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Earliest crowned soundboard

  • 1.  Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 17:18
    Okay, here's one for the historians among us:

    Does anyone know the earliest mention (preferably in print) of the use of a positively (upward against the string pressure) crowned soundboard? Particularly as regular, normal procedure in manufacture?

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe harpsichords use a crowned board, nor any of the other early keyboards such as clavichord, spinet, etc. In fact I'm not so sure that early square grands used a crowned board.

    There are pianos with flat boards, and reverse crown boards, etc. We have designs with lots of crown, "double crowning", minimal crown, etc. We have CF boards with no crown.

    So where and when did the SB (as we have come to accept it today) get started? We tend to put a lot of emphasis on the crown. Some have incredibly complicated theories about this. Is it, in fact, absolutely necessary? 

    Pwg

    P.S. I do have a theory, but I will wait to see what others have to say about it.

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 12-24-2017 17:26
    This has been discussed before. There's most likely no way to know for sure. In the last discussion the best educated guess was that chickering was the first due to the development of the kiln.
    -chris






  • 3.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2017 19:11
    How do I find the previous discussion?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-29-2017 23:14
    Concerning harpsichords, their soundboards (the historical ones and those that follow that model) are not crowned, and can't be, as their ribs are used to stiffen the part of the board that mostly doesn't resonate (bass to tenor near the belly rail). The board is unsupported under the bridges, and most often that portion is pressed into a sort of trough, as the wood is on the order of 3 mm thick, and can't resist the downward pressure of the strings.

    In pianos, ribs running under the bridges became necessary to counteract the increasing tension of strings. When soundboards were glued up (ribs attached), the boards would generally be dried to avoid cracks. Hence, compression crowning (as it tends to be called these days) may have simply happened as a byproduct of normal construction procedure, and then was later made part of a theoretical model.

    Downbearing is related, but separate. It is necessary to have coupling of the string to the board through the bridges, and the most common way with most musical instruments (violin family, for instance) is to have the bridge interrupt the strings at a significant angle. (Note that the violin has considerable crown, and also a post to support the soundboard at the bridge, its other end resting on the hardwood back). There are other coupling methods that don't require down bearing, including bridge agraffes, but the standard offset double pinned bridge system also does a good job of this, without a real need for down bearing. 

    As you mention, there are flat carbon fiber boards, and reverse crowned boards, both of which are successful at coupling with strings and moving air. There are also lots of boards that were originally crowned when manufactured, but are now flat or very nearly so (including virtually all grands I have examined in New Mexico), and which are also functioning quite satisfactorily.

    Those are just a few observations to point out that the issue is by no means cut and dried. There are several theoretical systems, and it isn't clear that any one system is obviously the best. I think tradition plays the biggest role here.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-01-2018 11:23
    According to the builder Keith Hill and a few others, they recommend making a slight bevel on the soundboard rails so that it will tend to crown on its own.  This is according to what Keith discovered investigating old instruments.  I did this to mine and it came out great.  I have a very slight crown.  I will never have to worry about the soundboard warping down and cracking.

    ------------------------------
    Douglas Laing
    Tuner/Technician
    Tampa FL
    727-539-9602
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-01-2018 18:36
    But what proof does Mr.Hill offer to back up that claim? If true, having a few photos of the bevel in the actual historical instruments would not be difficult. Further, since machining was by hand, there would have to be consistency of the bevel.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-02-2018 00:25
    Chris,
    Are you suggesting that it would be difficult for these master craftsmen to achieve a consistent bevel with a hand plane?

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-02-2018 08:25
    Jason,
    How about just state your case, rather than throwing out a bait question?
    BTW, Happy New Year!
    -chris
    #caveman

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-02-2018 09:34
    So is it being suggested that an otherwise flat board was glued onto a beveled rim in an attempt to control what would happen over time? (IOW keep it from going the "wrong" direction).

    Or is it being suggested that they glued an already compression crowned board onto a beveled rim in an attempt to preserve the crown?

    Evidently someone somehow decided that a crowned, ribbed board was "better" than a flat, ribbed board.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-02-2018 13:14
    Chris,
    Sorry, probably should have said it differently. I guess I just get tired of the implications that people of the past couldn't do much right or well compared to what we can do today with technology. Many of those craftsmen could do with hand tools what we could only dream of accomplishing with modern technology. The proof is everywhere if you look at the history of the arts.

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-03-2018 08:47
    **************************LONG POST*************************************
    Jason,
    No Problem.
    I'm with you that there were many great people in the past that were able to do amazing things. 

    Douglas claims to make an angled rim to support an arched soundboard for a harpsichord. Also says Hill and many others claim original makers made an angled rim. I'd sure like to see some kind of documented proof on that.

    Looks like Douglas has vanished though.

    Some thoughts:
    Since the soundboard panel on these is so thin, every instrument i have seen in a museum had a wavy  soundboard. In fact, when I was working with Wm. Neil Roberts back in the early 80's, one of his original Zuckermann builds was in the shop on consignment, it had a wave that nearly touched the strings. I asked him about that, and he told me that that was perfectly normal in harpsichords and only needed to be addressed when it started to touch and buzz. He said they rarely do though.  This indicates a lack of a belly rail to tail rib structure.

    So it seems to me, even with an angled rim, an unsupported panel is still going to wave. So then, what difference would an angled rim make? Some? None? I think on a thin unsupported panel, a rib structure would have to go with that angled rim to maintain the crown. Is Douglas making a non-traditional harpsichord? I'd like to hear about it.

    On a thin panel, grain direction perhaps becomes more important than a crown. A harpsichord in my shop right now , made by an amateur, has the grain running parallel to the spine. It cracked all the way down, right in front of the rim. Of Course! 

    The belly rail:
    I have never seen a curved belly rail in a harpsichord. I have an extensive collection of plans/drawings from museums around the world, as well as personal inspections from all of my touring. Not in one single drawing is there a curved belly rail. Nor any mention of making it curved. Wouldn't that be an indicator of whether or not an arched soundboard was an intentional idea in the past?
    Of course, I haven't studied every builder that has ever lived, so was there a particular builder that crowned their soundboards?  
    Perhaps, Douglas has some photos of his work with crowning a harpsichord soundboard? That would be interesting!
    -Chris
    #caveman







    ​​

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-03-2018 18:21
    Re: beveling the inner rim or soundboard liners. 

    Before putting too much faith in this practice I suggest building a simple mock-up of a soundboard assembly and test it. The parameter of conventional soundboard systems is too flexible for this practice to contribute to the overall curvature of the system. It's a nice idea in theory but it doesn't work out in practice. 

    ddf

    --
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 13.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-03-2018 19:32
    Thank you Del.  Always a pleasure to hear from you.
     
    Lar
     
     





  • 14.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-03-2018 18:15

    I've addressed this multiple times in the various classes I do that include discussions about soundboard design and structure. I've probably also written about it but I'm not going to try to find the references.

     

    I have not been able to find any early theoretical basis for the practice. It seems to have just appeared on the scene as an accepted fact-we see some soundboards with crown, they work, therefore all soundboards need crown.

     

    Prior to the 1920s the only adhesives available for joining wood-to-wood surfaces were made from constituents of animal hides, hooves and bones. These glues had to be applied hot. If they were applied to a cold substrate they started to cool rapidly and gel-weakening the bond. Hence the practice of heating the substrate was developed. With limited production this could be done individually: a panel could be stuck in the hotbox for a little while until it was hot enough, removed and ribs glued in place. Done carefully the soundboard panel might not be in the hotbox long enough to have changed dimension appreciably. There might or might not be any residual crown in the system.


    But as production demands increased the practice of maintaining a stock of pre-heated panels came into common use. These panels might spend anywhere from hours to days in the hotbox prior to being ribbed. They would shrink to some stable point depending on the temperature and relative humidity in the hotbox. Now when the ribs were glued on and the assembly returned to whatever "normal" atmosphere might be, the panel would expand-or try to-and a stress interface would build up between the surface of the ribs and the soundboard panel causing it to warp. "Warp" is not a good marketing term, of course, so a new term had to be invented and that word was "crown."

     

    Different manufacturers seemed to each have their own standard-if there were any standards at all. The earliest written record I have found of this practice (in English, at least) is Wolfenden's: "... arch the bars in the usual curvature, keep the board warm at, say, 100° to 120° F, for a few hours to shrink it. Place it on a frame or board hollowed out a trace deeper than the curve of the bars, and while the board is hot glue the bars down." Not a very precise process but there sure as hell was going to be some "curvature" in there. 


    --
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 15.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-03-2018 18:36
    Del, 

    What you have published on this subject is precisely why I asked the question. I have a hard time believing that these guys sat down and reasoned out that they could improve the tone, sustain, character, etc of their pianos by purposely inducing a "crown" equal to the radius of a 60 ft circle...

    It makes more sense that what they were really after was stiffness (as you have said repeatedly), and all they had to work with was wood, therefore they figured out a proportional method for ribbing that would strengthen the panel, but not add so much weight that it deadened the sound, and "accidentally" happened (somewhat as you describe) upon this crowning (which they found further stiffened the panel AND seemed like a controllable method of preserving it) and subsequently found that the pianos were sounding better. 

    All in all I do believe it was an accident that seemed to work (though a reverse crown actually seems to make more sense from a long term standpoint).

    Many seem to attribute nearly magical properties to the method or amount of crown, when in reality if the board can be stiffened sufficiently (without adding weight) it can perform quite admirably. 

    That's my theory anyway. Can't prove it at this time but...

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-03-2018 20:57
    *****Caution for mature audiences********
    Del,
    Nice story.
    Probably some truth in there, but it's pure speculation. I mean really.
    Even crediting Wolfenden as the earliest source is way off. Wolfenden 1916, Hansing 1888 that's almost 50 years just there. Hansing goes on to explain that the process was already long established. Hot rooms, crowning, he explains the whole process. 

    Peter,
    Iv'e been studying this a long time, i am leaning towards a man named Johann Jacob Goll as the inventor of the modern soundboard back in Vienna around 1823. Goll was known for his many upon many soundboard experiments with wood, iron, copper and even parchment soundboards. I would not be surprised if there were many patents in Vienna and Germany that would shed light on this. But I don't have access to those.

    The idea that the soundboard came about by accident is a silly notion, most likely a result of lacking historical facts.

    Believing in "magical qualities" Peter? Hardly. For instance in past posts, i have tried to explain to you a way of controlling the stiffness. Well, at least a way that works for me. But, just like a magic trick, if you don't understand how it works, then it seems like "magic". But in reality, there is a lot of science and planning behind it. The magic trick that is.

    BTW, ancient harpsichord builders had a trick in an attempt to have the soundboard stay somewhat arched. 
    During construction and before the soundboard is glue in, they would glue a dowel inside (a temporary soundpost if you will) slightly higher than the liners. This way the board was slightly "crowned" when glued in. Then the dowel was removed. Sometimes in some very high quality photos of ancient instruments you can see the mark left behind. Now, if that is considered crowning, then most likely Cristofori was the first. 

    -chris





    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-03-2018 21:41
    Chris,

    So if it wasn't somewhat "accidental" I'm interested in how they went about devising the crown. I should think it could be deduced from what things have actually been written.  Clearly you thinking the same lines. (I think).

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-03-2018 23:10
    The earliest comprehensive account of piano making I know of was written by Carl Kützing in 1833, Theoretisch-praktisches Handbuch der Fortepiano-Baukunst. He wrote a longer book in 1844, Das Wissenschaftliche der Fortepiano Baukunst. I don't think either has ever been translated into English. 

    There is another remarkable and very comprehensive book in Italian, by Giacomo Sievers (actually born in Russia, but built pianos in Italy), Il Pianoforte . . . from 1868.

    I have not had the time to read through any of these books - only delved in to find some specific topics, mostly about tuning history - so I can't tell you exactly what they say about soundboard manufacture, except that they are detailed in most respects, so they probably cover the processes and theories pretty thoroughly. In any case, if you are interested, that's where I would advise starting to look.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2018 00:06
    Chris,
    I have to say that my reading of Hansing is different from yours. He describes many different approaches to soundboards - materials used and experimented with, with ribs or without, laminated, etc., etc. Interesting, but not very helpful in answering a technical question about crowning soundboards, and the theory behind that. He does describe the process of "compression crowning" (and beveling rims), but also states that "it is not always the case that an arched sounding board works better than a flat one."

    1888 is 28 years before the 1916 of Wolfenden, not 50 as you state. Wolfenden is far more theoretical and practical in his writing, where Hansing is more of a reporter, describing and touching on lots of possibilities.

    Johann Jacob Goll as the inventor of the modern soundboard? He did reportedly experiment with use of metal and other materials for soundboards, and also with a design that placed the soundboard above the hammers (reversed, strings below soundboard, hammer striking the strings upward toward the board), but I haven't seen any evidence of anything else he left as a legacy, certainly nothing concerning basic soundboard design that other people copied. I'd be interested to know what your sources are. (Mine are Heinrich Welcker von Gontershausen (1870, Der Clavierbau in seiner Theorie, Technik und Geschichte), Hansing, and Rosamund Harding (1933, The Piano-forte)). 

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-04-2018 13:41
    *********LONG POST*********
    Fred,
    Thank you for the math correction. It looks like i rounded off too much. LOL  And thanks for the other sources listed, i'll have to look into those.
    When I built my piano from scratch, i had to do much research before starting, So as a consumer, i had to read many different authors and works to acquire enough knowledge to have confidence that the job would get done.
    So from that perspective:
    Wolfenden was practically useless and just plain outdated.
    Del Fandrich articles seemed more interested in proving his intellectualism rather than give useful and practical info.
    Nick Gravagne articles just beat around the bush too much to be useful. Bonanno my arse.
    I'm probably being a bit too harsh here, as those guys are super nice in person (at the conventions), but their writings just don't click with me.
    Hansing on the other hand was for me eye opening, and it's shocking his book was written that long ago. Unlike Wolfendens books, it's very easy to read and still reads well.

    David Rubenstein's book is so far the best that I have read, it is practically a step by step book on how to design and build a piano. I wish it that it had been available when i started.

    Since i did my research years ago, i am just going by memory, so i can't list any sources that you haven't.  As i stated up front, no one knows who invented the modern soundboard and the processes that go with it. It could have had a single inventor, it may have taken several to improve upon each other, but it looks like intentional  not accidental to me.
    -chris


    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2018 14:29
    The majority of books about piano design and construction are in German. A more current one (1990s) is Ulrich Laible's Fachkunde Klavierbau. It builds on a very long and detailed tradition (back to Kützing). 

    Siever's book (1868) is quite detailed, going as far as describing all the tools and their uses, the making of varnish, etc., etc. Quite fascinating (but in Italian).

    William Braid White wrote Theory and practice of pianoforte building in 1906.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-06-2018 15:08
    On the subject of building your own piano, there is a bit of a tradition of that within PTG. Steve Jellen, for instance, built maybe 40 pianos, I think mostly consoles (I tune one of them every December and June). He followed in the tradition of Charles Frederick Stein, who, in addition to running his own piano factory for a period, also built pianos in his own shop, test models for the most part, and encouraged others who worked for Pratt Read to do the same. 

    In 1974, at the instigation of Jellen, a piano was constructed/assembled at the PTG convention in NYC, with the assistance of Wally Brooks and Frank Stopa. It was raffled off, won by Ernie Weissenborn. Wally Brooks will present a class based on that project at the coming Lancaster convention:

    Building a vertical piano in a small shop.

    Description: Learn about the construction of a vertical piano including the back, pinblock, bridges, action and making of keys along with a little PTG history. We will use slides, models and the very piano made for a special 1974 convention class by Steve Jellen, Frank Stopa and Wally Brooks. Great class for all.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-07-2018 01:06
    Sievers book is great. It would be nice if an english translation became available. Here is a link to read it free online.

    http://www.worldcat.org/title/pianoforte-guida-pratica-per-costruttori-accordatori/oclc/23512592

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-07-2018 01:13
    Sorry the first link I posted for the Sievers book was wrong. Here it is.

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miua.1466882.0001.001;view=2up;seq=136;skin=mobile

    ------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    Pittsburgh PA
    412-874-6992
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-08-2018 22:07
    I would describe the White book as a big nothing burger. I downloaded the Seiver book and am currently reading through it ( thanks to the listening of all those Italian operas! and google). Love all the diagrams!!
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2018 15:52
    Of course my answer was/is pure speculation. If I had any concrete information to share I'd have done so. But this is a question I've been asking (old) factory bellymen starting back in the 1970s to no avail. I've been reading everything I can find on the subject, again to no avail. I've been asking piano historians to no avail. If anyone has any solid, factual information on the subject, I'd love to see it.

    ddf

    --
    Delwin D Fandrich
    Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.
    Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide
    6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA
    Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525





  • 27.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-08-2018 22:35
    From the Seiver Book.
    Any ideas what it is??

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-08-2018 23:32
    Another interesting drawing from the Seiver book.

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Earliest crowned soundboard

    Posted 01-08-2018 23:36
    stagionamento dei legni per mezzo del vapore.
    seasoning of the woods by means of steam.

    ------------------------------
    A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
    His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
    The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
    But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------