Pianotech

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Wim,

The manufacturer recommended using a liquid lubricant such as Protek. The failure of that to remedy the problem is why I have brought it to these lists.

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Wim,

The manufacturer recommended using a liquid lubricant such as Protek. The failure of that to remedy the problem is why I have brought it to these lists.

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

No, they have not offered any other solutions, and the piano is out of warranty.

Alan

Wim,

The manufacturer recommended using a liquid lubricant such as Protek. The failure of that to remedy the problem is why I have brought it to these lists.

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

No, they have not offered any other solutions, and the piano is out of warranty.

Alan

Wim,

The manufacturer recommended using a liquid lubricant such as Protek. The failure of that to remedy the problem is why I have brought it to these lists.

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Wim,

I would prefer to try less invasive potential cures--if there are any--before resorting to replacing a string (or, for that matter, an agraffe).

Alan

No, they have not offered any other solutions, and the piano is out of warranty.

Alan

Wim,

The manufacturer recommended using a liquid lubricant such as Protek. The failure of that to remedy the problem is why I have brought it to these lists.

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Wim,

I would prefer to try less invasive potential cures--if there are any--before resorting to replacing a string (or, for that matter, an agraffe).

Alan

No, they have not offered any other solutions, and the piano is out of warranty.

Alan

Wim,

The manufacturer recommended using a liquid lubricant such as Protek. The failure of that to remedy the problem is why I have brought it to these lists.

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

You are reading the same posts I am, Wim.

Wim,

I would prefer to try less invasive potential cures--if there are any--before resorting to replacing a string (or, for that matter, an agraffe).

Alan

No, they have not offered any other solutions, and the piano is out of warranty.

Alan

Wim,

The manufacturer recommended using a liquid lubricant such as Protek. The failure of that to remedy the problem is why I have brought it to these lists.

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 14:02
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan,
Is it possible the agraffes have a coating (lacquer, etc.?)
I have heard that might be a culprit for the problem you describe.
There was an extensive discussion on this list a little while back positing that the tick sound is actually coming from the bearing felt, when friction releases the string. There may be some validity to that since you describe the condition as worsening over time.

I also deal with a very similar issue on a rebuilt Steinway B. I'd be very curious to hear other input as well.


Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 5/25/2023 9:51:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

--  Blaine Hebert

Original Message:
Sent: 5/26/2023 2:52:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Hi Joe,

This piano was acquired new, not rebuilt, and does not appear to have lacquer on the agraffes (although pretty much anything is possible, right?).

Yes, corrosion on the wire can make a ticking sound as it releases from being microscopically snagged on rest felt (I have lubricated there as well), but when the manufacturer confirmed that it was the wire in the agraffe, I became focused on that intersection.

Thanks for your input,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 14:02
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan,
Is it possible the agraffes have a coating (lacquer, etc.?)
I have heard that might be a culprit for the problem you describe.
There was an extensive discussion on this list a little while back positing that the tick sound is actually coming from the bearing felt, when friction releases the string. There may be some validity to that since you describe the condition as worsening over time.

I also deal with a very similar issue on a rebuilt Steinway B. I'd be very curious to hear other input as well.


Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 5/25/2023 9:51:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 22:03
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 21:37
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:51
From: Wim Blees
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 5/26/2023 7:36:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:20
From: Peter Grey
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 17:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2023 21:51
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Noooo!  Has anyone ever heard of verdigris?  Isn't "mutton tallow" what some prestigious manufacturer once used on action parts?  Isn't mutton tallow lanolin?  Please think this through!!!

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Noooo!  Has anyone ever heard of verdigris?  Isn't "mutton tallow" what some prestigious manufacturer once used on action parts?  Isn't mutton tallow lanolin?  Please think this through!!!

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Noooo!  Has anyone ever heard of verdigris?  Isn't "mutton tallow" what some prestigious manufacturer once used on action parts?  Isn't mutton tallow lanolin?  Please think this through!!!

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Stecen,

Throughout the agraffes, worse in the bass than in the tenor.

Alan

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Not sure what brand the piano in question is, but I had a Young Chang with the same problem. Tuning was difficult at best, impossible at worst. 

It turned out to be extreme friction in the felt / cloth under the strings before the agraffes. At the recommendation of a friend, I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended. However, it worked wonderfully and provided a waxy coat on that part of the string. The piano now tunes normally. It's been over a year since doing that, and I just saw the piano on Wednesday; no issues. My friend has been using it for about two decades now, in the same way, and hasn't reported any issues either. 

Stecen,

Throughout the agraffes, worse in the bass than in the tenor.

Alan

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Benjamin,

You wrote:
"I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended."

Guess I missed that article. Who says that it is not recommended (allegedly with the endorsement of the PTJ editors)? Lubricating the string to felt/cloth contact has worked for you (and me) and several others on this list. What is the reasoning behind NOT taking this approach? And what, if anything, was offered as a viable alternative?

Alan

Not sure what brand the piano in question is, but I had a Young Chang with the same problem. Tuning was difficult at best, impossible at worst. 

It turned out to be extreme friction in the felt / cloth under the strings before the agraffes. At the recommendation of a friend, I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended. However, it worked wonderfully and provided a waxy coat on that part of the string. The piano now tunes normally. It's been over a year since doing that, and I just saw the piano on Wednesday; no issues. My friend has been using it for about two decades now, in the same way, and hasn't reported any issues either. 

Stecen,

Throughout the agraffes, worse in the bass than in the tenor.

Alan

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

Technically speaking, this is really an issue of normal aging within a specific design of instrument. Within the first 5-10 years of "life" this problem generally dies not occur (much). However as the thing ages, the INTENSE pressure on the counterbearing cloth produces a glazed and hardened surface to the wire and all microscopic imperfections in the wire produce a mirror image on this underfelt. It is the forced movement of this that produces the ticking. Proof of this is if one hears a very high frequency pitch in conjunction with the ticking sound. This is the vibration of the forward NSL between the cloth edge and the tuning pin.

Previous to CBL (which I have been assured contains nothing that will travel) I used to use Protek. It was OK but often required two or three applications to fix the problem. CBL RARELY needs more than one application. And in all the time I've been using it, I believe I can count only two pianos that had a few notes that absolutely did not respond to it.

Similar to what Norm was describing I sometimes like to rub the entire surface of counterbearing to spread the stuff all over and try to work it under the strings. I also squirt it all along the agraffe line for good measure. Typically I will get one tick on the very first release and then it's smooth sailing after that.

Been a game changer for me.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 10:23
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Benjamin,

You wrote:
"I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended."

Guess I missed that article. Who says that it is not recommended (allegedly with the endorsement of the PTJ editors)? Lubricating the string to felt/cloth contact has worked for you (and me) and several others on this list. What is the reasoning behind NOT taking this approach? And what, if anything, was offered as a viable alternative?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 09:58
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Not sure what brand the piano in question is, but I had a Young Chang with the same problem. Tuning was difficult at best, impossible at worst. 

It turned out to be extreme friction in the felt / cloth under the strings before the agraffes. At the recommendation of a friend, I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended. However, it worked wonderfully and provided a waxy coat on that part of the string. The piano now tunes normally. It's been over a year since doing that, and I just saw the piano on Wednesday; no issues. My friend has been using it for about two decades now, in the same way, and hasn't reported any issues either. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 07:02
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Stecen,

Throughout the agraffes, worse in the bass than in the tenor.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 22:41
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 22:03
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 21:37
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:51
From: Wim Blees
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 5/26/2023 7:36:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:20
From: Peter Grey
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 17:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2023 21:51
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

It seems there are two possible assumptions, agraffes or felt (it couldn't possibly be binding at the bridge pins, could it?).
I've had some luck with using ProTec on the felts, agraffes, and other front bearing points. Some older Kawai KG's have a brown understring felt that does not do well with corroded strings, particularly in the agraffe sections and the lube helps a lot. But I don't think the agraffes being a problem can be completely discounted. Alan, in your case it might be worth removing one of the most offending strings and really inspect them, also remove the agraffe for inspection. I wonder if the agraffe develops a wire edge that flops back and forth or maybe a V groove that the string binds in.
Another odd thing I've noticed is that as vexing as these pianos are to tune, they tend to stay in tune quite well.
It just occurs to me that this problem seems to be with grands only, which would point toward the understring felt.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 21:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Technically speaking, this is really an issue of normal aging within a specific design of instrument. Within the first 5-10 years of "life" this problem generally dies not occur (much). However as the thing ages, the INTENSE pressure on the counterbearing cloth produces a glazed and hardened surface to the wire and all microscopic imperfections in the wire produce a mirror image on this underfelt. It is the forced movement of this that produces the ticking. Proof of this is if one hears a very high frequency pitch in conjunction with the ticking sound. This is the vibration of the forward NSL between the cloth edge and the tuning pin.

Previous to CBL (which I have been assured contains nothing that will travel) I used to use Protek. It was OK but often required two or three applications to fix the problem. CBL RARELY needs more than one application. And in all the time I've been using it, I believe I can count only two pianos that had a few notes that absolutely did not respond to it.

Similar to what Norm was describing I sometimes like to rub the entire surface of counterbearing to spread the stuff all over and try to work it under the strings. I also squirt it all along the agraffe line for good measure. Typically I will get one tick on the very first release and then it's smooth sailing after that.

Been a game changer for me.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 10:23
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Benjamin,

You wrote:
"I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended."

Guess I missed that article. Who says that it is not recommended (allegedly with the endorsement of the PTJ editors)? Lubricating the string to felt/cloth contact has worked for you (and me) and several others on this list. What is the reasoning behind NOT taking this approach? And what, if anything, was offered as a viable alternative?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 09:58
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Not sure what brand the piano in question is, but I had a Young Chang with the same problem. Tuning was difficult at best, impossible at worst. 

It turned out to be extreme friction in the felt / cloth under the strings before the agraffes. At the recommendation of a friend, I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended. However, it worked wonderfully and provided a waxy coat on that part of the string. The piano now tunes normally. It's been over a year since doing that, and I just saw the piano on Wednesday; no issues. My friend has been using it for about two decades now, in the same way, and hasn't reported any issues either. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 07:02
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Stecen,

Throughout the agraffes, worse in the bass than in the tenor.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 22:41
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 22:03
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 21:37
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:51
From: Wim Blees
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 5/26/2023 7:36:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:20
From: Peter Grey
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 17:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2023 21:51
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan, Ive been following this thread. Is the piano you have been talking about of recent manufacture (last 10 - 15 years) and something like Pearl River, or other, manufactured in China? I've noticed a type of clicking when tuning on many of these pianos and just live with it. I have always suspected plated wire and also have observed that these pianos often do seem to be pretty stable. Yes, I wonder why it happens.

It seems there are two possible assumptions, agraffes or felt (it couldn't possibly be binding at the bridge pins, could it?).
I've had some luck with using ProTec on the felts, agraffes, and other front bearing points. Some older Kawai KG's have a brown understring felt that does not do well with corroded strings, particularly in the agraffe sections and the lube helps a lot. But I don't think the agraffes being a problem can be completely discounted. Alan, in your case it might be worth removing one of the most offending strings and really inspect them, also remove the agraffe for inspection. I wonder if the agraffe develops a wire edge that flops back and forth or maybe a V groove that the string binds in.
Another odd thing I've noticed is that as vexing as these pianos are to tune, they tend to stay in tune quite well.
It just occurs to me that this problem seems to be with grands only, which would point toward the understring felt.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 21:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Technically speaking, this is really an issue of normal aging within a specific design of instrument. Within the first 5-10 years of "life" this problem generally dies not occur (much). However as the thing ages, the INTENSE pressure on the counterbearing cloth produces a glazed and hardened surface to the wire and all microscopic imperfections in the wire produce a mirror image on this underfelt. It is the forced movement of this that produces the ticking. Proof of this is if one hears a very high frequency pitch in conjunction with the ticking sound. This is the vibration of the forward NSL between the cloth edge and the tuning pin.

Previous to CBL (which I have been assured contains nothing that will travel) I used to use Protek. It was OK but often required two or three applications to fix the problem. CBL RARELY needs more than one application. And in all the time I've been using it, I believe I can count only two pianos that had a few notes that absolutely did not respond to it.

Similar to what Norm was describing I sometimes like to rub the entire surface of counterbearing to spread the stuff all over and try to work it under the strings. I also squirt it all along the agraffe line for good measure. Typically I will get one tick on the very first release and then it's smooth sailing after that.

Been a game changer for me.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 10:23
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Benjamin,

You wrote:
"I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended."

Guess I missed that article. Who says that it is not recommended (allegedly with the endorsement of the PTJ editors)? Lubricating the string to felt/cloth contact has worked for you (and me) and several others on this list. What is the reasoning behind NOT taking this approach? And what, if anything, was offered as a viable alternative?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 09:58
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Not sure what brand the piano in question is, but I had a Young Chang with the same problem. Tuning was difficult at best, impossible at worst. 

It turned out to be extreme friction in the felt / cloth under the strings before the agraffes. At the recommendation of a friend, I applied McLube 444 along the part of the string that touches the felt. This was prior to reading in the journal that this is not recommended. However, it worked wonderfully and provided a waxy coat on that part of the string. The piano now tunes normally. It's been over a year since doing that, and I just saw the piano on Wednesday; no issues. My friend has been using it for about two decades now, in the same way, and hasn't reported any issues either. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2023 07:02
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Stecen,

Throughout the agraffes, worse in the bass than in the tenor.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 22:41
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan, is the problem strictly in the tri chords or does it show up in the bi or mono chords as well?

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 22:03
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Thanks, Norman. I'll give lanolin on the bearing cloth a try!

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 21:37
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan, I tend to agree with Joe. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, I presume that your problem is just friction (rust) between the strings and the bearing felt. I call it "zinging". A not-that-uncommon problem. And no, I would definitely not recommend Protek or CBL, in part because the ingredients are not on the label to certify that it might not travel and get into the tuning pins – plus apparently not as effective as the following.

In the small number of bothersome cases that I have had, where prevention is necessary or very desirable, I just use some pure anhydrous lanolin rubbed into the bearing cloth. Come back in 3 or 4 weeks and the problem will be mostly gone. Not a biggie. After 6 month the zinging is usually entirely gone. Maybe they remove too much of the lanolin in the manufacturing of the bearing cloth. I've mentioned this approach on this list previously – sorry to duplicate.

Regards, Norman

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Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:51
From: Wim Blees
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 5/26/2023 7:36:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Peter,

Well, manufacturer's service reps are only human (this far, anyway), so they, too, could be wrong.

I have applied CBL to the string along the counter bearing cloth, but have not yet tried combining that with dropping the pitch a semi-tone and picking it back up. That will be next on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Alan

P. S. I was thinking about you just a few hours ago while using some of your brass key bushing cauls!

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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 19:20
From: Peter Grey
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Alan,

With all due respect I think the manufacturers Service Dept is quite wrong.

Since you're familiar with CBL I'm hoping you applied it to the full width of the counter bearing cloth under the strings. If this did not solve it I would apply a second "coat" and drop the tension 1 semitone and pull it back up.

Now, if that proves fruitless I would re-orient the wires by dropping one string a 3rd or so and pulling its "hitch-mate" around the hitch pin (assuming of course this is not a Bosie or some other with all looped wires). This puts "fresh" wire into the agraffe. IF, in fact  it is actually an agraffe issue this may treat it for a while.

Otherwise I would  guess that there is something weird about the counterbearing cloth/felt.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-26-2023 17:51
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

How about applying a little diluted vinegar to the agraffe? It cleans up brass and won't affect steel. Let it sit for a few minutes and then apply something to wash it out and neutralize it afterwards.
-OR-
Since we already use Flitz to clean things like fallboard brass, how about applying a tiny bit, perhaps diluted with something so it can flow into the agraffe hole, to maybe clean up that string/brass contact point?

I've never tried this, it was just a wild thought, so please tell me I'm whacked if this is a stupid crazy idea. 

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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2023 21:51
From: Alan Eder
Subject: string-to-agraffe ticking sound when tuning

Greetings,

We have been struggling with a piano that makes a ticking sound caused by the steel wires rendering poorly through the agraffes (the manufacturer has confirmed this understanding of the issue). The problem first reared its ugly head some years into the life of this piano and continues to get worse. Neither Protek nor Counter Bearing Lube have helped in the slightest. Dealing with this annoyance slows down the tuning process so, not fun.

Any suggestions how to remedy this problem? I have experienced this on pianos by a variety of makers, but never as prominent and widespread as on the present piano.<o:p></o:p>

Thanks,

Alan

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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
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