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P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

  • 1.  P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Member
    Posted 08-25-2017 15:07
    This is a question directed to OnlyPure users. 
    I've been interested in and studying the perfect twelfth tuning for some forty years.
    Currently I have Verituner and Tunelab, and I mostly use Tunelab.
    I have two methods of using Tunelab to achieve a perfect twelfth tuning.
    I'm very much interested by the descriptions that float by concerning OnlyPure. The scintillating tunings. I'm very curious how they would compare to what I do with Tunelab.
    So I'm looking at purchasing a Tunic app to satisfy my curiosity. There are two levels of app - roughly $300 vs $600, and the less expensive one therefore has to be manually note-switched?
    Con one upgrade from the lesser to the greater and have an offsetting discount?
    I gather you can't do much tweaking of settings. 
    Is it worth it?

    Related question - for those of you who use both TL and OnlyPure - shall we discuss how to do P12 on TuneLab?

    Cheers
    Jason Kanter
    Associate
    (Registered Craftsman in 1971)
     
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    jason's cell 425 830 1561


  • 2.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2017 15:16
    I'd be interested in your P12 method using Tunelab. I use the P12 checks aurally a lot and it seems that's TL''s native objective.

    ------------------------------
    Gary Bruce, RPT
    Bruce Piano Service
    Edmond, OK
    405-413-TUNE
    www.brucepiano.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2017 15:38
    Very interested in how you do P12 in tunelab

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    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
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  • 4.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Posted 08-25-2017 16:30
    Jason,

    to answer your question about upgrading "Can one upgrade from the lesser to the greater and have an offsetting discount":

    For the iOS Version there is an app bundle available called "Concert Piano Technicians Toolbag", which includes OnlyPure, OnlyPure Basic and Unisono Sweet Spot Indicator. If you start with OnlyPure Basic, you can later use the "complete my bundle" functionality from the app store to get the bundle discounted by your previous purchase.
    The bundle is 100 more than OnlyPure alone.

    Regards,

    Bernhard Stopper

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    Bernhard Stopper
    Klavierbaumeister
    Tuebingen
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  • 5.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2017 16:32
    Jason wrote, "So I'm looking at purchasing a Tunic app to satisfy my curiosity. There are two levels of app - roughly $300 vs $600, and the less expensive one therefore has to be manually note-switched?
    Con one upgrade from the lesser to the greater and have an offsetting discount?
    I gather you can't do much tweaking of settings."

    I think the full version is $699.99 and the basic version with no auto note switch is $349.99.

    I'd suggest sticking with the full version. There is an upgrade path from the basic version, see "The Concert Piano Technician's Toolbag" in the App Store, but I do not know the details of the path.

    But what I really want to answer is the matter of tweaking settings. We are accustomed to tweaking things. But...

    OnlyPure opened up a new way of tuning equal temperament on the piano. In a way, it separates correcting for inharmonicity on the one hand from tuning a temperament and stretching on the other hand.

    This means that after correcting for inharmonicity, there is mostly only one correct solution for overlaying pure 12th ET. Therefore, "tweaks" would only degrade equal temperament. I know, this idea can rub us wrong the wrong way, but it seems to be true nonetheless.

    An alternative to tweaking would be the ability to choose various widths of equal temperament. Verituner can do this now; widths of ET restore the ability to choose an amount of stretch, but in a coherent way -- and allowing the tech some amount of control.



    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
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  • 6.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2017 17:18

    An alternative to tweaking would be the ability to choose various widths of equal temperament. Verituner can do this now;
    Kent Swafford,  08-25-2017 16:31
    I should have come right out and said that it is very likely OnlyPure will be updated soon to tune the widths of equal temperament from pure octave to pure 5th. This should satisfy the tech's desire to tweak, but in a new, coherent, and powerful way.

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    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Member
    Posted 08-26-2017 17:23
    Tuning P12 with TuneLab.

    Short form: 
    Tweak the tuning with four custom offsets. 
    Use a 6:2/3:1 curve and match the following offsets.
    A4(3) = E6(1)
    E6(3) = B7(1)
    D3(3) = 440
    D2(6) = 440

    Here's how, on my iPad: 
    Set TL default octave styles to 6:2 bass and 3:1 treble.
    Measure.
    1. Match E6(1) to A4(3).
    Select A4, which is set at Fundamental.
    Slide finger across the spectrum display from left to right twice. This should change the partial displayed to 3rd partial.
    Note the frequency. On my piano it is 1324.86.
    Change to note E6(Fundamental) and note the frequency. On my iPad it is 1323.78.
    Slide finger across the phase display to match the frequencies. Set "Allow offset adjust?" to Yes.
    Fix this new custom offset: drag from the upper right (Offset) to the note name in the center of the screen. "Allow transfer of offset?" = Yes. This becomes a red target mark on the tuning curve.
    2. Match B7(1) to E6(3).
    Select E6, which is set to Fundamental. (Already selected.)
    Slide finger across the spectrum display from left to right twice. This should change the partial displayed to 3rd partial.
    Note the frequency, in my case 4024.54.
    Change to note B7(1) and note the frequency, in my case 4028.80. Fix this new offset: drag from the upper right (Offset) to the note name in the center of the screen. "Allow transfer of offset?" = Yes.
    3. Set D3(3) to 440.00, using the same procedure.
    4. Set D2(6) to 440.00, ditto.
    Go into the tuning curve, full manual mode, and massage the curve until it fits all four red marks.
    Now test it. Tune D1, D2, D3, A4, E6, and B7.

    (Have not investigated whether the measure sequence should be adjusted to optimize the results. Consider measuring D1, D2, D3, A4, E6, B7.)

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    jason's cell 425 830 1561

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    jason's cell 425 830 1561

    On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Kent Swafford via Piano Technicians Guild






  • 8.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Member
    Posted 08-26-2017 17:29
    It looks like my message lost all coherence. (One big runon paragraph with no carriage returns?) Should I try to resend?

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    jason's cell 425 830 1561





  • 9.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Member
    Posted 08-26-2017 17:39
    The accuracy depends on how good Tunelab's math matches the actual physics. What Tunelab calculates as E6(3) may not match the reality.

    So the second method of using Tunelab to tune P12 is much more labor-intensive: to do it by direct measurements at the piano, reading A4(3) directly and actually tuning E6(1) to that frequency, then read that string's 3rd partial and using that as the basis for B7(1). 

    I'm also interested in reactions that I'm leaving D1 out of the curve. I'm not at all sure about the bottom of the bass. 9:3?

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    jason's cell 425 830 1561





  • 10.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2017 17:44
    Looks good to me. Thanks for sharing.

    Gary Bruce
    Registered Piano Technician





  • 11.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Posted 08-27-2017 12:29
    I tried it out and it seems to makes sense although the curve doesn't seem to much different than what the auto tuning curve has. Question: When you're done with the changes do you put A4 back to Fundamental? On the third partial it makes it 5.58 cents flat.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Member
    Posted 08-27-2017 13:04
    Yes, the 3:1/6:2 gets the curve very close to P12. Yes, I set A4 and E6 back to Fundamental for doing the tuning. Still not sure about the bass. Robert Scott is liking 8:4 these days, and one respondent to this thread mentioned that 10:5 roughly matches OnlyPure.

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    Jason Kanter
    Bellevue WA
    425-830-1561
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  • 13.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Member
    Posted 08-27-2017 13:19
    I see that the person mentioning 10:5 was scott kerns. Thanks for trying this out. 

    My question is: does this method of setting D3(3) and D2(6) to 440 achieve something close to OnlyPure? In the mid to upper bass it pleases me. 
    Then from D2 down to the bottom, I've been using ear more than eye. The calculated curve is generally not quite deep enough. 

    I do wish Robert would add 9:3 as an option. 






  • 14.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Posted 08-27-2017 17:35
    "My question is: does this method of setting D3(3) and D2(6) to 440 achieve something close to OnlyPure? In the mid to upper bass it pleases me. 
    Then from D2 down to the bottom, I've been using ear more than eye. The calculated curve is generally not quite deep enough." - Jason K.

    I'll try it out this week. Yes, I agree about the bass section, although I haven't tried the 6:2 in the bass, I've been going back and forth with 6:3, 8:4 and 10:5. I was trying out your method on a file I have of a Yamaha P22 and your changes weren't too much different than the Auto mode was setting, but maybe it's enough that it does make a difference. 

    I have another question for you. Are you using the Auto Partial Selection in the bass? And if so, Persistent or not?


    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Member
    Posted 08-27-2017 20:34
    I haven't fiddled much yet with auto-partial-selection. The concept is good. Each scaling seems to emphasize different prominent partials down there. I'd prefer to listen to the range, decide which partial I prefer on that piano, and then set those partials once and done. I don't think it's great to jump around, as I don't completely trust the smoothness of that curve based on six quick readings. If I select the fifth partial as the one I prefer to listen to as we descend, I'd like the machine to display the fifth as well. 

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    jason's cell 425 830 1561

    On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Scott Kerns via Piano Technicians Guild






  • 16.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Posted 08-27-2017 21:15
    Jason - With someone of your experience the Auto Partial Selection isn't necessary. I use it, and many times I've seen it change partials to what actually sounds better. So it can be handy. I always do an aural check with the bass section anyway, because many times that's where TuneLab and sometimes OnlyPure has some problems.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2017 16:41

    I have two methods of using Tunelab to achieve a perfect twelfth tuning.
    Jason Kanter,  08-25-2017 15:06
    I would be interested in knowing either one or both of these methods. Very, very interested.

    ------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2017 20:17
    i would also be very interested in what you have come up with.  Clark

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    Clark A. Sprague, RPT
    Bowling Green, OH
    www.clarkspianoservice.com
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  • 19.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Posted 08-25-2017 21:49
    Since I have OnlyPure and TuneLab I've discovered that the 10:5 in the bass and 3:1 12ths in the treble gets pretty much spot on with OnlyPure. Also, the 6:1 oct+12th in the treble gets close, but the more I use it, I think the 3:1 12ths gets closer. There's a bit more stretch when I get to the lowest bass and upper treble, compared to OnlyPure so, I'm still experimenting. I'm interested to know what you've come up with Jason.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Posted 08-31-2017 14:24
    And the results are in! At least for now... I experimented on the pianos I tune regularly at a church. I was having real good results with the 8:4 / 3:1 12ths. I tried your offsets Jason and they didn't make a significant difference. I just used the Full Automatic setting with the 8:4 / 3:1 12ths and it was tracking nicely with OnlyPure. I made sure that both devices were calibrated to each other. TuneLab is my pitch setting app and then I match OnlyPure to A4 on the piano. OnlyPure needs to calibrate to the actual piano string. So, the testing goes on, but that's what I'm finding today.

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: P12 in TuneLab and OnlyPure

    Posted 08-31-2017 18:21
    Okay, a couple more pianos this afternoon. An Everett Console. I took measurements, selected 8:4 / 3:1 12ths and started tuning. Yikes! It wasn't matching at all! So, I changed the bass to 6:1 and did Jason's offsets, adjusted the tuning curve to match the offsets and viola, things were matching up nicely. I was in a hurry with the second piano (this was a church I tune for regularly) so wasn't quite as careful and reused the measurements I had already taken, but things were matching up pretty nicely. I'll see what tomorrow brings!

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure & TuneLab user
    ------------------------------