Pianotech

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message------

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Geoff,

Scott Jones' PitchLock string couplers should solve the problem. I have used them many times. And, since they will change the "character" of the unison, you may want to install them on all the bichords for consistency.  They are just a bit of a pain to put on...but well worth having in your arsenal of voicing stuff.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Alexander,

I disagree. This can be a problem just as easily on a Mason & Hamlin CC 94.

As a consumer with a technician who blames poorly designed strings and proposes replacing bi-chord copper wound bass strings on any piano, spinet to concert grand, I would be reluctant to make such an investment, particularly on the less expensive brands.

There is something about a bichord that is just not as good as a trichord, whether or not the tone of the piano, vertical or grand, is galvanized by a copper wound bichord, or a plain wire string bichord. Somehow, when 3 strings in a unison note are vibrating, false beating seems to get phased out more easily than in a unison with 2 strings.

The best, most efficient and cost effective remedy I've found is to mute each string and tune them separately against the 5:4 partial, i.e., a major 3rd, as a frame of reference for both strings of the bichord.

I replace bass strings to fix things regularly. But those problems are as likely to appear on the monochord copper wound bass strings that don't get tuned to an identical tone. The life of all the string on a Steinway D many are claiming is 5 to 10 years. If replacing bass string improves the problem, it might not have anything to do with false beating in a bichord, but aging string.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

I should add that gang filing is more likely to lead to poor fitting of the hammer to the string in the typical bichord range of any piano, a method more likely to be used on the verticals. This can be a source of false beating on both bichords and trichords. This of course due to the sharper angle of hammers in the bichord section of the piano. 

It is important in the angled section of hammers, at the bichord area of the piano from the million dollar piano to the freebee, to use narrower strips of sandpaper to shape the hammer when gang filing, or abandon gang filing and do single hammer filing with the paddle in the bichord range of the piano, thus reducing the chance that hammers will strike the unisons irregularly, i.e., fail to strike both stings in the bichord at the same time. Irregularly shaped hammer shoulders can also cause this problem, more likely to develop from gang filing, paticularly in the angled section of hammers accomodating bichords. Not to mention that the spurned baby grand is scaled in such a way more likely to incur this kind of hammer abuse due to the angles required.

A chopstick voicing tool helps and efficiently can save time with the grands by needling the strikepoint at groove from the worse of the two strings without removing the action. I attached a file of mine. Thanks for the tool Dad...

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 04:51
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Alexander,

I disagree. This can be a problem just as easily on a Mason & Hamlin CC 94.

As a consumer with a technician who blames poorly designed strings and proposes replacing bi-chord copper wound bass strings on any piano, spinet to concert grand, I would be reluctant to make such an investment, particularly on the less expensive brands.

There is something about a bichord that is just not as good as a trichord, whether or not the tone of the piano, vertical or grand, is galvanized by a copper wound bichord, or a plain wire string bichord. Somehow, when 3 strings in a unison note are vibrating, false beating seems to get phased out more easily than in a unison with 2 strings.

The best, most efficient and cost effective remedy I've found is to mute each string and tune them separately against the 5:4 partial, i.e., a major 3rd, as a frame of reference for both strings of the bichord.

I replace bass strings to fix things regularly. But those problems are as likely to appear on the monochord copper wound bass strings that don't get tuned to an identical tone. The life of all the string on a Steinway D many are claiming is 5 to 10 years. If replacing bass string improves the problem, it might not have anything to do with false beating in a bichord, but aging string.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Hammer angle? Perhaps that could be contributing. The sometimes extreme hammer angle on bass strings causes it to strike each string in a bi-chord at a different point. It's possible that this could be generating different, and unwelcome, partials in either string that act against each other.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 07:59
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I should add that gang filing is more likely to lead to poor fitting of the hammer to the string in the typical bichord range of any piano, a method more likely to be used on the verticals. This can be a source of false beating on both bichords and trichords. This of course due to the sharper angle of hammers in the bichord section of the piano. 

It is important in the angled section of hammers, at the bichord area of the piano from the million dollar piano to the freebee, to use narrower strips of sandpaper to shape the hammer when gang filing, or abandon gang filing and do single hammer filing with the paddle in the bichord range of the piano, thus reducing the chance that hammers will strike the unisons irregularly, i.e., fail to strike both stings in the bichord at the same time. Irregularly shaped hammer shoulders can also cause this problem, more likely to develop from gang filing, paticularly in the angled section of hammers accomodating bichords. Not to mention that the spurned baby grand is scaled in such a way more likely to incur this kind of hammer abuse due to the angles required.

A chopstick voicing tool helps and efficiently can save time with the grands by needling the strikepoint at groove from the worse of the two strings without removing the action. I attached a file of mine. Thanks for the tool Dad...

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 04:51
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Alexander,

I disagree. This can be a problem just as easily on a Mason & Hamlin CC 94.

As a consumer with a technician who blames poorly designed strings and proposes replacing bi-chord copper wound bass strings on any piano, spinet to concert grand, I would be reluctant to make such an investment, particularly on the less expensive brands.

There is something about a bichord that is just not as good as a trichord, whether or not the tone of the piano, vertical or grand, is galvanized by a copper wound bichord, or a plain wire string bichord. Somehow, when 3 strings in a unison note are vibrating, false beating seems to get phased out more easily than in a unison with 2 strings.

The best, most efficient and cost effective remedy I've found is to mute each string and tune them separately against the 5:4 partial, i.e., a major 3rd, as a frame of reference for both strings of the bichord.

I replace bass strings to fix things regularly. But those problems are as likely to appear on the monochord copper wound bass strings that don't get tuned to an identical tone. The life of all the string on a Steinway D many are claiming is 5 to 10 years. If replacing bass string improves the problem, it might not have anything to do with false beating in a bichord, but aging string.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Geoff,

If I understand you both correctly, you are saying different things. What Benjamin is getting at is that gang filing in the bi-chord area of small pianos with hammer angles that don't match the angles of the strings is that doing so often results in poor hammer-to-string mating, not because the hammers are striking their respective strings at different points in their speaking lengths as you mentioned in your response.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 11:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Hammer angle? Perhaps that could be contributing. The sometimes extreme hammer angle on bass strings causes it to strike each string in a bi-chord at a different point. It's possible that this could be generating different, and unwelcome, partials in either string that act against each other.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 07:59
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I should add that gang filing is more likely to lead to poor fitting of the hammer to the string in the typical bichord range of any piano, a method more likely to be used on the verticals. This can be a source of false beating on both bichords and trichords. This of course due to the sharper angle of hammers in the bichord section of the piano. 

It is important in the angled section of hammers, at the bichord area of the piano from the million dollar piano to the freebee, to use narrower strips of sandpaper to shape the hammer when gang filing, or abandon gang filing and do single hammer filing with the paddle in the bichord range of the piano, thus reducing the chance that hammers will strike the unisons irregularly, i.e., fail to strike both stings in the bichord at the same time. Irregularly shaped hammer shoulders can also cause this problem, more likely to develop from gang filing, paticularly in the angled section of hammers accomodating bichords. Not to mention that the spurned baby grand is scaled in such a way more likely to incur this kind of hammer abuse due to the angles required.

A chopstick voicing tool helps and efficiently can save time with the grands by needling the strikepoint at groove from the worse of the two strings without removing the action. I attached a file of mine. Thanks for the tool Dad...

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 04:51
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Alexander,

I disagree. This can be a problem just as easily on a Mason & Hamlin CC 94.

As a consumer with a technician who blames poorly designed strings and proposes replacing bi-chord copper wound bass strings on any piano, spinet to concert grand, I would be reluctant to make such an investment, particularly on the less expensive brands.

There is something about a bichord that is just not as good as a trichord, whether or not the tone of the piano, vertical or grand, is galvanized by a copper wound bichord, or a plain wire string bichord. Somehow, when 3 strings in a unison note are vibrating, false beating seems to get phased out more easily than in a unison with 2 strings.

The best, most efficient and cost effective remedy I've found is to mute each string and tune them separately against the 5:4 partial, i.e., a major 3rd, as a frame of reference for both strings of the bichord.

I replace bass strings to fix things regularly. But those problems are as likely to appear on the monochord copper wound bass strings that don't get tuned to an identical tone. The life of all the string on a Steinway D many are claiming is 5 to 10 years. If replacing bass string improves the problem, it might not have anything to do with false beating in a bichord, but aging string.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Geoff asked for a remedy that did NOT involve replacement of strings. This request implies that the situation(s) encountered does not lend itself to replacement (a relatively long and involved process with no guarantee of success). 

In my experience, the PitchLock couplers are the best bang for the buck. Carry them in your kit...when you encounter a nasty bichord, pop on on, fiddle with it for a minute or two...if it improves it, great!...if it doesn't, take it off and move on.

I have found they can even have a positive effect in the NSL between the tuning pin and agraffe.

Experiment a little. 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 12:03
From: Alan Eder
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff,

If I understand you both correctly, you are saying different things. What Benjamin is getting at is that gang filing in the bi-chord area of small pianos with hammer angles that don't match the angles of the strings is that doing so often results in poor hammer-to-string mating, not because the hammers are striking their respective strings at different points in their speaking lengths as you mentioned in your response.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 11:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Hammer angle? Perhaps that could be contributing. The sometimes extreme hammer angle on bass strings causes it to strike each string in a bi-chord at a different point. It's possible that this could be generating different, and unwelcome, partials in either string that act against each other.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 07:59
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I should add that gang filing is more likely to lead to poor fitting of the hammer to the string in the typical bichord range of any piano, a method more likely to be used on the verticals. This can be a source of false beating on both bichords and trichords. This of course due to the sharper angle of hammers in the bichord section of the piano. 

It is important in the angled section of hammers, at the bichord area of the piano from the million dollar piano to the freebee, to use narrower strips of sandpaper to shape the hammer when gang filing, or abandon gang filing and do single hammer filing with the paddle in the bichord range of the piano, thus reducing the chance that hammers will strike the unisons irregularly, i.e., fail to strike both stings in the bichord at the same time. Irregularly shaped hammer shoulders can also cause this problem, more likely to develop from gang filing, paticularly in the angled section of hammers accomodating bichords. Not to mention that the spurned baby grand is scaled in such a way more likely to incur this kind of hammer abuse due to the angles required.

A chopstick voicing tool helps and efficiently can save time with the grands by needling the strikepoint at groove from the worse of the two strings without removing the action. I attached a file of mine. Thanks for the tool Dad...

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 04:51
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Alexander,

I disagree. This can be a problem just as easily on a Mason & Hamlin CC 94.

As a consumer with a technician who blames poorly designed strings and proposes replacing bi-chord copper wound bass strings on any piano, spinet to concert grand, I would be reluctant to make such an investment, particularly on the less expensive brands.

There is something about a bichord that is just not as good as a trichord, whether or not the tone of the piano, vertical or grand, is galvanized by a copper wound bichord, or a plain wire string bichord. Somehow, when 3 strings in a unison note are vibrating, false beating seems to get phased out more easily than in a unison with 2 strings.

The best, most efficient and cost effective remedy I've found is to mute each string and tune them separately against the 5:4 partial, i.e., a major 3rd, as a frame of reference for both strings of the bichord.

I replace bass strings to fix things regularly. But those problems are as likely to appear on the monochord copper wound bass strings that don't get tuned to an identical tone. The life of all the string on a Steinway D many are claiming is 5 to 10 years. If replacing bass string improves the problem, it might not have anything to do with false beating in a bichord, but aging string.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Peter --

Remedy, yes. But I also want to understand the problem. Once I better understand the possibilities of what might be going on I can make a better educated guess on what remedy to apply. And the PitchLock coupler may wind up being one of them in certain situations.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 12:40
From: Peter Grey
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff asked for a remedy that did NOT involve replacement of strings. This request implies that the situation(s) encountered does not lend itself to replacement (a relatively long and involved process with no guarantee of success). 

In my experience, the PitchLock couplers are the best bang for the buck. Carry them in your kit...when you encounter a nasty bichord, pop on on, fiddle with it for a minute or two...if it improves it, great!...if it doesn't, take it off and move on.

I have found they can even have a positive effect in the NSL between the tuning pin and agraffe.

Experiment a little. 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 12:03
From: Alan Eder
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff,

If I understand you both correctly, you are saying different things. What Benjamin is getting at is that gang filing in the bi-chord area of small pianos with hammer angles that don't match the angles of the strings is that doing so often results in poor hammer-to-string mating, not because the hammers are striking their respective strings at different points in their speaking lengths as you mentioned in your response.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 11:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Hammer angle? Perhaps that could be contributing. The sometimes extreme hammer angle on bass strings causes it to strike each string in a bi-chord at a different point. It's possible that this could be generating different, and unwelcome, partials in either string that act against each other.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 07:59
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I should add that gang filing is more likely to lead to poor fitting of the hammer to the string in the typical bichord range of any piano, a method more likely to be used on the verticals. This can be a source of false beating on both bichords and trichords. This of course due to the sharper angle of hammers in the bichord section of the piano. 

It is important in the angled section of hammers, at the bichord area of the piano from the million dollar piano to the freebee, to use narrower strips of sandpaper to shape the hammer when gang filing, or abandon gang filing and do single hammer filing with the paddle in the bichord range of the piano, thus reducing the chance that hammers will strike the unisons irregularly, i.e., fail to strike both stings in the bichord at the same time. Irregularly shaped hammer shoulders can also cause this problem, more likely to develop from gang filing, paticularly in the angled section of hammers accomodating bichords. Not to mention that the spurned baby grand is scaled in such a way more likely to incur this kind of hammer abuse due to the angles required.

A chopstick voicing tool helps and efficiently can save time with the grands by needling the strikepoint at groove from the worse of the two strings without removing the action. I attached a file of mine. Thanks for the tool Dad...

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 04:51
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Alexander,

I disagree. This can be a problem just as easily on a Mason & Hamlin CC 94.

As a consumer with a technician who blames poorly designed strings and proposes replacing bi-chord copper wound bass strings on any piano, spinet to concert grand, I would be reluctant to make such an investment, particularly on the less expensive brands.

There is something about a bichord that is just not as good as a trichord, whether or not the tone of the piano, vertical or grand, is galvanized by a copper wound bichord, or a plain wire string bichord. Somehow, when 3 strings in a unison note are vibrating, false beating seems to get phased out more easily than in a unison with 2 strings.

The best, most efficient and cost effective remedy I've found is to mute each string and tune them separately against the 5:4 partial, i.e., a major 3rd, as a frame of reference for both strings of the bichord.

I replace bass strings to fix things regularly. But those problems are as likely to appear on the monochord copper wound bass strings that don't get tuned to an identical tone. The life of all the string on a Steinway D many are claiming is 5 to 10 years. If replacing bass string improves the problem, it might not have anything to do with false beating in a bichord, but aging string.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Alan --

I understood the filing problem he described. It's just a comment on how to file hammers correctly. My comment was more an observational question. Does the fact that  (a properly filed) hammer in the bass section can frequently be striking the two strings in a bi-chord at different points on those two strings contribute to differences in the partials that the two strings generate? In smaller pianos, especially uprights, that angle can be quite severe, causing the individual strike points on the two strings to be quite different. Could that be a contributing factor?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 12:03
From: Alan Eder
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff,

If I understand you both correctly, you are saying different things. What Benjamin is getting at is that gang filing in the bi-chord area of small pianos with hammer angles that don't match the angles of the strings is that doing so often results in poor hammer-to-string mating, not because the hammers are striking their respective strings at different points in their speaking lengths as you mentioned in your response.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 11:31
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Hammer angle? Perhaps that could be contributing. The sometimes extreme hammer angle on bass strings causes it to strike each string in a bi-chord at a different point. It's possible that this could be generating different, and unwelcome, partials in either string that act against each other.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 07:59
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I should add that gang filing is more likely to lead to poor fitting of the hammer to the string in the typical bichord range of any piano, a method more likely to be used on the verticals. This can be a source of false beating on both bichords and trichords. This of course due to the sharper angle of hammers in the bichord section of the piano. 

It is important in the angled section of hammers, at the bichord area of the piano from the million dollar piano to the freebee, to use narrower strips of sandpaper to shape the hammer when gang filing, or abandon gang filing and do single hammer filing with the paddle in the bichord range of the piano, thus reducing the chance that hammers will strike the unisons irregularly, i.e., fail to strike both stings in the bichord at the same time. Irregularly shaped hammer shoulders can also cause this problem, more likely to develop from gang filing, paticularly in the angled section of hammers accomodating bichords. Not to mention that the spurned baby grand is scaled in such a way more likely to incur this kind of hammer abuse due to the angles required.

A chopstick voicing tool helps and efficiently can save time with the grands by needling the strikepoint at groove from the worse of the two strings without removing the action. I attached a file of mine. Thanks for the tool Dad...

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 04:51
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Alexander,

I disagree. This can be a problem just as easily on a Mason & Hamlin CC 94.

As a consumer with a technician who blames poorly designed strings and proposes replacing bi-chord copper wound bass strings on any piano, spinet to concert grand, I would be reluctant to make such an investment, particularly on the less expensive brands.

There is something about a bichord that is just not as good as a trichord, whether or not the tone of the piano, vertical or grand, is galvanized by a copper wound bichord, or a plain wire string bichord. Somehow, when 3 strings in a unison note are vibrating, false beating seems to get phased out more easily than in a unison with 2 strings.

The best, most efficient and cost effective remedy I've found is to mute each string and tune them separately against the 5:4 partial, i.e., a major 3rd, as a frame of reference for both strings of the bichord.

I replace bass strings to fix things regularly. But those problems are as likely to appear on the monochord copper wound bass strings that don't get tuned to an identical tone. The life of all the string on a Steinway D many are claiming is 5 to 10 years. If replacing bass string improves the problem, it might not have anything to do with false beating in a bichord, but aging string.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 01:56
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Either the strings themselves are badly mismatched (which happens a lot on entry-level pianos, i.e spinets, consoles, and small grands), or the bridge pins are either loose, or are not centered on the edge of the bridge where the string first makes contact with the bridge.  If none of these issues are the problem, it could be that the piano was designed with unequal speaking lengths. Some old piano makers did this on purpose to make the sound carry further into the back of a large auditorium or concert hall.  But if this is a small piano, such as a spinet, console or baby grand, it was just a cheaply made piano.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:17
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Bichord of different lengths. Worse on curved bridges.

Though not always a perfect solution, and it will (on rare occasions) get you in trouble, you can try giving he string a tug into the bridge.  It often works to reduce or eliminate annoying bass string tuning problems.

Just don't blame me if you leave finger prints or a weak string breaks.

The only problem I have ever had doing this was one string with a tie/splice broke at the splice.

It works on treble strings too.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Blaine --

Is what you are suggesting a way to, perhaps, equalize the string tension across the bridge from the speaking length to the rear duplex? If not, then I don't understand what you mean by tugging the string into the bridge. Do you lower the tension to do this?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 20:41
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Though not always a perfect solution, and it will (on rare occasions) get you in trouble, you can try giving he string a tug into the bridge.  It often works to reduce or eliminate annoying bass string tuning problems.

Just don't blame me if you leave finger prints or a weak string breaks.

The only problem I have ever had doing this was one string with a tie/splice broke at the splice.

It works on treble strings too.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I suspect that that is what is happening (tension across the bridge is equalized).

There seems to be much better results when the string drops in pitch a few beats, when seating or pulling on a string doesn't change the pitch much there is less benefit.

Try it, if it works for you use it.  If it doesn't don't.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 23:41
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Blaine --

Is what you are suggesting a way to, perhaps, equalize the string tension across the bridge from the speaking length to the rear duplex? If not, then I don't understand what you mean by tugging the string into the bridge. Do you lower the tension to do this?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-28-2017 20:41
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Though not always a perfect solution, and it will (on rare occasions) get you in trouble, you can try giving he string a tug into the bridge.  It often works to reduce or eliminate annoying bass string tuning problems.

Just don't blame me if you leave finger prints or a weak string breaks.

The only problem I have ever had doing this was one string with a tie/splice broke at the splice.

It works on treble strings too.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

There's really no solution but to remake the pair since it's hard to tell which one is off, though usually you can hear a difference between the two when sounded individually.  I've had to replace bichords periodically and I'm about to replace a set of strings on a lesser piano where the problem is on 6-8 pairs.  The problem rarely happens with the custom bass string makers that I use (in fact, I can't remember a time), that is typically JD Grandt or Gregor Heller.  Both do excellent work.  I can't speak for other makers as I have had some issues. I won't mention names. But I've had it occur on very high end pianos and have recently had to replace bichords on two new Hamburg Steinways, an A and a B.  The company was very cooperative in sending me the replacement strings, btw.  Also it doesn't seem to be an issue that is related to curved bridges as I've had the problem occur on bridges cut for equal speaking lengths and can't recall a problem (as I mentioned) on a custom set even with curved bridges.  

I've not figured out a way to address the problem other than replacement.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff, what kind of piano is this?  Vertical, grand, what size, what brand?

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2017 12:32
From: David Love
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

There's really no solution but to remake the pair since it's hard to tell which one is off, though usually you can hear a difference between the two when sounded individually.  I've had to replace bichords periodically and I'm about to replace a set of strings on a lesser piano where the problem is on 6-8 pairs.  The problem rarely happens with the custom bass string makers that I use (in fact, I can't remember a time), that is typically JD Grandt or Gregor Heller.  Both do excellent work.  I can't speak for other makers as I have had some issues. I won't mention names. But I've had it occur on very high end pianos and have recently had to replace bichords on two new Hamburg Steinways, an A and a B.  The company was very cooperative in sending me the replacement strings, btw.  Also it doesn't seem to be an issue that is related to curved bridges as I've had the problem occur on bridges cut for equal speaking lengths and can't recall a problem (as I mentioned) on a custom set even with curved bridges.  

I've not figured out a way to address the problem other than replacement.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Alex --

For this discussion it doesn't matter. I notice it more frequently on smaller uprights but I also notice it to a somewhat lesser extent on decent sized grands. Sometimes new. Sometimes not new.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 16:07
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff, what kind of piano is this?  Vertical, grand, what size, what brand?

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2017 12:32
From: David Love
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

There's really no solution but to remake the pair since it's hard to tell which one is off, though usually you can hear a difference between the two when sounded individually.  I've had to replace bichords periodically and I'm about to replace a set of strings on a lesser piano where the problem is on 6-8 pairs.  The problem rarely happens with the custom bass string makers that I use (in fact, I can't remember a time), that is typically JD Grandt or Gregor Heller.  Both do excellent work.  I can't speak for other makers as I have had some issues. I won't mention names. But I've had it occur on very high end pianos and have recently had to replace bichords on two new Hamburg Steinways, an A and a B.  The company was very cooperative in sending me the replacement strings, btw.  Also it doesn't seem to be an issue that is related to curved bridges as I've had the problem occur on bridges cut for equal speaking lengths and can't recall a problem (as I mentioned) on a custom set even with curved bridges.  

I've not figured out a way to address the problem other than replacement.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Hear a longitudinal vibration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIw0Fh-fXIM

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 16:07
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff, what kind of piano is this?  Vertical, grand, what size, what brand?

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2017 12:32
From: David Love
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

There's really no solution but to remake the pair since it's hard to tell which one is off, though usually you can hear a difference between the two when sounded individually.  I've had to replace bichords periodically and I'm about to replace a set of strings on a lesser piano where the problem is on 6-8 pairs.  The problem rarely happens with the custom bass string makers that I use (in fact, I can't remember a time), that is typically JD Grandt or Gregor Heller.  Both do excellent work.  I can't speak for other makers as I have had some issues. I won't mention names. But I've had it occur on very high end pianos and have recently had to replace bichords on two new Hamburg Steinways, an A and a B.  The company was very cooperative in sending me the replacement strings, btw.  Also it doesn't seem to be an issue that is related to curved bridges as I've had the problem occur on bridges cut for equal speaking lengths and can't recall a problem (as I mentioned) on a custom set even with curved bridges.  

I've not figured out a way to address the problem other than replacement.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

This ones even better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj0xjS3BECc
You really can imagine what happens when two strings are of different lengths.

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 23:11
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Hear a longitudinal vibration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIw0Fh-fXIM

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 16:07
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff, what kind of piano is this?  Vertical, grand, what size, what brand?

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2017 12:32
From: David Love
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

There's really no solution but to remake the pair since it's hard to tell which one is off, though usually you can hear a difference between the two when sounded individually.  I've had to replace bichords periodically and I'm about to replace a set of strings on a lesser piano where the problem is on 6-8 pairs.  The problem rarely happens with the custom bass string makers that I use (in fact, I can't remember a time), that is typically JD Grandt or Gregor Heller.  Both do excellent work.  I can't speak for other makers as I have had some issues. I won't mention names. But I've had it occur on very high end pianos and have recently had to replace bichords on two new Hamburg Steinways, an A and a B.  The company was very cooperative in sending me the replacement strings, btw.  Also it doesn't seem to be an issue that is related to curved bridges as I've had the problem occur on bridges cut for equal speaking lengths and can't recall a problem (as I mentioned) on a custom set even with curved bridges.  

I've not figured out a way to address the problem other than replacement.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Wow! The Miller video is quite fascinating. Thanks for digging this up and sharing.

Now I'm considering the possibility that where the winding on a bass string actually physically starts and ends could be at play. Even if the winding on both strings was exactly the same length, if the winding on one string starts at a different distance from the termination point than the other string, it could possibly, potentially, cause an entirely different set of harmonics to manifest because of where it is grabbing the string. Just like Miller demonstrating the different harmonics when he grabs the rod at different distances from the end. Hence, beats that would only be heard when the two string are sounding at the same time. 

Now I'm gonna have to watch some more of this series. Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 23:20
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

This ones even better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj0xjS3BECc
You really can imagine what happens when two strings are of different lengths.

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 23:11
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Hear a longitudinal vibration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIw0Fh-fXIM

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 16:07
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff, what kind of piano is this?  Vertical, grand, what size, what brand?

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2017 12:32
From: David Love
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

There's really no solution but to remake the pair since it's hard to tell which one is off, though usually you can hear a difference between the two when sounded individually.  I've had to replace bichords periodically and I'm about to replace a set of strings on a lesser piano where the problem is on 6-8 pairs.  The problem rarely happens with the custom bass string makers that I use (in fact, I can't remember a time), that is typically JD Grandt or Gregor Heller.  Both do excellent work.  I can't speak for other makers as I have had some issues. I won't mention names. But I've had it occur on very high end pianos and have recently had to replace bichords on two new Hamburg Steinways, an A and a B.  The company was very cooperative in sending me the replacement strings, btw.  Also it doesn't seem to be an issue that is related to curved bridges as I've had the problem occur on bridges cut for equal speaking lengths and can't recall a problem (as I mentioned) on a custom set even with curved bridges.  

I've not figured out a way to address the problem other than replacement.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

The reason why I asked about the piano, and why it is relevant to this discussion, is because it generally determines the extent to which a technician should go in trying to correct harmonic/overtone problems.  The last posting that you made about the differences in the lengths of the windings, and the distances between the end of the windings and the termination points, is exactly the reason why I recommend replacing the strings.  Mismatched strings, as well as unequal speaking lengths, are exclusively the cause of the problems you describe. Some string makers, such as Arledge Music Wire, can take the data from the piano (not the string itself), as to the speaking lengths, the length between the hitch pins and upper terminations, the notes they belong to, etc. and engineer a new, perfectly matched pair. I don't know your level of knowledge in this area; perhaps you already know about this, but I have used Arledge Music Wire for almost ten years, for all kinds of different pianos, and have always had great results; It is the only way that I know to correct your problem, and if it on a smaller, less expensive piano, it is the only thing I would try.

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-31-2017 00:59
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Wow! The Miller video is quite fascinating. Thanks for digging this up and sharing.

Now I'm considering the possibility that where the winding on a bass string actually physically starts and ends could be at play. Even if the winding on both strings was exactly the same length, if the winding on one string starts at a different distance from the termination point than the other string, it could possibly, potentially, cause an entirely different set of harmonics to manifest because of where it is grabbing the string. Just like Miller demonstrating the different harmonics when he grabs the rod at different distances from the end. Hence, beats that would only be heard when the two string are sounding at the same time. 

Now I'm gonna have to watch some more of this series. Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 23:20
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

This ones even better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj0xjS3BECc
You really can imagine what happens when two strings are of different lengths.

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 23:11
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Hear a longitudinal vibration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIw0Fh-fXIM

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-30-2017 16:07
From: Alexander Doss
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

Geoff, what kind of piano is this?  Vertical, grand, what size, what brand?

------------------------------
Alex Doss

Complete Piano Service
Central FL.
352-279-3464
naturecoastpianotech@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-29-2017 12:32
From: David Love
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

There's really no solution but to remake the pair since it's hard to tell which one is off, though usually you can hear a difference between the two when sounded individually.  I've had to replace bichords periodically and I'm about to replace a set of strings on a lesser piano where the problem is on 6-8 pairs.  The problem rarely happens with the custom bass string makers that I use (in fact, I can't remember a time), that is typically JD Grandt or Gregor Heller.  Both do excellent work.  I can't speak for other makers as I have had some issues. I won't mention names. But I've had it occur on very high end pianos and have recently had to replace bichords on two new Hamburg Steinways, an A and a B.  The company was very cooperative in sending me the replacement strings, btw.  Also it doesn't seem to be an issue that is related to curved bridges as I've had the problem occur on bridges cut for equal speaking lengths and can't recall a problem (as I mentioned) on a custom set even with curved bridges.  

I've not figured out a way to address the problem other than replacement.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-27-2017 20:10
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: "False" beating bass strings

I think enough has been said about so-called false beating plain wire strings. I learned a lot from Ron, his Journal article and the discussion here. Thanks. But now I have bigger problems. Or thicker problems, as the case may be. Beats in wound bass strings. 

Seldom do I experience a single bass string that has a beat in it. But what I experience a lot is bass bi-chords that will beat. Each string, by itself, will be clean and quiet. But when attempting to set the unison, the partials don't line up. If I manage to get the fundamental on both strings aligned, the upper partials are wacky. If I aim to get the loudest higher partials to line up, then the 1st partial is wacky. Best I can do is get all of them to cooperate as quietly as possible with each other. 

I understand that this is usually the result of mismatched strings. I also understand that even carefully wound and matched strings are never going to be exactly identical. Granted, I experience this more on uprights, especially entry level uprights, but it occurs on grands, too. Even new pianos and theoretically well made new pianos are not immune.

I can't remember ever having a customer complain about this but it bothers my ears a lot. At least while tuning. But in the end, it is seldom problematic when actually playing unless I actually listen FOR it. Which I try not to do.

Anyway, any thoughts on this that don't involve replacing new strings with new strings? Or is this just one of those piano quirks that we eventually just have to get used to?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------