Pianotech

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

The fork has inharmonicity. Try it with an electronic source and see if you get the same result. 😉

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

The fork has inharmonicity. Try it with an electronic source and see if you get the same result. 😉

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Thanks for the reply!

I did make sure my fork was properly calibrated to a440.0 when I measured the second partial off the tuning fork I basically got 880. So if there is any inharmonicity in the tuning fork it's negligible. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 15:31
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

The fork has inharmonicity. Try it with an electronic source and see if you get the same result. 😉

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Ryan, in case you do not have Bill Bremmer's paper from 2020, I'll attach it. He addresses the problem that people often get into of A4 being 1 cent flat when they use F2 – A4 (5:1), due to subconsciously concentrating on the 10:2 coincident partials rather than the intended 5:1 partials. In your case of trying to use F3 – A4 (5:2), I was hoping that you might be subconsciously hearing the 10:4 coincident partials, but Bill explains that the fork only produces the first and second partials. You are not sounding the fork on the piano's case, correct? - (which might produce a fourth partial.)

Or an alternative and better explanation could be that, since you are listening at the same A5 for (coincident partial) beats when tuning F3-A4 that Bill Bremmer is explaining for the F2-A4 tuner (in the 10:2 case), both cases resulting in 1 cent flat for A4 might be expected since both results are based on the inharmonicity between A4 and A5. Regards, Norman. 

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 15:59
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks for the reply!

I did make sure my fork was properly calibrated to a440.0 when I measured the second partial off the tuning fork I basically got 880. So if there is any inharmonicity in the tuning fork it's negligible. 

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 15:31
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

The fork has inharmonicity. Try it with an electronic source and see if you get the same result. 😉

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

A better method per Bremmer is to use B1.  I also tuned to my Walker fork and scored 100 %

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

When I tool my exam I used a Hale Electro-Fork set to F3. Got within 1 cent of A440hz. Doc Sanderson was quite surprised. 

IOW I set F3 from the fork and A4 came out right on the money. (Or possibly I set A3 from the F3 fork...don't totally remember 45 years later). But anyway you get the picture.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 18:16
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

A better method per Bremmer is to use B1.  I also tuned to my Walker fork and scored 100 %

------------------------------
Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Hamburg Steinways, Bechsteins, and most German Pianos at the factory: 442 or 443

Kawai at the factory: 442; most of Japan for that matter

All Central European Orchestras are either 442 or 443,

and most major US orchestras are now at 442 including: NY Phil, Chicago, Boston, LA Phil, Houston Sym

At LA Phil auditions, they sometimes make the instrumentalists  tune to 442 before they walk onto the stage.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 15:50
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Mr. Norsworthy --

Both Kawai and Yamaha ship at 442 for the purpose of stretching the strings and giving them time to settle in during shipping. Both are scaled to 440. I would guess that other manufactures follow a similar principal. 

Bösendorfer, on the other hand, have forever scaled their pianos to be tuned to 443, and they really do sound weak when tuned to 440. It's the only piano, that I am aware of, that is deliberately scaled for anything other than 440.

In 1859 the French government passed a law setting A4 to 435Hz. 435 Hz was also the frequency set in the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. In 1936, the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 as Recommendation R 16, before being formalized in 1975 as ISO 16.

The choice to tune to other than standard or scaled design is purely owners choice and varies widely all over the world. Nevertheless, most pianos sound best when tuned to the frequency for which they were scaled. 

Regardless of standards, yes, many organizations choose to tune to frequencies varying anywhere from 415 to 466. Pity the poor woodwind and brass players that have to modify their instruments in order to accommodate those extremes. 

That said, the note that a tuner uses to set A4 aurally, to whatever frequency, is still probably F2.

Hamburg Steinways, Bechsteins, and most German Pianos at the factory: 442 or 443

Kawai at the factory: 442; most of Japan for that matter

All Central European Orchestras are either 442 or 443,

and most major US orchestras are now at 442 including: NY Phil, Chicago, Boston, LA Phil, Houston Sym

At LA Phil auditions, they sometimes make the instrumentalists  tune to 442 before they walk onto the stage.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 15:50
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Steven, greetings. Take a look at Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440_(pitch_standard) It sounds like you should offer to update their section on standard pitch. Regards, Norman.

Mr. Norsworthy --

Both Kawai and Yamaha ship at 442 for the purpose of stretching the strings and giving them time to settle in during shipping. Both are scaled to 440. I would guess that other manufactures follow a similar principal. 

Bösendorfer, on the other hand, have forever scaled their pianos to be tuned to 443, and they really do sound weak when tuned to 440. It's the only piano, that I am aware of, that is deliberately scaled for anything other than 440.

In 1859 the French government passed a law setting A4 to 435Hz. 435 Hz was also the frequency set in the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. In 1936, the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 as Recommendation R 16, before being formalized in 1975 as ISO 16.

The choice to tune to other than standard or scaled design is purely owners choice and varies widely all over the world. Nevertheless, most pianos sound best when tuned to the frequency for which they were scaled. 

Regardless of standards, yes, many organizations choose to tune to frequencies varying anywhere from 415 to 466. Pity the poor woodwind and brass players that have to modify their instruments in order to accommodate those extremes. 

That said, the note that a tuner uses to set A4 aurally, to whatever frequency, is still probably F2.

Hamburg Steinways, Bechsteins, and most German Pianos at the factory: 442 or 443

Kawai at the factory: 442; most of Japan for that matter

All Central European Orchestras are either 442 or 443,

and most major US orchestras are now at 442 including: NY Phil, Chicago, Boston, LA Phil, Houston Sym

At LA Phil auditions, they sometimes make the instrumentalists  tune to 442 before they walk onto the stage.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 15:50
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Norman,

American tuners are in disconnect with Europe and Japan, and in disconnect with major orchestras.

Wikipedia also disconnected and should be corrected.

Most of the great pianists on the international stage are Steinway artists and most of them from Europe and most play Hamburg Steinways. Hamburg has been at 442 'for decades'. Perhaps some of the American artists playing NY Steinways are still on 440, but if they are playing on stage with NY, Boston, LA, Chicago, you can bet the piano is at 442.

Steve

Steven, greetings. Take a look at Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440_(pitch_standard) It sounds like you should offer to update their section on standard pitch. Regards, Norman.

Mr. Norsworthy --

Both Kawai and Yamaha ship at 442 for the purpose of stretching the strings and giving them time to settle in during shipping. Both are scaled to 440. I would guess that other manufactures follow a similar principal. 

Bösendorfer, on the other hand, have forever scaled their pianos to be tuned to 443, and they really do sound weak when tuned to 440. It's the only piano, that I am aware of, that is deliberately scaled for anything other than 440.

In 1859 the French government passed a law setting A4 to 435Hz. 435 Hz was also the frequency set in the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. In 1936, the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 as Recommendation R 16, before being formalized in 1975 as ISO 16.

The choice to tune to other than standard or scaled design is purely owners choice and varies widely all over the world. Nevertheless, most pianos sound best when tuned to the frequency for which they were scaled. 

Regardless of standards, yes, many organizations choose to tune to frequencies varying anywhere from 415 to 466. Pity the poor woodwind and brass players that have to modify their instruments in order to accommodate those extremes. 

That said, the note that a tuner uses to set A4 aurally, to whatever frequency, is still probably F2.

Hamburg Steinways, Bechsteins, and most German Pianos at the factory: 442 or 443

Kawai at the factory: 442; most of Japan for that matter

All Central European Orchestras are either 442 or 443,

and most major US orchestras are now at 442 including: NY Phil, Chicago, Boston, LA Phil, Houston Sym

At LA Phil auditions, they sometimes make the instrumentalists  tune to 442 before they walk onto the stage.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 15:50
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Mr. Norsworthy --

Both Kawai and Yamaha ship at 442 for the purpose of stretching the strings and giving them time to settle in during shipping. Both are scaled to 440. I would guess that other manufactures follow a similar principal. 

Bösendorfer, on the other hand, have forever scaled their pianos to be tuned to 443, and they really do sound weak when tuned to 440. It's the only piano, that I am aware of, that is deliberately scaled for anything other than 440.

In 1859 the French government passed a law setting A4 to 435Hz. 435 Hz was also the frequency set in the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. In 1936, the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 as Recommendation R 16, before being formalized in 1975 as ISO 16.

The choice to tune to other than standard or scaled design is purely owners choice and varies widely all over the world. Nevertheless, most pianos sound best when tuned to the frequency for which they were scaled. 

Regardless of standards, yes, many organizations choose to tune to frequencies varying anywhere from 415 to 466. Pity the poor woodwind and brass players that have to modify their instruments in order to accommodate those extremes. 

That said, the note that a tuner uses to set A4 aurally, to whatever frequency, is still probably F2.

Hamburg Steinways, Bechsteins, and most German Pianos at the factory: 442 or 443

Kawai at the factory: 442; most of Japan for that matter

All Central European Orchestras are either 442 or 443,

and most major US orchestras are now at 442 including: NY Phil, Chicago, Boston, LA Phil, Houston Sym

At LA Phil auditions, they sometimes make the instrumentalists  tune to 442 before they walk onto the stage.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 15:50
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Mr. Norsworthy --

Both Kawai and Yamaha ship at 442 for the purpose of stretching the strings and giving them time to settle in during shipping. Both are scaled to 440. I would guess that other manufactures follow a similar principal. 

Bösendorfer, on the other hand, have forever scaled their pianos to be tuned to 443, and they really do sound weak when tuned to 440. It's the only piano, that I am aware of, that is deliberately scaled for anything other than 440.

In 1859 the French government passed a law setting A4 to 435Hz. 435 Hz was also the frequency set in the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. In 1936, the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 as Recommendation R 16, before being formalized in 1975 as ISO 16.

The choice to tune to other than standard or scaled design is purely owners choice and varies widely all over the world. Nevertheless, most pianos sound best when tuned to the frequency for which they were scaled. 

Regardless of standards, yes, many organizations choose to tune to frequencies varying anywhere from 415 to 466. Pity the poor woodwind and brass players that have to modify their instruments in order to accommodate those extremes. 

That said, the note that a tuner uses to set A4 aurally, to whatever frequency, is still probably F2.

Hamburg Steinways, Bechsteins, and most German Pianos at the factory: 442 or 443

Kawai at the factory: 442; most of Japan for that matter

All Central European Orchestras are either 442 or 443,

and most major US orchestras are now at 442 including: NY Phil, Chicago, Boston, LA Phil, Houston Sym

At LA Phil auditions, they sometimes make the instrumentalists  tune to 442 before they walk onto the stage.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 15:50
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Fellow tuning nerds,

The title should have read test NOTE not test NOT. Oh well. 

Sometimes people will use F3 to transfer A4 from the tuning fork to the piano, instead of the traditional F2. While F2 beats with the fundamental of A4, F3 will beat with the 2nd partial of A4. I was taught that using F3 will result in a flat A. 

When my piano is tuned to A440 the second partial of A4 measures 881.25 hz which is about 2.6 cents sharp. My hypothesis is that if I match the beats from the F3 - Afork to the F3 - A on the piano I would end up with A4 being 2.6 cents flat. This is because the fork, having virtually no inharmonicity, produces a second partial of 880. I should have to lower A4's second partial by 2.6 cents to make the beats match. 

However...in real practice when I used beat matching to use F3 to set pitch, my A only came out about 1 cent flat, much less than I anticipated. I did this a few times, with basically the same result. 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around why it's only a cent flat when I match the beats by ear? I'm thinking it must have to do with how hz and beats change with each octave. I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results. 

This was using a calibrated Johnny Walker blued tuning fork and Tunelab for measuring. 

Am I thinking about this correctly?

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648
------------------------------

Regardless of the predilections in Berlin, Boston, etc.; from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which lists A 440 as the "internationally recognized standard for musical pitch", as does the ISO, to the default settings for electronic tuning devices (for pianos or otherwise) and the default settings for electronic keyboards and music software, is A4=440Hz.

Personally, I have had a few Japanese musicians request 441 or 442, also an Argentinian Bandoneon ensemble accompanying a Tango performance required 442 fwiw. (Bandoneons hail from Germany but are only played in Argentina and Uruguay)

The major orchestras may set the standard for other orchestras-or not because even they vary by as much as 18 cents- but the rest of the music world didn't get the memo. Btw, the piano is tuned to conform to the orchestra's preference, not the other way around.

There's an entertaining and probably mostly accurate history of tuning standards in the West here. A little something for everyone.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 18:20
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

The major orchestras set the de facto standards for the world. In Germany, mostly 443. Japan follows Germany. After WW-2, major European conductors set the NY Phil and BSO to 442. I am a brass professional orchestral trombonist from my early years. I stay in touch with my friends in major orchestras. Again, LA, Chicago, NY, Boston, Houston, all 442. Hamburg Steinways are 'of course' the world standard for major piano artists. They are all at either 442 or 443.

Steve N.


Original Message:
Sent: 5/4/2024 6:10:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Mr. Norsworthy --

Both Kawai and Yamaha ship at 442 for the purpose of stretching the strings and giving them time to settle in during shipping. Both are scaled to 440. I would guess that other manufactures follow a similar principal. 

Bösendorfer, on the other hand, have forever scaled their pianos to be tuned to 443, and they really do sound weak when tuned to 440. It's the only piano, that I am aware of, that is deliberately scaled for anything other than 440.

In 1859 the French government passed a law setting A4 to 435Hz. 435 Hz was also the frequency set in the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. In 1936, the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 as Recommendation R 16, before being formalized in 1975 as ISO 16.

The choice to tune to other than standard or scaled design is purely owners choice and varies widely all over the world. Nevertheless, most pianos sound best when tuned to the frequency for which they were scaled. 

Regardless of standards, yes, many organizations choose to tune to frequencies varying anywhere from 415 to 466. Pity the poor woodwind and brass players that have to modify their instruments in order to accommodate those extremes. 

That said, the note that a tuner uses to set A4 aurally, to whatever frequency, is still probably F2.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 17:08
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hamburg Steinways, Bechsteins, and most German Pianos at the factory: 442 or 443

Kawai at the factory: 442; most of Japan for that matter

All Central European Orchestras are either 442 or 443,

and most major US orchestras are now at 442 including: NY Phil, Chicago, Boston, LA Phil, Houston Sym

At LA Phil auditions, they sometimes make the instrumentalists  tune to 442 before they walk onto the stage.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-04-2024 15:50
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

There really is no de facto standard. Whatever standard organizations are using doesn't matter outside their walls. Unless you're suggesting that one should tell the organization you're tuning for that they're wrong and need to change their tuning standard.

Besides, there have been wide discrepancies in what people are saying various orchestras/organizations are tuning to and what they're actually tuning to. People were reporting that the Boston Symphony Orchestra was tuning to A444 when I know for a fact (because I was tuning for them at Tanglewood) that they were using A441. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 14:53
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi Norm.

You are probably aware that the de facto International Standard is now 442. All the major orchestras are on 442. All the European piano makers are tuning at 442.

Kind regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-02-2024 07:31
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 8:28:00 PM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Speaking of tuning forks: I consider the gold standard of tuning forks the John Walker nickel-plated A440. Weighs 4 ounces, twice that of their blued forks, and it sounds loud and long! It's still sold at Vanda King's. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 07:41
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I have practiced PF (Pitch Floating) for decades. I can count on one hand the number of clients (and even concert venues) that require a specific pitch level for the tuning session. I have not used a "fork" in at least twenty years, since the electronics available are far more convenient. 

That said, I remember a short period when I was using a Sanderson Accu-Fork (still in my drawer with the Electro-Fork) and it had unknowingly gone berserk due to a low battery (at the time I didn't realize that could/would happen).  It went wildly sharp and I started pitch raising the piano. But something was nagging at me that it didn't seem right. I now forget precisely how I figured out what was going on, restarted the tuning using my fork, called the "Doc" to discuss it and he said: "Yeah, that'll happen..."  We laughed and that was when I decided to put it in the drawer. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 02:33
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yet there seems to be another issue: piano tuners may not have researched the scientific articles on the characteristics of tuning forks.  Research shows that the tuning fork is virtually free of any overtones until we get to the ratio 25/4 above the fundamental. Look up the article on Wikipedia. That overtone is not falling on anything near a ratio we may want, and that overtone is at least 40 dB (100x) lower in magnitude than the fundamental. So much for IH! There is also a research article you can find that has a mechanical / acoustic model done in Matlab which correlates to all measurements, so I assume that the researchers have beat this subject to death over the years. 

The conclusion I have from all of this is to use high tech like I posted regarding what a sophisticated app like Pianoscope which can generate the tones we want at the frequencies we want with the overtones and IH that we want. This can be the general solution to the problem.

Best regards,

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2024 00:20
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Hi, Steven,

Ah...yet another member of the Memory of Elephants in our tiny space in the universe.

Be careful what you ask for...folks have been hammering this to death for some time.

Kind regards.

Horace



  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2024 12:12:00 AM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Ryan said: "Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents (etc.)"

Ryan, I do the same and other tuners have made the same "confessions" to me over the past few years. Traditionally, for straight aural tuners, the tuning fork was our pole star. And still, at a point where even if you are tuning aurally, there are electronic means to quickly measure the full spectrum of an instrument to a) see how close the the piano is in tune with itself, and b) find the relative frequency range of the tuning. You say "a couple of cents" but then expand it to possibly another couple of cents -up. Which I agree with. 

I think it's worthy of a thread to bring the practice out in the open. "A-440" at this point is something of a talisman for us that has prohibited us from talking about the flexibility that we can exercise intelligently with our current tools that can help us create more durable tunings. Another factor to consider is ambient room temperature in where to center A4. One thought I had at the beginning of this discussion was to wonder how many people check their A4 at the end of the tuning. Air temp of +/- 2 degrees can change the tuning enough to show up on an F2-A4 test. It's worth thinking about the conditions the piano will be used if it is in a church or performance venue for example.

I think it's time to come out of the closet regarding floating the 'A' I'd like to hear about other's practices or guidelines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 19:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

I rarely tune aurally any more, so setting A4 to 440 is rarely something I think about since I use an EDT. (For the record, I passed my tuning exam, years ago, aurally using an A4 fork and without the aid of an EDT.) In any case, because of this thread I went back and looked at my notes about setting the temperament aurally. I like Kent Swafford's sequence. And sure enough, he says to use F2 for the comparison note when setting A4. Not F2. Thanks for the correction. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 11:32
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Yes Maggie! You got what I was trying to get across. One of the confusing aspects of discussing tuning is the discrepancy between Beats/hz and cents. It's important for us to remember that cents double with each octave up. Thus one beat(hz) is about 4 cents at A4, but one beat is 2 cents at A5 and at A6 beats and cents are about equal. 

The discussion that evolved from my original post, shows that there is still confusion around this topic even among seasoned tuners! That's mainly why I brought it up. This came up at a meeting where we discussed transferring A from the fork to the piano. People are tempted to use F3 as the test note because it can also be played one handed with A4 (if you can reach a 10th! I barely can). 

Norman also did a good job describing the discrepancy that happens when using F3 instead of the proper F2. If we had a tuning fork that had the exact inharmonicity of the A4 on the piano, then there wouldn't be the discrepancy. 

I don't know if people were making typos, but I was very surprised to see others mention using F3! For instance, Wim said:

I completely agree with what you are saying regards the difference between counting beats and comparing beats. Well said. But don't you mean F2? Are folks really using F3 or do they mean F2 and are just getting their octave numbers mixed up? 

Thanks, Parker, for mentioning B1. When you mentioned it, it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried it in a long time. It's good to have more than one test available, as one might give a clearer signal then the other. 

Honestly, I almost always use an App when setting pitch, even though I prefer tuning the majority of the piano aurally. However, after this discussion, I'm going to use my fork the rest of the week for the practice. Full confession: I almost always float the pitch if the shape of the tuning is overall good if the pitch is within a couple of cents. I particularly don't mind if the piano is at 441 in most situations. 

Peter Gray mentioned the Electro Fork. Using a standalone electronic tone generator is probably the most sure-fire way to get a good pitch score on the exam. Examinees can get very flustered over their forks, and whether they are properly calibrated or at the right temperature. One examinee brought her fork into the exam room in a glass of ice water because she thought that was the most reliable way to reproduce a specific temp! 

Reading a previous thread, someone had recommended Rick Butler's YouTube video about setting pitch using a Korg tone generator and the beat that occurs in the 3rd partial that you can use to your advantage. It's excellent! https://youtu.be/TTG3KyPmyog?si=OP28WpAAS_8ROGBu

IMPORTANT: when we are helping people study for the RPT tuning exam we need to make sure we get this right: F3 is not the correct test note!

------------------------------
Ryan Sowers RPT
Olympia WA
(360) 480-5648

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 08:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Thanks, Norman, for sharing all that. I wasn't thinking & you helped me remember & re-understand things. 

I think Ryan wants to know why there is a discrepancy between his machine and his ear regarding the second partials of A4 (fork & piano) and the fourth of F3.

He wrote: "I'm thinking it must be because the second partial being 2.6 cents flat means the fundamental will be closer to 1.3 cents flat, which was pretty close to my results."

That sounds right to me. Ryan: How about you measure other partials involved? I bet that will give you more, useful information. I think you're right, but I am obviously being a bit slow on this one. 😉

(I shouldn't post when I'm tired; I'll say things wrong so please correct me when I do that.) 

Interesting topic! Thanks, Ryan! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2024 07:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

Geoff and Wim, I am 100% with you on setting A4 from F3, using an equal beat rate for the F3 note to the A4 fork versus F3 note to the A4 note. (In my case my temperament octave is C#3 to C#4, but for all intents and purposes we are the same.) Unfortunately, it sounds like all 3 of us are wrong! Sorry. We are using/tuning a tenth, which is a 5:2 interval, so the coincident partial we are listening to is at A5, not at A4. If there is any inharmonicity between A4 and A5, which there will be, that will push A4 slightly flat. That is because the second partial of the tuning fork supposedly has no inharmonicity relative to A4. Sometimes I use the F2 to A4 interval rather than F3 to A4, based on the piano and what I hear, which is a 5:1 musical interval -- and that is subject to possibly subconsciously listening to the 10:2 interval (with coincident partials at A5) that Bill Bremmer talks about. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 23:42
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano

For me, I use my A4 fork to tune A4 as close as I can. I then compare the fork to F3 to see what kind of beat I get. Next, I compare F3 to A4 and start fine tuning A4 until the beat comparisons between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 are the same. Doesn't make any difference where F3 happens to be as you are only concerned with the comparison beats being the same. In fact, it's OK to detune F3 in order to get a beat that is easier for you to hear when doing the comparisons. The important thing is to wind up with the beat rate between F3 and the fork and F3 and A4 being identical. When both comparisons are the same, A4 and your A4 fork will match without any movement. 

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2024 11:55
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Using F3 as a test not for transferring pitch to piano