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Vallotti temperament

  • 1.  Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2023 05:33

    Dear List

    Could someone provide me with the Vallotti temperament offsets ASAP.  Thanks in advance.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     



  • 2.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2023 09:11

    Rounded numbers:

    C: 6 

    C#: 0

    D: 2

    Eb: 4

    E: -2

    F: 8

    F#: -2

    G: 4

    Ab: 2

    A: 0

    Bb: 6

    B: -4


    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@comcast.net
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. " Blaise Pascal








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  • 3.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-21-2023 20:41

    Dear List

    Thanks to all that were Johnny on the spot in providing me with this temperament information.

    What a great resource we have!

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     




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  • 4.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Posted 04-22-2023 09:21
    Tom-

    If you use Cybertuner there are more accurate numbers for Vallotti in the Jorgenson library.  I would probably recommend considering the Vallotti/Young as a bit milder, depending on the instrument, but there is no way you will get anything close to the original temperament using numbers rounded off to the nearest whole cent.  That will not work and is one reason for so much confusion regarding the data gathered from Ellis' recordings of Broadwood tuners.  I copied those numbers out to the nearest hundredth below.  Hope that helps.  

    Best,
    Dennis Johnson

    A.     0.0
    A#.   5.87
    B.    -3.91
    C.     5.87
    C#.   0.0
    D.     1.96
    D#.   3.91
    E.    -1.96
    F.      7.82
    F#.  -1.96
    G.     3.91
    G#.   1.96
    A.      0.0





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  • 5.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 09:26

    Thanks for that. I've been hired for a major concert today and the ensemble is requesting the Vallotti temperament at A415, so I'm just following their instructions.  And no, I don't use a Cybertuner.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     




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  • 6.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 11:29
    I'm really out of touch with tuning unequal temperaments these days (i'm retired, you know). It's nice to have the ETD numbers as a starting point, but what does the tuning sound like, when you're done? Does your work actually end up with a Vallotti temperament? It seems that just providing ETD numbers doesn't go far enough. The aural version is what counts in the final analysis.

    If I'm reading Rollingball correctly the Major thirds beat speeds are as follows;
    C3/E3 = 2.2 beats per second
    C#3/F3=8.7
    D3/F#3=4.2
    Eflat3/G3=6.2
    E3/G#3=8.4
    F3/A3=3.0
    F#/A#=11.5
    G3/B3 = 3.3
    Aflat3/C4=10.6
    A3/C#4=8.7
    Bflat3/D4=6.6
    B3/D#4=11.5
    C4/E4=4.5

    Fifths:
    There should be 6 pure fifths: B3/F#4, F#3/C#4, C#3/G#3, Aflat3/Eflat4, Eflat3/Bflat3, Bflat3/F4 

    I used to tune unequal temperaments aurally fairly regularly, but I've forgotten the steps I came up with to get the job done. I used Vallotti often, until I talked to a string player who said that Vallotti doesn't fit string players very well. Piano players like Vallotti, but string players don't. There used to be a web site called "Anything but Vallotti."

    I've never been an expert on unequal temperaments, but there's my two cents worth. 

    Richard West







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  • 7.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 11:42

    Richard, et al.

     

    I always used that huge red book from the UNL shop with every temperament there is for one of our piano profs with a Walter Copy forte piano.  It was just printed out like music and used it often.  Even Malcomb Bilson loved my tunings, so I just used that.

    Of course, the hard copy book is hundreds of dollars. Nobody at Uof SC has ever asked me for any historical temperaments and barely ever use our harpsichords!  We have a nice Walter Copy forte that we tried to gain interest in, but nobody ever used is after I got it up to speed. It's back in the library with several historical keyboard instruments.  ☹

     

    Paul

     




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  • 8.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 13:31
    Paul,

    That red book, Tuning, was the tuning Bible and may still be. It wasn't a book you read from cover to cover at nearly 800 pages. I didn't think the book was all that well written, but it had a lot of good stuff. There are copies for sale on Amazon-around $130 

    Some of Jorgensen's shorter publications were more readable and practical. But, Jorgensen's publications helped me put together a tuning sequence to get through historic temperaments aurally. I might find it if I felt inclined to dig through boxes. Not today. 

    Procrastination: the prerogative of the retired.

    Richard



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  • 9.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Posted 04-22-2023 12:35
    Hi Richard-

    Exactly...... and I could not agree with you more. If you don't understand what the end result is supposed to sound like then there is maybe a 50% chance the numbers alone will yield a result that was intended.  It's no different than following numbers for ET without any aural checks to back it up.  If you don't have software to calculate inharmonicity deviations from the offsets, then that be the equivalent of tuning ET at 0.0 for each note.   For some reason there seems to be a double standard in this regard, which isn't right and has bothered me for years. 

    As long as it's understood these numbers are an approximation and not the final proof that helps, but we know how that usually goes.  I suggest that tuners interested in unequal tuning get a short library of favorites they are familiar with and throughly understand them with aural checks.  I have my own, but that's a different subject.  

    Best,
    Dennis Johnson 



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  • 10.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 13:40

    Peterson HDC includes a Valotti temperament in the historical tunings section.  You can also create and modify your own custom tunings and upload to the website.



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    Parker Leigh
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
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  • 11.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Posted 04-22-2023 16:32

    Tom-
    Tuning Vallotti at A415 indicates you are tuning a harpsichord.
    Inharmonicity will not be an issue. Use the simple offsets and be happy.
    Play around the circle of fifths from C around and back to C.
    You will hear the pattern of thirds widening and narrowing.
    That's it.



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 12.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 21:10
    Well,I thoroughly understand the Vallotti temperament. I had to do 3 tunings throughout the day for this high level performance on a wonderful harpsichord . What a lovely way to spend the day. Now I have a new temperament to add to my bag of tricks. 


    Tom Servinsky
    Registered Piano Technician
    Concert Artist Piano Technician
    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra
    Assist. Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony
    Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra
    772 221 1011 office
    772 260 7110 cell



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  • 13.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-23-2023 20:27

    While I appreciate Dennis Johnson's attention to detail, I have to disagree with his statement "there is no way you will get anything close to the original temperament using numbers rounded off to the nearest whole cent." The differences a between the rounded numbers and those taken to two decimal points are in the range of 0.04¢ to 0.2¢. Next to nobody tunes to that degree of accuracy, and I would argue that absolutely nobody would be able to hear the difference. And the "original temperament" was, like ET, an aspiration accomplished by real, fallible humans using human methods.

    Vallotti's temperament was set out originally as two sets of six 5ths each. One set, the rising fifths between F and B (FC, CG, GD, DA, AE, EB) were to be tuned narrow by 1/6 comma. The other set, those that include a sharp or flat, were all to be tuned just.

    The M3s resulting from (contained within) the first set of fifths are FA, CE, and GB, all of which are as half as wide as ET M3s. Those resulting from the second set are BD#, F#A#, and C#F, and they are what is commonly called "Pythagorean 5ths," 1.5 times as wide as ET M3s. The remaining M3s consist of pairs between those two sizes, symmetrically arranged within the circle of 5ths. The sound is quite distinctive: play chromatic M3s or chords, and you instantly recognize the big difference between C and C#, F and F#, G and G#. The other differences are a good bit milder.

    If you get into the weeds and go back to what Vallotti wrote, originally comma he was referring to was the "syntonic" one, the difference between and just M3 and a Pythagorean one, approximately 21.5¢. When Vallotti shared his pattern with a colleague, the colleague pointed out that the numbers didn't add up. He needed to be using the Pythagorean comma, which is about 23.5¢. Vallotti's response was to make one of the just fifths (I forget which one) narrow by about 2¢. (They related all this mathematical discussion in fractions/proportions, where the syntonic comma is 81/80).

    All modern methods that I have heard about use 1/16 Pythagorean comma for the narrowed 5ths. 1/6 syntonic 5ths are 3.6¢ narrow, while 1/6 Pythagorean 5ths are 3.9¢ narrow.  

    Historically, tuning was done in a circle of 5ths. 1/6 syntonic comma meantone was a common tuning in Vallotti's Italy, so the sound of 5ths about that narrow would be commonly recognized, as would the sound of just 5ths. As to how precisely musicians tuned their 1/6 comma 5ths, one can only speculate since they had nothing concrete to use to test that precise degree of narrowing. One thing is crystal clear: they didn't use tables of beat rates. Although they had the math to calculate such things, pitch varied too much to make that calculation worthwhile. In particular, there were two standard pitches in most parts of Europe: "chorton" and "Kammerton," a major second apart. You needed to adapt to the pitch of the instruments you were playing with.

    Just a wee bit of historical background for those who might be interested. 



    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------

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  • 14.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Posted 04-24-2023 15:04
    Hi Fred- 

    There are good reasons why we record readings to the nearest hundredth cent, and I'm surprised if you would try to suggest that's not important. Granted, it can be something close, I'll give you that, but differences depend on the specific example.  In this particular case I calculated out most of the intervals and when rounded off the larger Pythagorean Thirds become slightly larger, 21.69c as opposed to 21.5c.  Agreed, that sounds small but these thirds are already pushing the boundary of what works to our aesthetic. The fifth Bb-F actually becomes just a hair wide.  Not enough to produce noticeable beats, but we pride ourselves on accuracy.  I'm not going to dive into other history or examples at this point, but for what it's worth I hardly ever tune strict Pythagorean thirds anymore just because it always sounds too strong for the musicians I work with. That goes for harpsichords as well as modern pianos.  All that aside, my bottom line point was only that we should be able to incorporate aural checks to confirm our results.  I will be confident we can agree on that.  The fact that early keyboards often have less inharmonicity than modern pianos does not diminish the importance of aural checks either. Early keyboards can also present difficulties in getting an accurate read in the first place, which only greater emphasises the need for aural checks.  If you know what you are trying to do and are happy with the results, great!   

    Have a good day,
    Dennis. 




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  • 15.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2023 18:54
    Dennis,
    0.2¢ different is insignificant in my practice and experience. The only exception is unisons, and there it is on the edge of significant. This is true both of my own ear and that of any one of my clients. That degree of difference is simply imperceptible, particularly in the course of playing and listening to the music, but also in listening carefully and slowly to intervals. (BTW, the pitch of a plucked harpsichord wire varies by a good deal more than 0.2¢ between the pluck and the sustain). While aural checks are a good idea, I don't find that I often make changes based on them: they simply confirm that the tuning is as it should be, unless I have made a careless error or there is a stability problem. 

    I'd encourage you to check a few tunings aurally/electronically as I described in my recent Journal articles "Measuring How We Tune." It's a little time-consuming, but I think using that method of analysis demonstrates very clearly that tuning via ETD templates based on the math produces results that are essentially indistinguishable from tuning aurally (based also on the math - the beat rates we aim at are based on a mathematical template). Maybe your tuning chops will prove me wrong.

    It is, of course, possible to alter tunings to suit tastes (one's own and the client's), but this can also be done electronically by altering the math. One can make the just 5ths of Vallotti slightly narrow, which will necessarily require compensating by making the tempered 5ths slightly wider. That will result in both "more acceptable" (narrower) wide thirds and "less acceptable" (wider) narrow thirds. Whatever we do is a compromise, and tuning cannot be done without compromise due to the nature of reality.

    I tune with electronic assistance because my results are more accurate and more stable. I have found no down side in the form of a lowering of standards: the results are better than I can achieve by aural means alone.

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@comcast.net
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself." John Dewey




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  • 16.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 08:40
    Jason Kanter's website is a great temperament resource:


    -Cy- 




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  • 17.  RE: Vallotti temperament

    Member
    Posted 04-23-2023 19:48

    I've been recently told that my rollingball.com website is http and not https, meaning that it's vulnerable to sneaky shenanigans. So this week I will undertake to get it properly protected. Apologies, and thank you for the reminder to keep these things updated.



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    Jason Kanter
    Lynnwood WA
    (425) 830-1561
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