Pianotech

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

I still don't understand what the problem are. An electric bass or electric guitar has vertical pins, and has no problem with upwards pressure on the coil. or glue joints.If you use agraffes the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath, this happen in both cases. I'll make a drawing to show what I mean.

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

There is 30,000 lbs of string tension in a piano. Wires are much thicker under far more tension. Wires have up pressure from hammers. The comparison is apples to oranges at best.

I still don't understand what the problem are. An electric bass or electric guitar has vertical pins, and has no problem with upwards pressure on the coil. or glue joints.If you use agraffes the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath, this happen in both cases. I'll make a drawing to show what I mean.

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

yep

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

 Purpose? evenly space and align the strings and ensure contact between the string and bridge. What am I missing?

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

 Purpose? evenly space and align the strings and ensure contact between the string and bridge. What am I missing?

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

So why are you saying that I don't understand their purpose??

 Purpose? evenly space and align the strings and ensure contact between the string and bridge. What am I missing?

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

So why are you saying that I don't understand their purpose??

 Purpose? evenly space and align the strings and ensure contact between the string and bridge. What am I missing?

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

But why exactly?

So why are you saying that I don't understand their purpose??

 Purpose? evenly space and align the strings and ensure contact between the string and bridge. What am I missing?

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

But why exactly?

So why are you saying that I don't understand their purpose??

 Purpose? evenly space and align the strings and ensure contact between the string and bridge. What am I missing?

But I would try to get rid of the two bridge pins, another point of friction. If there is a good contact between strings and bridge, I guess the bridge pins will become irrelevant.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 10:58
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I would think that adding an additional point of friction to the string would make tuning much more difficult. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:56
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

yep

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 23:16
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:06:00 PM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Good question, if you lower the hitch pin side a few mm down, then you can raise also the pinblock a few mm up, without changing strings angle..

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 22:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

This may be possible with a Screw Stringer a la M&H. Otherwise I don't see how you're going to get the action in.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 20:50
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Hugh,

My question would be: What significant improvement might be realized by this kind of modification, and would it be truly worth the effort of completely redesigning a line of pianos?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 17:00
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The oldsters among us (I'm 72) still believe in reading books for information. Get a copy of Samuel Wolfenden's "A Treatise on the Art of Piano Forte Construction." And more recently, Mario Igrec's "Piano Inside Out" may answer some of your questions. Del Fandrich revised a symposium of piano makers in the early 1900s (available through the PTG's book store I believe). I think Del is planning a publication on piano scale design in the near future. Fred Sturm's translation of Montal's book may be interesting to you as well. 

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:50
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I am trying to collect as much informations as possible, because maybe in the future I will build my own piano step by step. So maybe there is no advantage in this strings angle. Certainly I am curious about the answers I get here. The early pianos had no iron plate, of course I know that, but it just reinforces my theory that the strings tension is not a problem if you change the angle. I mean, the early pianos worked quite well despite not having any iron plate and agraffes.

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:43
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

I don't really like the angle of the tuning pin, it would sit more shallowly in the surface of the pinblock, the coil would be angled, so to clear the plate it would have to be either a much longer pin or set at a shallower depth. Besides these things, what would the advantage be? All that friction looks like it would be very difficult to tune.

In reply to post 8, both harpsichord and early pianos had no plate, and therefore much lower tension. I don't think you're giving adequate thought to the enormous tension in modern pianos.

Lastly, I'm all into improving the piano's design of a better alternative is found. I'm curious, are you trying to build a piano from scratch, or just curious about the design? 

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:32
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

There is also another possibility, all patent free. In this case the string goes down from the nut to the tuning pin, but between the bridge and the nut there is the agraffe pulling the string down. Here, exaggerating the angles:

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 12:12
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 11:58:00 AM
From: Hugh Trott
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

------------------------------
Hugh Trott
musician
No affiliations

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:18
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

The violin has horizontal tuning pegs. The piano has vertical tuning pins. If the tuning pins sat lower than the agraffe, there would be upward pressure on the coil. If you have not worked with piano wire, it is far more rigid than string instruments and would be a disaster as the wire would want to overlap on the coil. As with the observation I made in your post about upbearing, as the piano is designed to not put stress on glue joints, the tuning pin is also designed to have downward pressure which is more stable. Lastly, as Wim pointed out, the hammers put upward pressure on the strings. The string contacts the agraffe at the top of the hole, not the bottom. This stabilizes the string in multiple ways, first the string has nowhere to go when the hammer strikes from underneath. Second, this point of friction allows for slightly higher string tension on the non speaking length between the agraffe and tuning pin, which allows the instrument to hold its pitch after a hard blow and the speaking length increases tension.

------------------------------
Tim Foster RPT
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 08:15
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 7:49:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: RE: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

"This is your first mistaken assumption. The strings of a piano, between the agraff and the bridge, do rise up"

Hi Wim, I am talking only from agraffe to tunng pins. Not from bridge to agraffe. If the strings are bouncing inside the agraffe hole, I think it depends on the height of the agraffes. In todays piano, do the strings inside the agraffe have any bouncing problem? Do they come off the top of the agraffe in todays pianos? No, so if the tuning pins were lower than agraffes, why do you think the strings can come off the bottom of the agraffe?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 07:30
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 6:51:00 AM
From: Hey There
Subject: Strings angle: why pinblock is not lower than agraffes?

As you know in a piano the strings, from the agraffes to the pinblock, are not parallel to the floor, they don't go downwards, but they rise upwards (the opposite of violin or a guitar etc), so I wonder why not to try a pinblock lower than the agraffes, changing strings angle like in any other string instrument? Cristofori tried but he didn't use agraffes to stop the vertical blow from the hammers. So what would happen today with agraffe stopping that upwards hammer blow? I see only benefits: 1) No need to worry about lack of downbearing, bridge and strings will always have a good contact, and probably no bridge pins are needed. 2) No need to worry about capo bar. 3) No need to worry about coils number in the tuning pins. 4) No need to worry about the wedge falling from the horn when detuning. So, why has never been done?

------------------------------
Hey There
023428578
------------------------------

So why are you saying that I don't understand their purpose??

 Purpose? evenly space and align the strings and ensure contact between the string and bridge. What am I missing?