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Damper Sockets from Hell

  • 1.  Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2018 16:45

    Resetting damper timing at the damper levers is routine. With the setscrew loose, set the damper lever height where you want it, run the set screw back in against the wire, and tighten it firmly. The most that will happen is that a head will twist, and that's a routine correction. Not on this 1963 Stwy M.

    While resetting an extremely early damper timing to coordinate it with a fresh action regulation, I found ten setscrews completely frozen in their barrels. I replaced 8, and 2 more were happy with new set screws (from what I had on hand). I did some wire bending to get the wires slipping nicely in the damper posts , and also decided to replace all the original set screws (with bunged-up heads and shallow blade slots) for new from Stwy NY. Then the nightmare began.

    About halfway into the barrels, the run-down torque increased dramatically. And it got noisy, like the sound of squeaking bed-frame springs, or a duck talking to itself ( - minus the "q" but with the opening diphthong  "ua"). In fact, the tight grip between the two threads completely masked the set-screw arrival at the wire. With out this feedback, the only sign that the wire was locked down was a twisted head.

    But even after realligning head (with a final tighten on the screw for good measure), there were still a dozen or so which, after a few minutes, would let their levers drop down. On these, the only tightening I felt sure of was with vice grip pliers biting down hard on the screw heads. The only test I felt comfortable with was rotating the heads 10º degrees 1.) to make sure that with this, no screws would decide to mysteriously loosen up, and 2.) to confirm that they all snapped back firmly. There was no "sproing" noise to be heard , but it was definitely visible.

    I did test to see if there was anything about the combination of the original barrels and the new setscrews. With a new setscrew in one of the 8 originally frozen barrels, the screw turned down beautifully and locked a damper wire firmly. So it wasn't the extreme run-down torque at work here.

    I don't trust this situation. Has anyone else hard this nightmare? (Believe my, I already eliminated a few possibilities.)  

    TIA



    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2018 19:49
    I luckily have never encountered anything like this. Would it be easier to simply replace the barrels, or would removal and fitting be issues?

    The worst I had was a set without brass barrels, just larger than normal set screws in wood. The empty screw hole behind the damper wire  was big to match the hole in front, so once tightened, the damper wires would bend into the holes. It was really eventful removing those dampers! Once they were out, I straightened the wires and installed new barrels with their matching new set screws.

    I'm glad I only met this arrangement once.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2018 20:49

    Would it be easier to simply replace the barrels, or would removal and fitting be issues?
    Susan Kline,  03-11-2018 19:49
    Hi Susan, 
    That could be it. Now that I've put it in writing <G>, the possibility occurs to me that the holes for the barrels are too small for them, and the maple posts are squeezing the barrels and the threads. There was only one of them which was so loose in the hole that I couldn't get the screw started (without it rotating or walking out the backside) unless I had the damper wire in the post. This would explain why one of the frozen barrels behaved normally outside of the post.

    As far as replacing or fitting, that's a delicate matter because all the owner knew was that I was resetting the damper timing in accordance with the fresh regulation. Now, I'd be coming after him to say that not only does he need new barrels, but while we're at it, the DGR needs redoing and I don't like that chose of damper felts (flat front&back damper felts all the way down through the tenor to the next-to-bottom one). And based on the rebushed DGR, the damper heads will have to be re-spaced anyway ( … we're talking back to Square One).

    What I'm thinking of is heating the barrels (in place) with a #6 or 7 bridge pin. (I measure 0.086", to avoid the threads.) It would just be a question of how much the pins would expand under an alcohol flame. (Heck, the pins could even be red hot.) A long shot. But the situation is easy to demonstrate to him. And he's so happy with the rest of the piano anyway…


    The empty screw hole behind the damper wire  was big to match the hole in front, so once tightened, the damper wires would bend into the holes.
    Susan Kline,  03-11-2018 19:49
    (giggle…) This sound's like some factory's solution to wire set screws directly in the posts, in such a way the over tightening wouldn't immediately split the post in half.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-11-2018 20:59
    And when I get back there, I can bring along the number drill-set (or transfer punches), and show him what the socket hole is like with the barrel in the post, and outside. I mean, it's a 1963. How close would tolerances have been at the start of the CBS era.

    Bill

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-12-2018 10:22
    I have run into a similar situation with the new screws for the little brass plates on old uprights with the brass tongue type flange. It seems the threads on the new screws didn’t match the threads in the brass tongues and would start, but bind quickly without tightening the plate to the tongue. Perhaps the threads on your new screws don’t match the threads in the barrels on your dampers? Just a wild guess here, but a possibility.




  • 6.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-12-2018 11:55
    Bill -
    You're theory about pressure is imaginative but I suspect the problem is more prosaic.  I can't find my metric thread gauge right now, but the threads on the screws is between 40-42 tpi-range.  They work fine in the aluminum barrels, even when I put them under considerable pressure with a 6-inch bench vise.  On the other hand, they do what you describe in the few older brass bullets (ones with one closed end).  I would determine the exact thread size of the screws and then try re-tapping the bullets with the correct micro-tap.  It could be that the drilling out of the damper wire hole distorted the threads enough to cause this.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 7.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-12-2018 04:21
    Bill  ---If you feel that the existing barrels don't match the holes drilled for them, and/or that the set screws don't match the threads of the barrels, just replacing them with new barrels, while a lot of work, is probably less annoying than trying to get them to work.

    For the back action I had to deal with, which had no brass in it, the work of replacement wasn't too bad. I took the back action home to the bench, turned it around so the underlevers were supported, clamped the assembly to the bench, and then I chose a drill bit which would give an exact and smooth fit for the new brass barrels. Luckily the existing holes were slightly smaller instead of slightly larger than what I needed. I used an "eggbeater" hand drill to give better control, and it took little time and gave no headaches at all. The hardest part of the whole operation was getting the dampers with the bent wires to come out.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-12-2018 01:35
    Bill,
    If the screw becomes hard to drive halfway into the barrel and squeaks I strongly suspect you have threads that don't match and no amount of lubricant or alignment will help.  You need to find the correct thread or replace the barrels.  If other screws have bunged up slots this suggests mismatched thready have been a long standing problem.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-12-2018 08:23
    Thanks, Blaine, for the suggestion of mismatched threads. Two things don't support this idea (one already mentioned). 1.) One of the frozen barrels, when outside of the post, behaved nicely with a brand new setscrew. 2.) It's hard to believe that after decades of a standard thread, before and after 1963, all of a sudden the thread changes to something different (and then changes back at some later point). If this were the case, the number of techs stumbling across this would be much greater than one (me).


    ---If you feel that the existing barrels don't match the holes drilled for them, and/or that the set screws don't match the threads of the barrels, just replacing them with new barrels, while a lot of work, is probably less annoying than trying to get them to work.
    Susan Kline,  03-12-2018 04:20
    A good point. Whether simply installing new barrels or changing the fit between the original barrels and their holes (either by removing/reaming/re-inserting or some thermal approach), the steps are the same. All the thermal approach would get me would be the ability to accomplish the fitting with the barrels in place, a negligible saving. (But I wouldn't bet on that without a small engineering study.) I'm expecting that the change required in the hole (from a force-fit to a proper press-fit) would be minor, and to avoid overshooting, I'd use a #18 or 19 straight-shank reamer, hand-held in a spare chuck. But I  do have to confirm that the barrels' thread are operating on a squeezed diameter.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-12-2018 11:30
    A  hard spot to be in I sympathize fully. While certainly more time consuming, I believe new replacement top levers/flanges/posts are available from Tokiwa through Pianotek. I have resolved never to do another damper job in those Steinway damper actions from the 60's and 70's. Too frustrating and time consuming. New damper actions make this so much easier (I realize maybe not an option in this case) and now they are available with capstans from Renner.

    My 0.02.

    ------------------------------
    David Brown
    Dallas TX
    214-288-9413
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  • 11.  RE: Damper Sockets from Hell

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-12-2018 20:16
    It IS a thread mismatch. Under a strong light, with a magnifying visor, it's clearly seen that, starting with crest-to-crest, after six turns, the new screw's crest have moved to the old screw's valley. What confused me was that when a new screw and an old barrel was a perfect fit. But an old screw and a new barrel was not. The screws are the wrong thread.

    The creaking I heard putting in the new screws was the thread in the original barrels damaged by the old screws. (Uuaack, Uuaack!)

    (I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the NY factory when the workers noticed this and started to complain to the foremen. A chance missed, to learn some new swears.)

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------