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Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

  • 1.  Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2017 21:28
      |   view attached
    Hello friends, 

    I have a Yamaha U3 with a few flabby sounding notes above the break. The wound strings are ok, but the next 3 are just bad sounding, the first one especially.  Anyone have any experience rescaling these notes, or taking other steps to improve the tone?

    Thanks!

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 2.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2017 22:44
    Zeno, 

    I would probably start with a riblet or two down there. If you have buttons on the soundboard it's very simple to attach a riblet and see the effect. I have not done it on a U3, but I have improved several good sized uprights in that area. It's a combination of weight and stiffness that does it by making the transfer of energy into the board a little slower thereby reducing the barking effect.

    Others probably also have more experience than me in this. It's a lot simpler than rescaling, and if you don't like it, or it does nothing, you can just take it off. 

    A little more complicated if the holes are not already drilled, but still doable.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 3.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Posted 06-02-2017 00:22
    Use Paulello type O to up the BP% a bit and it will help considerably. If you'd like you can send me measurements of the strings in that octave and I'll take a look at it for you.




  • 4.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2017 11:32
    That sound comes from the plain wire being too light.  When you have it at the pitch you want it is too slack.  I have had success on low end pianos by changing the lowest string to a full gauge heavier.  Then depending on how many you want to change, graduating half gauge toward the wire that you're leaving in place.  Some think it's better to change to wound strings there.

    PS What's a riblet?

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    Robert Callaghan
    Reno NV
    775-287-2140
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  • 5.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Posted 06-02-2017 13:58
    Riblet

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    Charles Rempel

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  • 6.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Posted 06-02-2017 15:23
    Do you have the string lengths, notes and current gauge?  Phillip's suggestion on BP% and Paullelo is what I would check, to see whether Peter's riblet suggestion or a rescaling might be the best shot.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 7.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Member
    Posted 06-02-2017 15:31
    I recall a technical session held at a dealer in Charleston SC at which I heard Yamaha wire is metric and should be replaced with metric.

    I had never heard that mentioned before but maybe others would like to shed light on this and if mixing wire is good, badf or no problem. Maybe the first few notes in the tenor need to be very fine wound strings ?  How old is the piano ?

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 8.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2017 21:40
    You do know that if you re-scale it it will no longer be a genuine Yamaha!

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 9.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2017 16:31

    Zeno,

    I have long been perplexed by the very problem that you cite.  It seems to me that manufacturers are too "chicken" to really put on some wire that will do the job!  I have spent many years observing scales and found a very few where they were not so "chicken" to do so.

    Some of the worst offenders are the Yamaha GH1 with plain and flabby wire down to B2 as well as Steinway Model L, the same:  six unisons of size 18 wire on a "hockey stick" bridge when they could have easily divided those six unisons up to 2 size 18, 2 size 19, 2 size 20 and 2 size 21.  I know what some will say:  "That is too heavy."  The wire becomes a "rod" or whatever.  But the fact is that there really were some manufacturers who "dared" to put such heavy wire in those places.

    The only real problem with the heavier wire is that it starts to get quite loud and brassy sounding.  In my opinion, with quite a lot of experience with it, the only thing you really need to do to combat that problem is to aggressively voice down the hammers in that section.  I have also heard about other solutions such as placing a brass weight on the soundboard opposite the end of the tenor bridge to provide some impedance but I never did that.  It does, however make sense.  The Baldwin 600 is one piano that I seem to recall had such a feature.

    In the late 80's and early 90's, I rescaled many pianos that I restrung using only a book that provided information on plain wire specifications.  What I found was that manufacturers routinely adhered to "traditional" wire changes, such as "six of these, four of those" and never dared to go much higher than a size 18 or 19 on a low tenor bridge (where some wound strings might have been more appropriate).  They just put there those flabby strings and left you, the technician to deal with it!

    The most I ever did to manage the problem of literally "too much sound" from perhaps the lowest two unisons was to reduce them from being tri-chord unisons to bi-chord.  (This, presumably may have been a place to change to wound strings.  However at the time, I had no ability to provide specifications for such.  I had to go with only the bichord plain wire.  It worked.)  There are opinions about plain wire bichords but there are also a number of pianos that have them.  While I think that perhaps the very lowest two unisons in the case you cite may benefit from plain wire bichords and very heavy plain wire such as up to size 22, I think that a slightly more conservative approach may work even better.

    Find the highest wire gauge on the low tenor bridge.  It should be marked on there.  See how many unisons there are of the same size.  Leave the highest two as they are but for each remaining pair, increase the wire size one full size.  That will do the trick. 



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    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
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  • 10.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2017 16:40
    Zeno,

    Upon looking at your photo which I did not see before, I would recommend replacing the two lowest plain wire unisons with size 21 wire and the next two higher with size 20.

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    William Bremmer
    RPT
    Madison WI
    608-238-8400
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  • 11.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2017 20:07
    William, I think you can avoid the brassy tone of using heavier gauged wire by substituting Paulello Type 1 wire of about the same size as the original, likely for the bottom 4 plain wire unisons.  This would raise the breaking percentage of the wire into the realm of good tone.  Part of the reason for the tone quality of the fat gauges is that the breaking percentages are lowered still further, even as you are increasing tension by this substitution.  

    The proper choice of gauge and wire type for these notss can often preclude the need to substitute a wound bi or trichord for the plain wire..

    Will Truitt

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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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  • 12.  RE: Yamaha U3; Rescale low tenor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-04-2017 09:06
    A riblet is a short rib (about 5-6" or so) installed in between the stock ribs. Both Fandrich have used and discussed this and other similar strategies fairly extensively. Changes impedance of soundboard.

    Nice because you don't have to go to A LOT of work to find out if it works. Often it does!  I make my own.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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