially, and now the sound waves are coupled to the air via the vibrations of the membrane and the sound waves can be detected by your ears.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Ernest Unrau
>> Morden MB
>> ------------------------------
>> -------------------------------------------
>> Original Message:
>> Sent: 01-05-2024 00:37
>> From: Horace Greeley
>> Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>
>> Hi, Steve,
>>
>> Let's stipulate that this is correct.
>>
>> I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the
>> string makes no sound.
>>
>> Kind regards.
>>
>> Horace
>>
>> On 1/4/2024 8:54 PM, Steven Norsworthy via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>>> Horace,
>>>
>>> It???s the soundboard that produces the acoustic wave, not the string. Therefore, proximity to the string is not important for the mic. It is critically important to the sensor, which does not ???hear??? anything acoustically. It only measures what is happening on the sting. The mic cannot do that. The string makes no sound!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> Original Message:
>>> Sent: 1/4/2024 11:42:00 PM
>>> From: Horace Greeley
>>> Subject: RE: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> While I generally prefer a larger diaphragm mic for piano the KM 183s,
>>> used well, can sound really good.
>>>
>>> I must admit that, while the Sennheiser MD421 doesn't do much for me as
>>> a piano mic. I know that they are used as such; and have seen that in a
>>> number of situations. Still, it's a dynamic mic, not a condensor.
>>> Also, it's range of 30Hz to 17KHz reflects the antiquity of its design.
>>> I don't think that it's a very good mic for low frequencies. Still,
>>> it does a number of things really well...drum sets, vocals, most winds,
>>> a number of others. I've even heard them used on Leslies. For those
>>> kinds of applications, they seem fine.
>>>
>>> The Sennheiser mics that I prefer for piano are the MKH 8020. Also
>>> omni. Like the Neumann KM 8x and KM 18x series, these mics are much
>>> more forgiving of the vagaries of recording a piano than are many others.
>>>
>>> In my own travels and the vagaries of our work, I've picked up small
>>> collection of mics from various makers. Each designer/maker seems to
>>> have a particular sound in their heads...perhaps in their sights.... I
>>> note that because I have listened to the mics that I own (including AEA,
>>> Neumann, Schoeps, Sennheiser) seem to have a "company sound" for lack of
>>> a better phrase. I found this particularly true as I gradually shifted
>>> my Neumann collection to ones that had been rebuilt/upgraded by Klaus
>>> Heyne, or someone in his company. These were very consistent; and,
>>> usable for almost anything. My one regret is that, in a moment of
>>> weakness, I traded a pair of original U47s for the pair of U87s I now
>>> have. The latter are truly amazing; but the former had more soul.
>>>
>>> My only concern for using any mics like this for piano tuning has to do
>>> with the necessary proximity to the string. No matter how good they may
>>> be, they're all too big. Thus, I am very enthusiastic about this
>>> research; and am very interested in how things unfold.
>>>
>>> Please do let us know how go!
>>>
>>> Thank you very much.
>>>
>>> Kind regards.
>>>
>>> Horace
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/4/2024 12:11 PM, Steven Norsworthy via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>>>> Neumann 183's, I have them, they are flat to below 20 Hz.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Talk to any recording engineer who specializes in piano. You get a different sound (spectra) at every little change of location.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The sensor is consistent because it looks at what is happing at the string.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Steven Norsworthy
>>>> Cardiff By The Sea CA
>>>> (619) 964-0101
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> Original Message:
>>>> Sent: 01-04-2024 10:11
>>>> From: Parker Leigh
>>>> Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have you tried mics built for low frequency such as: sennheiser md421, Shure Beta or other kick drum mics?
>>>>
>>>> Have you tried Lace Alumitone 6 bass guitar pickups?
>>>>
>>>> /
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Parker Leigh RPT
>>>> Winchester VA
>>>> (540) 722-3865
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Original Message:
>>>> Sent: 01-01-2024 01:06
>>>> From: Steven Norsworthy
>>>> Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>>>
>>>> Tuners generally agree with me that the benefits are significant for tuning accuracy using a string sensor in the upper register of the piano where 'acoustic false beats' are eliminated with the sensor vs the mic. However, astonishingly, there are huge variances tuning in the low register due to suppressed partials with the mic. These variances I show can be as much as 1 cent.I created a Youtube video and explanation and link below. Please watch and let me know what you think. By the way, I was very much surprised myself from this. Best regards, and Happy New Year! Respectfully yours,Steven NorsworthyJan 1, 2024
>>>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188 <https:
www.youtube.com/watch?v="VCVVjcOg188">>
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Original Message:
Sent: 1/5/2024 11:32:00 PM
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: RE: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
There are an infinite number of ways a person 'listens' to piano, hence there is NO objective basis, no standard, no deterministic way to assess what is 'real.' What is 'real' is what is 'real' to that person at that position in space at that particular moment in time. So squishy, so subjective, so non-repeatable. What do you tune to? Answer: to that person's perception of their personal acoustic transfer function, which not only includes the physical position of their ears or the mic of that moment, but also their aural hearing transfer function that day and at that time also? Don't you get the whole point of using the sensor? Please forgive me. I am both a degreed engineer and a degreed musician and an experienced recording engineer, all of the above, I believe it is the role of the scientist in me to get to the root of the issue, and as a musician to know the aesthetic issues of perception. If you want to see a zoom presentation and research and signal processing examples, I am happy to provide if you want me to do the 'class' on zoom to your local PTG or to a group of a few people you put together. I am a 'good professor.' You will not be disappointed by my objectivity.
------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101
------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2024 22:55
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
Hello, Steven,
Thoughts interspersed:
On 1/5/2024 7:36 PM, Steven Norsworthy via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> In order to make ???sound??? you have to ???move air??? and so the string by itself moves very little air. The soundboard moves orders of magnitude more air.
Yes; but that's not what you originally wrote.
> Think of the piano as a mechanical-to-acoustic transducer. It transforms mechanical vibration into acoustic waves.
>
Precisely.
> Now think of a microphone as an acoustic-to-electrical transducer. It transforms acoustic waves into electrical signals.
>
Right.
> Now think of the PianoSens device. It BYPASSES THE ACOUSTIC DOMAIN. It DIRECTLY transforms mechanical movement (string movement) into electrical signals.
>
> Hence, there is no transformational loss. It is repeatable and accurate.
>
Yes, as long as one is very clear that it is only reporting on that
which it is picking up; an nothing else.
> Think that the soundboard has an infinite number of acoustic responses depending on the position of the mic or the listener. PianoSens removes all that uncertainty. It takes an infinite number of possible transfer functions down into only ONE transfer function.
>
Exactly the problem.
In removing all other potential transfer functions, the s PianoSens
device appears to remove the very transfer functions which are within
the audible range usable to the human ear. That is, the transfer that
it measures will definitionally be different from the sound of the same
piano.
> Try it and you will see. It is ???invariant??? by design.
Indeed so. Is that how human beings listen to pianos?
More to follow.
>
> Steven Norsworthy
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 1/5/2024 8:13:00 PM
> From: Ernest Unrau
> Subject: RE: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>
>
> Re. "I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the string makes no sound."
>
>
> It might not be totally correct that the string makes no sound, but it makes very little. A tuning fork demonstrates that principle for you: thump it and hold it any significant distance from your ear, and you hear next to nothing. Touch the heel of the tuning fork to any object capable of responding to the tuning fork's transducer effect, the soundboard especially, and now the sound waves are coupled to the air via the vibrations of the membrane and the sound waves can be detected by your ears.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Ernest Unrau
> Morden MB
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 01-05-2024 00:37
> From: Horace Greeley
> Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>
> Hi, Steve,
>
> Let's stipulate that this is correct.
>
> I'm interested in the reductive analysis that establishes that the
> string makes no sound.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> Horace
>
> On 1/4/2024 8:54 PM, Steven Norsworthy via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>> Horace,
>>
>> It???s the soundboard that produces the acoustic wave, not the string. Therefore, proximity to the string is not important for the mic. It is critically important to the sensor, which does not ???hear??? anything acoustically. It only measures what is happening on the sting. The mic cannot do that. The string makes no sound!
>>
>> Best,
>> Steve
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> Original Message:
>> Sent: 1/4/2024 11:42:00 PM
>> From: Horace Greeley
>> Subject: RE: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> While I generally prefer a larger diaphragm mic for piano the KM 183s,
>> used well, can sound really good.
>>
>> I must admit that, while the Sennheiser MD421 doesn't do much for me as
>> a piano mic. I know that they are used as such; and have seen that in a
>> number of situations. Still, it's a dynamic mic, not a condensor.
>> Also, it's range of 30Hz to 17KHz reflects the antiquity of its design.
>> I don't think that it's a very good mic for low frequencies. Still,
>> it does a number of things really well...drum sets, vocals, most winds,
>> a number of others. I've even heard them used on Leslies. For those
>> kinds of applications, they seem fine.
>>
>> The Sennheiser mics that I prefer for piano are the MKH 8020. Also
>> omni. Like the Neumann KM 8x and KM 18x series, these mics are much
>> more forgiving of the vagaries of recording a piano than are many others.
>>
>> In my own travels and the vagaries of our work, I've picked up small
>> collection of mics from various makers. Each designer/maker seems to
>> have a particular sound in their heads...perhaps in their sights.... I
>> note that because I have listened to the mics that I own (including AEA,
>> Neumann, Schoeps, Sennheiser) seem to have a "company sound" for lack of
>> a better phrase. I found this particularly true as I gradually shifted
>> my Neumann collection to ones that had been rebuilt/upgraded by Klaus
>> Heyne, or someone in his company. These were very consistent; and,
>> usable for almost anything. My one regret is that, in a moment of
>> weakness, I traded a pair of original U47s for the pair of U87s I now
>> have. The latter are truly amazing; but the former had more soul.
>>
>> My only concern for using any mics like this for piano tuning has to do
>> with the necessary proximity to the string. No matter how good they may
>> be, they're all too big. Thus, I am very enthusiastic about this
>> research; and am very interested in how things unfold.
>>
>> Please do let us know how go!
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>>
>> Kind regards.
>>
>> Horace
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/4/2024 12:11 PM, Steven Norsworthy via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>>> Neumann 183's, I have them, they are flat to below 20 Hz.
>>>
>>>
>>> Talk to any recording engineer who specializes in piano. You get a different sound (spectra) at every little change of location.
>>>
>>>
>>> The sensor is consistent because it looks at what is happing at the string.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Steven Norsworthy
>>> Cardiff By The Sea CA
>>> (619) 964-0101
>>> ------------------------------
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> Original Message:
>>> Sent: 01-04-2024 10:11
>>> From: Parker Leigh
>>> Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>>
>>>
>>> Have you tried mics built for low frequency such as: sennheiser md421, Shure Beta or other kick drum mics?
>>>
>>> Have you tried Lace Alumitone 6 bass guitar pickups?
>>>
>>> /
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Parker Leigh RPT
>>> Winchester VA
>>> (540) 722-3865
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Original Message:
>>> Sent: 01-01-2024 01:06
>>> From: Steven Norsworthy
>>> Subject: Significant tuning errors in lower register with mic-based ETD's
>>>
>>> Tuners generally agree with me that the benefits are significant for tuning accuracy using a string sensor in the upper register of the piano where 'acoustic false beats' are eliminated with the sensor vs the mic. However, astonishingly, there are huge variances tuning in the low register due to suppressed partials with the mic. These variances I show can be as much as 1 cent.I created a Youtube video and explanation and link below. Please watch and let me know what you think. By the way, I was very much surprised myself from this. Best regards, and Happy New Year! Respectfully yours,Steven NorsworthyJan 1, 2024
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVVjcOg188</https:>