Hi, Larry,
This came through perfectly.
Thank you very much.
Kind regards.
Horace
On 4/30/2024 3:42 PM, Larry Lobel via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> I'm attaching a .pptx (Powerpoint) file with the full slide show of my 2016 Tuning Pin Symposium. I hope this works.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Larry Lobel RPT
> San Francisco chapter
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-23-2024 19:10
> From: Jason Kanter
> Subject: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
>
>
> I found something in the 2016 Journals. In my full-year 2016 this material occurs after the December issue. Perhaps it was an add-on.
>
> It's an unusual layout. Here's the cover page:
>
>
>
> Here's the one page of about 20, the one most relevant to what you're discussing?
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> | || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
> Jason Kanter
> Lynnwood WA
> (425) 830-1561
> ------------------------------
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-23-2024 17:28
> From: Fred Sturm
> Subject: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
>
> Torque measured in the sharp direction (pulling the string sharp) will vary with the tension of the string, and the same will be true in the flat direction. When restringing, we can set a target torque for the pin without the string attached, but feel of the pin will vary as the tension scale varies.
> The most important measurement from the point of view of holding a tune is in the flat direction, so I would say you could set a minimum figure there (30 - 30 inch pounds?). As for both directions, I recall an article by (I think) a technical editor of the Journal (Jack Krefting? Steve Brady?) giving ranges of torque for tunability, but a search of the Journal index didn't find it.
> Regards,Fred
Sturmfssturm@comcast.net <
fssturm@comcast.net>www.artoftuning.comhttp://fredsturm.net"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." Twain
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 4/23/2024 5:05:00 PM
> From: Parker Leigh
> Subject: RE: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
>
>
> I have always considered down torque most important with a reading of 80 inch lb as a minimum.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Parker Leigh RPT
> Winchester VA
> (540) 722-3865
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-23-2024 12:02
> From: Dave Conte
> Subject: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
>
>
> Hello, all.
>
> Reading back through various posts over the years, I notice there seems to be a number of schools of thought about how tuning pin torque should be measured.
>
> Averaging clockwise/counterclockwise, with strings, with no strings, etc.
>
> Averaging seems logical, but doesn't seem to pan out in reality. Say there is a lot of rendering resistance pulling up (clockwise) but very little in the downward/push direction (counter-clockwise). For example, a grand piano in a practice room here reads 85in/# in the pull but less than 15in/# in the push direction. The pin doesn't hold over even a short time, but averaging them, math says this should be fine: 80+15 = 95/2 = 47.5. Minimal but should hold. Subtracting 80-15 = 65; should definitely hold. Removing the string eliminates resistance, but can't tell you what the factors of string rendering would be, and they are considerable.
>
> Has anyone come up with a better method of determining real torque; not just what it should theoretically be, but how to arrive at it in real life? Perhaps down torque as a percentage of pull torque or net torque. Maybe this has already been satisfied, but I can't find it anywhere, just a lot of discussion. I have historically made this determination by manual manipulation, but I want to be able to present and support my findings in a way that is quantifiable.
>
> Dave
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Dave Conte, RPT
>
> Piano Technician in Residence
> The University of Tennessee
> College of Music
> Knoxville TN
> (817) 307-5656
> Owner: Rocky Top Piano
> ------------------------------
>
>
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>
> To Download the attachment(s) click on the link below:
>
https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/ViewAttachment/?DocumentKey=99a51146-3f6a-4843-b3b6-018f312c0533> (if the link doesn't work, copy and paste it into your web browser)
> -------------------------------------------
>
>
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Original Message:
Sent: 4/30/2024 6:42:00 PM
From: Larry Lobel
Subject: RE: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
I'm attaching a .pptx (Powerpoint) file with the full slide show of my 2016 Tuning Pin Symposium (attachment below) If you double click on it, it will download onto your computer so you can open it.
------------------------------
Larry Lobel RPT
San Francisco chapter
------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 04-23-2024 19:10
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
I found something in the 2016 Journals. In my full-year 2016 this material occurs after the December issue. Perhaps it was an add-on.
It's an unusual layout. Here's the cover page:
Here's the one page of about 20, the one most relevant to what you're discussing?
------------------------------
| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
Jason Kanter
Lynnwood WA
(425) 830-1561
Original Message:
Sent: 04-23-2024 17:28
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
Torque measured in the sharp direction (pulling the string sharp) will vary with the tension of the string, and the same will be true in the flat direction. When restringing, we can set a target torque for the pin without the string attached, but feel of the pin will vary as the tension scale varies.
The most important measurement from the point of view of holding a tune is in the flat direction, so I would say you could set a minimum figure there (30 - 30 inch pounds?). As for both directions, I recall an article by (I think) a technical editor of the Journal (Jack Krefting? Steve Brady?) giving ranges of torque for tunability, but a search of the Journal index didn't find it.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
www.artoftuning.com
http://fredsturm.net
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." Twain
Original Message:
Sent: 4/23/2024 5:05:00 PM
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: RE: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
I have always considered down torque most important with a reading of 80 inch lb as a minimum.
------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865
Original Message:
Sent: 04-23-2024 12:02
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Tuning pin torque measurements revisited
Hello, all.
Reading back through various posts over the years, I notice there seems to be a number of schools of thought about how tuning pin torque should be measured.
Averaging clockwise/counterclockwise, with strings, with no strings, etc.
Averaging seems logical, but doesn't seem to pan out in reality. Say there is a lot of rendering resistance pulling up (clockwise) but very little in the downward/push direction (counter-clockwise). For example, a grand piano in a practice room here reads 85in/# in the pull but less than 15in/# in the push direction. The pin doesn't hold over even a short time, but averaging them, math says this should be fine: 80+15 = 95/2 = 47.5. Minimal but should hold. Subtracting 80-15 = 65; should definitely hold. Removing the string eliminates resistance, but can't tell you what the factors of string rendering would be, and they are considerable.
Has anyone come up with a better method of determining real torque; not just what it should theoretically be, but how to arrive at it in real life? Perhaps down torque as a percentage of pull torque or net torque. Maybe this has already been satisfied, but I can't find it anywhere, just a lot of discussion. I have historically made this determination by manual manipulation, but I want to be able to present and support my findings in a way that is quantifiable.
Dave
------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT
Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano
------------------------------
</fssturm@comcast.net>