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Fazioli question

  • 1.  Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2017 20:30
    I have a customer who is planning on trading up his 1977 Bösendorfer 5' 8" grand, (which I have been servicing since he got it in early 2006), for a Fazioli. I've never been allowed to touch a Fazioli but I've seen several, from a short distance. Chances are he will move up to the diamond standard tech that provides the 1st free tuning, and I'm not sure I would blame him. But really... Are Fazioli's so unique and high end that they require a significantly higher level of service? And if yes, what makes them so unique other than the fact that they actually are unique? 


    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2017 21:07
    The better the inherent quality of a piano, the more responsive it is to higher levels of servicing. Since Faziolis are among the very finest pianos made, both the manufacturer and dealers greatly enhance the perception of their product by having someone like Richard Davenport here in Los Angeles prep the instrument and make sure everything is tip-top in the purchaser's home, even though it does cost more to do so. 

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2017 01:04
    It's no different from any other top tier piano that responds to a confident and deft touch in terms regulation and voicing. The Bosendorfer that you've been servicing isn't exactly chopped liver.  If you are servicing that succesfully there's no reason to assume you can't service the Fazioli succesfully. You should not feel intimidated.  I would simply endeavor to be thorough and engage the customer in a discussion about his tastes and expectations.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-05-2017 13:40
    I agree with David about the confident and deft touch that maintaining any excellent piano requires. Just keep in mind that though, yes, this is a very fine instrument, in order to sell at those price points, the level of BS being slung by the dealer is off the charts...and their ability to sling it is exceptional. Its not that its not a great instrument, its that the sales talk, at this price point takes no prisoners.

    Keep your eyes on the level of your own professionalism and skills, which are most likely, as up to the task as anyone out there, including their techs. Maintaining any fine piano at a very high level takes time, and thus money. The dealer will be much better able than most of us, to talk the funds required without batting an eyelash. Frankly, this part, talking the time and thus money, without self-doubt, will, in my opinion, be your only real challenge. The dealer is real good at this, and this aspect alone can extract an excellent and committed client from you.

    They will play the "have you (Geoff) ever serviced a Fazioli"  line with your customer...be prepared to respond with the self-assuredness these guys are really good at projecting.

    Also keep in mind, with the real high end stuff, these clients often consider paying extreme top dollar a tribal badge of some sort. Trying to give your customer breaks by keeping the price of your services too low relative to the dealer's prices, can actually be a deal breaker if a tech tries to keep the price reasonable. They often not only expect to pay higher prices, but want to pay the higher prices, as the higher price is the cost of the tribal badge...think of Steinway's well known tribal use of "welcome to the Steinway family".

    ...ughh...

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-05-2017 19:40
    There are the special tools and techniques for occasional retuning of the Fazioli duplex bars.
    There's also knowing how to get in the line about how the Fazioli soundboard comes from the same forest where Stradivari got his violin wood.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2017 20:21
    Thanks to all for your responses. Not sure yet how I'm going to let this play out. It won't happen until next year so no rush. Supporting high end hype, high end tech support, along with myth and facts that high end customers buy in to is not something I have ever aspired to.

    The customer has always regretted his purchase of the Bösendorfer. I've done what I can and have helped it some. I've also been acceptably servicing it for about 12 years so I must be doing something right.

    The tip on the Stradivarious wood source is a fun fact that I will definitely mention when I see this customer next week.


    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2017 23:32
    Since you will be the regular technician servicing this piano I think your client could ask the dealer to pay for your time observing their technician prep the piano.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2017 23:50
    Larry --

    Thanks for your vote of confidence, but that's probably not gonna happen. Nobody can assume that when a customer buys a new piano, ANY new piano, and gets that 1st free tuning from a store chosen tech, that one will ever see that customer again. I do a lot of work for a large dealer and I do enough 1st free tunings to know that I'm frequently the guy that replaces that customers former tech. Knowing who the store owner is in this case, and who the tech is that services his Fazioli's, I'm still quite happy staying in little league. This tech, who many of us know, is not someone that I have either the aspiration or desire to follow on ANY job. He's that good! And, I'm not sure how to say this delicately but, I really don't want to get that good.

    But, again, this isn't happening until next year. Who knows how this will play out by then. For the moment, I'm just trying to learn a little more about this "ultra fantastic" piano, what it requires, and the world it, and it's owners live in. 

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 01:17
    Geoff,
    I might just say that you already live in this same world with that “ultra-fantstic” piano. Even though you claim you don’t want to to follow the tech on this job, I would ask, why not? I’ll wager that you have surprised yourself with many under-tapped skills that come to the fore when the situation demanded. We are all capable of perceiving beauty and refinement, but perhaps culturally (especially American,) we disdain perceiving it in ourselves.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 10.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-05-2017 23:55
    Stradivari wood? Either a joke or a devious marketing ploy.
    In a piano, wood species isn't as important as people may think it is. Design and craftsmanship over species. You could get the highest grade red spruce and put it in a POS spinet piano and what have you got? A pos spinet with wasted red spruce.  On the other hand you could get little used Douglas fir from Home Depot and put it in a High quality grand, and it will sound damn good if done right.  
    But hey, if someone has lots of money, and wants to believe in a fantasy, then whatever.

    ------------------------------
    [Chris] [Chernobieff]
    [Lenoir City] [TN]

    I never believed in things that I couldn't see, I said if I can't feel it, then how could it be?
    No, no, Magic could happen to me,
    Then I saw you!
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 01:18
    Well, sort of.  Yes, "Stradavari" wood might be a bit of hype but different species do have their own characteristics and the way you work with them makes a difference as well. For example, Sitka spruce, in my experience,  requires different thinning practices (or different thickness--or both) than, say, white spruce.  I think they produce different tonal outcomes probably due to different damping properties inherent in the differences between the species.  Certainly in other instruments (guitars, for example). species differences are quite pronounced.  One of the issues with using alternate materials are these differences in damping characteristics.  There's no reason to expect that woods which vary in stiffness to weight ratios and specific gravity won't also have tonal differences.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-06-2017 05:11
    I do not vouch for the truth of the Stradivari forest story.
    It was part of the blather to congratulate the customer on his discernment in purchasing the piano.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 06:28
    Even if it's the same forest, it's not the same trees, and not trees that have grown at the same rate under the same conditions.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 06:54
    The important thing to keep in mind when servicing a high end piano is that each of these makers has a very clear idea of their tone and this tone is quite different from maker to maker. One should be focused on recognizing that unique tone and maintaining it. This requires sensitivity to voicing and fine regulation. 

    There is a Viennese sound and a Northern German sound and an Eastern German sound. It is NOT that they all want to sound like Steinway and just haven't figured out how. Leave the lacquer bottle in the car!

    Also, keep in mind that a large part of the price of these instruments is in final prep, so the piano arrives sounding very much as the maker prefers. They do not arrive "half finished" with the expectation that the dealer will finish the prep. 

    In my mind, one should NOT do across the board prep steps, like seating strings, bending strings around bridge pins and capo bars. Doing so can significantly alter the sound of the piano, and not in a good way. These makers know what they are doing and have spent a lot of time doing it, so one's default mode should be "leave well enough alone", at least at first. 

    But my primary question is...if you don't want to raise your skills to service a fine piano...why even bother thinking about it...wish your customer and his new tech well. 





  • 15.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-06-2017 07:55
    For emphasis, here is what Jim wrote 

    "Just keep in mind that though, yes, this is a very fine instrument, in order to sell at those price points, the level of BS being slung by the dealer is off the charts...and their ability to sling it is exceptional. Its not that its not a great instrument, its that the sales talk, at this price point takes no prisoners."

    Anyone working in this field needs to understand this. Somehow we need to keep our work in objective reality without injuring the belief systems of our customers. If we lose a customer to the hyperbole, we can see it as an escape from the cognitive dissonance!

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 08:16
    The Val di Fiemme story is true, and a number of other makers have used spruce from this area. Look for a very distinctive brand near the low end of the bass bridge. 

    How much credence you put in the superiority of this wood is up to you. However I suggest it is not your place to denigrate the idea. Do you really know more than Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Sauter and others?

    ------------------------------
    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-06-2017 08:33
    <Do you really know more than Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Sauter and others?

    Oh please...I might add plenty of pallet wood also comes out of the Val Di Fiemme. You should know that this pallet wood comes only from the north facing slopes, and is harvested only by chain saws that have amazing pedigrees.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 08:38
    Chris,

    You are, of course, quite right that it's not just the material, but how you use it. Paolo Fazioli would be the first to agree. Are you aware of how they select the trees, harvest them, mill the lumber, and select planks for their panels, not to mention their overall design, construction and finish prep? It is all really pretty impressive from start to completion. They talk the talk, but they also walk the walk.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-06-2017 08:42
    I don't denigrate the piano, I,ve admired every Boesendorfer and Fazioli I've had the good fortune to service.
    I do question the objective value and historical truth of the "Stradivari Forest" claim.
    Objectively, it would make sense to say "Our piano soundboards are made from wood from the same forest as Boesendorfer, Fazioli and Sauter
    pianos." 
    For some reason this is not the way the sales pitch goes.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-06-2017 08:24
    Geoff,

    I'm curious about the Bosendorfer. You mentioned that they never really liked it. It is  aging, but what about it is not to their tastes?


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 08:43
    The 170 is a great piano, with the true Bosendorfer DNA deep in its bones. It is a little small for the taste of many Americans, but if it is for sale, please let me know. 





  • 22.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 09:48
    Geoff,

    Being "on top" is not always the best place to be, since there's only one place to go. Remember Tiger Woods? (And quite a few others in similar positions).

    Personally, I would encourage my client to go for it and wish him well. You may end up getting the call anyway somewhere down the road.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2017 11:21
    In the beginning it was just overall uneveness in tone and touch. A little hammer work, a little voicing, a little action work and he was happy again. For about six months. The next visit he was unhappy with the change in tone across the bass break. Not a problem to clean up. But by then I'm imagining he was just suffering buyers remorse and continues to sort of listen too closely for things to be bothered by and he doesn't really want me to keep up on it. I think the Bösendorfer warmth is just not something he enjoys. Which is fine. He's been threatening to replace it for years so it's not a surprise that this is happening. What's surprising is what he's replacing it with.

    And honestly, all things considered, I think I would be able to maintain the Fazioli at the level he would allow and enjoy. I would not, however, be able to maintain it at the level the store owner and his tech would approve of. 

    This has been an interesting discussion. We'll see how it eventually plays out next year. Or if he even follows through with the purchase in the first place. 


    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-06-2017 12:46
    Showboating with a super-serviceable state of the art tech everybody got to have for the piano to be at least good and a super-special reengineered or new instrument is suspicious. Is real music going on here? Best instrument I worked on recently was a 200 dollar craigslist special harpsichord that made me feel like I had neglected rococo in an old house suited for a 3 manual pipe organ the owner was willing to learn to tune.

    A virtuoso can make a spinet work like a 9 footer.

    The most Lang Lang ever impressed me was with the Qigong to play a clunker.
    Lang Lang gives impromptu performance for students before Pacific Symphony concert
    YouTube remove preview
    Lang Lang gives impromptu performance for students before Pacific Symphony concert
    Classical pianist Lang Lang gave a special impromptu performance on the Pacific Symphony OC Can You Play? piano painted by Carolyn Yarnell for OCHSA students participating in The John Lennon Bus mobile recording studio outside the Concert Hall.
    View this on YouTube >


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2017 11:22
    To give a little perspective on the kind of preparation given to new Fazioli's, read this post from 2012, which I wrote after attending an all day class given by the head Fazioli tech. This is only having to do with voicing. Other work is similarly meticulous. Note that Fazioli initiated string leveling (at least to the best of my knowledge - if someone knows different, please let me know).

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2017 20:17
    I'm not arguing that the Val di Fiemme wood is better. I am suggesting that you keep in mind that some part of the cost your customer is paying is for this wood. So if you denigrate the wood to your customer,  you're telling your customer that he or she is stupid, which is something true professionals try not to do.

    ------------------------------
    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2017 17:49
    Here are 3 photos of Fazioli features. If you don't like the designer spruce, maybe you'll like the adjustable keyslip or the rather elaborately designed sostonuto trap mechanism. 
    thumbnail image
    thumbnail image


    thumbnail image



    ------------------------------
    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-10-2017 10:55

    We all, I think, have agreed it is a fine piano. However, there are two general themes I see traversing this thread: 

    1-Evidence of or experience of the excellence of the instrument
    2-The emotional games required to part people from $150k.

    Geoff's original, not so much question, but thinking out loud, was feeling somewhat psyched-out by the sales hype which accompanies the fine features. He was not sure he wanted to pursue a market where sales tactics used, by necessity, to relieve folks of that much money, resemble an alpha-dog wrestling match, more than the experience many us relate to and seek, in a musical experience.

    My own take on this thread, is that the hype necessary to part folks from $150k for a piano, requires that the sales tactics create un-realisitc emotional expectations in their clients, and impossible expectations regarding the perfection of the machine.  Un-realisitc expectations means the emotional charge used to fuel the sale, cannot be satisfied, no matter how excellent the machine is. This will lead, in many cases, to buyer's remorse at the best and contract disputes at the worst.  My sensors pick this up in Geoff's description of his customer. Its not clear to me that this client will ever escape the OCD (which we all have to some degree), that causes them to fixate on an imperfection dujour.  

    This is why my rebuild sales discussions, similar to what Peter Grey described on another thread, presents the instrument as a highly worked, excellent instrument, that will not be perfect or even close to perfect. There will be warts. I explicitly compare the warts to things in a spouse you accept, even though you didn't know you were getting when you signed up for spouse-hood. One accepts them in the large scheme of things and in the imperfect nature of experience.

    I also reference the warts of my own piano, in these sales discussions. I love my 5' Chickering 122, and look forward to playing it more than any piano I service, including the Faziolis and other fine high flying instruments. However, I take them to this fine small piano, show them its real fine points, and then explicitly discuss the warts. Warts it has, and I explain and play through the warts…this, to make the point that excellent does not mean perfect.  Interestingly, even in larger performance piano projects, the strong points of this small grand, irrespective of its warts, are responsible for about 85% of my rebuild sales...(something that I find surprising and very interesting)... 

    Its very hard to make the "excellent does not mean perfect" point of inescapable human experience, when making a $150k sale. Dropping the mask to make this point, is a sure way to kill a $150k sale...so this little detail is not discussed. 

    I think Geoff's customer is setting himself up for disappointment, and unless I could get a sense that he was of a mind to get real about the reality of the machine, probably would not be busted up if the high rollers ended up with the job.

    In sum…it has nothing to do with the technician's chops, and everything to do with satisfying un-satisfy-able levels of OCD, and sales induced unrealistic expectations.  Unless…a large caveat…unless, the client's need for tribal belonging is high. If the need for tribal association is high, spending that $150k will actually trump all other concerns mentioned above. 

    I really think the price point of these instruments, places the manufacture's between a rock and a hard place...I don't envy them at all. Give my my Chickering warts and all. 



    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-10-2017 12:38
    Jim-
    Written with tremendous wisdom!
    My sense is that Kawai owners are some of the happiest.
    They bought it because it was the best piano they could afford, knowing that it was not a Hyperbole Brand piano.
    As I stabilize and voice the piano, touching up the voicing every 6 months, the piano exceeds their expectations.
    They love the piano and I get to be a hero.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2017 01:16
    Ed,
    Our web-site software needs a "Like" or "Upvote" feature so that we can more easily agree with comments or statements.
    I also like recommending Kawais, even though there might be slightly better pianos for more money (Yamaha) or much better pianos for lots more money (Steinway) I can make those Kawais perform adequately within the customer's budget.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2017 01:37
    This is just a philosophical comment, any vigorous dissent it generates is only academically intended:

    I recently tuned two Chinese $8K grands pianos.  I noted that both of them were decent and serviceable instruments, probably well worth the price and certainly deserving of more fine regulation and voicing than I could convince the customers to pay for.

    These instruments were made of essentially the same materials as every other piano: iron frame, spruce soundboard, maple action, copper wrappings, tempered steel strings, wool felts and probably used scales that were copied from other well known and highly rated instruments using manufacturing techniques similar to (or stolen from) other manufacturers.

    The major differences of these instruments from more prestigious brands were probably cheaper rim and frame materials, poorer selecting of wood quality, hasty assembly and inadequate final preparation, some of which could probably be well remedied by a competent technician, given adequate budgets and time.

    I am not recommending that my customers run out and buy cheap Chinese pianos, but all of the instruments we work on are essentially the same, save a few small but costly details.

    What is different is the expectations and available budgets for the instruments.  Steinway owners generally spend more on regulation, voicing and higher end technicians; Fazioli owners expect to pay premium prices for service and allow more time for its delivery.

    I cringe every time I hear "Yamahas are good for jazz" as that statement tells me that the tuners and technicians in my area need more training in voicing (and sales).  Brilliant or harshly raw Yamahas are much more due to budgetary limitations and inadequate voicing than any real quality of Yamahas (OK, Kawais tend to be a bit more mellow).

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-11-2017 08:23
    Talking about guitars, a friend said:
    The $100 guitar we buy today is remarkably better than the $100 guitar of 1970 (due to CAD production).
    For $500 you get a guitar that is roughly twice as good as the $100 guitar.
    For $2000 you get a guitar that is roughly twice as good as the $500 guitar.
    For $10,000 you get a guitar that is somewhat better than the $2000 ouitar.
    And thereafter and incremental improvement will be extremely costly.
    His point being that in any made object. as improvements are made, the cost curve of more improvements grows increasingly steep, and the actual improvements become less and less significant from a simple measure of performance.

    This is not considering status and investment values. which inflate prices far beyond any performance value. "From the collection of Andres Segovia"
    I would say that most of the price of Stradivari violins is because of the rarity and status value, compounded by the universal belief in the "Stradivari miracle." The higher the price goes, the greater the status value in owning a Strad.

    Just for fun, imagine what reality would be if the "Stradivari and Sons Corporation" were in existence today! How many "Violins of the Immortals" would there be on the market? All-Stradivari Schools? ....?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2017 00:56
    Having some experience with guitars I don't think I would agree but one thing is certain, if you can't tell the difference between a $500 guitar and a $10,000 guitar you may as well buy the $500 guitar.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2017 01:19
    Here is a similar discussion to his issue:
    http://commadot.com/the-cost-quality-curve/

    I ride bicycles; as your bikes get lighter the price goes up, but the weight does not go down at the same rate that price goes up; more expensive bikes are only a little lighter.  The lightest bikes are very expensive.  At some point weight and price are unrelated as the bikes (or pianos) become collector's items.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2017 08:23
    To me, there is danger in  projecting of ones values onto the dreams/desires/wants/needs/ambitions of a customer.  "I don't think you need that" is essentially the message, without really understanding what the customer wants or needs. Labeling someones desires as stemming from OCD or "tribal" needs strikes me as over simplifying the nature of someones interest in a complex, crafted item.

    When one happens to have a competitive item or service for sale, the complications increase. How is one set of sales arguments different from the other? Cost is not always the most important factor in a purchase, so "cheaper and better, or as good or with different warts" is not automatically a better argument.

    With that perspective, one could explain away a lot...the Sears drill press has warts, but it costs a lot less then the Jet (or Delta, or whatever). I've met craftspeople who sing the praises of their $3000 drill presses and those who love their $50 yard sale finds. Who am I to judge?

    Of course, if I was selling drill presses, my view would be different. 


    ------------------------------
    Eric Johnson [RPT]
    [Eric Johnson Pianos]
    [Westport] [CT]

    203-520-9064
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Fazioli question

    Posted 09-13-2017 09:02
    I believe it's called the Law of Diminishing Returns.It applies to virtually every product in the world, guitars and bicycles among them. Extracting the last tiny bit of performance out of something is expensive. At what point a buyer opts to make a purchase is none of our business. We are not being paid by our tuning clients for financial advice. At least I'm not. We need to realize that everyone has their own sets of values and if they don't line up with ours; that's OK. I might never consider paying $60k for a pickup truck, but I'm completely fine with you doing it. The notion that we can sit in our ebony and ivory towers and state from afar that a piano buyer we have never met will certainly have buyers remorse if they buy a piano in a certain price range is preposterous in my mind. I know many people who have spent that kind of money on pianos and couldn't be happier. Remember that people who buy $150k pianos are not using their last dime to do so. If you have the money to buy the best, why wouldn't you? Part of the satisfaction of buying the best is just knowing that you have it. (yes, I know "the best" is subjective)
    I think we should all be grateful that there are evil salespeople out there who manage to be so good at their jobs that they find unsuspecting fools to buy these overpriced objects. We get to service them! I have many customers with high-end instruments that I have told over the years that I feel almost guilty for charging them for a tuning since it's such a pleasure to work on. Almost.I have also had those same people tell me that I should be charging more because it's a more expensive instrument. Go figure. 
    If you took a dozen piano players with a decent but not professional skill level and sat them in front of a line of pianos; a $10k Hailun, a $20K Yamaha, a $60k Shigeru Kawai, a $100k Steinway and a $175K Fazioli and told them to rank them in order of ascending price, do you think all 12 players would get it right? I don't. If you told them to place them in order of which they liked from least to most, they would all be right. There is no wrong answer when taste or personal preference is involved.

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    Charles Rempel
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  • 37.  RE: Fazioli question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2017 22:23
    HAH! Problem solved. He bailed on the Fazioli and, instead, bought a Steinway. Delivery next week. I'm still probably out the customer but with the Steinway at least I'm still in the game. 

    Thanks to all for your feedback and the very interesting and informative discussion.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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