CAUT

  • 1.  Tokai grand damper issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-26-2022 17:30
    Hi everyone,

    I have a customer who recently acquired very small Tokai grand. Recently, she says the dampers get hung up, but only after she's been playing it for an hour or so. This sounds suspiciously like similar problems with Sammick/Young Chang. When I tuned it a couple of months ago, I didn't notice any problems.

    Anyone have any experience with Tokai? Is this a center pin issue with the damper flanges? Any suggestions as to what to look for when I go back?
    thanks!

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Tokai grand damper issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 07:29
    Years ago ( decades ago...) Baldwin grands had a similar issue, but it was most if not all of their grand production. Piano would be fine, pianist plays for awhile, dampers start hanging up. Walk away, problem is gone in a short while. It turned out the damper installer was dipping the damper wires in lacquer so they would be quiet. As the piano was played, the friction at the guide rail heated up wire, lacquer got sticky, dampers stuck. Walk away, wire cools down, problem goes away. Wires had to be replaced. It would be interesting to know if it is same notes that stick every time, and if problem goes away when piano sits for a bit.  If you go check the piano and find underlever friction high, you might want to replace pins in flanges as well as ream bushings, in case there is something on the center pins. It would be great if she could play the piano until you get there, to induce the problem, and then start checking damper underlever centers ( all of them.) Good luck!

    David Graham
    Graham Piano Service, Inc.
    512 S. Main St.
    Sycamore IL 60178
    815-353-5450






  • 3.  RE: Tokai grand damper issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 10:34
    One possibility you might consider is that the upstop rail is high and the sostenuto rod is a little too close the the underlevers. On strong blows, a damper can rise high enough that the tab will get caught on the body of the sostenuto rod. This will be sporadic, and vary with just how precisely each tab is aligned. 

    This is something that has come up for me a few times over the years, a similar sort of description by the customer. 

    I don't know about Tokay specifically, but on a particular Samick I serviced regularly, there was friction that would develop in the centers of the damper levers, usually of the top flange, that would freeze up just like hammer and wippen centers. A real pain to address, since the sostenuto rod must be got out of the way to remove an underlever. Just applying Protek CLP was only ever a temporary fix, had to remove the pin and ream the felt for a permanent fix.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." Twain






  • 4.  RE: Tokai grand damper issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-28-2022 06:07
    Dear Scott,

    This response does not address Tokai pianos.  Rather, it is directed to David Graham's reference: Heating any finish-coating such as lacquer in a felt bearing surface.  As David describes the symptom of the core issue comes and goes making it difficult to assess.

    The area I find the finish-coating pedal squeaking issue is on Kawai and Boston pedal lyres at the vertical pedal rod/felt bushing contact.  Other brands may have a coating in this area as well.  When this squeak happens it has been the sustain pedal.  The report of an intermittent 'squeaking pedal' is really the rod finish(Lacquer?) being heated through use and transferred to the bushing felt.  The resultant squeaking is intense as the two bearing surfaces both have a finish-coating rubbing against each other.  As the bearing surfaces cool the squeaking almost goes away.  Upon disassembly and careful removal of the bushing does one notice a color transfer from the rod coating to the felt bushing.  The permanent fix is a two step process

    1.   Replace the bushing felt, use a thick glue that will not permeate the felt, note the orientation of where the old felt edges met and duplicate the manufactures installation.

    2.   Remove the finish-coating from the rod with acetone and a rag, for appearances, mask off and only do this in the bearing surface area of the rod: about 3 inches.  I feel better applying McLube 444 to the rod but don't think it is necessary. 

    If you are wondering about this subject have a look at the new Steinway lyre rods.

    For a temporary fix such as before a performance, etc.:  Marfak grease or Lubriplate Multi-purpose grease.  Other products might work for an entire concert, these will. 

    Ed Whitting, RPT

    Professional Products & Services, Inc.

    24392 Peacock Street, Lake Forest, California 92630

    Cell 714-501-4717, Office 949-830-6847, FAX 949-830-1392







  • 5.  RE: Tokai grand damper issues

    Posted 11-03-2022 23:18
    Hi, Ed,

    Another great post. Thank you very much.

    Hope that all is very well with you and yours.

    Horace

    On 10/28/2022 3:06 AM, Ed Whitting via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Dear Scott,
    >
    > This response does not address Tokai pianos. Rather, it is directed to David Graham's reference: Heating any finish-coating such as lacquer in a felt bearing surface. As David describes the symptom of the core issue comes and goes making it difficult to assess.
    > The area I find the finish-coating pedal squeaking issue is on Kawai and Boston pedal lyres at the vertical pedal rod/felt bushing contact. Other brands may have a coating in this area as well. When this squeak happens it has been the sustain pedal. The report of an intermittent 'squeaking pedal' is really the rod finish(Lacquer?) being heated through use and transferred to the bushing felt. The resultant squeaking is intense as the two bearing surfaces both have a finish-coating rubbing against each other. As the bearing surfaces cool the squeaking almost goes away. Upon disassembly and careful removal of the bushing does one notice a color transfer from the rod coating to the felt bushing. The permanent fix is a two step process
    > 1. Replace the bushing felt, use a thick glue that will not permeate the felt, note the orientation of where the old felt edges met and duplicate the manufactures installation.
    >
    > 2. Remove the finish-coating from the rod with acetone and a rag, for appearances, mask off and only do this in the bearing surface area of the rod: about 3 inches. I feel better applying McLube 444 to the rod but don't think it is necessary.
    >
    > If you are wondering about this subject have a look at the new Steinway lyre rods.
    >
    > For a temporary fix such as before a performance, etc.: Marfak grease or Lubriplate Multi-purpose grease. Other products might work for an entire concert, these will.
    >
    > Ed Whitting, RPT
    > Professional Products & Services, Inc.
    > 24392 Peacock Street, Lake Forest, California 92630
    > Cell 714-501-4717, Office 949-830-6847, FAX 949-830-1392
    >
    >
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 10/26/2022 5:30:00 PM
    > From: Scott Cole
    > Subject: Tokai grand damper issues
    >
    > Hi everyone,
    >
    > I have a customer who recently acquired very small Tokai grand. Recently, she says the dampers get hung up, but only after she's been playing it for an hour or so. This sounds suspiciously like similar problems with Sammick/Young Chang. When I tuned it a couple of months ago, I didn't notice any problems.
    >
    > Anyone have any experience with Tokai? Is this a center pin issue with the damper flanges? Any suggestions as to what to look for when I go back?
    > thanks!
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Scott Cole, RPT
    > rvpianotuner.com
    > Talent, OR
    > (541-601-9033
    > ------------------------------
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