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Yamaha P22 issues

  • 1.  Yamaha P22 issues

    Member
    Posted 09-24-2022 11:05

     Back in May I posted about problems with a new Yamaha P22 that had a number of issues with keys sticking, notes going into checks. Although I did many things like easing the keys, adjustments to capstans etc the problems returned. The dealer exchanged the piano for another P22. I randomly sent an email to the music director in the church that bought the piano and she stated they are still having problems with the 2nd piano.  I still think there could be environmental problems and even offered to put a data logger in the piano for 2 weeks to try for a better diagnosis. However the music director declined the offer and said they are working with the dealer to solve the issues- she did not specify what that meant.

    Perhaps the piano should have several dehumidifier rods in it - one inside and another under the keybed. At this point I am wondering if this is the norm with new P22's. Could it be the materials being used for the keybeds ? I have seen something like MDF being used in some Yamahas . I know when I put together a workbench and used the thick pressed board shelf it warped like crazy and turned green from sucking up humidity in my garage.

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 2.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-24-2022 12:12

    The thing that stands out to me is that the same problems came back with the second piano. I think it's humidity related. The fact that the music director doesn't even want to let you look into the environment is a big red flag. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't put a lot of emotional energy into this. Just let the dealer know what you found and what you recommended, and that it was turned down. Then try to go and enjoy the weekend. 

    By the way, new Yamahas that I see do need some more prep work than they used to but I've never had issues return. And if regulation was addressed at the dealership, there's no reason the client should have continuing issues expect for humidity. 



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
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  • 3.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-24-2022 13:42
    When she says she’s trying to resolve the problem with the dealer, she’s basically saying she doesn’t think you have the skills to solve the problems. She’s hoping the dealer will send someone else out to “fix” the piano. Maybe she’ll have you back when the other tuner can’t fix the problem, either. In the mean time, just lay low and don’t worry about it.

    Wim

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 4.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Member
    Posted 09-24-2022 17:19
    Both of you are probably right . I am not sure what the conversations going back and forth but in my experience many of the problems in church pianos here can be due to the poor environment the pianos are subjected to. To save money on the electric bills many deep cycle the ac shutting it down after the last service on a Sunday. Around about Friday they fire the system up on overdrive so things are good by Sunday morning. There are also other scenarios where they turn it on and off the same day; the hvac is totally useless in some cases, pianos are located near vents etc.  This same church had a grand piano in the main sanctuary yet the hammer pinning was all over the place . It had a dampp chaser installed under it but not properly located. In another church someone had placed the dehumidifier road ACROSS the strings.  I wrote all of my findings and recommendation up but never got responses.

    It will be interesting to see if piano #3 is problem free ....   I give the booklet that Dampp Chaser publishes that show how humidity affects pianos to customers so that they are aware of options. However I often have to give information on room de-humidification and keeping the thermostat at a reasonable setting avoiding frequent re-sets


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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 5.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-25-2022 08:29
    I would be interested to know if this a P22 SE.

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    Tim Coates RPT
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 6.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Member
    Posted 09-25-2022 10:18
    I will try to find out. The original one I worked on was a satin black finish that I had to do several things like ease all the keys at balance rail front and key button felts, adjust capstans down , adjust some backchecks .

    I have not seen the second P22 which has a wood tone finish. What is the difference between a P22  and a P22 SE  ?

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 7.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-26-2022 03:42
    Letters after P-22 usually refer to the finish, most common are:
    SE=Satin Ebony
    PE=Polished Ebony


    Ed Whitting, RPT
    Sent from my iPhone




  • 8.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Posted 09-25-2022 10:32
    Hi James:

    I think I can approach this with a bit more familiarity than most.  I googled Pawleys Island.  You sure live in a beautiful little town.  I am amazed that a coastal Atlantic town in 2022 could have survived in its present condition without the developers and real estate barons coming in and destroying it with condominiums and runaway greed.  Lucky you.  

    Anyway, I looked at lots of pictures and I pretty much see bodies of water everywhere.  You live on a narrow barrier island with the Atlantic Ocean in front, and a body of water (river?) on the back side.  So did I, in Ocean City, Maryland, a 10 mile long narrow barrier island, with the ocean in the front and a long 1/2 mile wide bay in the back.  Back in the late 50's and early 60's It looked like Pawley's Island does now, and seeing your pictures tugged at my heart.  Now it is Mondo Condo, forever spoiled, with a half million people there on a summer weekend.

    I worked my way through college waiting on tables in OC, and also lived there for several years.  The marshes with lots of mosquitos were all but at my back door.  

    I think that the climate between OC and Pawleys would be very similar, and that is one of intense, constant humidity year round.  Really hard on buildings and cars at that time -  it seemed like you were always painting your house because it just would not last long before peeling, and everyone's car would hastily begin to turn into a rust bucket.  Doors and drawers would stick - I remember one super rainy summer that my standing joke became, "It was so rainy that I wanted to kill myself, but I couldn't get the knife drawer open."

    Suffice it to say that the humidity and the salt in the air are really hard on pianos.  Your experience with the church piano is par for the course.  

    I would call Dampp Chaser and share the particulars of your intense environment, and ask them what they would recommend as an effective strategy for the piano.  Ask that they respond to you via email with their recommendations.  Then share that email with the church.  

    It was not a small thing for a piano dealer to take back the first piano.  He loses more money than you might think in this situation.  He acted in good faith towards the customer, but he should not do this a second time.  Then they will ask for a third piano, or a refund.  Then the hit to the dealer becomes huge.  The problem is not the piano, it is an impossible environment.  

    Perhaps his good faith effort would be to split the cost of the recommended dampp chaser system with the customer.  If they are unwilling to be reasonable when they are being treated so well, then it is time for the dealer to say no.  

    Potentially, you can be a facilitator towards the best interests of the church and the dealer here.  That can leave you in good stead with both parties, should it work out.

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    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
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  • 9.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-27-2022 07:58
    A call to Yamaha Support reveals there are some issues with the key bushings on several models of the vertical pianos.  Their fix is 100 degree ironing so they don't curl and cause the sluggishness.  I noticed some severe front key bushing curling on a new BU1 SE.  It might not hurt to iron the balance bushings also.

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    Tim Coates RPT
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 10.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Member
    Posted 09-27-2022 20:29
    It would seem something like this would be a warranty issue which should be for all new bushings bushed properly. Sounds like poor gluing job, poor bushing cloth. if that is the case with the keys one has to wonder about the action centers and bushings as well

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 11.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Member
    Posted 09-28-2022 11:38
    Regarding Tim's contact with Yamaha about ironing temps - I'm guessing the 100 degrees would be C. and not F.

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    AL Hardin
    Lead Piano Tech
    Texas Tech University
    (806) 441-3112
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  • 12.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-28-2022 08:52
    Is this warranty ?

    It sounds like environmental
    I have seen what may be this on Yamahas and other brands for years.

    When the keys are at rest high humidity causes the felt ( they have nice side play at this position) to swell around the front rail pins then
     when depressed the pins contact the swelled area

    If the environment will continue to be hostile you could re bush with a denser felt or leather but some noise may result.

    Is this the manufacturers fault?

    The piano is made to work well under the conditions they recommend soooo......

    Of course I am only sharing the experience I have had your situation may be different

    Hope the issues are resolved for all.






  • 13.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-28-2022 14:03
    Hi There,
    I take care of a few P22 (about year 2000) all settled in no real problems (I've only been taking care of them for 5 years now).  After covid when things went back to some normal. The humidity went to 10% after a summer with very high humidity and a leak. I had to go over all of the keys because of sticking. I removed keys and cleaned below. I used the back end of proper sized drill bit and eased BR key holes, where tight. Some were chucking from someone else's trouble shooting and some had over eased bushings.  I used soap stone in the holes of the keys that were too light (rubbed the stone on the drill bit) and the sharps had the most problems.

    I found most of the problems were in the middle of the key stick between the bushing and the top of the balance rail hole.  I adjusted lost motion. Turned some hammer shanks they were twisted, tightened and spaced hammers and wippen screws (screws were loose). 

    I've experienced this mid way of the key problem many times before and I've seen lots of aggressive key easing in the wrong places.  By using the right sized  drill bit shank or a key pin you can feel where the key is tight and determine actions to take. 

    My feeling is that temperature has as much to due with this as humidity and we aren't just dealing with cloth but also wood and wood moves with temperature changes and humidity changes. 

    Just my thoughts.

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    Jessica Masse RPT
    Western Michigan University
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  • 14.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-28-2022 14:36
    My experience with new upright pianos, P22, U1, Kawai UST, etc., was that every single one would have tight balance pins and bushings within a few months of delivery. They would also have reduced key dip (bobbling hammers being the symptom) within a year. I purchased around 40 new uprights over 15 years, and this array of symptoms was essentially invariable.

    Since I didn't see them before delivery, I don't know whether they were borderline tight at that point. I attributed it in part to my dry climate in NM: wood shrinking, therefore balance holes and key mortises also shrinking. The bobbling hammers had to do with shrinkage of the key on the vertical plane.

    I developed a standard protocol of reaming all balance holes (precision-sized reamer about .001" larger than balance pin diameter - source either Pianotek or McMaster/Carr), and ironing all bushings (definitely 100 degrees celsius, not Fahrenheit), at the same time applying powdered teflon to the bushings and McLube 444 to the key pins. You can see those procedures in detail in my video Size and Lube

    I would also raise the balance rail by about .020 - .040" with shims to reestablish the original key height and dip. This sort of thing is not a warrantee issue, it is normal response to environmental conditions. Once corrected, the pianos were quite stable.

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein












  • 15.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Member
    Posted 09-28-2022 14:56
    Fred.. I used the PianoTek tool and also have a tool from FluegalBauer to ease keys. I also polished and lubed the keypins but did not iron the bushings. Still have not heard back from the dealer if issues are resolved or what her latest complaints where. I am out of the picture but based on the time I spent in that church and the separate choir practice building I think environmental surroundings contribute to the problem, They should consider at least a partial D/C and maybe a dehumidifier under the keybed

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-29-2022 10:52
    One of my church clients just purchased a new P22 (in April, but didn't call me until August).Went to tune it a couple weeks ago. They declined the dealer's tuner. 

    I noticed the tuning pins on this one are drive quite deep overall and some almost to the coils. 

    A few of them are less torque than I would expect. Anyone else experience this with new Yamahas? From what I am reading, there has been some changes to QC where these units are being assembled. 





  • 17.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-29-2022 11:23
    Haven't tuned new ones recently, but I hope you have taken photos of those too-deep tuning pin coils, and consider giving a call to Yamaha technical services about this QC problem. They might give you and your clients some support in discussing replacement by the dealer.
    Good luck!

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 18.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-29-2022 14:36
    Patrick,

    Thanks for the suggestion. I did take photos but for another class I am doing.
    Hadn't thought about this as a warranty issue, but I will save the photos and monitor it for possible warranty support. 






  • 19.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Posted 09-30-2022 11:08
    James, I would like to take a moment to wish you the best of luck in what may be a very tough day.  The latest weather maps show Pawleys Island almost in the bullseye of where Hurricane Ian will come ashore in South Carolina - with 75 mph winds with gusts up to 105 mph, possibly 6 inches of rain, 6 to 10 foot surf and a storm surge of 4 to 7 feet, and the storm arriving near high tide.  I found you on the map and you look to be equidistant between a river and the ocean, and not all that far from either.  

    You are at risk and I pray for you, your family, and the integrity of your home, and all of that for your neighbors and friends.  Stay safe.

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    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
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  • 20.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Member
    Posted 09-30-2022 19:48
    Thank you for your thoughts and concerns. We are doing okay and very fortunate. I was due to go work on a Boston in a home yesterday at the end of the South Causeway . The client sent me a picture of the road and it was completely under water at 1145 am. On the ocean side the dunes where eroded quite a bit. Fortunate for her the house is elevated. Further north in Garden City there was lots of ocean flooding as well as marsh flooding. The river could be a problem in a few days since it flows south from North Carolina . Last time this type of event happened I was able to save two Yamaha Grands from destruction because my good friend who owns Grand Strand Piano was able to get them to safety.

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 21.  RE: Yamaha P22 issues

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-29-2022 11:34
    Dear Fred,

    Speaking as a former manufacturer's representative, your sizing procedure is spot on and considered routine maintenance for any new piano regardless of brand or model, regardless of the application. 

    Removing excess wood at the bottom hole is the preferred manner by several manufacturers when the bottom hole is tight.  Doing this with a cylindrical tool is one option and might be the fastest.  Another is to only remove wood from the treble and bass sides of the bottom hole.  This can be accomplished through the use of a Nicholson 4" round bastard file ground off on two opposing sides then carefully sizing the bottom hole as needed.  This 'filing method' was shown to me in the 1970's by Golden Hammer recipient and then National Service Manager for Kawai America Corp., George Defebaugh. Yamaha prefers wood be pushed away from the pin on the treble and bass sides of the hole with the use of the Yamaha CF tool.  All three ways are effective when performed with care.  My preferred method is removing the wood.  Should the problem come back I would assess the specific cause but look for a reason not to use the CF tool.

    Lubrication, as you describe, and fitting of the keys can not be overstated with regard to bushing longevity. Key bushing fit is a subject often talked about in the macro but not the micro.  There is a very fine line between key bushings that are too tight and too loose. 0.1 mm - 0.2 mm is the lateral movement standard in most new pianos. In that small specification:  Tighter bushings last longer than looser bushings and they typically wear on one side of the key more than the other.  The typical wear pattern in the treble section is on the bass side of the key the opposite is true in the bass section.  This is important when using key pliers or applying heat in the ironing process:  When possible only ease the side of the bushing that is not receiving the bulk of the wear: This reduces the amount of key leveling caused by bushing adjustment.  In the middle section, look at the key bushing and make a choice based on the wear you see, ease the side that has the least amount of wear.  Most of this can be applied to the front bushings, key level being the possible exception.  A final thought on lubrication for now:  Lubrication needs to be reapplied from time to time wear being at least one of the determining factors.

    When replacing key bushings or resizing with Profelt, there will be less leveling work if the wear side of the balance rail bushing button has not had easing pliers or a heating element applied.  It should also be noted that hardwood buttons are very difficult to ease or resize without filing or sanding which should be considered a last resort usually brought on by nothing to do with the key or the original felt bushing.  In all cases, when installing new bushing felt it is critical to select the proper felt thickness especially if the key buttons are hardwood.   

    Ed Whitting, RPT

    Professional Products & Services, Inc.

    24392 Peacock Street, Lake Forest, California 92630

    Cell 714-501-4717, Office 949-830-6847, FAX 949-830-1392