**************************LONG POST*************************************
Jason,
No Problem.
I'm with you that there were many great people in the past that were able to do amazing things.
Douglas claims to make an angled rim to support an arched soundboard for a harpsichord. Also says Hill and many others claim original makers made an angled rim. I'd sure like to see some kind of documented proof on that.
Looks like Douglas has vanished though.
Some thoughts:
Since the soundboard panel on these is so thin, every instrument i have seen in a museum had a wavy soundboard. In fact, when I was working with Wm. Neil Roberts back in the early 80's, one of his original Zuckermann builds was in the shop on consignment, it had a wave that nearly touched the strings. I asked him about that, and he told me that that was perfectly normal in harpsichords and only needed to be addressed when it started to touch and buzz. He said they rarely do though. This indicates a lack of a belly rail to tail rib structure.
So it seems to me, even with an angled rim, an unsupported panel is still going to wave. So then, what difference would an angled rim make? Some? None? I think on a thin unsupported panel, a rib structure would have to go with that angled rim to maintain the crown. Is Douglas making a non-traditional harpsichord? I'd like to hear about it.
On a thin panel, grain direction perhaps becomes more important than a crown. A harpsichord in my shop right now , made by an amateur, has the grain running parallel to the spine. It cracked all the way down, right in front of the rim. Of Course!
The belly rail:
I have never seen a curved belly rail in a harpsichord. I have an extensive collection of plans/drawings from museums around the world, as well as personal inspections from all of my touring. Not in one single drawing is there a curved belly rail. Nor any mention of making it curved. Wouldn't that be an indicator of whether or not an arched soundboard was an intentional idea in the past?
Of course, I haven't studied every builder that has ever lived, so was there a particular builder that crowned their soundboards?
Perhaps, Douglas has some photos of his work with crowning a harpsichord soundboard? That would be interesting!
-Chris
#caveman
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A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.
chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
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Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2018 13:13
From: Jason Leininger
Subject: Earliest crowned soundboard
Chris,
Sorry, probably should have said it differently. I guess I just get tired of the implications that people of the past couldn't do much right or well compared to what we can do today with technology. Many of those craftsmen could do with hand tools what we could only dream of accomplishing with modern technology. The proof is everywhere if you look at the history of the arts.
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Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2018 08:25
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Earliest crowned soundboard
Jason,
How about just state your case, rather than throwing out a bait question?
BTW, Happy New Year!
-chris
#caveman
------------------------------
A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.
chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2018 00:24
From: Jason Leininger
Subject: Earliest crowned soundboard
Chris,
Are you suggesting that it would be difficult for these master craftsmen to achieve a consistent bevel with a hand plane?
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Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2018 18:36
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Earliest crowned soundboard
But what proof does Mr.Hill offer to back up that claim? If true, having a few photos of the bevel in the actual historical instruments would not be difficult. Further, since machining was by hand, there would have to be consistency of the bevel.
-chris
------------------------------
A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.
chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2018 11:22
From: Douglas Laing
Subject: Earliest crowned soundboard
According to the builder Keith Hill and a few others, they recommend making a slight bevel on the soundboard rails so that it will tend to crown on its own. This is according to what Keith discovered investigating old instruments. I did this to mine and it came out great. I have a very slight crown. I will never have to worry about the soundboard warping down and cracking.
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Douglas Laing
Tuner/Technician
Tampa FL
727-539-9602
Original Message:
Sent: 12-29-2017 23:14
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Earliest crowned soundboard
Concerning harpsichords, their soundboards (the historical ones and those that follow that model) are not crowned, and can't be, as their ribs are used to stiffen the part of the board that mostly doesn't resonate (bass to tenor near the belly rail). The board is unsupported under the bridges, and most often that portion is pressed into a sort of trough, as the wood is on the order of 3 mm thick, and can't resist the downward pressure of the strings.
In pianos, ribs running under the bridges became necessary to counteract the increasing tension of strings. When soundboards were glued up (ribs attached), the boards would generally be dried to avoid cracks. Hence, compression crowning (as it tends to be called these days) may have simply happened as a byproduct of normal construction procedure, and then was later made part of a theoretical model.
Downbearing is related, but separate. It is necessary to have coupling of the string to the board through the bridges, and the most common way with most musical instruments (violin family, for instance) is to have the bridge interrupt the strings at a significant angle. (Note that the violin has considerable crown, and also a post to support the soundboard at the bridge, its other end resting on the hardwood back). There are other coupling methods that don't require down bearing, including bridge agraffes, but the standard offset double pinned bridge system also does a good job of this, without a real need for down bearing.
As you mention, there are flat carbon fiber boards, and reverse crowned boards, both of which are successful at coupling with strings and moving air. There are also lots of boards that were originally crowned when manufactured, but are now flat or very nearly so (including virtually all grands I have examined in New Mexico), and which are also functioning quite satisfactorily.
Those are just a few observations to point out that the issue is by no means cut and dried. There are several theoretical systems, and it isn't clear that any one system is obviously the best. I think tradition plays the biggest role here.
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Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2017 17:17
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Earliest crowned soundboard
Okay, here's one for the historians among us:
Does anyone know the earliest mention (preferably in print) of the use of a positively (upward against the string pressure) crowned soundboard? Particularly as regular, normal procedure in manufacture?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe harpsichords use a crowned board, nor any of the other early keyboards such as clavichord, spinet, etc. In fact I'm not so sure that early square grands used a crowned board.
There are pianos with flat boards, and reverse crown boards, etc. We have designs with lots of crown, "double crowning", minimal crown, etc. We have CF boards with no crown.
So where and when did the SB (as we have come to accept it today) get started? We tend to put a lot of emphasis on the crown. Some have incredibly complicated theories about this. Is it, in fact, absolutely necessary?
Pwg
P.S. I do have a theory, but I will wait to see what others have to say about it.
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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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