Pianotech

Did you check the V bar? Someone told me once that if it became loose somehow, that would cause a drop in pitch,  at least in theory.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Lompoc CA
805-315-8050
benpianopro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO

Is there any chance the piano was moved around or was located near a roaring fire place that could have dried up glue joints, loosened grip on the tuning pins ? what do the coils on the tuning pins look like ? I had a piano here that was moved from dry humidity Arizona to wet humidity coastal South Carolina. Many pins slipped and the coils looked more like candy canes with dramatic pitch drops. I also recall a Baldwin that had an apron under the bridges that had separated . It would not hold a tuning even though the tuning pins were tight, bridges had no cracks etc.

Is it possible someone tried to move the piano and it fell and cracked the plate in a place you can not see ? what are the tuning pin torque readings ? you say tight but feeling tight is not the same as the torque measurement an inch lb torque wrench will give

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO

Original Message------

Is there any chance the piano was moved around or was located near a roaring fire place that could have dried up glue joints, loosened grip on the tuning pins ? what do the coils on the tuning pins look like ? I had a piano here that was moved from dry humidity Arizona to wet humidity coastal South Carolina. Many pins slipped and the coils looked more like candy canes with dramatic pitch drops. I also recall a Baldwin that had an apron under the bridges that had separated . It would not hold a tuning even though the tuning pins were tight, bridges had no cracks etc.

Is it possible someone tried to move the piano and it fell and cracked the plate in a place you can not see ? what are the tuning pin torque readings ? you say tight but feeling tight is not the same as the torque measurement an inch lb torque wrench will give

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message------

Benjamin - I did check the v-bar, and the screws were not loose.

James - The piano has been in the same spot each time I have tuned it, and there are no heat sources (vents, or fireplace) that would dry the piano out.  You are right about getting a torque reading on the pins, but 2/3 of the pins would have had to suddenly become very loose to drop the pitch like this.  The bridges are glued directly to the board...no apron. Unless the owner is hiding the fact that he tipped the piano over, which I do not believe, that kind of trauma has not happened. The coils still look tight around the pins.  I appreciate your thoughts.  If you have any more ideas, I would love to hear them.

Richard

Original Message------

Richard,
You didn't mention nosebolts. They could possibly cause a problem if loose or torqued too much!?
Maybe they hired another tuner who lowered the pitch!? MTCW

Richard,

I'm curious as to how the owner feels about the situation. 

Do they actually use this piano much considering they have another? Would they not notice that the Steinway was going out REALLY fast in comparison?  Would they not call and say, "something seems to be wrong...can you come take a look"?  Are they interested in getting to the bottom of it?

Or am I reading too much into this and they hardly noticed?

Since thus far it is a total mystery it would be my inclination to install (at their expense of course) a DC system, acclimate, tune and monitor on a monthly basis (assuming they are willing and able to MAINTAIN the system, which can sometimes be a problem), and see what happens.

Can we assume that you have brought it back to pitch up at this point?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-28-2017 08:01
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

I also say check nosebolts.

I had a Baldwin studio with similar symptoms. Nose bolts were not threaded into the back braces. The plate was actually buzzing against bass strings.

Nancy Salmon RPT

LaVale, MD

The only way to know the torque is to use a torque wrench. I have a torque beam wrench and believe me it is worth its weight in gold.
Invest in a data logger so that you can get readings for 24 x 7 x 7 and graph the results. there may be lots of deep cycling going on with owners trying to save on heating costs. here we have the problem of ac costs and often churches and homes play with the thermostats way too much. We also have homes with some crazy locations for the ac vents like under the pianos, over the pianos in the walls about keyboard high. I have a customer with a skylight above a Knabe grand and the temps in the middle are 10 degrees or more higher.

  Colorado would seem to be prone to lots of cold weather and the need to use heat as in fireplaces, pellet stoves , infared heaters.
A full damp chaser plus additional moisture in the house via central humidification and strategic room units may help. Remember the safety range for RH is 40 to 50% rh.

Could someone be opening windows to let in fresh air or cold air ? it happens here. That is why the owner of a very nice, expensive Schimmel had rust on the strings. Under cross examination his wife admitted she opened the windows at night to get a breeze and smell ocean air.
Is it possible someone could have tried to learn to tune the piano by watching a utube video ? don't laugh. I had to fix about half dozen broken strings. the kid was a music student and got an elcheapo lever off ebay on the premise he could clean up unisons.

Finally customers are not always honest. I had a music teacher convinced that the music rack on her Boston had a defective finish.
Yes it was messed up . I got an estimate from my finish guy she said it was too much. turned out her husband had tried to spray paint the small worn spot and ruined the rest of the finish. in another case a customer called me to tune her Baldwin. when I pulled the bottom kickboard I found rusted hitch pin loops and a waterline one foot up from the floor,

How you proceed is up to  you but once you do you own it.  Has the piano ever been rebuilt ? are the tuning pins original
could the pinblock be cracked ?

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO

Richard-
A long shot: perhaps an edge of the soundboard has come loose.
What you describe is hard to imagine as anything other than a structural failure of some sort.
An approach, having gotten it clear with the owner, would be to make notes of the current pitch across the piano, then attempt to pull it to pitch. Make it clear that this is a diagnostic tuning, not something you guarantee or expect to hold pitch, but that you are looking for more evidence of how the piano behaves when normal tension  is added.
If it stays in tune, you're a hero, if not you have made it clear there is a structural failure in the piano.
You may want to have moving blankets to throw over it if the plate fails, but I have not heard of plate failure in 1098s.
Let us know what happens.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO

So far, I agree with Ed's post because a very similar situation happened to me.

I tuned a very old Mason & Risch grand piano for many years. The piano was very stable and the pitch hardly ever moved. One day, the customer called me up and told me that something had happened. The piano had drastically gone flat mostly in the middle section and less so up to the high treble. When I went over there, I was astounded. I told him I thought that something structural had happened (even though there was no visual evidence) and it was time for him to get a new piano.

After a month went by, he pleaded with me to go back and give it a try. Just before starting, I told him that the plate could crack, or any number of things could happen. He agreed.

I brought the piano up to pitch and went over it again. Amazingly, nothing happened and the piano has been fine ever since.

So now, for the Mason & Risch, I think that something had settled (don't ask me what) and perhaps it was not a structural problem after all.

Have the down bearing, crown and hitch pins been checked on the Steinway? 

Paul.

------------------------------
Paul Brown, RPT
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email: paulbrn@telus.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-28-2017 16:56
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Richard-
A long shot: perhaps an edge of the soundboard has come loose.
What you describe is hard to imagine as anything other than a structural failure of some sort.
An approach, having gotten it clear with the owner, would be to make notes of the current pitch across the piano, then attempt to pull it to pitch. Make it clear that this is a diagnostic tuning, not something you guarantee or expect to hold pitch, but that you are looking for more evidence of how the piano behaves when normal tension  is added.
If it stays in tune, you're a hero, if not you have made it clear there is a structural failure in the piano.
You may want to have moving blankets to throw over it if the plate fails, but I have not heard of plate failure in 1098s.
Let us know what happens.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO

Original Message------

So far, I agree with Ed's post because a very similar situation happened to me.

I tuned a very old Mason & Risch grand piano for many years. The piano was very stable and the pitch hardly ever moved. One day, the customer called me up and told me that something had happened. The piano had drastically gone flat mostly in the middle section and less so up to the high treble. When I went over there, I was astounded. I told him I thought that something structural had happened (even though there was no visual evidence) and it was time for him to get a new piano.

After a month went by, he pleaded with me to go back and give it a try. Just before starting, I told him that the plate could crack, or any number of things could happen. He agreed.

I brought the piano up to pitch and went over it again. Amazingly, nothing happened and the piano has been fine ever since.

So now, for the Mason & Risch, I think that something had settled (don't ask me what) and perhaps it was not a structural problem after all.

Have the down bearing, crown and hitch pins been checked on the Steinway? 

Paul.

------------------------------
Paul Brown, RPT
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email: paulbrn@telus.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-28-2017 16:56
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Richard-
A long shot: perhaps an edge of the soundboard has come loose.
What you describe is hard to imagine as anything other than a structural failure of some sort.
An approach, having gotten it clear with the owner, would be to make notes of the current pitch across the piano, then attempt to pull it to pitch. Make it clear that this is a diagnostic tuning, not something you guarantee or expect to hold pitch, but that you are looking for more evidence of how the piano behaves when normal tension  is added.
If it stays in tune, you're a hero, if not you have made it clear there is a structural failure in the piano.
You may want to have moving blankets to throw over it if the plate fails, but I have not heard of plate failure in 1098s.
Let us know what happens.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO

You may want to return with some inspection mirrors and a good inspection scope and examine as much of the plate as you can on the front and back especially in the strut area or any obvious break . You may try examining it with a bright led headset in a darkened room or use an ultraviolet light in a dark room. . One grand piano here with a cracked plate had an area around the crack that would not hold the tension of the strings I pulled sharp in the section around the crack . you may also try using a piece of colored chaulk to see if it highlights the crack . I use chaulk on soundboards to mark the location and length of cracks . Is there any chance the room was without heat due to power loss and then the heat was cranked up high and fast ? I think you mentioned forced hot air ? That is the worst type of system because it blows hot, dry heat almost like a giant hair dryer. I lived in a home in Boston that had that type of heat and in the winter it was so dry inside it was common to have nosebleeds and lots of glue joint loosening. A Steinway grand here was next to a duct mounted through a wall blowing hot in the winter and cold in the summer. The soundboard was cracked so bad you could read a newspaper through it. Absolutely no power in the piano it had gotten so bombarded with air blasts. I hope the piano is no where near a floor, wall or ceiling vent. I have seen pianos directly sitting on floor vents or with vents between them and the wall. keep us posted

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2017 13:54
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Thank you all, for your responses and thoughtful consideration of this strange pitch problem!

Chris and Nancy- I did do a cursory check of the nose bolts on the front side and they were tight.  I will take another look at them and check the back posts again.

Peter and James- Monitoring the RH is a good idea.  There is a whole house humidifier on the furnace. The piano (the 1098) is used for daily practice by the 10-year-old son.  The father uses the L frequently. While we do have cold spells here in Colorado, it has been a warmer than usual winter, and as I mentioned before, the only source of heat is a forced air system...no fireplace, no pellet stove, etc.  I am pretty sure that the customer would tell me if an unusual change of environment had occurred.  I would also expect to see changes in the Steinway L that literally sits next to the 1098.  I have often encountered pianos that have a seasonal pitch swing of 25 cents (25 cents sharp in the summer, and a 25 cent drop when the heat goes on in November), especially those where a swamp cooler is used, but never a 65-75 cent drop in March-April.

Ed and Paul- I am inclined to think it is structural, also.  My first look at plate, posts, and soundboard did not show anything obvious, but I will look again.  I hope I will have the same success as Paul did with the Mason & Risch.

But I am really leaning toward Chris' suggestion that another tuner came and lowered the pitch!  :)

I plan to see the piano again at the end of next week.  I will report back.  Thanks, again to all of you.

Richard

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2017 13:54
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Thank you all, for your responses and thoughtful consideration of this strange pitch problem!

Chris and Nancy- I did do a cursory check of the nose bolts on the front side and they were tight.  I will take another look at them and check the back posts again.

Peter and James- Monitoring the RH is a good idea.  There is a whole house humidifier on the furnace. The piano (the 1098) is used for daily practice by the 10-year-old son.  The father uses the L frequently. While we do have cold spells here in Colorado, it has been a warmer than usual winter, and as I mentioned before, the only source of heat is a forced air system...no fireplace, no pellet stove, etc.  I am pretty sure that the customer would tell me if an unusual change of environment had occurred.  I would also expect to see changes in the Steinway L that literally sits next to the 1098.  I have often encountered pianos that have a seasonal pitch swing of 25 cents (25 cents sharp in the summer, and a 25 cent drop when the heat goes on in November), especially those where a swamp cooler is used, but never a 65-75 cent drop in March-April.

Ed and Paul- I am inclined to think it is structural, also.  My first look at plate, posts, and soundboard did not show anything obvious, but I will look again.  I hope I will have the same success as Paul did with the Mason & Risch.

But I am really leaning toward Chris' suggestion that another tuner came and lowered the pitch!  :)

I plan to see the piano again at the end of next week.  I will report back.  Thanks, again to all of you.

Richard

I am more and more inclined toward this (frame crack) as the culprit. It is what makes the most sense. Just need to look deeper with more light.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2017 18:42
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

I think the  most likely cause is a crack in a plate strut, I had one break while I was tuning a less than 10 year old Steinway P (50" or so) - sounded like a pistol shot - and the pitch result was about what you describe. I looked and looked for a crack, and would have given up if I had not heard it happen. It turned out to be behind the keybed, back in the shadows.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2017 13:54
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Thank you all, for your responses and thoughtful consideration of this strange pitch problem!

Chris and Nancy- I did do a cursory check of the nose bolts on the front side and they were tight.  I will take another look at them and check the back posts again.

Peter and James- Monitoring the RH is a good idea.  There is a whole house humidifier on the furnace. The piano (the 1098) is used for daily practice by the 10-year-old son.  The father uses the L frequently. While we do have cold spells here in Colorado, it has been a warmer than usual winter, and as I mentioned before, the only source of heat is a forced air system...no fireplace, no pellet stove, etc.  I am pretty sure that the customer would tell me if an unusual change of environment had occurred.  I would also expect to see changes in the Steinway L that literally sits next to the 1098.  I have often encountered pianos that have a seasonal pitch swing of 25 cents (25 cents sharp in the summer, and a 25 cent drop when the heat goes on in November), especially those where a swamp cooler is used, but never a 65-75 cent drop in March-April.

Ed and Paul- I am inclined to think it is structural, also.  My first look at plate, posts, and soundboard did not show anything obvious, but I will look again.  I hope I will have the same success as Paul did with the Mason & Risch.

But I am really leaning toward Chris' suggestion that another tuner came and lowered the pitch!  :)

I plan to see the piano again at the end of next week.  I will report back.  Thanks, again to all of you.

Richard

Original Message------

I think the  most likely cause is a crack in a plate strut, I had one break while I was tuning a less than 10 year old Steinway P (50" or so) - sounded like a pistol shot - and the pitch result was about what you describe. I looked and looked for a crack, and would have given up if I had not heard it happen. It turned out to be behind the keybed, back in the shadows.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message------

Well...all of you who guessed "cracked plate" are correct!  I looked more closely, with brighter light (as Peter suggested), and exactly where Fred Sturm's photo indicated, there was a crack in the strut.  And it is between notes 53 and 54, as happened in Karl's story.  Thanks, Karl, I was able to tell my customer that cracks happen even to pianos that are new.  It is good to know the cause of the pitch drop.  Now I want to inquire about repairing (welding, or other techniques) the crack.  I am not willing to try pulling the piano back up to pitch as Paul did with his Mason & Risch!  The owner really wants to repair, rather than replace.  Attached are a couple of cell phone photos. I forgot to take my real camera.

Does anyone have a favorite repair technique, or repair person?

Thanks to all,

Richard Capp

So, theory here is that the plate has been under severe stress from day one, and it finally RELIEVED itself (of the stress of course), and is now where it wants be under the circumstances. If it was me, I would probably try pulling it up a bit and keep a close eye on the crack to see if it wants to move at all. If no movement...well why not go all the way? 

Your choices are (as I see it):

1) weld it in place using the "cold welding" technique.
2) dismantle and take I to welder 
3) metalstitch it in place
4) do nothing and ignore it

Are you thinking of dismantling it?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-05-2017 12:29
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Well...all of you who guessed "cracked plate" are correct!  I looked more closely, with brighter light (as Peter suggested), and exactly where Fred Sturm's photo indicated, there was a crack in the strut.  And it is between notes 53 and 54, as happened in Karl's story.  Thanks, Karl, I was able to tell my customer that cracks happen even to pianos that are new.  It is good to know the cause of the pitch drop.  Now I want to inquire about repairing (welding, or other techniques) the crack.  I am not willing to try pulling the piano back up to pitch as Paul did with his Mason & Risch!  The owner really wants to repair, rather than replace.  Attached are a couple of cell phone photos. I forgot to take my real camera.

Does anyone have a favorite repair technique, or repair person?

Thanks to all,

Richard Capp

I wouldn't pull it up Richard. I didn't find any cracks in the Mason & Risch grand so I took a chance. Some Mason & Risch uprights - around serial number 38,000 - 40,000 are well known for a plate strut crack around C5. A friend of mine tuned one of them and heard the famous 'rifle shot' go off. He checked the plate strut and sure enough, it had a large crack. Sometime later, he was called to tune a similar serial numbered Mason & Risch but before tuning it, he removed the action. He found the same crack in the same area. About 6 months later, I visited a store and noticed an old Mason & Risch upright at the far end of the room. Without walking near the piano, I asked the store owner if the piano had a crack in the plate strut. He stared at me in shock and asked how I could possibly know that without approaching the piano! 

I have noticed a significant strengthening of the Mason & Risch upright plate struts in the same area with serial number 41,000 or so. I really wish I had taken photos of the before and after plate design.

Paul.

------------------------------
Paul Brown, RPT
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email: paulbrn@telus.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-05-2017 12:29
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Well...all of you who guessed "cracked plate" are correct!  I looked more closely, with brighter light (as Peter suggested), and exactly where Fred Sturm's photo indicated, there was a crack in the strut.  And it is between notes 53 and 54, as happened in Karl's story.  Thanks, Karl, I was able to tell my customer that cracks happen even to pianos that are new.  It is good to know the cause of the pitch drop.  Now I want to inquire about repairing (welding, or other techniques) the crack.  I am not willing to try pulling the piano back up to pitch as Paul did with his Mason & Risch!  The owner really wants to repair, rather than replace.  Attached are a couple of cell phone photos. I forgot to take my real camera.

Does anyone have a favorite repair technique, or repair person?

Thanks to all,

Richard Capp

Mr. Capp,
Scott Jones wanted me to tell this story years ago when the Journal was running a series about first days on a new job.
  It involves the first 1098 I ever tuned at Steinway Hall. I had been there all of about a week when we got a new 1098 in the C&A dept. Franz Mohr, who was still the Chief Concert Technician at the time, looked at me and said; " You have a lot of experience on uprights. Why don't you see what you can do with it?" Well after a week of attempting to tune, and being thoroughly humbled by, the C&A grands I was really ready to get a win. The piano was really flat but pretty well in tune with itself.  I checked every imaginable part and fitting and started on the first pass of a pitch raise. I was just getting the temperment strip out and doing the unisons when I heard a loud ,dull, bang accompanied by a deep concussion in the air that I could feel in my chest. I wondered if maybe someone had just slammed a really big door nearby and went back to work. I checked a few of the octaves and found them totally wild and the unisons I had just tuned sounded worse than when I started. I pulled out my tuning fork ( a thing we used in those days to establish pitch, you can look it up ) and found the A to be 10 or 15 beats flat again. With a sinking feeling, and visions of a Greyhound Bus ticket back to Georgia, I took the action out to see if there were any visible clues as to the cause of the instability. Right where the sostenuto rail goes around the plate strut at notes 53 and 54 was a beautiful hairline crack that widened out to about 2mm near the keybed.
  The 25 feet or so from the "Lincoln" room to Franz's desk was one of the longest walks I have ever taken. " Mr. Mohr, I think that the plate just cracked on the piano you gave me to tune" was the sentence that I figured would be the last one I uttered as an employee  of Steinway & Sons.  Franz Mohr and Ron Coners were sitting at the desk together when I came in and announced my failure as a technician and a human being. Their response has stayed with me for the last 27 years. They both burst out laughing. "Really?!" asked Mr. Mohr. " I have never seen this!" Mr. Coners called all of the other techs in the department to come over and we all went back to the 'Lincoln" room together to survey the damage. Once everyone had a chance to see the crack and offer their individual assessments Mr. Mohr put his hand on my shoulder and said; "This was not you fault. The piano is made to be tuned." And then with a grin; "Try not to break the next one".
  I don't know if your 1098 has experienced a plate strut failure that resulted in the pitch drop you've reported. It might be worth a look. I do know that if you are lucky enough to be involved with people of great compassion and possessed of a working sense of humor, both you and the piano's owner are going to be just fine.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO

I think we have all seen Steinways that showed evidence of "less than ideal" attention to one or more nosebolts or plate screws. Although surprising, this story doesn't really surprise me.  Very interesting! 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2017 19:41
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

Mr. Capp,
Scott Jones wanted me to tell this story years ago when the Journal was running a series about first days on a new job.
  It involves the first 1098 I ever tuned at Steinway Hall. I had been there all of about a week when we got a new 1098 in the C&A dept. Franz Mohr, who was still the Chief Concert Technician at the time, looked at me and said; " You have a lot of experience on uprights. Why don't you see what you can do with it?" Well after a week of attempting to tune, and being thoroughly humbled by, the C&A grands I was really ready to get a win. The piano was really flat but pretty well in tune with itself.  I checked every imaginable part and fitting and started on the first pass of a pitch raise. I was just getting the temperment strip out and doing the unisons when I heard a loud ,dull, bang accompanied by a deep concussion in the air that I could feel in my chest. I wondered if maybe someone had just slammed a really big door nearby and went back to work. I checked a few of the octaves and found them totally wild and the unisons I had just tuned sounded worse than when I started. I pulled out my tuning fork ( a thing we used in those days to establish pitch, you can look it up ) and found the A to be 10 or 15 beats flat again. With a sinking feeling, and visions of a Greyhound Bus ticket back to Georgia, I took the action out to see if there were any visible clues as to the cause of the instability. Right where the sostenuto rail goes around the plate strut at notes 53 and 54 was a beautiful hairline crack that widened out to about 2mm near the keybed.
  The 25 feet or so from the "Lincoln" room to Franz's desk was one of the longest walks I have ever taken. " Mr. Mohr, I think that the plate just cracked on the piano you gave me to tune" was the sentence that I figured would be the last one I uttered as an employee  of Steinway & Sons.  Franz Mohr and Ron Coners were sitting at the desk together when I came in and announced my failure as a technician and a human being. Their response has stayed with me for the last 27 years. They both burst out laughing. "Really?!" asked Mr. Mohr. " I have never seen this!" Mr. Coners called all of the other techs in the department to come over and we all went back to the 'Lincoln" room together to survey the damage. Once everyone had a chance to see the crack and offer their individual assessments Mr. Mohr put his hand on my shoulder and said; "This was not you fault. The piano is made to be tuned." And then with a grin; "Try not to break the next one".
  I don't know if your 1098 has experienced a plate strut failure that resulted in the pitch drop you've reported. It might be worth a look. I do know that if you are lucky enough to be involved with people of great compassion and possessed of a working sense of humor, both you and the piano's owner are going to be just fine.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-27-2017 12:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Precipitous Pitch Drop

A 1980 Steinway 1098 (45" studio) that I have tuned three times in the last 1.5 years has suddenly dropped 65-75 cents in pitch since the last tuning on February 24, 2017.  Pitch on the bass bridge strings has dropped 20 cents. The piano is in a customer's home, and sits next to a Steinway L which has changed 2-4 cents in the same two months.  It seems like a structural failure, but I can see no sign of cracks or fissures in the plate, no separation between plate and pinblock, no cracks or loose glue joints in the back posts or soundboard. The bridges have no splits. The tuning pins are tight. The perimeter bolts (screws) are tight.  The humidity variation from February to April has been c. 10%.  My history with the piano is that in July 2015 I raised the pitch 15-25 cents; February 2016, raised bass 1-2 cents, middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents; February 2017, raised bass 1-3 cents,  middle 4 cents, treble 8 cents. And now a sudden, large drop.  David, at Steinway Tech Department was puzzled, and had no suggestions.  Any ideas, those of you who have a lot of experience with 1098s?  Thanks!

Richard Capp, RPT

Boulder, CO