Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

Creating a Touch to Die For

  • 1.  Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-09-2013 02:13
    I read with great interest the series of articles in recent journals by Darrell Fandrich and John Rhodes entitled "Creating a Touch to Die For".   The articles were thought-provoking and raised a lot of questions in my mind.  I am glad this information and research was shared through the journal.   I would like to hear comments by others regarding some of the questions that were raised.
    1.  Does this method of creating a good action ratio place the achievement of the magic line as a lower priority than an acceptable action ratio according to their parameters?  
    2. Does a capstan move for better leverage sometimes require ignoring the magic line?  I have always raked capstans if I move them so that the heel didn't have to be moved.  Some say the capstan should not be raked.  Would this require moving the heel and thus parts that allow that such as WNG reps? 
    3.  Does this method contradict the Stanwood protocols and techniques? 
    4.  Is it right to say that just because other methods have not "caught on" that they do not produce good results?  


    I will readily say that I have a customer who purchased a Fandrich and Sons HGS 165  grand and the touch and tone on it is very good and the price was very reasonable.    

    -------------------------------------------
    Bob Hull
    Jackson TN
    731-695-8419
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-09-2013 08:51
    <Bob Hull wrote:

    <1.  Does this method of creating a good action ratio place the achievement of the magic line as a lower priority than an acceptable action ratio according to their parameters? 

    In my conversations with John Rhodes yes, magic line receives a lower priority, with the magic line converging somewhere during the stroke. 

    The magic line, in my view,  is a very slippery creature  to start with, as its definition depends on many variables which are understood differently by different techs. For instance, where is half blow? some call it half way between rest and letoff, some call it half-way between rest and string height, and some call it half-way between rest and the amount the hammer would have swung if there were no letoff and no string.

    I used to obsess about this aspect of the design, but it is no longer the highest parameter on my hit parade.

    <2. Does a capstan move for better leverage sometimes require ignoring the magic line?  I have always raked capstans if I move them so that the heel didn't have to be moved.  Some say the capstan should not be raked.  Would this require moving the heel and thus parts that allow that such as WNG reps?

    A definite advantage of the modular WNG setup, as by moving the heel and making use of the varying heights of heels as well, you can, if you choose, hit your defined magic line with impunity, often using the existing location and height of the balance rail. One can also use different heels on the whites and sharps to target their respective magic lines.

    <4.  Is it right to say that just because other methods have not "caught on" that they do not produce good results? 

    In my view, the success of any one protocol over other protocols has much more to do with public relations, than exclusive ownership of the "right way" to do it. That is, if the person(s) who created the approach can effectively advocate for, sell, and provide step-by-step protocols and explanations for others to follow, their "method" will be come adopted as the method "du jour". Really great ideas which do not provide step-by-step protocols and training to end users end up unnecessarily, and unfortunately relegated to the "outlier" heap.  

    For my own work, as I have worked with the Fandrich/Rhodes protocol and assumptions, the aspect that was hardest for me to accept was that DW is a result of targeted friction level and prioritized UW ranges. The more I work with this, the more I understand the UW prioritization, and like it, touch wise.

    Also in ,my own work, regarding the "outlier" methods, I have used Ed Mcmorrow's Lighthammer  techniques, especially on my own personal projects where "cover my ass" caution is not a part of the equation. The tonal results and touch results, which are quite different than the European assumptions of Fandrich/Rhodes, have produced, for me my favorite instrument to play...so...go figure...most things can work if you think about what you are doing.

    Jim Ialeggio  
      

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------




  • 3.  Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-09-2013 09:50
    On 10/9/2013 7:49 AM, Jim Ialeggio wrote: > > > achievement of the magic line as a lower priority than an acceptable > action ratio according to their parameters? > > In my conversations with John Rhodes yes, magic line receives a lower > priority, with the magic line converging somewhere during the > stroke. A number of people on the list, past and present, have said similar from a lot of years of personal experience. > I used to obsess about this aspect of the design, but it is no longer > the highest parameter on my hit parade. I think it's more of a result than a hard parameter, an indication that other factors are in the ball park. > A definite advantage of the modular WNG setup, as by moving the heel > and making use of the varying heights of heels as well, you can, if > you choose, hit your defined magic line with impunity, often using > the existing location and height of the balance rail. A definite luxury. > One can also > use different heels on the whites and sharps to target their > respective magic lines. One can. It's a matter of how bad your starting configuration is and how fine you want to split the hair. > "caught on" that they do not produce good results? > > In my view, the success of any one protocol over other protocols has > much more to do with public relations, than exclusive ownership of > the "right way" to do it. Following any checklist protocol without thinking can produce anything from a wonderful job to a disaster, and it's not the fault of the protocol. Engage the brain we all carry around by default, and work toward making the entire action work, and you won't have any sacred or immutable parameters. You'll most likely steal good ideas from every system you've ever heard about, and probably won't do the same thing exactly twice, but your odds of producing an optimal job from what you had to start with will improve. > The tonal results and touch results, which are quite different than > the European assumptions of Fandrich/Rhodes, have produced, for me my > favorite instrument to play...so...go figure...most things can work > if you think about what you are doing. There's no "go figure" about it. Most things can work if you think about what you're doing. Ron N


  • 4.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-09-2013 13:06
    Regarding the importance of the magic line.  Visualize this:  Replace the capstan dome with the lead point of a pencil, and replace the heel cloth with a strip of paper.  Move the action through full dip and look at the length of the line drawn by the pencil on the paper.  

    If the geometry is such that the magic line is crossed mid dip, the pencil line will be 2.8 mils long; if the magic line is crossed at either rest or full dip the pencil line will be 11.3 mils long -- roughly the thickness of three sheets of typing paper.  The friction contribution is insignificant for either situation.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------




  • 5.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-09-2013 15:18
    To put it in perspective, the knuckle (in any but the Overs design) is so far off the "magic line" it is ridiculous - if the magic line is magic. And there is a lot more force at play in that interface than between capstan and wipp cushion. The main factor for magic line is friction, and resultant wear of parts, so it is significant for stability of regulation. Center the interface of parts on the line at half the motion they will go through together, and there will be the least rubbing, but the amount of rubbing isn't that much anyway. There isn't a lot of friction created at the capstan interface with the wipp cushion, if the parts are cleaned and lubed, even if you are pretty far from that line.

    I think the magic line concept became prominent from the Key and Wippen book by Pfeiffer, and from a couple columns in the PTJ years ago having to do with dowel capstans on old Steinway and other maker uprights - and those long dowel capstans do move A LOT (comparatively) on the cushion because of the geometry, so paying attention to the magic line can have a fairly big influence on touch in that design. It is one of those ideas that are easy to grasp, relatively easy to make a change, but the impact is more imaginary than real in most cases.

    Overs' design is more or less a case in point: what struck me most forcefully in playing his pianos was how little difference I felt from standard design. I wish I had had more opportunity to hone in on analyzing the experience, but that was my main takeaway.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-09-2013 19:15
    It would be interesting to hear reviews from technicians that have purchased and used the Weightbench equipment, software and techniques.  
    -------------------------------------------
    Bob Hull
    Jackson TN
    731-695-8419
    -------------------------------------------








  • 7.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2013 09:02
    Re #2 and raking the capstan when you move it The effective key ratio from a move of the capstan will not be based on where the capstan joins the key but from a line drawn straight down from the capstan/heel contact point (if you use the Stanwood method for measuring KR), or from the contact point itself. If you leave the capstan heel contact point on the heel the same and simply rake the capstan in order to have it join the key in a different position hoping to change the KR, you will not have changed the key ratio. Re raking the capstan in general, I prefer that the capstan is straight and always change the raked capstans and wippen heel type to square if the original is raked. Seems to have advateges in terms of friction. ------------------------------------------- David Love RPT www.davidlovepianos.com davidlovepianos@comcast.net 415 407 8320 -------------------------------------------


  • 8.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2013 10:07
    That would be "advantages". 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-10-2013 12:01
    Moving the Capstan:  The capstan move described in "Creating a Touch to Die For" resulted in the most dramatic action ratio improvements according to Fandrich and Rhodes.  So, this capstan move must have included a heel move as well to avoid a raked capstan.  The 1923 Steinway M on which I just rebuilt and installed new WNG parts had raked capstans.  I  moved the capstans and installed them straight up, positioning them exactly on the magic line at half dip. This worked out with the heel in the standard location on the rep.    The touch is now heavier than the original however.  
    Did this era of Steinway M have raked capstans as original? (Must be because there is no "old plugged hole" ) 
    You are saying that a capstan move that leaves the contact point with the heel in the same plane, does not help leverage?  Why were these originally raked?   
    Using the analogy of two children on a teeter-totter: If the lighter child wants to increase his ability to lift the heavier child, he must move the heavier child closer to his own position and shorten the lever arm between the heavy child and the fulcrum point.  If the heavy child is sitting on a "capstan" then it does not benefit the leverage situation to move his capstan only.  You must also move the child (i.e. the heel).
    If this analogy is correct, then why were capstans moved?  I have experienced the need for less weights in keys after moving and raking capstans without changing the heel location!   
    Explain this, please.



    -------------------------------------------
    Bob Hull
    Jackson TN
    731-695-8419
    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-10-2013 12:19

    >I have experienced the need for less weights in keys after moving and raking capstans without changing the heel location!   
    Explain this, please.

    >Bob Hull

    Moving the head of the capstan forward or back effectively changes the whip lower lever arm. At the same time it also changes the key back lever arm...its a double whammy. The point of contact between capstan and heel determines the length of the lever arms not the heel itself. There are plenty of good action rebuilders who cut the bottom of the heel, and apply a flat piece of action cloth on a long heel bottom, allowing adjustment of the capstan without running off the radius of the normal heel cloth.

    But the bottom line is the point of contact between capstan and heel determines the lever arm length.

    Jim Ialeggio



    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------





  • 11.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 01:36
    Actually the analogy which best illustrates the point would be if the heavy child simply leans forward toward the fulcrum while remaining seated in the same spot, he will be easier to lift. I don't know why the capstans were raked originally but I do know that the lever arm is determined by the capstan/heel contact point and not where the capstan joins with the key. It's easy enough to do an experiment. Take the capstan out and replace it with a nail that is three inches long, angled back toward the back check at some angle, say 45 degrees. A line drawn straight down to the key from the top of the nail will be farther back than where the nail joins the key. Balance the front of the key on a scale a la Stanwood as if you are measuring the key ratio. Tare the scale. Place a 10 gram weight at the point where the nail joins the key and observe the weight displacement on the scale. Now move the 10 gram weight so that it sits on top of the nail which is leaning back (you'll have to attach it somehow). Even though the nail joins the key at the same spot from which you measured the first displacement, the second measurement will be greater in magnitude. The forward or aft placement of the wippen heel on the wippen itself will have no bearing on the wippen lever ratio. The wippen lever arm is determined by the distance from the capsta/heel contact point to the wippen center pin. Moving the heel to better center it over the capstan won't change that. ------------------------------------------- David Love RPT www.davidlovepianos.com davidlovepianos@comcast.net 415 407 8320 -------------------------------------------


  • 12.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-11-2013 09:28
    >I don't know why the capstans were raked originally...

    Chris Robinson, in a class years ago, said this was an involute (intersecting of gear teeth kind of thing).

    Many times when there is little to not after touch, I'll reposition the capstan from its 16 degree back angle to 3-5 degrees or 90 degrees.
    This causes the rear portion if the capstan to engage the cushion, increasing ratio thru the keystroke and thus achieving after touch.
    Did it last week.
    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 13.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 12:57
    Bob,
    You should re-read the September Journal article (pp 13-14).  Nowhere do we claim anything resembling your statement underlined below.

    To correct the Schafer & Sons described in the September article, we used a combination of capstan move, hammer weight reduction, and shorter blow distance.  All were needed to achieve an acceptable inertia response with an acceptable regulation.  Though not stated in the article, the Schafer & Sons existing knuckle position was 16.5 mm, so increasing this dimension was not practical.

    When considering the options for adjusting action ratio, we look at both capstan move and knuckle position move.  On rare occasions (for example, where a prior technician has badly botched a conversion from rocker capstans with stickers to modern capstans) we will fabricate a new keyboard with changes in all of the key geometry.  Our decision is based on the cost of the changes, the quality of the result, and the needs (and budget) of the owner.

    Knuckle moves are limited by action spread and the jack window.  Capstan moves don't have similar strict limits, but the decision must factor in the "line of convergence" [nice phrase Jude...I like it!], and potential need for heel relocation.  There are costs associated with each strategy.  The technician must be well informed of both the theory and the practical application of any strategy (or combination thereof) to make a cost-effective decision.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 01:05
    Assuming that the top surface of the capstan is spherical, I constructed a simplified CAD model of the relationship between the reaction lever arm of the key with the effort lever arm of the wippen.  I further assumed that it was preferable that the contact point between the capstan and the wippen heel never extend beyond the crowned top surface of the capstan.  With this in mind, the head of the capstan could be represented in the model as a perfect sphere.   While some wippen heels are flat on the bottom, many, if not most, are curved.  In my model I defined the wippen heel with a radius.  These and other characteristics and dimensions were consistent with a particular grand action, but typical of many grand action configurations.

    Imagine a capstan with a perfectly spherical head.  It matters not what direction the stem of the capstan takes to engage the key.  The changing contact point and action ratio, through the range of motion of the key, is the same, regardless of the angle of the capstan stem. The only issues to consider, with respect to the angle of the capstan, are which angle will best bear the load of repeated blows on the key, and which angle is easiest to adjust.  The best angle to meet both of these criteria is perpendicular to the key stick.  There is no advantage, frictional or otherwise, to deviate from this.

    From this simplified model, I learned that the contact point between the capstan and wippen traverses almost exactly the same distance along the surface of the wippen as along the surface of the capstan (less than 0.002mm).  This would suggest that there is no "scrubbing" friction between the capstan and wippen.  WRONG!  The fact is that the point of contact moves faster, over a greater distance, along the surface of the capstan as it approaches the Magic line.  Once it crosses the Magic line, the reverse is true.  The contact point moves more quickly across the wippen than the capstan, as it moves beyond the Magic line.  The bottom line is that there is a continuous "scrubbing" motion throughout the motion of the key and action, reversing direct as it crosses the Magic line.  

    -------------------------------------------
    George (Frank) Emerson, RPT
    Silver Springs FL
    -------------------------------------------


  • 15.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 11:54
    Even without coffee, I believe Ed has it right.  The scrubbing increases as the square of the distance of the contact point from the line of convergence.

    George, I feel it's important to state the magnitude of the scrub.  With the short (~12 mm) capstan radius and typical geometry, the scrubbing length will be the same as I described in my post several days ago where I used the analogy of a pencil point on a piece of paper.  The resulting friction contribution to the overall action is still undetectable.  

    The critical point of this discussion is the contact point between capstan and heel is moving along the lever arms, and the move results in a changing action ratio during the key stroke. 

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 17:27
    If I am understanding correctly, this movement of the contact point is what affects the change of ratio during the course of the stroke. Two contact points (one on each surface) are moving simultaneously at different rates and directions. I can see that there are a number of unanswered questions here.
    First, how does this translate into change of ratio, putting together the changing contact points on each lever arm (capstan/wippen in this instance)? What magnitude are we talking about, and what is the direction of change (is the ratio going up or down)?
    Second, how much does this vary when we move a capstan? How much difference in general, and how much difference if we center on convergence as opposed to allowing the contact point to be one side or the other?
    Third, how does this compare with a knuckle movement of a magnitude to make the same overall average action ratio change? And how exactly does the ratio change with respect to the jack knuckle interface moving during the keystroke? Is it similar to the changes during keystroke of capstan and wippen interface, or at odds, canceling out to some extent?
    Fourth, how do these magnitudes of change compare to the total picture? How significant are they, in fact? Are they perceptible?

    It is obviously a very complex set of scenarios we are talking about, but maybe the first step is simply to try to come to terms with the magnitudes involved in the wippen/capstan relationship, to see whether or not some of the intuitive/anecdotal conclusions have a basis in geometry/mechanics.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 18:53
    Fred, I'll try to answer those questions.  

    1) There is only one common contact point.  What George pointed out was the locus of the contact points on the heel could be of a different length than the locus of the contact points on the capstan dome.  If the line of convergence is crossed mid-dip, then the length of those two lines will be equal.  But there is some scrubbing taking place, as several have pointed out, even if the lines are of the same length.

    2)  The ratio increases as the key moves from rest to full dip.

    3)  The ratio change due to the capstan rolling on the heel cloth is approximately what would be achieved with a 1 mm capstan move.  Using Weightbench's calculator (with the Renner action model with 17.0 mm knuckle as the prototype) I find the 1 mm capstan move will change the AR from 5.41 to 5.54.  For comparison, the 16.0 mm knuckle has an AR of 5.74 with the capstan in reference position.  It requires about 2.5 mm capstan move to achieve the same AR change as replacing a 17.0 mm knuckle with a 16.0 mm knuckle.  

    4)  In my experience, the inertial effect of a 1 mm capstan move would not be detected by a pianist.  A 2.5 mm capstan move (or the equivalent change from 16.0 to 17.0 mm knuckle) will be noticed by all but the most insensitive pianist.

    5)  Centering--or not--on the convergence line will not affect the magnitude of the capstan-roll AR change. If we deviate a lot (e.g., greater than 10 mm or so) from the convergence line, the scrubbing may become detectable.

    6)  If you radically depart from a 12 mm radius on the capstan dome -- for example, making the dome flat -- all bets are off!  If you want to minimize the AR change due to capstan roll, then decrease the dome radius; but keep in mind that doing so will result in higher contact force (per unit area) on the heel cloth.  The piano designers a century ago settled on the 1/2" radius as a good compromise.

    7)  Q:  Does the capstan roll partially compensate for the changes in AR created at the knuckle-jack interface?
         A:  I don't know.

    8)  Q: [paraphrasing} Does it matter?  
         A:  I think it's important to explore these little discoveries.  Individually they may not be detectable, but in aggregate they could be.  When we are trying to specify a design or rebuild target, that target should consider all our understanding.  The challenge remains to decide which components of the target are deserving of special attention, and which can receive minimum effort.  

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 18.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-13-2013 20:30
    <3)  The ratio change due to the capstan rolling on the heel cloth is approximately what would be achieved with a 1 mm capstan move.  Using Weightbench's calculator (with the Renner action model with 17.0 mm knuckle as the prototype) I find the 1 mm capstan move will change the AR from 5.41 to 5.54.  For comparison, the 16.0 mm knuckle has an AR of 5.74 with the capstan in reference position.  It requires about 2.5 mm capstan move to achieve the same AR change as replacing a 17.0 mm knuckle with a 16.0 mm knuckle.  

    John Rhodes

    Forgive me if I'm being dim, using the touch calculator to find the AR change assumes you effect the lever arms as you would in moving a capstan. I think this is incorrect.  The calculator assumes that if you lengthen the key back lever, you shorten the whip lower lever. But that's not the case here.  According to your thread picture, if you assume some small lengthening of the key back lever as you contact a different part of the capstan head, you also lengthen the whip lower lever. Whatever the change, if indeed the 2 don't cancel each other out, it is not the magnitude of a capstan change.

    Jim Ialeggio
    ,   

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------
















  • 19.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 21:12
    Nope.

    I should have labeled the pictures.  The wippen center is to the left, and the BR is to the right.  The left frame is at rest, and the right frame is with about 6 mm of key dip.

    The thread moves left, indicating lengthening the key back lever (BR to capstan distance) and shortening the whip lower lever (capstan to wippen center distance).  Equivalent to a capstan move,

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 20.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 22:27
      |   view attached
    Here's a full frame picture for better orientation. [attached]

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 21.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-13-2013 22:52
    Thanks for the new pic...but I still don't get the picture...not yankin', just been staring at it for a couple of hours and want to understand it.

    >I should have labeled the pictures.  The wippen center is to the left, and the BR is to the right.  The left frame is at rest, and the right frame is with about 6 mm of key dip.

    That's how I interpreted it

    >The thread moves left, indicating lengthening the key back lever (BR to capstan distance) and shortening the whip lower lever (capstan to wippen center distance). 

    The thread is threaded thought the heel cloth and on the other end held stable on the table.

    The left picture, at rest, shows the thread marking the center of the capstan and its contact point on the heel.

    The right picture is what confuses me, as the contact point still seems like a guessing game. I don't see how the thread predicts the contact point. Maybe gear theory would explain where the contact point is theoretically supposed to be.

    Instead, I drew it out in CAD and swung all the arcs. Though I can maybe see the movement as you describe, depending on capstan head radius, heel radius, or flat heel, mushyness of the cloth, and phase of the moon, that contact point could in reality be any number of places, and vary with different strike weights.

    I ain't goin' there man..splittin' hairs...

    Jim Ialeggio

        

     

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



  • 22.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 23:40
    Jim,

    I agree, it's a bit mushy!  But it is real.  I looped the thread around the top of the capstan dome between dome and cloth -- so it does a "U" turn -- and then pulled gently on the two ends of the "U" - closest to the camera's position.  The thread slips easily between capstan and cloth where the pressure is low, but hangs up on the high pressure area.  Just before the thread "U" finally pulls free, the "U" is straddling the area of highest contact pressure.  My impression is that this high-pressure spot is the point of effective contact.  [This agrees with my CAD simulation, and presumably with George's CAD model too.]

    In the left frame of the first-posted picture (rest), the threads are aligned with the center-line of the capstan.  In the right frame (6 mm of dip), the threads are straddling a different spot on the capstan dome:  They have shifted left of the capstan center line ... by about a millimeter.  

    Give it a try.  I think you will be convinced.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 23.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2013 13:33
    John,
    Thanks for the answers, but I guess I didn't state my questions precisely enough. I was trying to get at the "dynamic" action ratio, the ratio as it changes during the keystroke as opposed to the average ratio for the entire stroke, and how that varies in the different scenarios. As the contact point, either capstan or knuckle, moves with respect to the two levers involved, the ratio changes a wee bit, in one direction or another. It doesn't seem to do so linearly (at least that is what I am gathering), but depending on the scenario it might grow higher in different accelerating ways and/or grow smaller in similarly different accelerating ways, depending where along the keystroke you are.

    If we are looking at how the same overall average ratio might differ in actual performance, depending on pairs of capstan and knuckle positions, it seems like the interplay between the changes in ratio during the keystroke might be a good place to look.

    Of course, it really shouldn't be done in isolation from the other lever motion that changes during keystroke, the key itself and its moving balance fulcrum. On that subject, I have wondered about modifying the Steinway half round to be a triangle with a right angle or so facing upward, to remove that change from the equation. I'm not sure that's practical, but it would simplify the model. (Gluing a half cardboard punching on the underside of each key, with the cut facing the front of the key, emulates that - and has a definite measurable effect on touch weight and how the action feels).

    In any case, in all of this, a big question is how great a magnitude any of these changes has compared to the "big picture." Lots of minor changes definitely add up to something meaningful, but we need to know whether some of these changes we imagine are having an impact really do - thinking about, for instance, what Jude was talking about.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 24.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2013 00:08
      |   view attached
    Hi John, since you said that the ratio (I assume you are talking about the composite action leverage ratio) increases during key dip, I wanted to show some photos I took, that are in my book Pianos Inside Out. I apologize for the pdf file not being in color. Maybe you are talking about the leverage ratio of the key and wippen only? Looking from the hammer end, the total action leverage decreases in all actions I've observed. The series of photos in the attachment illustrate this. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    -------------------------------------------



    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    Book_p284.pdf   120 KB 1 version


  • 25.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2013 09:07
      |   view attached
    Attached is additional anecdotal evidence that the overall AR decreases as key dip increases. The photo shows the results of using the Erwin AR gage in an unusual way. The investigating tech (not me)  turned it upside down and used pennies for dip. Beginning with one penny, then measuring hammer rise, then two pennies, etc. The results are tabulated and speak for themselves.

    Note that the attached graph describes the tech's plotted curve, which is bit bumpy, indicating an unmistakable trend toward a slowing hammer rise relative to dip, hence a slowing rate of change known as our AR. This trend toward a shrinking AR per increasing key dip mirrors the measurements and photos depicted in Mario's book (which I highly recommend, BTW).

    A physical measurement, as crude
    as it may be, and whether it be of a piano action or any system or piece of machinery, needs to be taken into account when attempting to describe and define that system in mathematical terms.

    nikko

    Attachment(s)

    doc
    Pennies_DAR.doc   28 KB 1 version


  • 26.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-15-2013 13:14
    >A physical measurement, as crude as it may be, and whether it be of a piano action or any system or piece of machinery, needs to be taken into account when attempting to describe and define that system in mathematical terms.

    >nikko

    Add to that, that the physical conditions measured statically will, no doubt, be altered yet again at speed, at different strike forces and with different strike weights...all, unfortunately, very difficult to measure physically at speed.

    Jim Ialeggio




    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------
















  • 27.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-15-2013 19:34
    As the hammer rises, the knuckle rotates on the rep lever and the contact point gets closer to the hammer center. The input arm gets shorter, how can the ratio decrease? Could the rate of decrease in hammer travel be attributed to the loss of knuckle height as it rotates?

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 28.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2013 12:26
    In actual play, the action does, indeed, behave differently. Especially when there is a lot of force applied, there is a lot of flexing and compressing, some of which behaves like loading a spring that is later released. The shank and the key flex, and the wippen cushion and knuckle compress, as do the action centers (not so much on WNG, both for centers and for shank). Some of the energy that goes into that compression and flexion (probably most) is lost, but some acts later on in the cycle.

    The classic example is the front of the key hitting bottom before the hammer leaves rest. But the hammer does, in fact, strike the strings forcefully in that scenario (though we are looking at a badly designed and executed key). In this extreme example, we could say that the beginning of the "event," full key dip, had an effective ratio of zero (zero movement of hammer:10 mm full key dip), while the last part of the event had "infinite ratio" (46 mm blow:zero key dip). Using that as a model for inner visualization, we can at least imagine that rapid, forceful playing has or can have an effective higher ratio toward the end of the stroke, while PP playing will have the reduced ratio as we go through the stroke.

    This is probably quite significant to the pianist, something that is adapted to without necessarily grasping anything about it. I am thinking particularly about one of the key elements in expressive playing, the ability to bring out one note from among a number of notes played simultaneously (as, for instance, the top note of a chord). How is this done physically? It is a bit of a mystery, not well understood. Some measurements in studies I have read about have found that the note that is brought out striking its strings ahead of the others, with the notion that the finger on that key accelerated more and hit bottom earlier. Perhaps this is true sometimes.

    But I think there may be other intuitive methods of achieving this, which take into account the behavior of the action in real life. In trying to understand what I do myself, I have the sense that the predominant finger is stiffer, and feels more impact. Things are happening too fast to observe precisely, but I suspect that what is happening is that the other fingers, because they are less stiff, are bouncing off the bottom of the keystroke more, absorbing some of the spring that was inserted into the system by the keystroke. Thus, the stiff finger feels the impact more because it is holding the key front in place and acting as a fulcrum for the system, allowing the springiness to enter the picture in the form of more acceleration and force, while the others do the opposite.

    This is an imagination that has seemed to ring true for me for a good while, so I throw it out as something to think about.

    The reduced ratio at the end of the stroke is, as Mario pointed out, important for control of pianissimo, where only the bottom half or less of the keystroke is used. Maybe the interplay between this lowering ratio at PP and the rising ratio during forceful playing is a significant factor in the pianist's perception of an instrument, and ability to control the sound.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 29.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-16-2013 16:17
    Wow. GREAT post, Fred. You are a brilliant communicator. Sincerely appreciated. You make it easy for a clod like me to understand and visualize movement, which is no easy task; my spatial intelligence is rather low. Good job.
    Best,
    -------------------------------------------
    David Andersen
    Los Angeles CA
    310-391-4360
    -------------------------------------------








  • 30.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2013 10:37
    "Voicing" a chord, as it was called when I learned it early on, there are only two options.  The note you want to bring out must travel with higher velocity to be louder (can't change the mass), so if you start all the notes at the same time then the louder note must hit the string first.  If you want the notes to sound simultaneously then the louder note must start last.  A refined and uniform touchweight between notes, including inertia, plus a precise regulation certainly helps to achieve that whichever way you do it. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 31.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2013 16:42
    "Voicing a chord" is one scenario, where a block chord is played and the top note is "brought out." Other scenarios are more complex, as for instance a multi-voice fugue where a melodic line (or possibly two or more) is made to stand out against other moving parts, some of which are played simultaneously by the same hand. Or complex rhythmic music where certain accented notes need to appear in relief, wherever they may be under the fingers. I certainly won't argue against the statement that the "note brought out" must have been accelerated to a higher velocity. But the devil is in the details of how this happens.

    It is certainly possible that, in an example for the sake of argument, four keys are depressed by fingers of the same hand, all starting at the same time, and one is accelerated more than the others during the decent of all four, resulting in a higher velocity impact and one which is slightly ahead of the others in time. It is also conceivable that the louder key is started later, though this doesn't seem very likely from the point of view of psychology and how we control our muscles with our minds. That would be a counterintuitive thing to do, and difficult to learn with the rapid synchronicity required. If I do that, I don't do it consciously. I also don't consciously accelerate the one key faster, but I can't say with certainty that I don't do it without knowing that is what I am doing.

    This is the sort of thing I have pondered a great deal, as I have both learned to do it well and wondered how I actually did it. It is not obvious. Maybe there are teachers who offer some mechanical advice as to how to accomplish this. Mine did not. They just told me to "bring out that note" and I had to figure out how for myself - and it took a long time to even begin to master. It was a matter of more or less random experimentation until the results seemed to be working, and then the body continued to repeat the successful combination.

    One of the mental breakthroughs I had was to think of it in inversion: I am not making one note louder than the rest, instead I am making the other notes softer. In my mental imaging, I play all with more or less "equal force and speed" but the notes that are to be softer are played with fingers that are less stiff. That technique of "less stiffness" is one that I use in making really soft passages work well: the finger "gives" when it reaches bottom, it does not "follow through" to the keybed. This has the effect of creating less keybed sound as well as a lighter blow, so the color of the notes is changed.

    So as I reason through this, I come to believe that the stiff finger(s) creates more impact noise on the keybed and holds the front of the key firmly in contact with the punching, while the other fingers give, possibly bouncing a bit. This is in keeping with high speed videography, where we see that even in extra fast passage work like rapid repetition of the same note there are delays of the depression of the key, where the finger is stopped by the key before overcoming its inertia and impelling it forward. That is to say, there are movements of the fingers and the keys that are so minute that we are unaware of them - the pianist is consciously impelling the finger downward against the key, but it isn't as smooth a move as the consciousness believes.

    It is clear that there is some degree of what I will call "whip effect" during hard blows. The key moves ahead of the hammer, and completes its motion before the hammer reaches the point of let off. The shank has flexed (maybe not the WNG carbon fiber tube) as well as the key, and that flex reverses, as we can see in high speed. I can't say that I actually "know" that a finger that is stiffened more than another will hold a flexed key against the keybed, resulting in the key's flex "whipping" its hammer to a higher velocity than one where the key's front isn't held firmly, but it seems at least to be a reasonable hypothesis. And it is certainly in line with what I feel with my fingers, as the "note brought out" finger feels the extra keybed impact of a hard blow where I am trying to maximize keybed noise for percussive effect. And the other fingers feel more like they are playing the loose technique that tries to minimize percussiveness.

    It might be possible to study this using high speed videography, and maybe also using the electronics of Disklavier and other systems with that kind of input/output. If you could time when each key started motion, when it bottomed, and when each hammer started and struck its string, you could work backwards to how it was done. I can't say I trust the couple studies I have read about the topic. They seem somewhat less than precise in methodology.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 32.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2013 23:10
    Very interesting and a bit of a sidebar to this discussion.  The teachers I had said the same sort of thing (just bring it out) and I found that thinking of it as a bit more weight bearing on those notes that needed to be brought out from the arm through the fingers helped to accomplish the goal.  But I did find that the notes to be brought out could either lead or follow and that the effect of bringing out those notes was similar.  That included voicing chords or bringing out inner voices in, say, a fugue or a Brahms intermezzo, for example.  I am not nearly the pianist you are but did a fair amount of work at one time.  Differential relaxation techniques between the fingers seems to help, much like you describe keeping one finger more rigid.  For the fingers in the middle of the hand a rising wrist helps, for the outer fingers a rolling wrist is better.  That is in line with more weight bearing.  I always found it a fine line between too much differential relaxation and the subordinate notes being "late" and just late enough to be subordinate but not so late as to remove the synchronicity, as it were.  But we digress.

    As previously stated, uniform touchweight dynamics, friction, inertia, etc, make it much easier.  Interestingly, I find that a higher level of inertia sometimes makes this particular task easier as you can feel the weight and resistance of the key for longer.  Not that that would trump all other lower inertia considerations but it is an observation I've had. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 33.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2013 12:58
    Yes, certainly this notion of how an action may work in certain circumstances in real life is a side issue to some extent, but it is intended to move thinking out of the box of pure geometry, and to consider other factors. The speculation about pretty minute "changes in the amount of ratio change during a keystroke" due to factors like the angle of the capstan may be worthwhile, but it may also be a detail that simply disappears in real life playing. We need to realize that we don't have nearly enough data at a high enough level of resolution to come to solid conclusions - which doesn't mean we shouldn't speculate, but with a good pinch of salt when it comes to being doctrinaire, to believing our own conclusions.

    No question but consistency is king, in virtually every factor, regardless of choices made. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 34.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-21-2013 22:09
    Necessary to consider in this regard that a pianist is frequently called upon to do everything in his or her power to make the piano do things it is not designed to do. It could be compared to creating a typewriter for thumbs. Take for example, the Pathétique, or Beethoven Sonata #8 op13, one of the most famous moments in Western music. The IMSLP website under this entry contains 9 different transcriptions of the adagio cantabile section of the piece, at least 5 with piano accompaniment, certainly not an exhaustive list. The instruments all chosen with acc. are sustaining instruments, unlike the piano, which is a non-sustaining instrument, much as voicing and manufacturing has been directed toward mollifying this fact. This is, to a great extent, not piano music, much as Beethoven wanted it to be, and it is not surprising in engineering the piano since that research and design has developed an instrument with much greater sustain in large part because of this very movement in the Pathétique. Time may have stopped for a moment when he penned it. Our work can only go so far to modify the fortepiano that it enables the pianist to make the piano do something it is not supposed to do for the sake of such compositions. As those convinced redesigning the piano by doing things such as shifting the capstan to accomodate a modified shank or not, correct action geometry, or precise calculations of hammer weight based on any number of factors, will significantly improve the assessment made of the piano by the pianist, we must not forget that the touch required for making the piano not do things a piano is supposed to do is largely determined by the pianist, not us. Assisting the pianist in the effort requires not that we voice or adjust touchweight to help them play vertically, but horizontally. This requires: 1)Tension and release 2)Breathing 3)Phrasing Bringing out a melody is never to be thought of as a comparison between the sound produced in a chord with the sound of another note or notes in a chord, but in comparison with both the previous and successive notes in the melody, or theme, somewhat independently of the chord, Alberti bass, Thalberg technique, pedaling, comping, stride figure, or whatever else the piano is doing at the time. Perhaps this might be less the case when the primary theme is integrated with a secondary one, but still holds true. This depends on the keyboardist, not us. The theme of the adagio cantabile in the Pathétique is so uncharacteristic of what a piano is supposed to do that it has been transcribed for sustaining instruments at least half a dozen times. The pianist, and to an extent, the piano, ergo, us, manages such passages by understanding them horizontally, and moderating by voicing and touch adjustment not in comparison to the chord, but the notes preceding and following in the theme. This involves tricks like meeting the volume of the previous note on a piano as a non-sustaining instrument with the following, which is softer to a certain degree than when the previous note was initially struck, even during a crescendo, or building tension in a phrase. Such is not the case with accompanying notes to an extent; rubato as well should be expressed in the theme most of all, not the accompanying notes. Voicing and touch is to most of all create balance in this sort of horizontal phrasing not so much in a vertical thought process, a musical type of illiteracy; the letters of the chord must become words, and the words of the chord must become more than prose, but a sentence in a poem, creating a musical phrase. Sonata form is to tell a story, not teach the alphabet. On the other hand, with present trends and attitudes toward Steinwanization of institutions and stages, something it should be observed, which perhaps the most prestigious conservatory in the country, Julliard, has, albeit timidly, as marked on this social media site, moved away from, not toward, piano technology and pedagogy is to some extent vulnerable to a standardization that is in the end destructive to the future of the piano. Only in the very recent past, i.e., post Franz Mohr, though his son runs the factory and he is far from forgotten, have some associated with Steinway attempted to standardize Steinway itself, that in the end for years to come will nevertheless always pride itself as a multi-dimensional product. Moreover, the PTG will never abandon a legacy as an organization, that far beyond the various characteristics and potential of individual Steinways, appreciates the sundry products of manufacturers throughout the world. As Allan Gilreath, PTG President emeritus aptly observed, "Fortunately, all pianos don't sound the same. There are numerous ways of achieving the desired sound or touch, and even the concept of the desired sound varies dramatically... Playing on varied brands and models gives a pianist the opportunity to experiment with different ways of musical expression. Even beyond that, individual instruments, thankfully, have different characters..." PTG Journal Nov 2010 p. 6 Yet recently I've come across piano technicians arbitrating over a half a dozen American D's that all sound and feel the same as possible despite different individual characteristics and locations. Hopefully the quest for a perfect touch has not derogated itself to such a homogeneous affair. Having the good fortune of a pedagogy including 4 keyboardists not featured as Steinway artists, the one, a student of the late Earl Wilde, a Baldwin artist, who had a Baldwin in his home, another, primarily an organist, another, though adept at the piano, primarily a composer and church organist, and the last, one who preferred Baldwin with two in his studio, it is of great concern that tutelage has moved generally, not particularly, in the direction of a standardization that is altogether foolhardy, even when considering isolated manufacturers. I'll never forget when complaining about not being able to get to a grand in the practice rooms the first of these scolded me when I resisted practicing on an upright. "You need to be ready to play anything," he chided, and it is sad that so many studying today are not being prepared to. Studying organ helped me immensely to understand the difference between a sustaining and a non-sustaining instrument. This requires humility, the humility of knowing you cannot travel with your instrument, of not having the privilege that a Keith Jarret has, of flying to South America and refusing to play because he did not like the piano. To tailor our work to make every piano identical as possible is not what the piano is designed to do-though acknowledged here, not everything we do is centered around making a piano do what it is designed to do, in fact it is otherwise-pedagogy that directs the student to expect every keyboard to do the same thing is career suicide. Just ask Brian Eno, a man who claims not even to be a keyboardist, with a versatility that has made him one of the most successful of our age. Even Dick Hyman experimented, though not achieving great success, with the Moog synth. The you tube famous like Cory Henry are not even trained in the conservatory, and unfortunately, play more keyboards than many trained there are able to, with great success. Tori Amos is writing some great edgier rock stuff for harpsichord, Nora Jones is traveling with a Spinet. Period instrument specialist David Breitman is the one getting nominated for Grammy awards. It takes great dedication, commitment, and humility to devote oneself to perfecting the touch of the piano. But it also takes humility to recognize the limitations of this isolated task. ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 35.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2013 09:20
    Hi Mario,

    The overall (composite) ratio change--key motion to hammer motion--is clearly decreasing as shown by your graph and Nick's analysis.  My observation was confined to the ratio change along the balance rail - wippen center line (aka, "magic line") where the ratio apparently increases throughout the stroke.  I'll post more on this today as I have time.

    PS:  Kudos on your book.  It's a remarkable and valuable resource!
    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 36.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2013 14:17
    At essence, this is a conversation of tolerances. Regarding "the magic line" or what I much prefer to refer as a "line of convergence," we all agree that the least amount of sliding between two levers of differing radii will occur when the contact point intersects a line between their two centers midway through their paths of travel. As John cites in his example, the difference between a line of convergence at the half way point versus either end of the spectrum may only be 9-10 mils; however, the change in leverage becomes a multiplier for the overall ratio. Then when you consider that we are dealing with a contact point that is greater than a pencil point and will only increase further still with wear, I believe we may have a situation where there is a noticible difference in the friction. Again, it may be a question of tolerances.

    From a practical standpoint, defining the line of convergence makes the trigonometry possible when designing a new keyboard or even analyzing or altering an existing one. In this case, why wouldn't you choose to incorporate this principle. I wouldn't obsess over it, but again I ask, what are the tolerances? On paper, I still typically draft to four decimal places, but in reality how close can I even drill a straight capstan line. Personally I try to aim +/- .5mm, but I've typically heard from keyboard makers that +/- 1mm is more like it! That's an aggregate of 2!!!

    The important thing to pull away from this thread is how these protocols ultimately affect the leverage and the regulation. This is why it's so important to model your action each time you set out to do a rebuild. I took John and Darrell's class in Seattle. It was their first time out and I didn't quite get the way the system works, but I was certainly intrigued. Now I'm trying to get Chris Brown to give me a demo as it looks like a nice system to add to the arsenal. Even still, I don't expect that I would abandon proper lines of convergence, upweight or for that mattter defined strike and front weight curves appropriately derived from the action's leverage, which has proven to me time and again to assure an even playing action. Great thread, folks!


    -------------------------------------------
    Jude Reveley, RPT
    President
    Absolute Piano Restoration, Inc.
    Lowell, Massachusetts
    978-323-4545
    www.absolute-piano.com

    -------------------------------------------








  • 37.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2013 17:40
    I didn't mean to imply that I think convergence, or the "magic line," has no importance. I just wanted to put it into perspective as a relatively minor consideration, especially within the fairly small parameters we are likely to be dealing in. The question raised had to do with Rhodes and Fandrich essentially ignoring convergence in making a decision to move a capstan line as part of a particular project, in which the existing parts were retained. The effect of the additional friction from moving a few mm away from the ideal geometry was essentially insignificant in that context, and changing all the wippen heel thicknesses to compensate would have been prohibitively expensive for the minor improvement.

    If you are starting from scratch, it makes sense to design so that you hit that geometry to the extent possible, likely by choosing wippen heel thickness to fit the other variables - not too hard to do when selecting new parts from those available today. But to put it in perspective, I think it is a good idea to realize how much more of an effect the deviance of the knuckle/rep/jack from convergence has compared to any possible, probably minor deviation of capstan/wippen cushion. The capstan/wippen interface is pretty minor in the big scheme of things, especially compared to ratio, and even more especially compared to hammer mass and its relationship to ratio.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 38.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-10-2013 18:11
    Isn't the magic line on a grand really magic because it reconciles incongruent ratios between shank and key lengths?
    Most manufacturers today design pianos, e.g., Steinway, the S and the D, with next to identical top actions, i.e., what I prefer to call a stack. So how do you reconcile that identical shank length with disparate key lengths? The magic line.
    Our responsibility is almost, merely, cosmetic. Though not knuckles and capstans, we just want a key height, or balance rail regulation, that is closest to the fallboard without touching it, and still appropriately concealing the bottom of the key with the key slip; a key dip not obstructed by the key slip.
    Is not the magic line a method that virtually all piano manufacturers agreed within which this can be achieved, more than an absolute standard for designing a piano to accomodate an action?

    -------------------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    -------------------------------------------





  • 39.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2013 21:24

    I read you loud and clear, Fred; and I've certainly moved many a capstan line in the manner described. What I've learned is that without compensating for the move, the ratio changes as do the regulation specs. Perhaps this will be a benefit, but it's certainly something we should be aware of lest we find ourselves in a scenario of deep dip and no after-touch. Lines of convergence become an invaluable component for determining where to compensate to maintain a specific ratio. 

    I'm interested in your thoughts about the line of convergence for the balancier/knuckle as I've never really considered this. Are you considering an alternative or suggesting that what we have by tradition should be improved. I'm thinking that the short implied lever from the contact point of the jack'knuckle to shank center is too short to make a difference? Although, the knuckle is potentially one of the biggest problem areas of friction and simultaneously one of the components we most associate with the" feel" of the piano. 

    Benjamin hints at the idea of maintaining a ratio where the comparable lever arms are of differing lengths. This is an area of particular interest to me as the main difference would be in their inertia, stiffness may also be a factor. I'm curious as to whether Rhodes/Fandrich program might shed some light on this.

    -------------------------------------------
    Jude Reveley, RPT
    President
    Absolute Piano Restoration, Inc.
    Lowell, Massachusetts
    978-323-4545
    www.absolute-piano.com

    -------------------------------------------








  • 40.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 01:48
    Of course they change. Why would you move the capstan if you wanted to maintain the same ratio? ------------------------------------------- David Love RPT www.davidlovepianos.com davidlovepianos@comcast.net 415 407 8320 -------------------------------------------


  • 41.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 22:10
    >Of course they change. Why would you move the capstan if you wanted to maintain the same ratio? 

    >David Love RPT 


    I would do so to affect the touchweight without altering the regulation specs, namely aftertouch. 

    Jude Reveley, RPT
    President
    Absolute Piano Restoration, Inc.
    Lowell, Massachusetts
    978-323-4545
    www.absolute-piano.com

    -------------------------------------------






  • 42.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 23:12
    Jude: "I would do so to affect the touchweight without altering the regulation specs, namely aftertouch."

    Can't be done. Moving the capstan will affect touchweight because it affects ratio, and therefore it will alter regulation specs. There is no way around that unless you change some other lever arm relationship to compensate, in which case you end up with the ratio you began with AND the original touchweight.

    Regulation specs are tied to action ratio (that is, the relationship between hammer up and key down are tied to ratio - you can increase both, or decrease both in tandem). Moving the capstan changes the ratio.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 43.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2013 00:28
    > Moving the capstan will affect touchweight because it affects ratio, and therefore it will alter regulation specs. There is no way around >that unless you change some other lever arm relationship to compensate, in which case you end up with the ratio you began with AND >the original touchweight.

    >Fred Sturm


    Precisely, you change some other lever arm or arms. I contend that while you may maintain a specific distance ratio, thereby maintaining regulation specs which are based on units of distance, the interplay between the individual levers within the whole system affects the touchweight ratio differently. Obviously, applied mechanics would contradict this but only in a vacuum. The discrepency may have something do to do with changes to inertia, friction and stiffness (via a change in the span of the lever arms). Perhaps the Rhodes/Fandrich calculator may shed some light on this?  David Stanwood has described this difference as a "result of gravitational vectors." 
    -------------------------------------------
    Jude Reveley, RPT
    President
    Absolute Piano Restoration, Inc.
    Lowell, Massachusetts
    978-323-4545
    www.absolute-piano.com

    -------------------------------------------








  • 44.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2013 14:17
    Jude,
    OK, so you are saying the feel and function of the action will be different, even with the same overall ratio. That is more or less what David Stanwood was saying in the post that started this thread. I doubt the "touchweight" is different, though, in the commonly understood meaning of that term (generally DW, UW, BW and suchlike). Although you are using the term "touchweight ratio," so perhaps you are talking about the touchweight changing during the keystroke. Is that what you are saying? I guess I would refer to that more in terms of the ratio changing during the keystroke, but of course the two are intermingled in terms of the effect on touch.

    In any case, I would surmise that the change in ratio during the keystroke caused by the lack of convergence of the knuckle/rep/jack interface would be far more important to feel and function than capstan/wippen, possibly so much so that some kind of finesse to capstan/wippen in order to create some kind of effect would, in actual playing, be undetectable. That's a speculation, not a firm opinion. The big effects seem to be in hammer mass and knuckle placement and size, where tiny changes are magnified.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 45.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 13:31
    Jude,
    The line of convergence issue in and of itself has very little influence on regulation, probably insignificant within the parameters we are likely to be talking about. It does have an effect on friction, as the farther from convergence you get, the more rubbing there will be. This is not likely to be large enough to notice within the total picture of touch. But the move of the capstan has a definite affect on regulation, because it changes two lever arms, hence the overall action ratio. It isn't the change in convergence that is causing the change in regulation, it is the physical movement of the capstan to another place along the key lever, and to another contact point on the wippen lever. 

    The point I have been trying to make is that the convergence effect of a capstan move is essentially insignificant compared to the leverage effect, and can usually be ignored (as long as you are physically contacting the wippen cushion in a practical way). The practical limits of how far we might move a capstan are such that we won't make enough frictional difference (due to leaving the "magic line") to worry about. 

    Of course, if you are installing new parts, you should pay attention to convergence and come as close as practical for whatever setup you design. Less friction = less wear = less regulation change, etc.

    With respect to the knuckle/rep/jack relationship, Ron Overs' design puts that on the line of convergence, by changing the geometry of the wippen. That is the main feature of his design, the driving force behind it. The traditional design has that interface far below the line. It works just fine, though it has more friction than a design where the interface is like Ron Overs'. Here is a link to a drawing of the Overs action, showing the lines of convergence. Note that he has the jack tender designed for no friction as well - it simply rolls on the let off button.

    BTW, Ron's design also has a tilted capstan, the other direction from the old Steinway et al. As he showed with CAD drawings at a class I attended, the Steinway tilt actually creates more friction, while his creates less.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 46.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 22:49

    >Jude,
    >The line of convergence issue in and of itself has very little influence on regulation, probably insignificant within the parameters we are >likely to be talking about. It does have an effect on friction, as the farther from convergence you get, the more rubbing there will be. This >is not likely to be large enough to notice within the total picture of touch. But the move of the capstan has a definite affect on regulation, >because it changes two lever arms, hence the overall action ratio. It isn't the change in convergence that is causing the change in >regulation, it is the physical movement of the capstan to another place along the key lever, and to another contact point on the wippen >lever. 

    >The point I have been trying to make is that the convergence effect of a capstan move is essentially insignificant compared to the >leverage effect, and can usually be ignored (as long as you are physically contacting the wippen cushion in a practical way). The >practical limits of how far we might move a capstan are such that we won't make enough frictional difference (due to leaving the "magic >line") to worry about. 

    >.Fred Sturm



    Agreed. And I will add that once the capstan is moved you can accept the affect it will have on both the ratio and the regulation; or you can alter the other arms within the leverage chain in such a way as to maintain the ratio and the regulation. And yes, the driving force is certainly hammer mass. My point is not to emphasize one issue "in and of itself "over any other issue, but to reconcile all of it in order to get a sense of the dynamic touch (definitely a work in progress so while we may try to rescue the discussion from the anal abyss, the exercises will continue, ok Jim?). ;) So far I find nothing contradictory in this discussion, though we may be coming at it from varying frames of reference. A line of convergence will exist at some point between the contacting profiles of the key and rep, rep and shank, and it is not related to the mechanical advantage of the system. In fact, we know that the ratio is in fact changing as we progress through actuation of the the action mechanism and this is partially a result of the changing lever arms as they slide across one another.
    -------------------------------------------
    Jude Reveley, RPT
    President
    Absolute Piano Restoration, Inc.
    Lowell, Massachusetts
    978-323-4545
    www.absolute-piano.com

    -------------------------------------------










  • 47.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 16:42
    Regarding forces in the piano action:
    A simple static analysis of action geometry gives us an idea of the contact forces.  If 1 kg force (a fff blow) is applied to the key front, the capstan-heel will see 2.0 kg force, and the jack-knuckle will see 1.38 kg.

    The 1.38 kg force on the knuckle is split between (reacted by) the force on the hammer mass and the force on the birdseye.  This force split is in the ratio of the rose-wood-to-birdseye (16.5 mm) to rosewood-to molding-center-line (110.5 mm), and the force on the hammer center will be 1.2 kg. 

    Now comes the interesting part:  Assuming a friction coefficient of 0.2 in the hammer center bushing, we have a friction force of 0.2 x 1.2 = 0.24 kg, or 240 grams.  This force is acting on the radius of the center pin and creates a moment of 154 gm-mm. That friction will be perceived on the hammer flange at the flange screw hole position (23 mm) as 6.7 grams force.  This is roughly the same friction level we establish with typical pinning to produce 4-7 swings. 

    Some conclusions:
    1)  Contact force at the knuckle is about 70% of the force at the capstan.
    2)  With a 1 kg blow at the key, the forces on the hammer center bushing contribute only 7 grams of friction (at the flange screw hole).  This minuscule additional friction will not be perceived at the key front -- especially when the force delivered by the pianist's finger is 1 kg!
    3) The dominant perceived friction in a piano action is produced by the scuffing (about 12 degrees of rotation) of the knuckle on the jack tip during the power stroke. This friction is most evident during ppp play, and establishes the very desirable feel of the traditional piano action.

    One other friction source should be mentioned:  The side loading of the keys against the front-rail and balance rail pins during agitato or otherwise demanding passagecan produce very noticeable high friction levels if the pins are not smooth and the bushings lack lubrication.  This friction is very deleterious to a fine touch.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------


  • 48.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-11-2013 21:23
    The discussion of the importance or relative unimportance, of the half-stroke line, in regards to the actual feel of an modified action, brings front and center, for me, something I really appreciate about the Fandrich/Rhodes work. That is...

    The analytic legacy we have had over the last 20 years or so, regarding the ability to analyze existing actions on the bench,  although providing a very welcome light on a previously dark subject, has also had the tendency to drive the action analysis exercise right up the the edge of the anal abyss and beyond...ie, we have been instructed in fine action work, to drive the exercise to the point where great amounts of time are expended to little or imagined benefit...at least in my opinion. This mainly because the 800lb  gorilla in the room has not been given proper attention...the gorilla being hammer mass. We are presented with strike weight and hammer weight curves, but within the existing protocols, these curves have not specifically related how changes in hammer mass, leverage, and regulation specs alter  the dynamic, rather than static touch of an action...at least in my experience.  
     
    Having called out and quantified something that should be "duh" science, ie that hammer mass is the driving force to be reckoned with in the dynamic feel of an action, not the only factor, but a driving factor which cannot be ignored, they've offered a way to quantify how changes in hammer mass together with leverage adjustments  and target regulation specs are reflected in the dynamic touch of an action. For this my ears are wide open..though I'm still in the confirming and challenging their assumptions phase, cautiously testing it against my own experience.

    Much in their analysis I find myself immediately attracted to, and some of it, particularly the "European" assumptions used in the weigh-off, and quantifying of aftertouch, I find foreign.  This "foreign" aspect is something I am in the process of running though my own personal assumption proving machine. Bob Hull asked for users to review the calculator. Though I am using the calculator, as I am still  testing their assumptions against my assumptions, I cannot reflect on how the calculator works when used as directed<G>. But, from what I've seen on the couple of actions I've played with this on, I'm going to give their "foreign" European assumptions a fair shot according to the directions.

    Jim Ialeggio

    ps, if you are using WNG shanks, talk to John about how to enter the shank dimensions, because the calculator fields are setup for standard wood shanks.  

     
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------









  • 49.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2013 23:03
    Yes, precisely, "It's the hammers." A large part of the reason this hasn't been front and center obvious to everybody comes from us having had next to no control over the mass of the hammers provided to us - true for many, many years and only just beginning to change. It was a mystery what you were going to get, and you had to live with it. So people monkeyed with everything else, because hammer mass was a variable we couldn't control. Another part of this comes from the generally held assumption that "Heavier hammers are better." Why? "Because they give you more fundamental" seems to be the majority view, and more fundamental is held to be better. 

    One can argue about taste in tone production, but the bottom line is that if you assume the massive hammers prevalent today, you need to assume low action ratio. Period. The various crutches that try to allow us to have high mass and high-ish ratio at the same time (wippen assist springs, magnets of various sorts, etc.) don't work very well, or are quite limited in what they can accomplish. And low action ratio with high hammer mass will produce a certain range of touch and tone. That can work out well if the design is balanced well, but it limits us to a small range, tiny compared to what the piano was between, say, 1850 and 1950, when higher ratios and lower mass prevailed pretty much universally. Interesting, no? When was the heyday of the piano?

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 50.  Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-11-2013 21:59
    On 10/11/2013 8:21 PM, Jim Ialeggio wrote: > > This mainly because the 800lb > gorilla in the room has not been given proper attention...the gorilla > being hammer mass. During the frenzy a few years ago (among cauts, primarily) of key lead removal to reduce inertia, someone asked me (really) why removing leads and using sprung wippens wasn't a significant improvement in inertial resistance in feel. I said that it's because it didn't address the real problem. Which is?? Hammer mass. Why would hammer mass have so much more effect on inertia than key leads? How about a 5+/1 action ratio? Oh, yea, acceleration.... duh. Yea, duh, and duh it remained, and still largely duhs. > Having called out and quantified something that should be "duh" > science, ie that hammer mass is the driving force to be reckoned with > in the dynamic feel of an action, not the only factor, but a driving > factor which cannot be ignored, they've offered a way to quantify how > changes in hammer mass together with leverage adjustments and target > regulation specs are reflected in the dynamic touch of an action. "Only" factor or not, it's somewhat more than driving. Primary comes to mind. But I'm not an expert. Ron N


  • 51.  Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2013 07:55
    Jude writes: >>So far I find nothing contradictory in this discussion, though we may be coming at it from varying frames of reference. A line of convergence will exist at some point between the contacting profiles of the key and rep, rep and shank, and it is not related to the mechanical advantage of the system. In fact, we know that the ratio is in fact changing as we progress through actuation of the the action mechanism and this is partially a result of the changing lever arms as they slide across one another.<< Greetings, This is at the heart of the matter, imho . It seems that the mechanical advantage between capstan and whip pen is one thing that changes, and we can alter how it does this. The friction, particularly with aluminum oxide coating, can be ignored. What we can alter with various heel heights is at what point in the keystroke does convergence take place. If it is in the middle, we have the least sliding motion and the least friction. We also have a ratio that increases for the first half of the stroke and then begins to decrease as the convergence point is passed. When possible and convenient, I like to have the point of convergence occur nearer the moment the jack tender hits the button. This allows the action ratio's change to be a constantly increasing ratio up to the point of maximum velocity. In chassis set-ups, this is known as "gain geometry" and is often sought for its predictable aspect of increasing load or speed. I think it contributes to a better response when the AR doesn't begin decreasing half way through the stroke, which is counter to the normal expectation of increasing the hammer velocity from zero at rest to maximum at the moment of string contact, or, at least, let-off. I can't be dogmatic about this being an essential component of a hot action, my testing is more scattered memories of shop life experience than spread sheets and programs. The differences may be nothing more than the lost slippers of an angel, left on the head of a pin. But it does seem that I sense something more definite and responsive in actions that have the line arranged for gain. Regards, Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


  • 52.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-12-2013 09:53
    I have a question on the effect of changing of internal either levers or gear ratios while retaining a given set of regulation parameters.

    Given, for example, 44.5mm blow, 10mm dip,  1.5mm letoff, 1mm aftertouch, strike weight remains constant ...If these regulation parameters are retained precisely, while the internal gear ratios are changed but altered in a way that retains those regulation specs, does the overall inertia of the system change or remain unchanged?

    John Rhodes are you out there?...Is there any chance the math on this, either way, can be shown, specifically regarding inertia?

    Jim Ialeggio
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------







  • 53.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2013 10:28
    Is that true??? Are you saying that the placement of the convergence line can change a decreasing AR to an increasing one? ------------------------------------------- David Love RPT www.davidlovepianos.com davidlovepianos@comcast.net 415 407 8320 -------------------------------------------


  • 54.  Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-12-2013 11:20
    On 10/12/2013 9:27 AM, David Love wrote: > > Is that true??? > > Are you saying that the placement of the convergence line can change > a decreasing AR to an increasing one? Ed's right. It can, it's logical, and you can see it happening. With the convergence line at the jack letoff contact (or generally at the end of the stroke), all through the stroke you can see the capstan contact point on the wippen move back. Capstan rake and wippen heel angle could also be used to enhance this effect, I think. I haven't examined it, but it looks to me that with a back angled capstan and matching heel keeps convergence at approximately the same height throughout the stroke, while a forward angled capstan and matching heel makes for the most difference in convergence height throughout the stroke. This should make noticeable differences in feel with identically measured ratios, and I think ought to be looked into. As with trebuchets and compound bows, It's my opinion that an increasing action ratio is the way to go. Ron N


  • 55.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2013 17:44
    I can't say you are wrong or right on this.  I'll need to see it graphed out.  It runs counter to my understanding that the AR generally decreases through the stroke and with it the inertia, at least with any action operating under "normal" parameters.    But I'm perfectly open to having that notion correced if it's wrong. 

    However, this, along with Jude's comments, kind of brings us full circle to the original question which was, does it matter how we achieve the target AR, with capstan or knuckle move, in terms of  performance.  Anecdotal evidence cited by at least three people (Ed Foote, David Stanwood and me) suggest that it does.  One problem becomes pretty obvious.  There is no "the" AR.  "The" AR is changing through the stroke.  The distance ratio is simply an average of the AR through the entire stroke.  So whether the rate of change of the AR is the same in each case,  plus whether the full range of the AR in each system is the same still needs to be addressed.  If it was already, I missed it.  Like Fred, I have a hard time understanding (this is in response to Jude's posts) how you can  make an adjustment to the AR that impacts weight but not regulation. 

    The only logical explanation to me is that the issue is confounded by the dynamics of the system.  When we see, for example, a graph of the changing AR and the accompanying changing inertia curve we are using a static model, or so it seems.  The AR is calculated at each point in the key stroke and then the accompanying inertia is assigned based on the changing AR at each point.  However, what doesn't seem to be accounted for in this is the fact that it is the initiation of the key stroke which will require the most force to overcome inertia, when the bodies to be moved are at rest.  Once they start moving, then the calculations need to be based on keeping the various masses (hammer mostly) moving, not initiating movement.  Like pushing the piano across the stage, the force to get it moving is the greatest, once it starts rolling the force required diminishes.  The piano mass has not changed.  In this respect, I would contend that the most important part of the key stroke with respect to inertia is the very beginning of the key stroke.  The inertia at the end of the stroke is virtually of no consequence and the the importance of the inertia in terms of feel is diminishing rapidly through the entire stroke.  At what rate and how important is that, I don't have an answer for. 

    If I'm mixing terms then I apologize but my point stands and hopefully the engineers can read through to my meaning.  Action ratios are most meaningful at the beginning of the stroke.  Whether the AR at the beginning of the stroke is always the same as the AR at the end of the stroke, depending on which configuration you use (capstan move or knuckle move), or whether the shape of the curve is the same (i.e.the rate of change especially at the beginning of the stroke) needs to be more carefully examined.  The average AR, which will determine the actual regulation specs because it is this average that determines the overall relationship between key travel and hammer travel through the entire stroke, may not reflect what is happening at either end of the key stroke, in particular the beginning.  This is something I'm still hoping to see graphed, but it is beyond my modeling at this point.

    With respect to Jude's comments, therefore, I would still contend that you cannot change the AR with respect to weight and not distance.  However, it seems possible (maybe) that the "average" AR might be the same yet the starting and ending AR might be different.  In other words, what is at play is not simply the AR taken as an average.  At least that's the question that lingers in my mind. 

    Difference in friction notwithstanding, btw.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 56.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2013 14:51
      |   view attached
    FROM NICK GRAVAGNE
     
    Original Message:
    Sent: 10-12-2013 17:43
    From: David Love
    Subject: Creating a Touch to Die For

    ...  One problem becomes pretty obvious.  There is no "the" AR.  "The" AR is changing through the stroke.  The distance ratio is simply an average of the AR through the entire stroke. 

    The distance ratio is uncompromisingly pegged to one and only one combo of some key dip (say, 4 mm) to its one and only partnership to hammer rise (say about 22 or 23 mm of rise). The DAR at this one and only point (per the example numbers) would then be 5.50 to 5.75, a seemingly dramatic difference, but based solely on the accuracy of measuring the 4 mm dip and the 22 or 23 mm of rise. An average AR for distance, say at half-blow (a bit vague in itself), is an idea we get from Dr. Pfeiffer and then repackaged via the Renner classes (Baldassin and Robinson) of many years ago now.

    But in any case, Dr. Pfeiffer's model for this was the Langer action which depicts convergence not only at the capstan and whippen but also at the knuckle and jack top. When half-blow occurs at the knuckle and jack top, a "second magic line" forms between the whip center and hammer flange center. Thus, the whippen output arm and the shank input arm fall on the same line, and segmenting this line is straight forward.

    Our actions do not come close to convergence at the knuckle and jack top; but as this sub-system closes in on convergence as far as it can the following takes place: the ratio of key input angular displacement to hammer shank output angular displacement slows down; the hammer rise to key dip ratio decreases, the overall speed ratio (same as what we call the action ratio) decreases, inertia values decrease, the mechanical advantage (MA) increases a bit (meaning that the overall leverages are able to "see" a heavier hammer later in the stroke). There is more, but that should suffice.  See attachment, which has factored in a hammer / shank inertia value but irrespective of whippen and key (with leads) inertia.

    .....

    The only logical explanation to me is that the issue is confounded by the dynamics of the system. 

    Yes, if we accept the phrase loosely.

    When we see, for example, a graph of the changing AR and the accompanying changing inertia curve we are using a static model, or so it seems.  The AR is calculated at each point in the key stroke and then the accompanying inertia is assigned based on the changing AR at each point. 

    But to see the "changing AR and the accompanying changing inertia curve" we are not using a static model; this is the view of the dynamic model (again, a bit loosely stated). That is to say, we have for all practical purposes differentiated the problem so as to find a specific point in the graph for some meaning, same as we would when viewing any acceleration curve for a vehicle, etc. What is not seen in the graph is the formula for each curve or its differentiation. These formulas will accept any input value and yield a one and only output.

    However, what doesn't seem to be accounted for in this is the fact that it is the initiation of the key stroke which will require the most force to overcome inertia, when the bodies to be moved are at rest.  Once they start moving, then the calculations need to be based on keeping the various masses (hammer mostly) moving, not initiating movement.  Like pushing the piano across the stage, the force to get it moving is the greatest, once it starts rolling the force required diminishes.  The piano mass has not changed.

    By this do you mean that the changing force vectors are desirable? From static to moving and to slowing? These can be worked out and also graphed and differentiated. I wonder how helpful they would be though. Accelerations would require a time factor in seconds.

     In this respect, I would contend that the most important part of the key stroke with respect to inertia is the very beginning of the key stroke.  The inertia at the end of the stroke is virtually of no consequence and the the importance of the inertia in terms of feel is diminishing rapidly through the entire stroke. 

    All data needs to be interpreted. This is your interpretation, and I think a good one. If you then choose to customize your hammer masses and AR setups to accommodate, then I think you are on solid ground. But an average could also be justified and supported. Though I don't wish to argue the case for that.

    If I'm mixing terms then I apologize but my point stands and hopefully the engineers can read through to my meaning.  Action ratios are most meaningful at the beginning of the stroke.  Whether the AR at the beginning of the stroke is always the same as the AR at the end of the stroke, depending on which configuration you use (capstan move or knuckle move), or whether the shape of the curve is the same (i.e.the rate of change especially at the beginning of the stroke) needs to be more carefully examined. 

    Yes, "rate of change" is exactly the idea. Action ratios may be more meaningful at the beginning of the stroke, but in the larger world of machinery we would be intent to know the ratio at the end (should it change) if we needed a brake or clutch at the output end. The rate of change of hammer rise and inertia slows down as the hammer approaches the string, i.e. as the upper whip-out arm and the shank_in arm approach a straight line (never to realized in most of our modern actions). We should use this fact accordingly in our analysis.

    The average AR, which will determine the actual regulation specs because it is this average that determines the overall relationship between key travel and hammer travel through the entire stroke, may not reflect what is happening at either end of the key stroke, in particular the beginning.  This is something I'm still hoping to see graphed, but it is beyond my modeling at this point.

    You wish to see a graph depicting the moment to moment change in dip to hammer rise?

    Again, the "average" idea makes most sense per half-stoke and per Pfeiffer and a Langer type action but not so much for us working on Steinways. For distance AR (DAR for me) I prefer to know the theoretical dip required at the end of the stroke, i.e. at let-off (say 45 mm). This guides me in knowing the impact on dip that any AR changes would require. This end-of-dip value will vary some depending on the AR (which BTW is the action ratio). Hammers moving per higher ARs reach the point of let-off sooner than hammers moving per lower ARs. Our AR can be referred to in at least a few ways; as a transmission ratio, as a distance ratio, as a speed ratio, and although these relate to the masses being flung around in circles, the masses chosen to accelerate the system are completely independent of the radial geometry.  Which is why I have also wanted know what the theoretical maximum hammer mass should be that would balance, say, a 50 gram mass at the key end and irrespective of friction and the actual mass of all the components.

    ...
     






    Attachment(s)

    doc
    Chang ARs and Inertia3.doc   24 KB 1 version


  • 57.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2013 15:03
      |   view attached
    Hello -- sorry for the re-posting of the last post, which came through as confusing as to what my reply was to D. Love's post. THIS post uses italics to show my remarks.

    NG


    Attachment(s)



  • 58.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2013 17:42
    Nick:

    Thank you for posting these clarifications and the graph.   

    So then, in answer to one of the questions lingering in this discussion (there are many), your graph and explanations suggest that the Action Ratio is necessarily decreasing through the keystroke under most, if not all, circumstances?

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 59.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2013 18:11
    The AR decreases through the stroke as affected by the jack knuckle. But doesn't it increase through the stroke as affected by both the key at the balance rail ("rolling" on its bearing, whether a felt punching or the Steinway half round), and by the capstan "rolling" against the wippen cushion? That is at least how I have been picturing it, please correct me if I am wrong. If that is the case, then there is a degree of cancellation of effect between factors.

    So at least one question becomes,"How much is the deceleration of ratio at the knuckle, how much is the acceleration of ratio at balance rail and capstan, and how do they compare in magnitude?"

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 60.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2013 20:40
    I took Nick's meaning to be that while the key ratio may change direction with the capstan crossing the magic line and show a slight increase, that the magnitude of that change is very small and it is more than compensated for by the decreasing shank ratio.  Since the wippen output and the shank input intersection never crosses the magic line, and the magnitude which which the shank ratio is decreasing more than compensates for any possible increase in the key ratio, the trend is always that the AR decreases through the stroke.  He said it better but I think that's the idea. 

    At any rate (literally) the AR, hammer travel to key dip relationship and the intertia are all decreasing through the key stroke.

    At least as I read the analysis.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 61.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2013 11:40
    I just wanted to comment on David Love's assertion that "the most important part of the key stroke with respect to inertia is the very beginning of the key stroke.  The inertia at the end of the stroke is virtually of no consequence and the the importance of the inertia in terms of feel is diminishing rapidly through the entire stroke."

    A lot can happen at the end of the stroke, for example the most efficient way to play fast, quiet repetitions and trills is with the finger(s) remaining as close to the bottom of the key stroke as possible. On a well-regulated action, a mordent or short trill can be played without lifting the fingers almost at all, simply by rotating the hand. Obviously, inertia will play an important role in that technique, as will the regulation of let off, drop, backchecking, and spring strength.

    Some pianists play legato melodies by slowly pre-depressing each key half-ways. This increases control by reducing the finger's motion, but also in part because the finger experiences lower inertia at the bottom of the key. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    -------------------------------------------





  • 62.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2013 19:40
      |   view attached
    Ron, you make a valid point.  

    On my Renner action model, the capstan dome has about a 12 mm radius.  During the 6 mm power portion of the dip, the key rotates 1.5 degrees and the wippen rotates 2.7 degrees.  This 4.2 degree relative rotation moves the effective contact point between capstan and heel by about 0.9 mm.  This results in a 2% change in action ratio (e.g. 5.30:1 at rest becomes 5.41:1 at beginning of LO).

    I have attached a  photo which shows the shift.  In the left frame the key is at rest.  In the right frame the key is at start of letoff.  I wrapped the black thread around the contact interface and gently pulled it to the side to identify the point of highest contact pressure.  The thread technique can also be used to determine the effective contact point for angled capstans.  [And yes Ron, I was flossing my teeth when the idea occurred to me ;<)  ]. 

    A similar change (maybe 2%) takes place in the leverage ratio at the jack-knuckle interface over the power portion of the stroke.  But here, the change occurs early in the stroke.  Even more important is the initial (rest) ratio increases rapidly as the rest position of the shank is rotated downward -- as occurs with excessive blow distance.

    ==

    A big challenge in analysis of the piano action is the "squishy" nature of all the contact areas.  Probably the most ill-defined (from maker to maker) is the position of the balance-rail fulcrum.  With just the right pessimized geometry and action setup, that fulcrum can move from the aft edge of the BR punching to the forward edge during the key stroke.  Probably the move isn't quite that bad in practice due to compression of the felt punching, but it still gives one pause to think about it!

    The jack-knuckle geometry is also troubling, especially in actions with misshapen knuckles.  There's really no good way to model the effects of wear and compression, and direct measurements are obscured with noise.

    The capstan-heel interface -- as pointed out in this thread -- also has ambiguities.  A moved capstan which is not centered fore-aft on the heel cloth may see a different heel contact point than expected; and the move may not produce the desired results.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    -------------------------------------------








  • 63.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-12-2013 20:58
    >This 4.2 degree relative rotation moves the effective contact point between capstan and heel by about 0.9 mm.  This results in a 2% >change in action ratio (e.g. 5.30:1 at rest becomes 5.41:1 at beginning of LO).

    So was my interpretation earlier in this thread incorrect in thinking that by rotating the capstan from 16 to 3 degrees causing the rear portion of the capstan head to bear against a portion of the cushion closer to the wip center causing the AR  to rise and achieve aftertouch where little was present before?  Or is it because of the lift shifting further back on the key, as illustrated by the string placement.

    Either way you look at it, the point of lift is moving away from the balance rail, increasing AR slightly.

    With the capstans at an acute angle, the rear portion of the capstan head barely contacts the cushion at full dip and a decent after touch could only be achieved by either decreasing blow or increasing dip. By altering the capstan angle, those regulation parameters remain spec.

    Is it that an acute angle does not produce enough of a change of AR. It's easier to visualize/demonstrate the contact point shifting on the capstan head rather than the string mechanics.

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 64.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-14-2013 17:07
    So it appears that my original though was correct. The point of lift migrates back on the capstan head as the key is depressed and engages a point on the wippen cushion closer to the wippen center. This increases AR very slightly but is not noticed due to the momentum developed during the keystroke. Said another way, the point of lift is traversing slightly towards the back of the key.

    I just find it easier to visualize and explain the capstan head and cushion interface.
    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page

    --------Just before the thread "U" finally pulls free, the "U" isstraddling the area of highest contact pressure.  My impression is that this high-pressure spot is the point of effective contact.  [This agrees with my CAD simulation, and presumably with George's CAD model too.]

    In the left frame of the first-posted picture (rest), the threads are aligned with the center-line of the capstan.  In the right frame (6 mm of dip), the threads are straddling a different spot on the capstan dome:  They have shifted left of the capstan center line ... by about a millimeter.  
    >This 4.2 degree relative rotation moves the effective contact point between capstan and heel by about 0.9 mm.  This results in a 2% >change in action ratio (e.g. 5.30:1 at rest becomes 5.41:1 at beginning of LO).

    So was my interpretation earlier in this thread incorrect in thinking that by rotating the capstan from 16 to 3 degrees causing the rear portion of the capstan head to bear against a portion of the cushion closer to the wip center causing the AR  to rise and achieve aftertouch where little was present before?  Or is it because of the lift shifting further back on the key, as illustrated by the string placement.

    Either way you look at it, the point of lift is moving away from the balance rail, increasing AR slightly.

    With the capstans at an acute angle, the rear portion of the capstan head barely contacts the cushion at full dip and a decent after touch could only be achieved by either decreasing blow or increasing dip. By altering the capstan angle, those regulation parameters remain spec.

    Is it that an acute angle does not produce enough of a change of AR. It's easier to visualize/demonstrate the contact point shifting on the capstan head rather than the string mechanics.

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page







  • 65.  Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-12-2013 20:05
    On 10/12/2013 6:38 PM, John Rhodes wrote: > > With > just the right pessimized geometry and action setup, that fulcrum can > move from the aft edge of the BR punching to the forward edge during > the key stroke. Probably the move isn't quite that bad in practice > due to compression of the felt punching, but it still gives one pause > to think about it! Yes. I've pointed that out on list a couple of times, and that the half round dowel of the Steinway "accelerated" actions doesn't do that. People tend to picture it the other way around, with the ratio progression being more prominent on the half round. > The jack-knuckle geometry is also troubling, especially in actions > with misshapen knuckles. There's really no good way to model the > effects of wear and compression, and direct measurements are obscured > with noise. > > The capstan-heel interface -- as pointed out in this thread -- also > has ambiguities. A moved capstan which is not centered fore-aft on > the heel cloth may see a different heel contact point than expected; > and the move may not produce the desired results. All this is what makes ratio determination by moment arm measurements such a crap shoot. Ron N


  • 66.  Creating a Touch to Die For

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2013 09:55



  • 67.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-13-2013 18:25
    <I see the point of contact as being motionless at congruence, hence
    slowing down as it approaches. If the contact point reverses direction
    as it crosses the line, it must me slowing in its approach and
    accelerating as it departs, doesn't it?

    <Ed Foote RPT

    Wait a sec'... The description of the change of ratio as the capstan/heel reaches congruence is backwards, unless I'm looking at this upside-down. In the scenario Ed describes, yes the rate of change decreases and slows as the capstan/heel approaches  congruence. However, the change in ratio, which is what I think we are talking about here, from rest to congruence, decreases then increases after congruence. As the keystroke progresses from rest to letoff, looking at Johns thread index pic, the whip lower lever arm length increases, ie the contact moves away from the whip flange center. This decreases the whip's overall ratio, which decreases the overall action ratio. So it is not a steady gain as Ed describes.

    If I'm thinking about this correctly, that means there are 2 ratio decreases happening at the same time, ie variable ratio decreasing at the knuckle, and decreasing ratio at the whip lower lever arm. Delaying the congruence until letoff extends the amount of time the overall action ratio is declining.

    Do I have this upside down??

    Jim Ialeggio     



    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------







  • 68.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-13-2013 18:37
    My bad...I got it backwards...confirmed by the old carrot on the finger lever trick

    Jim Ialeggio

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------















  • 69.  RE:Creating a Touch to Die For

    Posted 10-13-2013 18:42
    Wait, I take it back...ratio does decrease...confirmed by the cucumber on the knife system.

    Jim Ialeggio

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------