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silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

  • 1.  silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2014 13:12
    Does anyone know the proper CS for silicone oil to be used to treat sluggish Wurlitzer flange bushings? Your preferred source for the stuff (seems to be quite expensive)?
    Thanks,

    -------------------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-29-2014 13:36
    About 30 years ago I picked some up some silicone from Yamaha. I'm not sure if I ever used any.
    I would suggest that you do the the methanol/water treatment first. Then follow up with a lubricant if a few stubborn centers persist.
    The Wurlitzer recommendation in 1965 (the heyday for tight action centers) was 2 parts methanol to 1 part water.

    Tom Gorley
    Registered Piano Tuner
    650-823-7166 cell
    www.tomgorleytuning.com


    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2014 14:17
    Hi Tom,
    I dosed them all with Protek CPL first, and it "helped", but Wurlitzers were a special case (softer bushing felt, more fiber drag, as I recall).
    I just hit a couple 10 g + stragglers with methyl alcohol, and will see if it helps. My recollections was that the Wurlitzer bushing felt was probably pre-treated with silicone at the factory, and would be less reactive to the alcohol/water regimen.

    -------------------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    -------------------------------------------


    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-29-2014 14:55
    Patrick,

    I have attempted using that silicone stuff, and equally, the Protek stuff.

    The only lasting repair is re-pinning from my experience.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv
    [Visual Tuning Platform User]
    [iRCT & OnlyPure ]

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-29-2014 14:05
    On 6/29/2014 12:11 PM, Patrick Draine via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Does anyone know the proper CS for silicone oil to be used to treat
    > sluggish Wurlitzer flange bushings? Your preferred source for the
    > stuff (seems to be quite expensive)? Thanks,

    See if Baldwin still supplies it first.

    I have a genuine Zahn cup and measured the viscosity of the equally
    genuine Wurlitzer stuff some years back. Nearly as I could tell, it was
    about 1000 Cts if I did it right. Here's a source, but it sounds like
    you've already found some.

    http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S-Z-Silicone_Oil_1000_Cts.html

    Chuck Burbach, thinking of pre-mixed quantity, ordered a gallon from
    Baldwin way back when and found himself with five lifetime's worth. We
    split it up among the chapter, and Chuck broke even plus a very few
    bucks and ended up with what he wanted in the first place. A gallon is a
    lot, and far fewer techs use silicone now than they did then, so if you
    can get smaller quantities, it's handier. Still, $42 and freight makes
    about $3 a half pint if it can be split up at a BYOB chapter meeting,
    which ain't bad.

    If you can't get real specs on the viscosity, I'd guess lighter rather
    than heavier. It'll cost more per use, but it's a safer approach.

    If you do get real specs, please be the first to post them here for
    those of us who do try to keep records on such things.
    Ron N


    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2014 14:26
    Wow, ESCO's price per pint is more than your source's gallon price! I was thinking 5 CS would be appropriate ("water thin"); I'll keep your suggestion of 1000 CS in mind!
    Yeah, I will try Baldwin tomorrow.
    -------------------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    -------------------------------------------


    Original Message


  • 7.  RE:silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-29-2014 15:35
    Garfield Center pin lubricant has never failed me. I know it is old stuff but it always frees up the frozen bushings. Please post if there are good reasons other than personal preference , why this product is never mentioned.

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    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    -------------------------------------------



    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-29-2014 20:14
    Thomas,

    I know why I never mention Garfield Center Pin Lubricant to free sluggish center pins. With the advent of Protek Center Pin Cleaner Lubricant, it became a no brainer using something that actually worked more than not.

    If you are having extreme success with Garfield's, hats off to you.

    It just didn't cut in the world I experienced for all the years when it was the only thing available. Success rate of freeing sluggish center pins as I remember it was less than 50%, and I am being generous with that comment.

    Protek was a monumental leap forward in initially freeing center pins, always with the caveat of longevity.

    Sincerely,

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv
    [Visual Tuning Platform User]
    [iRCT & OnlyPure ]

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE:silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-29-2014 20:58
    Keith thanks for your reply to my Garfield Center pin lubricant question. Even though Garfield has never let me down I tried to stay abreast of newer products such as ProTek Center Pin Lubricant and Cleaner/ProTek Lube.
    I should consider myself lucky because Garfield has pulled off some miraculous fixes in this Alabama humidity and I have never had a call back.


    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    -------------------------------------------



    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-30-2014 01:38
    A while back I picked up some silicone oil from a remote control hobby store, so you might try picking some up at one of those places. It was sold as shock absorber fluid for remote control cars. It was about as thick as mineral oil. I bought some to fool around with and see how well it would work. I haven't really used it enough to have a really clear idea of its effectiveness. 

    One thing I can say is that I don't usually notice key friction problems in old Wurlitzer school pianos that I service. The bushings seem to stay slick after many years of use. I've assumed they used some sort of silicone in the bushings. One issue I have is that Del Fandrich is in my chapter and he hates the idea of silicone even being in the same room as the piano! Supposedly it has a tendency to travel and get into places it shouldn't. 

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    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
    -------------------------------------------


    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-01-2014 10:26
    100 centistoke (viscosity) is what Wurlitzer supplied via Dupont,  We purchased it in 5gal lots and it was expensive over 20 years ago.  Mixture was a pint per gallon of VM&P Naptha.  Who really freaked out in the Baldwin factory was the finishing department, because of causing fish-eye.  I had to keep it and package it from an abandoned small building out back of the factory.  Ironically, the fish-eye preventative that you added a drop to your spray gun full of lacquer was silicone or so I heard from a reliable source.  I still have some if the need arises on a Wurlitzer with a sticky action, but haven't used it in years now.  An alterative might be to mix some from a spray can with some VM&P Naptha. I certainly would not recommend it straight out of the can.  I've also added about 10% silicone from a spray can to VS Profelt from Pianotek for centers when forced to.  All this being said it's still best to repin if the piano is of any quality at all, and lubrication will not help the Asian piano with the chronic tight center problem. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Lonnie Young
    Petal MS
    601-582-9229
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-29-2014 16:35
    On 6/29/2014 1:26 PM, Patrick Draine via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Wow, ESCO's price per pint is more than your source's gallon price! I
    > was thinking 5 CS would be appropriate ("water thin"); I'll keep your
    > suggestion of 1000 CS in mind! Yeah, I will try Baldwin tomorrow.

    I do love a bargain if it can be gotten but you don't want water thin.
    You want it thick enough to thin down to use. Mineral oil is a good
    viscosity comparison, if you can find a number for that. It was, after
    all, the coin of the realm at one time and the real stuff silicone was
    similar in texture.
    Ron N


    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-30-2014 09:55
    Patrick -
    Sorry for not knowing what CS means.  Am I in decline?
    In any case, see if you can find KEL brand pure silicone spray.  I found it in a hardware store.  Made by (for) Kellogg's Professional Products, Inc. of Sandusky Ohio.  (800) 334-2130.  They also make a food-grade version, in case you plan to eat the piano.  You can go outside and spray product into a container and after a few minutes, at most, solvent will have flashed off and remainder will be pure silicone liquid, unless there is something different about the silicone oil you speak of.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-30-2014 10:37
    On 6/30/2014 12:38 AM, Ryan Sowers via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    >
    > One thing I can say is that I don't usually notice key friction
    > problems in old Wurlitzer school pianos that I service. The bushings
    > seem to stay slick after many years of use. I've assumed they used
    > some sort of silicone in the bushings. One issue I have is that Del
    > Fandrich is in my chapter and he hates the idea of silicone even
    > being in the same room as the piano! Supposedly it has a tendency to
    > travel and get into places it shouldn't.

    Some years back on the old list, Del posted in defense of silicone as
    Baldwin uses it, and as he used it. Baldwin determined that the stuff
    doesn't take over the world, creeping everywhere, that it doesn't
    preclude gluing silicone "contaminated" parts together, that it doesn't
    gum up with age, is itself non toxic (if not the naphtha), and is
    generally quite effective as a flange lubricant. No real down side. If
    he's anti silicone in public now, I suspect it's because people don't
    know the difference between the proper mix and application, and hosing a
    piano down with any old suspected silicone in a spray can, or using
    WD-40 in the eternal belief that it contains silicone (it still
    doesn't). In such cases, by all means, please use Protek CLP and don't
    allow silicone of any sort, or WD-40 in any form, anywhere near a piano.
    People are relentlessly binary. It's 100% not allowed under any
    conditions, or 100% okay by any interpretation. The safe bet is to
    preach 100% not allowed.
    Ron N


    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Posted 06-30-2014 14:11
    All,

    The silicone aspect and treatment does not work in my experience, regardless of supposed correct mixture, nor does Garfield's Center Pin Lubricant, nor does Protek Center Pin Lubricant either, work on Wurlitzer piano action centers that are sluggish. You might get lucky, but I never have.

    Re-pinning is the only effective solution.

    So, who do you know who is willing to pay for such an extensive approach on a piano that is history, other than family heirloom reasons.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv
    [Visual Tuning Platform User]
    [iRCT & OnlyPure ]

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: silicone oil / Wurlitzer bushings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-30-2014 15:43
    Hi, Keith:
    I have a different experience with Wurlitzer pianos. I find that I often have to "work" the parts, but most of the time using Protek does work for me. Maybe it's the climate (I'm in San Diego). I've never used Garfield's. Using water/alcohol shrinking solution also works sometimes, but often gets sluggish again if there's excess moisture present.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Original Message