Pianotech

I know this subject has come up before, but using the search function to find it was bringing up tons of stuff about hygrometer applications but nothing about hardware recommendations. 

<- I apologize in advance for the length of this lead-up story ->

The inexpensive thermometer/hygrometer combo I carry is pretty reliable. I think. I tracks within a 1 or 2 percent of another almost identical unit as well as a dial hygrometer I have on the wall when all of them are sitting together on the same shelf at home. But the other day I was in a newly rebuilt recording studio that had an amazing AC system installed. In order to maintain a consistent humidity in the rooms, which had been seriously problematic, the system is set up to cool the air down to something like 65° and then, just before it gets pumped into the room, it gets heated back up to the desired room temperature, currently set at 72°. Crazy expensive but rock steady. 

I used to tune in this studio before it was rebuilt. Just during the course of a tuning the temperature would fluctuate up and down between 70° and 74°, and I could watch the RH fluctuate up and down between 67% & 80% every time the AC cycled. The piano already had a high wattage Dampp-Chaser dehumidifier installed, as well as a heavy full-to-the-floor cover and yet I was called in every couple of weeks to tune it back up from way out. 

I was in there last week for the first time since they completed the project and moved the piano back in. It no longer had the cover on, but the dehumidifier system was still plugged in. The readout on the three control units on the walls for the new AC system, one in each room, all had identical readings of 72° and 42% RH. And it never moved. My trusty handheld device, however, gave me a reading of 69° at 50% RH. And it never moved, either. The rooms are now unbelievably stable and they know this. They've already removed the cumbersome cover and my guess is that they probably don't need the dehumidifier either since the RH will never again get high enough for it to kick in. 

I've never been too concerned about my device being extremely accurate. I was more concerned with monitoring the change between one visit and the next. But seeing an 8% difference between my device and three new sensors on this crazy expensive hi-tech system tells me that perhaps it's time to invest in a new thermometer/hygrometer. Not scientifically accurate but better than the one I have. And not outrageously expensive. 

Looking for recommendations, if you have any. 

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff,

I've used the Extech RH300 Humidity Meter with Dew Point for about 10 years now.  I'm pleased with its accuracy and ruggedness.  
Read the specs carefully; note that measurements below 10%RH and above 90%RH are lower accuracy; this is true for all but lab-grade units. 

I uncap the sensor  and place the meter on the plate when I start my tuning, but turn the unit's power on only when I'm finished tuning (this saves the battery, but lets the sensor reach equilibrium).  When finished, I place the Extech near the serial number on the piano's plate, and then take a photo with my iPhone.  With the GPS metadata which is stored with the picture, I have captured: date/time, location, RH%, temperature, and the piano's ID.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2017 23:54
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

I know this subject has come up before, but using the search function to find it was bringing up tons of stuff about hygrometer applications but nothing about hardware recommendations.

<- I apologize in advance for the length of this lead-up story ->

The inexpensive thermometer/hygrometer combo I carry is pretty reliable. I think. I tracks within a 1 or 2 percent of another almost identical unit as well as a dial hygrometer I have on the wall when all of them are sitting together on the same shelf at home. But the other day I was in a newly rebuilt recording studio that had an amazing AC system installed. In order to maintain a consistent humidity in the rooms, which had been seriously problematic, the system is set up to cool the air down to something like 65° and then, just before it gets pumped into the room, it gets heated back up to the desired room temperature, currently set at 72°. Crazy expensive but rock steady.

I used to tune in this studio before it was rebuilt. Just during the course of a tuning the temperature would fluctuate up and down between 70° and 74°, and I could watch the RH fluctuate up and down between 67% & 80% every time the AC cycled. The piano already had a high wattage Dampp-Chaser dehumidifier installed, as well as a heavy full-to-the-floor cover and yet I was called in every couple of weeks to tune it back up from way out.

I was in there last week for the first time since they completed the project and moved the piano back in. It no longer had the cover on, but the dehumidifier system was still plugged in. The readout on the three control units on the walls for the new AC system, one in each room, all had identical readings of 72° and 42% RH. And it never moved. My trusty handheld device, however, gave me a reading of 69° at 50% RH. And it never moved, either. The rooms are now unbelievably stable and they know this. They've already removed the cumbersome cover and my guess is that they probably don't need the dehumidifier either since the RH will never again get high enough for it to kick in.

I've never been too concerned about my device being extremely accurate. I was more concerned with monitoring the change between one visit and the next. But seeing an 8% difference between my device and three new sensors on this crazy expensive hi-tech system tells me that perhaps it's time to invest in a new thermometer/hygrometer. Not scientifically accurate but better than the one I have. And not outrageously expensive.

Looking for recommendations, if you have any.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Hi Geoff -

I started writing this before entries by Alan Eder and Allen Gilreath, and, while I basically agree with what they've said, I thought there might still be something useful in what I had cobbled together.
I've also used an Extech device for maybe as long as John, and have been quite pleased, overall.  The one(s) I have are the RH390, which is different in a number of ways, which I'll try to describe, concisely.  I won't go into detail as to how I happen to have two of them, but I'll just say that it reflects favorably on the company's support of their product.

You can go on their website and view/download spec information on both (and other) products.  Extech Instruments, A FLIR Company
My choice of the RH390 was based (I think) on three features regarding range, accuracy and response time:

RH300 - Range 10% - 90%   Accuracy  +/- 3%
RH390 - Range  0 - 100%    Accuracy  +/- 2%
An additional feature of the RH390 that I've found useful is its 30 second response time.  Being able to see changes as they happen can be both illuminating and infuriating.

The con's of the 390:
- lists for twice price of the 300 (however I see them on Amazon for $146 or less)
- heavier
- not as compact
- not user-calibratable  (not sure why, but suspect its rated accuracy requires factory reset)

A few things to consider:
- While deeply satisfying, this level of accuracy is not usually necessary, for our normal purposes (at least according to RonN)
- The technology keeps evolving, and costs drop.  
- It becomes a question of faith.  You want to have confidence in the reliability of product and company.  You can generally double the price of these instruments if you want them with NIST Certified calibration, which doesn't tell you how accurate they remain after you've owned them for a while.  
- There's an item listed on-line right now for under $25.00  https://www.amazon.com/Caliber-Digital-Hygromter-Western-Humidor/dp/B00JXOKQVW/ref=sr_1_2_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1503582899&sr=1-2&keywords=cigar+hygrometer+digital
(sorry, it didn't seem to take link)  Caliber IV Digital Hygrometer - Western Humidor
It claims to be accurate to +/- 1% !!!!   I can't afford NOT to try it.

Decide the level of accuracy you want and then be willing to pay for it.


------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2017 00:14
From: John Rhodes
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

Geoff,

I've used the Extech RH300 Humidity Meter with Dew Point for about 10 years now.  I'm pleased with its accuracy and ruggedness.
Read the specs carefully; note that measurements below 10%RH and above 90%RH are lower accuracy; this is true for all but lab-grade units.

I uncap the sensor  and place the meter on the plate when I start my tuning, but turn the unit's power on only when I'm finished tuning (this saves the battery, but lets the sensor reach equilibrium).  When finished, I place the Extech near the serial number on the piano's plate, and then take a photo with my iPhone.  With the GPS metadata which is stored with the picture, I have captured: date/time, location, RH%, temperature, and the piano's ID.

------------------------------
John Rhodes
Vancouver WA
360-721-0728

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2017 23:54
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

I know this subject has come up before, but using the search function to find it was bringing up tons of stuff about hygrometer applications but nothing about hardware recommendations.

<- I apologize in advance for the length of this lead-up story ->

The inexpensive thermometer/hygrometer combo I carry is pretty reliable. I think. I tracks within a 1 or 2 percent of another almost identical unit as well as a dial hygrometer I have on the wall when all of them are sitting together on the same shelf at home. But the other day I was in a newly rebuilt recording studio that had an amazing AC system installed. In order to maintain a consistent humidity in the rooms, which had been seriously problematic, the system is set up to cool the air down to something like 65° and then, just before it gets pumped into the room, it gets heated back up to the desired room temperature, currently set at 72°. Crazy expensive but rock steady.

I used to tune in this studio before it was rebuilt. Just during the course of a tuning the temperature would fluctuate up and down between 70° and 74°, and I could watch the RH fluctuate up and down between 67% & 80% every time the AC cycled. The piano already had a high wattage Dampp-Chaser dehumidifier installed, as well as a heavy full-to-the-floor cover and yet I was called in every couple of weeks to tune it back up from way out.

I was in there last week for the first time since they completed the project and moved the piano back in. It no longer had the cover on, but the dehumidifier system was still plugged in. The readout on the three control units on the walls for the new AC system, one in each room, all had identical readings of 72° and 42% RH. And it never moved. My trusty handheld device, however, gave me a reading of 69° at 50% RH. And it never moved, either. The rooms are now unbelievably stable and they know this. They've already removed the cumbersome cover and my guess is that they probably don't need the dehumidifier either since the RH will never again get high enough for it to kick in.

I've never been too concerned about my device being extremely accurate. I was more concerned with monitoring the change between one visit and the next. But seeing an 8% difference between my device and three new sensors on this crazy expensive hi-tech system tells me that perhaps it's time to invest in a new thermometer/hygrometer. Not scientifically accurate but better than the one I have. And not outrageously expensive.

Looking for recommendations, if you have any.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff,

Is this the first time you have been able to compare the readings of the studio's control unit with your own hygrometer? And are you sure that the numbers you are looking at on their wall-mounted units are are readings as opposed to targets?

The relatively inexpensive units I use do not necessarily agree with each other. So, I consider the data from any given unit to be "relative-relative humidity," which is to say, relative to itself (higher, lower, the same).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2017 23:54
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

I know this subject has come up before, but using the search function to find it was bringing up tons of stuff about hygrometer applications but nothing about hardware recommendations.

<- I apologize in advance for the length of this lead-up story ->

The inexpensive thermometer/hygrometer combo I carry is pretty reliable. I think. I tracks within a 1 or 2 percent of another almost identical unit as well as a dial hygrometer I have on the wall when all of them are sitting together on the same shelf at home. But the other day I was in a newly rebuilt recording studio that had an amazing AC system installed. In order to maintain a consistent humidity in the rooms, which had been seriously problematic, the system is set up to cool the air down to something like 65° and then, just before it gets pumped into the room, it gets heated back up to the desired room temperature, currently set at 72°. Crazy expensive but rock steady.

I used to tune in this studio before it was rebuilt. Just during the course of a tuning the temperature would fluctuate up and down between 70° and 74°, and I could watch the RH fluctuate up and down between 67% & 80% every time the AC cycled. The piano already had a high wattage Dampp-Chaser dehumidifier installed, as well as a heavy full-to-the-floor cover and yet I was called in every couple of weeks to tune it back up from way out.

I was in there last week for the first time since they completed the project and moved the piano back in. It no longer had the cover on, but the dehumidifier system was still plugged in. The readout on the three control units on the walls for the new AC system, one in each room, all had identical readings of 72° and 42% RH. And it never moved. My trusty handheld device, however, gave me a reading of 69° at 50% RH. And it never moved, either. The rooms are now unbelievably stable and they know this. They've already removed the cumbersome cover and my guess is that they probably don't need the dehumidifier either since the RH will never again get high enough for it to kick in.

I've never been too concerned about my device being extremely accurate. I was more concerned with monitoring the change between one visit and the next. But seeing an 8% difference between my device and three new sensors on this crazy expensive hi-tech system tells me that perhaps it's time to invest in a new thermometer/hygrometer. Not scientifically accurate but better than the one I have. And not outrageously expensive.

Looking for recommendations, if you have any.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Good morning Geoff,

Alan has some good points. One of the things about hygrometers is that they have to be calibrated as their accuracy shifts over time. As Alan also mentioned, the readouts on the walls may be showing the target rather than the actual level in the room. There is also the issue of where the location of the sensor for the system. Reading the humidity in the duct could be totally different from reading the relative humidity in the room.

A laboratory grade sling psychrometer will tend to give less variation than the electronic sensors but you get into the issues of care, fragility, time for readings, etc.

Overall, the thing you still want to see is the change that occurs, especially when you aren't there. Using dataloggers will provide that information over not only an hour or a day but even over an entire season. Definitely worth the meager investment for the information and insight that you obtain.

Best regards!

Allan

------------------------------
Allan Gilreath, RPT
Registered Piano Technician & President
Allan Gilreath & Associates, Inc
Calhoun, GA
706-602-7667
allan@allangilreath.com - www.allangilreath.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2017 07:17
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

Geoff,

Is this the first time you have been able to compare the readings of the studio's control unit with your own hygrometer? And are you sure that the numbers you are looking at on their wall-mounted units are are readings as opposed to targets?

The relatively inexpensive units I use do not necessarily agree with each other. So, I consider the data from any given unit to be "relative-relative humidity," which is to say, relative to itself (higher, lower, the same).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2017 23:54
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

I know this subject has come up before, but using the search function to find it was bringing up tons of stuff about hygrometer applications but nothing about hardware recommendations.

<- I apologize in advance for the length of this lead-up story ->

The inexpensive thermometer/hygrometer combo I carry is pretty reliable. I think. I tracks within a 1 or 2 percent of another almost identical unit as well as a dial hygrometer I have on the wall when all of them are sitting together on the same shelf at home. But the other day I was in a newly rebuilt recording studio that had an amazing AC system installed. In order to maintain a consistent humidity in the rooms, which had been seriously problematic, the system is set up to cool the air down to something like 65° and then, just before it gets pumped into the room, it gets heated back up to the desired room temperature, currently set at 72°. Crazy expensive but rock steady.

I used to tune in this studio before it was rebuilt. Just during the course of a tuning the temperature would fluctuate up and down between 70° and 74°, and I could watch the RH fluctuate up and down between 67% & 80% every time the AC cycled. The piano already had a high wattage Dampp-Chaser dehumidifier installed, as well as a heavy full-to-the-floor cover and yet I was called in every couple of weeks to tune it back up from way out.

I was in there last week for the first time since they completed the project and moved the piano back in. It no longer had the cover on, but the dehumidifier system was still plugged in. The readout on the three control units on the walls for the new AC system, one in each room, all had identical readings of 72° and 42% RH. And it never moved. My trusty handheld device, however, gave me a reading of 69° at 50% RH. And it never moved, either. The rooms are now unbelievably stable and they know this. They've already removed the cumbersome cover and my guess is that they probably don't need the dehumidifier either since the RH will never again get high enough for it to kick in.

I've never been too concerned about my device being extremely accurate. I was more concerned with monitoring the change between one visit and the next. But seeing an 8% difference between my device and three new sensors on this crazy expensive hi-tech system tells me that perhaps it's time to invest in a new thermometer/hygrometer. Not scientifically accurate but better than the one I have. And not outrageously expensive.

Looking for recommendations, if you have any.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Don't forget tennis elbow, as well. (Years ago, I had one of these to serve as a reference for my Abbeon-Cal hair hygrometer, and quickly grew tired of the manual labor.)

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2017 08:19
From: Allan Gilreath
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

Good morning Geoff,

Alan has some good points. One of the things about hygrometers is that they have to be calibrated as their accuracy shifts over time. As Alan also mentioned, the readouts on the walls may be showing the target rather than the actual level in the room. There is also the issue of where the location of the sensor for the system. Reading the humidity in the duct could be totally different from reading the relative humidity in the room.

A laboratory grade sling psychrometer will tend to give less variation than the electronic sensors but you get into the issues of care, fragility, time for readings, etc.

Overall, the thing you still want to see is the change that occurs, especially when you aren't there. Using dataloggers will provide that information over not only an hour or a day but even over an entire season. Definitely worth the meager investment for the information and insight that you obtain.

Best regards!

Allan

------------------------------
Allan Gilreath, RPT
Registered Piano Technician & President
Allan Gilreath & Associates, Inc
Calhoun, GA
706-602-7667
allan@allangilreath.com - www.allangilreath.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2017 07:17
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

Geoff,

Is this the first time you have been able to compare the readings of the studio's control unit with your own hygrometer? And are you sure that the numbers you are looking at on their wall-mounted units are are readings as opposed to targets?

The relatively inexpensive units I use do not necessarily agree with each other. So, I consider the data from any given unit to be "relative-relative humidity," which is to say, relative to itself (higher, lower, the same).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2017 23:54
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

I know this subject has come up before, but using the search function to find it was bringing up tons of stuff about hygrometer applications but nothing about hardware recommendations.

<- I apologize in advance for the length of this lead-up story ->

The inexpensive thermometer/hygrometer combo I carry is pretty reliable. I think. I tracks within a 1 or 2 percent of another almost identical unit as well as a dial hygrometer I have on the wall when all of them are sitting together on the same shelf at home. But the other day I was in a newly rebuilt recording studio that had an amazing AC system installed. In order to maintain a consistent humidity in the rooms, which had been seriously problematic, the system is set up to cool the air down to something like 65° and then, just before it gets pumped into the room, it gets heated back up to the desired room temperature, currently set at 72°. Crazy expensive but rock steady.

I used to tune in this studio before it was rebuilt. Just during the course of a tuning the temperature would fluctuate up and down between 70° and 74°, and I could watch the RH fluctuate up and down between 67% & 80% every time the AC cycled. The piano already had a high wattage Dampp-Chaser dehumidifier installed, as well as a heavy full-to-the-floor cover and yet I was called in every couple of weeks to tune it back up from way out.

I was in there last week for the first time since they completed the project and moved the piano back in. It no longer had the cover on, but the dehumidifier system was still plugged in. The readout on the three control units on the walls for the new AC system, one in each room, all had identical readings of 72° and 42% RH. And it never moved. My trusty handheld device, however, gave me a reading of 69° at 50% RH. And it never moved, either. The rooms are now unbelievably stable and they know this. They've already removed the cumbersome cover and my guess is that they probably don't need the dehumidifier either since the RH will never again get high enough for it to kick in.

I've never been too concerned about my device being extremely accurate. I was more concerned with monitoring the change between one visit and the next. But seeing an 8% difference between my device and three new sensors on this crazy expensive hi-tech system tells me that perhaps it's time to invest in a new thermometer/hygrometer. Not scientifically accurate but better than the one I have. And not outrageously expensive.

Looking for recommendations, if you have any.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I suggest investing in a tem/rh/dew point logger that comes with software. Test it out in a few setting to get familiar how to program it, place it, start and stop, dump the files , You can set the parameters to sample every few minutes
24 x 7 . I like to leave the loggers in for about two weeks of data. You may see results steady as a rock but also all over the place when the studio is idle. The problem with a two hour or 3 hour snap shot is that it I not a good enough sample. The sample you get from the wall unit displays are not going to be the same at the piano in most cases. 

      The price of the data loggers has come down and there are models that even use Bluetooth to transmit to the computer. I have several CAS Lascar Dataloggers . The small digital units you can purchase at home depot, lowes, Ace Hardware are good for clients to have to monitor around the piano. I have had many clients detect poor air flow and problems with their hvacs because the units detected high r/h. 



------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2017 07:17
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

Geoff,

Is this the first time you have been able to compare the readings of the studio's control unit with your own hygrometer? And are you sure that the numbers you are looking at on their wall-mounted units are are readings as opposed to targets?

The relatively inexpensive units I use do not necessarily agree with each other. So, I consider the data from any given unit to be "relative-relative humidity," which is to say, relative to itself (higher, lower, the same).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2017 23:54
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Hygrometer recommendations

I know this subject has come up before, but using the search function to find it was bringing up tons of stuff about hygrometer applications but nothing about hardware recommendations.

<- I apologize in advance for the length of this lead-up story ->

The inexpensive thermometer/hygrometer combo I carry is pretty reliable. I think. I tracks within a 1 or 2 percent of another almost identical unit as well as a dial hygrometer I have on the wall when all of them are sitting together on the same shelf at home. But the other day I was in a newly rebuilt recording studio that had an amazing AC system installed. In order to maintain a consistent humidity in the rooms, which had been seriously problematic, the system is set up to cool the air down to something like 65° and then, just before it gets pumped into the room, it gets heated back up to the desired room temperature, currently set at 72°. Crazy expensive but rock steady.

I used to tune in this studio before it was rebuilt. Just during the course of a tuning the temperature would fluctuate up and down between 70° and 74°, and I could watch the RH fluctuate up and down between 67% & 80% every time the AC cycled. The piano already had a high wattage Dampp-Chaser dehumidifier installed, as well as a heavy full-to-the-floor cover and yet I was called in every couple of weeks to tune it back up from way out.

I was in there last week for the first time since they completed the project and moved the piano back in. It no longer had the cover on, but the dehumidifier system was still plugged in. The readout on the three control units on the walls for the new AC system, one in each room, all had identical readings of 72° and 42% RH. And it never moved. My trusty handheld device, however, gave me a reading of 69° at 50% RH. And it never moved, either. The rooms are now unbelievably stable and they know this. They've already removed the cumbersome cover and my guess is that they probably don't need the dehumidifier either since the RH will never again get high enough for it to kick in.

I've never been too concerned about my device being extremely accurate. I was more concerned with monitoring the change between one visit and the next. But seeing an 8% difference between my device and three new sensors on this crazy expensive hi-tech system tells me that perhaps it's time to invest in a new thermometer/hygrometer. Not scientifically accurate but better than the one I have. And not outrageously expensive.

Looking for recommendations, if you have any.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------