Pianotech

Does lacquer destroy tension in a hammer?  Judge for yourself.  The hammer on the left received two applications of Pianotek's Hammer Lac (30% solution).  It was allowed to cure for about 4-5 days.  It might be noted that lacquer continues to harden for a quite a bit longer than that.  This is a medium strength solution for that particular lacquer.  A razor blade was then used to slice down through the crown on both hammers (Ronsen Wurzen).  What was a nicely tensioned hammer is now a hammer whose voicing can only be controlled by controlling the density of various parts of the hammer.  The resilience of the hammer as it is associated with tensioned felt is gone and cannot be recaptured.  This has an impact on the coefficient of restitution of the hammer, how quickly the hammer restores it's shape post impact, as well as the degree to which the hammer is able to fully recover.  This has pretty serious repercussions for tonal development and stability.  

In a treble hammer, of course, the applications are often stronger.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

David,

Your observation was predictable. For many years I have observed that understanding by developing a "work around". When you completely saturate the hammer with chemicals (lacquer or acetone/keytop material) you can "paint" yourself into a corner by diminishing the tension. I deviated from that "100% saturation philosophy by using hardener on the crown and shoulder but leave the center area untouched. I accomplish this by applying acetone/keytop (heavy concentration of keytop to acetone) material to the shoulders for low end power, and lacquer (up to the thickness of molasses) to the crown. Both the acetone/keytop material and the lacquer in that state don't wick into the mid section of the hammer where you need to maintain tension for good tone. This is a thumbnail description, but with practice you can learn to vary the concentrations and the applied area given the tension and density of the hammer felt.

------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2015 16:04
From: David Love
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Does lacquer destroy tension in a hammer?  Judge for yourself.  The hammer on the left received two applications of Pianotek's Hammer Lac (30% solution).  It was allowed to cure for about 4-5 days.  It might be noted that lacquer continues to harden for a quite a bit longer than that.  This is a medium strength solution for that particular lacquer.  A razor blade was then used to slice down through the crown on both hammers (Ronsen Wurzen).  What was a nicely tensioned hammer is now a hammer whose voicing can only be controlled by controlling the density of various parts of the hammer.  The resilience of the hammer as it is associated with tensioned felt is gone and cannot be recaptured.  This has an impact on the coefficient of restitution of the hammer, how quickly the hammer restores it's shape post impact, as well as the degree to which the hammer is able to fully recover.  This has pretty serious repercussions for tonal development and stability.  

In a treble hammer, of course, the applications are often stronger.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Does lacquer destroy tension in a hammer?  Judge for yourself.  The hammer on the left received two applications of Pianotek's Hammer Lac (30% solution).  It was allowed to cure for about 4-5 days.  It might be noted that lacquer continues to harden for a quite a bit longer than that.  This is a medium strength solution for that particular lacquer.  A razor blade was then used to slice down through the crown on both hammers (Ronsen Wurzen).  What was a nicely tensioned hammer is now a hammer whose voicing can only be controlled by controlling the density of various parts of the hammer.  The resilience of the hammer as it is associated with tensioned felt is gone and cannot be recaptured.  This has an impact on the coefficient of restitution of the hammer, how quickly the hammer restores it's shape post impact, as well as the degree to which the hammer is able to fully recover.  This has pretty serious repercussions for tonal development and stability.  

In a treble hammer, of course, the applications are often stronger.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Does lacquer destroy tension in a hammer?  Judge for yourself.  The hammer on the left received two applications of Pianotek's Hammer Lac (30% solution).  It was allowed to cure for about 4-5 days.  It might be noted that lacquer continues to harden for a quite a bit longer than that.  This is a medium strength solution for that particular lacquer.  A razor blade was then used to slice down through the crown on both hammers (Ronsen Wurzen).  What was a nicely tensioned hammer is now a hammer whose voicing can only be controlled by controlling the density of various parts of the hammer.  The resilience of the hammer as it is associated with tensioned felt is gone and cannot be recaptured.  This has an impact on the coefficient of restitution of the hammer, how quickly the hammer restores it's shape post impact, as well as the degree to which the hammer is able to fully recover.  This has pretty serious repercussions for tonal development and stability.  

In a treble hammer, of course, the applications are often stronger.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Yes, it was meant more as a reminder than a revelation.

Your bounce test addresses the issue more directly, I think.  Daniel Russell has written several interesting articles on hammers as non-linear springs and articles on a related topic, the coefficient of restitution.  One interesting note about the COR is that the higher it is, the faster the object in question rebounds after an elastic collision (which is what a hammer/string impact is).  The faster the object rebounds not only does it bounce high (or farther) but, even more important for us, the shorter the time that the object is in contact with whatever it collided with.  I the case of a hammer, shorter contact time with the string means fewer filtered high partials, the note will be brighter.  Somewhat counterintuitively, the more force that is applied (the faster the hammer travels) the shorter the duration of contact.  Thus more force equals not only a louder note, but one with more high partial development, as it should be.  When the hammer remains somewhat flexible, you will get brightness without harshness at high dynamic levels--a desirable thing in my opinion.

The problem I have with the type of application that Roger and Paul cite is that it creates a hammer whose consistency is hard at the strike point and softer below the surface.  Thus the development of high partials doesn't follow a natural progression aligned with increasing force.  The hardness at the surface of the hammer tends to create high partial development when the note is played softly but it doesn't develop consistently with increasing amounts of force.  To me this creates a reverse gradient both as a baseline and in effect.  

What I want is a hammer that is darkest at pianissimo and progressively brighter (increasing amounts of high partial development) as it moves toward fortissimo.  In order for that to happen the hammer must not only get progressively stiffer the more you compress it, but the hammer string contact time must be progressively and smoothly decreasing with increasing force. A hammer that has a hard crown and relatively soft core won't do that.  At times you can get a dip in partial development as you progress through the dynamic range: it can be brighter at pianissimo and darker at louder levels.  The excess compression of the hammer with increasing amounts of force (because it's basically too soft underneath) can contribute to that.  

While it may be better than a full saturation of the hammer, for various reasons, it doesn't give me what I want in a hammer which is progressive and coincident development of dynamics and partials.   

In my view lacquer simply doesn't belong in a hammer unless the hammer is defective, meaning it isn't performing as it was designed to.  

------------------------------

David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2015 16:50
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Did I miss something (again)? Has someone actually suggested that
lacquering a hammer DIDN'T destroy it's internal tension? I've had
someone inform me that when you put ribs on a severely dried panel and
let it rehydrate that the panel was not under stress any longer because
the two parts had become one and therefor stress free, so I guess it's
really no more far fetched to claim that welding a hammer's felt
together internally retained the tension. Truthfully, the tension is
still there, but it's thoroughly ossified and forever unavailable in
function. It's sort of the reverse of the soundboard hallucination, but
just as mistaken. A trampoline with a 2" concrete cap poured on top
still has springs. I've tried your experiment by bouncing hammers rather
than cutting them. It's not hard to tell them apart by both rebound
height and thump pitch.

I always saw lacquer in hammers as a sort of high partial sieve. The
music stays in the hammer, and the clang is celebrated, when a little
firmer hammer would have produced some of the music too. I have ruined a
set or two of hammers with lacquer in times long past, and made highly
marketable sounds as a result.

Good demo.
Ron N

Yes, it was meant more as a reminder than a revelation.

Your bounce test addresses the issue more directly, I think.  Daniel Russell has written several interesting articles on hammers as non-linear springs and articles on a related topic, the coefficient of restitution.  One interesting note about the COR is that the higher it is, the faster the object in question rebounds after an elastic collision (which is what a hammer/string impact is).  The faster the object rebounds not only does it bounce high (or farther) but, even more important for us, the shorter the time that the object is in contact with whatever it collided with.  I the case of a hammer, shorter contact time with the string means fewer filtered high partials, the note will be brighter.  Somewhat counterintuitively, the more force that is applied (the faster the hammer travels) the shorter the duration of contact.  Thus more force equals not only a louder note, but one with more high partial development, as it should be.  When the hammer remains somewhat flexible, you will get brightness without harshness at high dynamic levels--a desirable thing in my opinion.

The problem I have with the type of application that Roger and Paul cite is that it creates a hammer whose consistency is hard at the strike point and softer below the surface.  Thus the development of high partials doesn't follow a natural progression aligned with increasing force.  The hardness at the surface of the hammer tends to create high partial development when the note is played softly but it doesn't develop consistently with increasing amounts of force.  To me this creates a reverse gradient both as a baseline and in effect.  

What I want is a hammer that is darkest at pianissimo and progressively brighter (increasing amounts of high partial development) as it moves toward fortissimo.  In order for that to happen the hammer must not only get progressively stiffer the more you compress it, but the hammer string contact time must be progressively and smoothly decreasing with increasing force. A hammer that has a hard crown and relatively soft core won't do that.  At times you can get a dip in partial development as you progress through the dynamic range: it can be brighter at pianissimo and darker at louder levels.  The excess compression of the hammer with increasing amounts of force (because it's basically too soft underneath) can contribute to that.  

While it may be better than a full saturation of the hammer, for various reasons, it doesn't give me what I want in a hammer which is progressive and coincident development of dynamics and partials.   

In my view lacquer simply doesn't belong in a hammer unless the hammer is defective, meaning it isn't performing as it was designed to.  

------------------------------

David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Piano hammer design was never originally intended to function as non-linear spring--tension only becomes an issue once hammer mass exceeds the design and functionality of the action geometry. Once the hammer mass exceeds the limits of functionality, hammer tension becomes a necessary crutch/bandaid for that specific situation (i.e., when using overweight hammers). When the system is setup within the limitations of the design, hammer tension becomes a non-issue (i.e., there is nothing that tension adds to the equation that cannot/shouldn't be accomplished without it). Tension can help, but it is not the secret to sound.

Ironically, I agree with everything that was written--except for tension being the fundamental way that it is accomplished (i.e, tension only plays a role when the hammers are overweight). When the hammers are within the design limitations of the system, the hammers easily voice out as described without any internal hammer tension.

The most beautiful singing, melodic tone comes [surprisingly] from a "dead" non-spriningy hammer. If anyone would like to compare samples/recordings, I am happy to make an example of a note that accomplishes/outperforms the tonal objectives described of the tension hammer (i.e., if someone else will produce a recording of a tension hammer example).

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Jim,

check out

Five lectures on the Acoustics of the piano

Royal Swedish Academy of Music

This volume contains five lectures given at a public seminar at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, May 27, 1988. The lectures are based on accumulated experience in piano design as well as recent experimental and theoretical studies -all presented in a popular style.

The seminar day was preceded by two days of discussions between the lecturers and invited representatives from piano manufacturers. Two representatives from Steinway & Sons, Daniel T. Koenig, Vice President of Manufacturing, and William Y. Strong, Director of Research and Development, joined the speakers in a closing panel session at the seminar, answering questions from the audience and pondering future improvements in piano design

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-26-2015 21:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Jim,

check out

Five lectures on the Acoustics of the piano

Royal Swedish Academy of Music

This volume contains five lectures given at a public seminar at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, May 27, 1988. The lectures are based on accumulated experience in piano design as well as recent experimental and theoretical studies -all presented in a popular style.

The seminar day was preceded by two days of discussions between the lecturers and invited representatives from piano manufacturers. Two representatives from Steinway & Sons, Daniel T. Koenig, Vice President of Manufacturing, and William Y. Strong, Director of Research and Development, joined the speakers in a closing panel session at the seminar, answering questions from the audience and pondering future improvements in piano design

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-26-2015 21:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Google "Hooke's Law", or "properties of linear springs".  You will learn that a linear spring is an ideal never realized in real life.  All springs are non linear, to varying degrees.  The question is not "is a hammer a non-linear spring", but "what is the nature of the hammer's non-linearity".  That's what we're messing with when we voice a hammer.

------------------------------
Michael Spalding
Fredonia WI
262-692-3943
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-26-2015 21:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

That's exactly right!  We can change the non-linear coefficient, as it were--the rate at which the spring displaces with added units of force.  That's much of what voicing is.  We have specific tonal targets that are associated with the hammers non linear characteristics and to complicate things, those targets change both depending on where in the scale they fall and with respect to what the hammer must do in those specific parts of the scale.  

It's a beautiful thing.  

And manipulating a density gradient, as in a non-tensioned hammer, is really a way of creating a faux non-linear spring.  It's not the same and a big part of the difference has to do with the restorative power of the spring that is lost when it is no longer a spring, or the so-called coefficient or restitution.  The performance of the hammer in how it decompresses is just as important as how it compresses.   

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-26-2015 22:15
From: Michael Spalding
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Google "Hooke's Law", or "properties of linear springs".  You will learn that a linear spring is an ideal never realized in real life.  All springs are non linear, to varying degrees.  The question is not "is a hammer a non-linear spring", but "what is the nature of the hammer's non-linearity".  That's what we're messing with when we voice a hammer.

------------------------------
Michael Spalding
Fredonia WI
262-692-3943
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-26-2015 21:17
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

David L< The performance of the hammer in how it decompresses is just as important as how it compresses.  

Why?  What is the synchronous relationship between string and hammer restitution?  This, as a function of string/hammer contact time and deformation.  Does hammer de-compression occur while still in contact with string, (depending upon where in scale)?  I know you may have already said as much, but I'm trying to understand how the string interprets (read) the difference between density (hardness/limited strike point deformation) and the spring model.  (I'll finish reading Russell.  Maybe answer is already in there.)
------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY

-

Because the higher the rate of restitution, the shorter the contact time. Shorter contact time means less filtering of frequencies whose period is less than or equal to the contact time itself. More high partial development can be achieved with a hammer that might deflect more but has a higher restitution rate. In simpler terms brighter with less harshness at upper dynamic levels. The more flexible hammer with a high restitution rate "cushions" a hard blow more but gets off the string more quickly. In contrast, a less flexible hammer will produce high partial energy when it's hard, but when you soften it to reduce attack harshness at higher dynamic levels you lose more high partial energy from filtering because you can't introduce higher restitution rates in hammers that are compromised that way already.

The goals in voicing are largely to control the relationship between the attack and sustain phase of the tonal envelope *plus* insuring that each step in the dynamic ladder (ppp-fff) is accompanied by ever increasing high partial development (my underline).  Though I rarely, if ever, hear it stated that way. We certainly don't want ppp and bright, and fff and dark (which can be produced by drops of lacquer on the crown of the hammer only). The performance of the more flexible (and tensioned) hammer with a higher restitution rate will be different from a less tensioned hammer with less flexibility and a low restitution rate in this respect.  The former will give a better opportunity to achieve those stated goals. 

That's why. 

P.S. You wont find it stated that way in Russell's writings but several articles of his and others were very helpful in my being able to draw those conclusions and express it in that way.

The first question that must be answered is why do we voice. When you can answer that then other things start to fall into place. The answer to the question, btw, is not a physical one such as "to open up the hammer", it's a tonal one.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 00:14
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David L< The performance of the hammer in how it decompresses is just as important as how it compresses.  

Why?  What is the synchronous relationship between string and hammer restitution?  This, as a function of string/hammer contact time and deformation.  Does hammer de-compression occur while still in contact with string, (depending upon where in scale)?  I know you may have already said as much, but I'm trying to understand how the string interprets (read) the difference between density (hardness/limited strike point deformation) and the spring model.  (I'll finish reading Russell.  Maybe answer is already in there.)
------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY

-

Couple of things:

Thanks for the chance to walk and work through some of these ideas, which many of you have spent much more time living with than I.  In asking questions, I'm not being skeptical,  I'm trying to clarify, for myself.  The challenge is to avoid asking things that have already been answered, or which would likely reveal themselves with a little more time spent with the various source materials.  In reality though, I'm more inclined to ask the obvious and risk some derision. 

David L> The answer to the question [why do we voice] is not a physical one such as "to open up the hammer", it's a tonal one.

While, ultimately, the point is about tone, I think it might be helpful to defer addressing the larger purpose, and prolong our dalliance with the physical modeling, even if it remains  theoretical.  

I'm not sure all of what David has put forth here is clear to me, as per these thoughts:  

- controlled density gradient as a faux-spring (non-linear or otherwise).  Can 'faux' work?

- difference between restitution coefficient  (de-compression) of a 'tensioned' and 'non-tensioned' hammer

- compression with and without tension  (even non-tensioned hammers demonstrate some 'bounce' characteristic

My question remains - what is the relationship between the hammer restitution and the string's own spring response on the period of contact time?  For any particular level of force, can a 'faux-spring' hammer demonstrate the same deformation (size of contact) and contact time as a tensioned hammer?  This is apart from whether said hammer can possibly have the same range of response.  

Again, I may find that the answer is already out there in the current discussion,  but this is what I'm currently wondering.

David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

David S:

You wrote: "While, ultimately, the point is about tone, I think it might be helpful to defer addressing the larger purpose, and prolong our dalliance with the physical modeling, even if it remains  theoretical."  

and "controlled density gradient as a faux-spring (non-linear or otherwise).  

What I meant was that until we determine what our tonal goals are we can't much determine how the hammer needs to perform.  I don't think I need to elaborate on this point as I've covered it previously.

Let's take "faux non-linear spring".  Here's a way to demonstrate what I mean.  Let's say we have wad of felt fiber.  We squish it in our hand and let go and it springs back.  The fiber itself has a restorative capacity.  Now let's soak this fiber with lacquer and allow it to harden.  Now we take this wad of felt and we squeeze it in our hands.  Aside from the crunchy feeling we have as we're doing that, when we release the pressure from our had we will have a crushed mass of felt.  It will not spring back at all to the same degree (if at all).  If we want to return the wad to their original state (uncrushed) we can go in with our fingers and start pulling things apart, fluffing it up, so to speak, until the fiber reaches the original volume before we crushed it. Of course when we squeeze it the next time it compacts down just the same way it did before but the more we do that and further damage the fibers, the more difficult it is to fluff it back up.  Isn't that basically what we do when we needle a lacquered hammer?  We needle away to separate the felt fibers and create something that has lower density (again and again) but the fiber doesn't really function like a spring exactly.  We substitute manipulating the density at the surface of the hammer for the spring like quality we might otherwise have.  

You wrote: "Can 'faux' work?"  

Depends what you mean by work.  I mean it produces a sound that we accept and for many people that's fine.  So it works.  But I don't think it's optimal (for reasons previously stated) nor is it stable (as I've just described).

You wrote: "- difference between restitution coefficient  (de-compression) of a 'tensioned' and 'non-tensioned' hammer"

I think the tension in a hammer contributes to it's restorative capacity.  I am deducing this from combinations of various articles on the subject and related subjects.  I don't know of a particular article that says hammers with more tension necessarily have a higher restorative capacity.  However, I will say that hammers whose tension has been altered (like with lacquer) do have a diminished restorative capacity.  There have been some articles in the PTJ recently that have discussed this.  Galembo's articles allude to this I believe, but I'll have to review them again.  

You wrote: "My question remains - what is the relationship between the hammer restitution and the string's own spring response on the period of contact time?  For any particular level of force, can a 'faux-spring' hammer demonstrate the same deformation (size of contact) and contact time as a tensioned hammer?  This is apart from whether said hammer can possibly have the same range of response."

For this answer you will need to look at the science of elastic collisions along with the coefficient of restitution.  One interesting article that Russell (again) wrote is on baseballs (baseballs also perform as non-linear springs). Nonlinear Models of Baseballs and Softballs

With respect to the COR, the higher the COR the shorter the contact time between the ball and the bat and increases in force will result in not only higher "escape" velocities of the ball but shorter contact time between the ball and the bat.

This article by Russell also address some of the issues that Del Fandrich mentioned in his work to measure the non-linear coefficient  in a hammer (F=kx^p, similar to Hooke's law but "p" is the non-linear coefficient.     

Donald Halls contribution to the 5 lectures is also worth reading as a starting place if you haven't The hammer and the string

In the end finding a relationship between the hammer performance and tone generation is what is important.  There are obviously many things that "work", they produce something we recognize as piano sound.  But I'm not interested in a hunt for anything that might "work" in this respect.  Have you seen demonstrations of "compass point voicing", a radical method to deal with hammers that are otherwise unworkable (David Stanwood used to have a demo of this on youtube).  The tone it produces is acceptable to some and certainly better than the tone being produced that called for that treatment.  But it is less than ideal for various reasons, some I've discussed previously.

Sorry, a bit all over the place in these replies.  It's hard to contribute much more on this subject in this format.  Maybe I'll give a class on it again someday if I'm asked.  It's of special interest to me.  Voicing remains a topic driven mostly by descriptions of procedures but short on goals.  Until we come to some consensus about where we're going it's pretty hard to discuss how to get there.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------
-----------------------

David L ;

Thanks for the effort.  While I think that the discussion about faux springs could use some additional refinement (it doesn't comport with how I was visualizing), you've provided enough other material that will keep me busy for a while. 

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

David S:

I wouldn't get too hung up in my choice of phrasing "faux springs", I really just meant to point out the difference between an elastic hammer, one that flexes in a spring like way, and one that is not really very elastic at all but simply has a gradually increasing density as you progress into the hammer from the crown.  The later would be the character of a lacquered and crown needled hammer.  They will differ in terms of their partial recipe (recipe of partials, that is), and how they perform at different dynamic levels.  The performance can be measured (and heard) both in terms of partial development and the relationship between the attack and sustain part of the tonal envelope from ppp-fff.  While it's difficult to extrapolate the effect over the entire piano from only a couple of samples it can be done with some adjacent note comparisons--I do this all the time for the benefit of customers who are looking for something better and who have exhausted all voicing protocols.  What constitutes or qualifies as the type of hammer I'm referring to (elastic, high COR, *and* appropriate mass for each section) is another discussion.  Most hammers do not fall into this category, in my opinion. However, some are better than others.  I don't really want to go into this here.

No, Mr Snook, I don't intend to make a cell phone recording to try and illustrate the differences but it's easy enough to put on different types of hammers that fall into these two camps and either listen or measure them yourself.  

 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 17:58
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David L ;

Thanks for the effort.  While I think that the discussion about faux springs could use some additional refinement (it doesn't comport with how I was visualizing), you've provided enough other material that will keep me busy for a while. 

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Mr. Snook,

I don't know you. From your posts I can see that you are both highly intelligent and highly opinionated.  Neither qualities are something I can fault you for.  I don't know Mr. Skolnik well.  I have however seen his work.  I am also aware of the impressive body of work he has amassed in one of the most prestigious and difficult venues in America.  I have also known a few of the many technicians he has mentored over the years.  He has earned the respect of his peers and this community.  I for one would be grateful if you would in future confine your remarks toward him and others on this list within the bounds of the respect one gentleman accords another.

Karl Roeder

Pompano Beach, FL

David S:

I wouldn't get too hung up in my choice of phrasing "faux springs", I really just meant to point out the difference between an elastic hammer, one that flexes in a spring like way, and one that is not really very elastic at all but simply has a gradually increasing density as you progress into the hammer from the crown.  The later would be the character of a lacquered and crown needled hammer.  They will differ in terms of their partial recipe (recipe of partials, that is), and how they perform at different dynamic levels.  The performance can be measured (and heard) both in terms of partial development and the relationship between the attack and sustain part of the tonal envelope from ppp-fff.  While it's difficult to extrapolate the effect over the entire piano from only a couple of samples it can be done with some adjacent note comparisons--I do this all the time for the benefit of customers who are looking for something better and who have exhausted all voicing protocols.  What constitutes or qualifies as the type of hammer I'm referring to (elastic, high COR, *and* appropriate mass for each section) is another discussion.  Most hammers do not fall into this category, in my opinion. However, some are better than others.  I don't really want to go into this here.

No, Mr Snook, I don't intend to make a cell phone recording to try and illustrate the differences but it's easy enough to put on different types of hammers that fall into these two camps and either listen or measure them yourself.  

 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

That's unfortunate, Mr. Love, that you are unable/unwilling to demonstrate or specifically describe the differences that you think comes from tensioned hammers that you think can't possibly come from a non-tensioned hammer. The challenge was very simple: one single note that demonstrates the uncompromised sound of tension hammer, which you think is not possible with a non-tensioned hammer. A show-and-tell would have been a great learning opportunity. After all, I cannot demonstrate what you are unable to do with a non-tensioned hammers; I can only demonstrate that non-tensioned hammers can, in fact, do it better.

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------

------

Life is full of disappointments.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Because the higher the rate of restitution, the shorter the contact time. Shorter contact time means less filtering of frequencies whose period is less than or equal to the contact time itself. More high partial development can be achieved with a hammer that might deflect more but has a higher restitution rate. In simpler terms brighter with less harshness at upper dynamic levels. The more flexible hammer with a high restitution rate "cushions" a hard blow more but gets off the string more quickly. In contrast, a less flexible hammer will produce high partial energy when it's hard, but when you soften it to reduce attack harshness at higher dynamic levels you lose more high partial energy from filtering because you can't introduce higher restitution rates in hammers that are compromised that way already.

The goals in voicing are largely to control the relationship between the attack and sustain phase of the tonal envelope *plus* insuring that each step in the dynamic ladder (ppp-fff) is accompanied by ever increasing high partial development (my underline).  Though I rarely, if ever, hear it stated that way. We certainly don't want ppp and bright, and fff and dark (which can be produced by drops of lacquer on the crown of the hammer only). The performance of the more flexible (and tensioned) hammer with a higher restitution rate will be different from a less tensioned hammer with less flexibility and a low restitution rate in this respect.  The former will give a better opportunity to achieve those stated goals. 

That's why. 

P.S. You wont find it stated that way in Russell's writings but several articles of his and others were very helpful in my being able to draw those conclusions and express it in that way.

The first question that must be answered is why do we voice. When you can answer that then other things start to fall into place. The answer to the question, btw, is not a physical one such as "to open up the hammer", it's a tonal one.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

A shorter hammer contact time with the string is primarily a function of the weight of the hammer assembly and the ability of the action geometry to accelerate it to maximum velocities. Attempting to control hammer contact time with hammer tension, and the resultant rebound "spring," is extremely limiting. Once the weight of the hammer assembly exceeds the action geometry's ability to accelerate the hammer to maximum velocity, the hammer contact time with the string begins to increase (i.e., the maximum overall hammer velocity becomes slower--which means the hammer will stay in contact with the string longer). Hammer weight, not hammer "spring," is the key to this tonal equation.

Modern science has investigated piano hammers and classically described the observations in terms of the hammers behaving like non-linear springs. Those are valid scientific observations, but the real-world tonal implications of those observations are limited to a non-linear spring's ability to absorb impact, not specifically in terms of a tension hammer's ability to store potential energy to push off of the string faster. Hammer tension, and the resultant felt spring, will never overcome the mass of an overweight hammer; a lighter hammer [performing within the design limitations of the modern action] will rebound faster from the strings at the loudest dynamics than if a tensioned overweight hammer is used. It is the faster traveling hammer speeds of the action geometry appropriate hammer weights that ensure a rebound time that is faster than the non-linear spring tension of the tension-felted hammers.

It is possible to make lighter tensioned hammers, which will also travel at maximum impact velocities, but the additional increase in rebound speed due to the "spring" is tonally most apparent in the ppp end of the spectrum [not the fff end]. An action geometry appropriate hammer weight produces a very clear ppp tone with tensioned hammers--the result is that there is much less colour contrast throughout the dynamic ladder. This can be great for a concerto setting, but is highly ineffective in a solo piano recital setting.

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 03:09
From: David Love
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Because the higher the rate of restitution, the shorter the contact time. Shorter contact time means less filtering of frequencies whose period is less than or equal to the contact time itself. More high partial development can be achieved with a hammer that might deflect more but has a higher restitution rate. In simpler terms brighter with less harshness at upper dynamic levels. The more flexible hammer with a high restitution rate "cushions" a hard blow more but gets off the string more quickly. In contrast, a less flexible hammer will produce high partial energy when it's hard, but when you soften it to reduce attack harshness at higher dynamic levels you lose more high partial energy from filtering because you can't introduce higher restitution rates in hammers that are compromised that way already.

The goals in voicing are largely to control the relationship between the attack and sustain phase of the tonal envelope *plus* insuring that each step in the dynamic ladder (ppp-fff) is accompanied by ever increasing high partial development (my underline).  Though I rarely, if ever, hear it stated that way. We certainly don't want ppp and bright, and fff and dark (which can be produced by drops of lacquer on the crown of the hammer only). The performance of the more flexible (and tensioned) hammer with a higher restitution rate will be different from a less tensioned hammer with less flexibility and a low restitution rate in this respect.  The former will give a better opportunity to achieve those stated goals. 

That's why. 

P.S. You wont find it stated that way in Russell's writings but several articles of his and others were very helpful in my being able to draw those conclusions and express it in that way.

The first question that must be answered is why do we voice. When you can answer that then other things start to fall into place. The answer to the question, btw, is not a physical one such as "to open up the hammer", it's a tonal one.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

There may be some valid points here, but, once again, hammer weight, geometry, and, to an extent, tone quality itself is beside the issue of the spring function of a piano hammer.   Keep in mind that

- not ALL hammers that we come across are over-weight

- it can't ALWAYS be about achieving maximum velocity, unless we're only concerned with playing loud 

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.

Hammer assembly weights that exceed c.4-5g greatly diminish the action's ability to accelerate the hammer to maximum velocities. That reduces the overall dynamic range, and more importantly, increases the hammer+string contact time. <----that's the problem (i.e., it is not a lack of tension; hammer tension is a bandaid for a problem elsewhere in the system = excessive hammer weight).

ALL modern piano hammers we come across are overweight. If the weight of the hammer assembly limits how fast the hammer can travel/repeat, then the system is being compromised and the hammers are overweight. This is specially true in the bass--unless a drastic reduction in weight happens, which would have tonal and action performance compromise, the bass hammers will never repeat like those of the descant. That is one of the many balances in the system that must be created and maintained for various reasons. Once you understand what those compromises are, and how they function, then you can better understand how to use them to a musical advantage. 

Maximum hammer velocity is not only a concern of playing loud; maximum velocity is about the tonal contrast that results from shorter hammer+string contact time of faster traveling hammers upon impact. If the overall impact speed is limited by the weight of the hammer, the hammer+string contact time is longer. Hammer tension, in most cases, is not enough to overcome these physics. 

Please, keep that in mind, in your search for a better understanding. 

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 13:50
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

There may be some valid points here, but, once again, hammer weight, geometry, and, to an extent, tone quality itself is beside the issue of the spring function of a piano hammer.   Keep in mind that

- not ALL hammers that we come across are over-weight

- it can't ALWAYS be about achieving maximum velocity, unless we're only concerned with playing loud 

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Yeah, well, for starters, there are probably between 37 and 150 ways you could have disagreed with anything and everything I said, short of
No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.  Please try to make an effort.  Just a little.  You're back in the US now.

Second,  if my first statement is wrong, that would mean that ALL hammers we come across ARE over-weight.  That's a pretty contentious (though not unique) contention, that's worthy of its own thread discussion.

And, as for maximum hammer velocity and volume: can you try again, as this does not make sense to me:

Maximum hammer velocity is not only a concern of playing loud; maximum velocity is about the tonal contrast that results from shorter hammer+string contact time of faster traveling hammers upon impact

Unless you are referring to the slower inertial response of a heavier hammer, I don't see how you are using the concept of velocity.

------------------------------

David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 15:05
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.

Hammer assembly weights that exceed c.4-5g greatly diminish the action's ability to accelerate the hammer to maximum velocities. That reduces the overall dynamic range, and more importantly, increases the hammer+string contact time. <----that's the problem (i.e., it is not a lack of tension; hammer tension is a bandaid for a problem elsewhere in the system = excessive hammer weight).

ALL modern piano hammers we come across are overweight. If the weight of the hammer assembly limits how fast the hammer can travel/repeat, then the system is being compromised and the hammers are overweight. This is specially true in the bass--unless a drastic reduction in weight happens, which would have tonal and action performance compromise, the bass hammers will never repeat like those of the descant. That is one of the many balances in the system that must be created and maintained for various reasons. Once you understand what those compromises are, and how they function, then you can better understand how to use them to a musical advantage. 

Maximum hammer velocity is not only a concern of playing loud; maximum velocity is about the tonal contrast that results from shorter hammer+string contact time of faster traveling hammers upon impact. If the overall impact speed is limited by the weight of the hammer, the hammer+string contact time is longer. Hammer tension, in most cases, is not enough to overcome these physics. 

Please, keep that in mind, in your search for a better understanding. 

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------

David Skolnik, I didn't simply state that you were wrong, my post explained exactly how and why that is the case. 

Yes, nearly all modern hammers we come across are overweight. Many times, there is a reason for that. Are you expecting me to explain each reason to you?!? Hammers are overweight when they effect the performance and response of the action. This is called a compromise. You need to have a sense of when and how that happens, if you want to understand the significance of the topic of hardeners vs. tension.

An overweight hammer in the melodic section, for example, travels at much slower maximum impact speeds than a hammer that conforms to the limitations of the action geometry in which it exists. Not only will slower maximum impact speeds result in longer hammer+string contact time, the excessive weight results in extra saturation and distortion at softer dynamics.

Go to a piano, switch some hammers around, do some voicing, and hear the results first-hand. You must learn to begin testing everything out for yourself, instead of relying on the words of others and trying to summarise whatever you think is a consensus. You need your own experience in order to promote a deeper understand. When you don't have that, it is evident in your writings and how you attempt to steer the conversation. 

Mass matters; hammer tension only matter within a very limited range--outside that range, hammer tension cannot overcome the limitations of excessive hammer mass. Hammer mass is excessive when it limits the performance and functionality of the action. 

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 15:32
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Yeah, well, for starters, there are probably between 37 and 150 ways you could have disagreed with anything and everything I said, short of
No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.  Please try to make an effort.  Just a little.  You're back in the US now.

Second,  if my first statement is wrong, that would mean that ALL hammers we come across ARE over-weight.  That's a pretty contentious (though not unique) contention, that's worthy of its own thread discussion.

And, as for maximum hammer velocity and volume: can you try again, as this does not make sense to me:

Maximum hammer velocity is not only a concern of playing loud; maximum velocity is about the tonal contrast that results from shorter hammer+string contact time of faster traveling hammers upon impact

Unless you are referring to the slower inertial response of a heavier hammer, I don't see how you are using the concept of velocity.

------------------------------

David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 15:05
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.

Hammer assembly weights that exceed c.4-5g greatly diminish the action's ability to accelerate the hammer to maximum velocities. That reduces the overall dynamic range, and more importantly, increases the hammer+string contact time. <----that's the problem (i.e., it is not a lack of tension; hammer tension is a bandaid for a problem elsewhere in the system = excessive hammer weight).

ALL modern piano hammers we come across are overweight. If the weight of the hammer assembly limits how fast the hammer can travel/repeat, then the system is being compromised and the hammers are overweight. This is specially true in the bass--unless a drastic reduction in weight happens, which would have tonal and action performance compromise, the bass hammers will never repeat like those of the descant. That is one of the many balances in the system that must be created and maintained for various reasons. Once you understand what those compromises are, and how they function, then you can better understand how to use them to a musical advantage. 

Maximum hammer velocity is not only a concern of playing loud; maximum velocity is about the tonal contrast that results from shorter hammer+string contact time of faster traveling hammers upon impact. If the overall impact speed is limited by the weight of the hammer, the hammer+string contact time is longer. Hammer tension, in most cases, is not enough to overcome these physics. 

Please, keep that in mind, in your search for a better understanding. 

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------

Mr Snook -

You're at it again, with the same ridiculous strategies.  I tried to convey (too indirectly, it seems) that you could have expressed your disagreement with me without indulging in such annihilative belligerence:    No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.  If that sounds neutral to you, you may not be the one to be discussing subtleties of tone.

And again, you moralize to me (and, by extension, others) about "steering the conversation":

You must learn to begin testing everything out for yourself, instead of relying on the words of others and trying to summari[z]e whatever you think is a consensus. You need your own experience in order to promote a deeper understand. When you don't have that, it is evident in your writings and how you attempt to steer the conversation.

No. It's you who are wrong.  You are the one who consistently insists on re-directing any conversation towards your own set of agendas.  As David Love wrote:  The discussion is mostly about the inner characteristics of the hammer, how the felt is responding.  It wasn't about whether all pianos have excessively heavy hammers.  I never made any claims.  You criticize me for attempting to clarify what is being said, or understand if there is, in fact, a discernible consensus about an issue, among collegues I respect, even if I don't always agree,(and even if such consensus proves, ultimately, flawed). Who are you to tell me I'm unworthy of seeking such clarity, until I've recreated every trial that anyone has ever done?  

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

David Skolnik, the way that I express myself is not a strategy, nor is it anything that you will ever change or influence. Get over it. Your statements were completely wrong, so I stated that fact. If that upsets you, learn to get over it. It is nothing personal, no matter how much you continue to make it that way. The information you presented was completely wrong, and thus it was stated.

That happens when one summarises others in an attempt to establish a consensus without any first-hand experience. Before you can accept anything that is written [by me, or anyone else], you need to have proven it to yourself. Otherwise, you have nothing directly to add to a discussion other than to [mis]state what others may have experienced. 

David Skolnik: We can't be talking about anything too subtle, can we?

Indeed, no, it is not subtle at all, which is why I wrote what I wrote, in exactly the way that I wrote it. I believe I can produce an example of a "dead" hammer that will musically outperform any tensioned based hammer.

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 17:39
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Mr Snook -

You're at it again, with the same ridiculous strategies.  I tried to convey (too indirectly, it seems) that you could have expressed your disagreement with me without indulging in such annihilative belligerence:    No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.  If that sounds neutral to you, you may not be the one to be discussing subtleties of tone.

And again, you moralize to me (and, by extension, others) about "steering the conversation":

You must learn to begin testing everything out for yourself, instead of relying on the words of others and trying to summari[z]e whatever you think is a consensus. You need your own experience in order to promote a deeper understand. When you don't have that, it is evident in your writings and how you attempt to steer the conversation.

No. It's you who are wrong.  You are the one who consistently insists on re-directing any conversation towards your own set of agendas.  As David Love wrote:  The discussion is mostly about the inner characteristics of the hammer, how the felt is responding.  It wasn't about whether all pianos have excessively heavy hammers.  I never made any claims.  You criticize me for attempting to clarify what is being said, or understand if there is, in fact, a discernible consensus about an issue, among collegues I respect, even if I don't always agree,(and even if such consensus proves, ultimately, flawed). Who are you to tell me I'm unworthy of seeking such clarity, until I've recreated every trial that anyone has ever done?  

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

No Bradley S.  It is personal and I will not get over it.  It's time you got a bit over yourself, if you actually expect to be engaged with, at all.
the way that I express myself is not a strategy, nor is it anything that you will ever change or influence.

You had some time away to reflect.  You've had a chance to start anew, so to speak, from what was an inauspicious beginning, and yet you come right back in with the same distorted garbage.  You are continuing to challenge my right to discuss and pose questions without having passed your particular test of qualification. 

Before you can accept anything that is written [by me, or anyone else], you need to have proven it to yourself. Otherwise, you have nothing directly to add to a discussion other than to [mis]state what others may have experienced.

Snook, this is nothing short of crap.  That you not only think this way, but have committed to the immutability of your views, suggests that you remain unprepared to be treated with respect.  And that's totally apart from whether any particular ideas and information you hold might be valid.  

Let's be totally clear.  This has NOTHING to do with LSU.  This is about the way you've behaved since you've been here. And again, yes, it's personal.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 18:13
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David Skolnik, the way that I express myself is not a strategy, nor is it anything that you will ever change or influence. Get over it. Your statements were completely wrong, so I stated that fact. If that upsets you, learn to get over it. It is nothing personal, no matter how much you continue to make it that way. The information you presented was completely wrong, and thus it was stated.

That happens when one summarises others in an attempt to establish a consensus without any first-hand experience. Before you can accept anything that is written [by me, or anyone else], you need to have proven it to yourself. Otherwise, you have nothing directly to add to a discussion other than to [mis]state what others may have experienced. 

David Skolnik: We can't be talking about anything too subtle, can we?

Indeed, no, it is not subtle at all, which is why I wrote what I wrote, in exactly the way that I wrote it. I believe I can produce an example of a "dead" hammer that will musically outperform any tensioned based hammer.

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 17:39
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Mr Snook -

You're at it again, with the same ridiculous strategies.  I tried to convey (too indirectly, it seems) that you could have expressed your disagreement with me without indulging in such annihilative belligerence:    No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.  If that sounds neutral to you, you may not be the one to be discussing subtleties of tone.

And again, you moralize to me (and, by extension, others) about "steering the conversation":

You must learn to begin testing everything out for yourself, instead of relying on the words of others and trying to summari[z]e whatever you think is a consensus. You need your own experience in order to promote a deeper understand. When you don't have that, it is evident in your writings and how you attempt to steer the conversation.

No. It's you who are wrong.  You are the one who consistently insists on re-directing any conversation towards your own set of agendas.  As David Love wrote:  The discussion is mostly about the inner characteristics of the hammer, how the felt is responding.  It wasn't about whether all pianos have excessively heavy hammers.  I never made any claims.  You criticize me for attempting to clarify what is being said, or understand if there is, in fact, a discernible consensus about an issue, among collegues I respect, even if I don't always agree,(and even if such consensus proves, ultimately, flawed). Who are you to tell me I'm unworthy of seeking such clarity, until I've recreated every trial that anyone has ever done?  

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

David Skolnik, you are choosing to make things personal on a professional discussion group; that is your choice, for which you must live with. 

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 18:42
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

No Bradley S.  It is personal and I will not get over it.  It's time you got a bit over yourself, if you actually expect to be engaged with, at all.
the way that I express myself is not a strategy, nor is it anything that you will ever change or influence.

You had some time away to reflect.  You've had a chance to start anew, so to speak, from what was an inauspicious beginning, and yet you come right back in with the same distorted garbage.  You are continuing to challenge my right to discuss and pose questions without having passed your particular test of qualification. 

Before you can accept anything that is written [by me, or anyone else], you need to have proven it to yourself. Otherwise, you have nothing directly to add to a discussion other than to [mis]state what others may have experienced.

Snook, this is nothing short of crap.  That you not only think this way, but have committed to the immutability of your views, suggests that you remain unprepared to be treated with respect.  And that's totally apart from whether any particular ideas and information you hold might be valid.  

Let's be totally clear.  This has NOTHING to do with LSU.  This is about the way you've behaved since you've been here. And again, yes, it's personal.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 18:13
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David Skolnik, the way that I express myself is not a strategy, nor is it anything that you will ever change or influence. Get over it. Your statements were completely wrong, so I stated that fact. If that upsets you, learn to get over it. It is nothing personal, no matter how much you continue to make it that way. The information you presented was completely wrong, and thus it was stated.

That happens when one summarises others in an attempt to establish a consensus without any first-hand experience. Before you can accept anything that is written [by me, or anyone else], you need to have proven it to yourself. Otherwise, you have nothing directly to add to a discussion other than to [mis]state what others may have experienced. 

David Skolnik: We can't be talking about anything too subtle, can we?

Indeed, no, it is not subtle at all, which is why I wrote what I wrote, in exactly the way that I wrote it. I believe I can produce an example of a "dead" hammer that will musically outperform any tensioned based hammer.

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 17:39
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Mr Snook -

You're at it again, with the same ridiculous strategies.  I tried to convey (too indirectly, it seems) that you could have expressed your disagreement with me without indulging in such annihilative belligerence:    No, David Skolnik, your statements are completely wrong.  If that sounds neutral to you, you may not be the one to be discussing subtleties of tone.

And again, you moralize to me (and, by extension, others) about "steering the conversation":

You must learn to begin testing everything out for yourself, instead of relying on the words of others and trying to summari[z]e whatever you think is a consensus. You need your own experience in order to promote a deeper understand. When you don't have that, it is evident in your writings and how you attempt to steer the conversation.

No. It's you who are wrong.  You are the one who consistently insists on re-directing any conversation towards your own set of agendas.  As David Love wrote:  The discussion is mostly about the inner characteristics of the hammer, how the felt is responding.  It wasn't about whether all pianos have excessively heavy hammers.  I never made any claims.  You criticize me for attempting to clarify what is being said, or understand if there is, in fact, a discernible consensus about an issue, among collegues I respect, even if I don't always agree,(and even if such consensus proves, ultimately, flawed). Who are you to tell me I'm unworthy of seeking such clarity, until I've recreated every trial that anyone has ever done?  

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Yes, sweetheart... 'professional discussion' among real people.  Before its professionalism comes the expectation of some minimal degree of humanity, which, thus far, you seem to eschew.   You have chosen to act in a personally offensive manner.  I'm simply making sure you know it.  

You could have said:

"David Skolnik.  I think you're mistaken, on both points...here's why...", or some such variant.  Can you even begin to grasp how that would have changed the context?  Can you even imagine the incredible number of 'points' you could have accrued, had you, even subsequently, been able to say  something like "I see your point... " etc.  But you didn't, or couldn't, and, at this point, that's whom YOU have to live with.

At the moment, at least, I'm fine with me.

-----------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 19:37
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

David Skolnik, you are choosing to make things personal on a professional discussion group; that is your choice, for which you must live with. 

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------

There may be some valid points here, but, once again, hammer weight, geometry, and, to an extent, tone quality itself is beside the issue of the spring function of a piano hammer.   Keep in mind that

- not ALL hammers that we come across are over-weight

- it can't ALWAYS be about achieving maximum velocity, unless we're only concerned with playing loud 

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 12:36
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

A shorter hammer contact time with the string is primarily a function of the weight of the hammer assembly and the ability of the action geometry to accelerate it to maximum velocities. Attempting to control hammer contact time with hammer tension, and the resultant rebound "spring," is extremely limiting. Once the weight of the hammer assembly exceeds the action geometry's ability to accelerate the hammer to maximum velocity, the hammer contact time with the string begins to increase (i.e., the maximum overall hammer velocity becomes slower--which means the hammer will stay in contact with the string longer). Hammer weight, not hammer "spring," is the key to this tonal equation.

Modern science has investigated piano hammers and classically described the observations in terms of the hammers behaving like non-linear springs. Those are valid scientific observations, but the real-world tonal implications of those observations are limited to a non-linear spring's ability to absorb impact, not specifically in terms of a tension hammer's ability to store potential energy to push off of the string faster. Hammer tension, and the resultant felt spring, will never overcome the mass of an overweight hammer; a lighter hammer [performing within the design limitations of the modern action] will rebound faster from the strings at the loudest dynamics than if a tensioned overweight hammer is used. It is the faster traveling hammer speeds of the action geometry appropriate hammer weights that ensure a rebound time that is faster than the non-linear spring tension of the tension-felted hammers.

It is possible to make lighter tensioned hammers, which will also travel at maximum impact velocities, but the additional increase in rebound speed due to the "spring" is tonally most apparent in the ppp end of the spectrum [not the fff end]. An action geometry appropriate hammer weight produces a very clear ppp tone with tensioned hammers--the result is that there is much less colour contrast throughout the dynamic ladder. This can be great for a concerto setting, but is highly ineffective in a solo piano recital setting.

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------

Hammer mass is a factor in contact time.  I never said (addressing Mr Snook now) that tension can overcome the effects of mass.  But the discussion is mostly about the inner characteristics of the hammer, how the felt is responding.  

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Because the higher the rate of restitution, the shorter the contact time. Shorter contact time means less filtering of frequencies whose period is less than or equal to the contact time itself. More high partial development can be achieved with a hammer that might deflect more but has a higher restitution rate. In simpler terms brighter with less harshness at upper dynamic levels. The more flexible hammer with a high restitution rate "cushions" a hard blow more but gets off the string more quickly. In contrast, a less flexible hammer will produce high partial energy when it's hard, but when you soften it to reduce attack harshness at higher dynamic levels you lose more high partial energy from filtering because you can't introduce higher restitution rates in hammers that are compromised that way already.

The goals in voicing are largely to control the relationship between the attack and sustain phase of the tonal envelope *plus* insuring that each step in the dynamic ladder (ppp-fff) is accompanied by ever increasing high partial development (my underline).  Though I rarely, if ever, hear it stated that way. We certainly don't want ppp and bright, and fff and dark (which can be produced by drops of lacquer on the crown of the hammer only). The performance of the more flexible (and tensioned) hammer with a higher restitution rate will be different from a less tensioned hammer with less flexibility and a low restitution rate in this respect.  The former will give a better opportunity to achieve those stated goals. 

That's why. 

P.S. You wont find it stated that way in Russell's writings but several articles of his and others were very helpful in my being able to draw those conclusions and express it in that way.

The first question that must be answered is why do we voice. When you can answer that then other things start to fall into place. The answer to the question, btw, is not a physical one such as "to open up the hammer", it's a tonal one.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

This kind of intellectual modeling is compelling but dangerous - if we truly want to get at what actually happens on a physical plane and in the time scale that is appropriate.

It "makes sense" intuitively that a hammer that is "springier" will "rebound" from the string faster. But is this the case? Do we actually know it from experiment, or is it just something we surmise?

In fact, a hammer does not rebound from a string in a simple way. The interaction is far more complex. The string is also a spring (and a non-linear one). The first contact of hammer with string results in deformation of the string. The string does not remain stationary, but moves forward of the hammer. The deformation of the string propagates in both directions, and is reflected back from its "terminations" (in a manner that is also not simple). The hammer is not entirely stopped, but (depending on the length of string and mass of the hammer - but this is true of the middle of the range) continues moving forward slowly until the string deformation arrives at the hammer, slowing it more or perhaps stopping it. At least one if not two or more additional interactions take place.

The most important factor in how many interactions take place is not the springiness of the hammer felt, but its mass. It takes more time and energy to reverse the motion of a heavier hammer than a lighter one.

But we know that various things we do to hammers with needles and hardeners alters the tonal envelope. So what is the mechanism? Is it, in fact, less "dwell time" (seen as a complex interaction of hammer and string with multiple touches)? Is it the hardness profile of the interior of the hammer, and the effect that has on the shape of the initial deformation of the string? (We know that the density/hardness of the core of the hammer just under the crown is of vital importance to the type of tone produced).

I don't claim to have answers. I merely want to point out that nobody else does, either, for lack of actual experimental evidence. If it could be shown experimentally that a "springier" hammer did, in fact, rebound measurably faster than a harder, lacquer soaked one, or a softer pressed one, that would be evidence that we don't currently have. The best set of evidence I have seen is in Stephen Birkett's article "Experimental investigation of the piano hammer-string interaction" (Journal of the Acoustical Society of America 133 (4), April 2013). It has some tantalizing data, but not nearly enough to arrive at a reliable model. It only used one hammer, without alteration, but it gave a tantalizing look at the complexity of the interaction. 

If Birkett's experiments can be repeated with various alterations (mass, density of hammer material, etc), we would finally have something concrete to work with.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Fred< Stephen Birkett's article "Experimental investigation of the piano hammer-string interaction"

bummer one needs a subscription to read this...damn

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Fred< Stephen Birkett's article "Experimental investigation of the piano hammer-string interaction"

bummer one needs a subscription to read this...damn

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

The string is also a spring (and a non-linear one). 

Because the higher the rate of restitution, the shorter the contact time. Shorter contact time means less filtering of frequencies whose period is less than or equal to the contact time itself. More high partial development can be achieved with a hammer that might deflect more but has a higher restitution rate. In simpler terms brighter with less harshness at upper dynamic levels. The more flexible hammer with a high restitution rate "cushions" a hard blow more but gets off the string more quickly. In contrast, a less flexible hammer will produce high partial energy when it's hard, but when you soften it to reduce attack harshness at higher dynamic levels you lose more high partial energy from filtering because you can't introduce higher restitution rates in hammers that are compromised that way already.

The goals in voicing are largely to control the relationship between the attack and sustain phase of the tonal envelope *plus* insuring that each step in the dynamic ladder (ppp-fff) is accompanied by ever increasing high partial development (my underline).  Though I rarely, if ever, hear it stated that way. We certainly don't want ppp and bright, and fff and dark (which can be produced by drops of lacquer on the crown of the hammer only). The performance of the more flexible (and tensioned) hammer with a higher restitution rate will be different from a less tensioned hammer with less flexibility and a low restitution rate in this respect.  The former will give a better opportunity to achieve those stated goals. 

That's why. 

P.S. You wont find it stated that way in Russell's writings but several articles of his and others were very helpful in my being able to draw those conclusions and express it in that way.

The first question that must be answered is why do we voice. When you can answer that then other things start to fall into place. The answer to the question, btw, is not a physical one such as "to open up the hammer", it's a tonal one.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------
Fred, I don't understand how a piano string carrying transverse or longitudinal waves can ever be described as having non-linear behavior as regards the frequency domain.

Original Message:
Sent: 06-27-2015 14:43
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

The string is also a spring (and a non-linear one). 

Because the higher the rate of restitution, the shorter the contact time. Shorter contact time means less filtering of frequencies whose period is less than or equal to the contact time itself. More high partial development can be achieved with a hammer that might deflect more but has a higher restitution rate. In simpler terms brighter with less harshness at upper dynamic levels. The more flexible hammer with a high restitution rate "cushions" a hard blow more but gets off the string more quickly. In contrast, a less flexible hammer will produce high partial energy when it's hard, but when you soften it to reduce attack harshness at higher dynamic levels you lose more high partial energy from filtering because you can't introduce higher restitution rates in hammers that are compromised that way already.

The goals in voicing are largely to control the relationship between the attack and sustain phase of the tonal envelope *plus* insuring that each step in the dynamic ladder (ppp-fff) is accompanied by ever increasing high partial development (my underline).  Though I rarely, if ever, hear it stated that way. We certainly don't want ppp and bright, and fff and dark (which can be produced by drops of lacquer on the crown of the hammer only). The performance of the more flexible (and tensioned) hammer with a higher restitution rate will be different from a less tensioned hammer with less flexibility and a low restitution rate in this respect.  The former will give a better opportunity to achieve those stated goals. 

That's why. 

P.S. You wont find it stated that way in Russell's writings but several articles of his and others were very helpful in my being able to draw those conclusions and express it in that way.

The first question that must be answered is why do we voice. When you can answer that then other things start to fall into place. The answer to the question, btw, is not a physical one such as "to open up the hammer", it's a tonal one.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

David L<  Hammers are non linear springs 

I'm curious if there is documented evidence of this statement?  It seems to me the difference between linear and non-linear spring in a hammer would be right difficult to measure.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

??? I have no idea what you mean by your first sentence (my underline).  Hammers are non linear springs by the very nature of the material and how they are made.  The second part of the sentence makes no sense to me in the context of the discussion.

The voicing of hammers essentially addresses one of two things: it either alters the tension in the felt or it alters the density (or both).  Altering the tension can impact the density if, for instance, the tension around the outside of the hammer is responsible for maintaining the inner density of the felt.  In a hammer that has no tension or whose tension is bound by the infusion of plastic, then there is no way to alter the tension and voicing then becomes a matter of altering density only. 

A tensioned hammer reacts differently than one with no tension.  This is true in terms of how the hammer compresses and also how it rebounds.  Those differences effect the amount of force that is transferred to the string as well as the hammer string contact time which influences partial development.  Since tensioned hammers also have greater restorative properties, voicing stability in a tensioned hammer will be greater than one with no tension, or one whose voicing consists only of altering density.

Tension in a hammer is a limited resource.  You can destroy the tension in a hammer by excess voicing (or lacquering).  Once the tension is depleted then the voicing procedure switches to one of simply altering density and the character of the hammer changes.  Over time all hammers lose tension but hammer with higher quality felt (more interlocking and better fiber) will prove to be more durable in this respect. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-25-2015 16:24
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Piano hammer design was never originally intended to function as non-linear spring--tension only becomes an issue once hammer mass exceeds the design and functionality of the action geometry. Once the hammer mass exceeds the limits of functionality, hammer tension becomes a necessary crutch/bandaid for that specific situation (i.e., when using overweight hammers). When the system is setup within the limitations of the design, hammer tension becomes a non-issue (i.e., there is nothing that tension adds to the equation that cannot/shouldn't be accomplished without it). Tension can help, but it is not the secret to sound.

Ironically, I agree with everything that was written--except for tension being the fundamental way that it is accomplished (i.e, tension only plays a role when the hammers are overweight). When the hammers are within the design limitations of the system, the hammers easily voice out as described without any internal hammer tension.

The most beautiful singing, melodic tone comes [surprisingly] from a "dead" non-spriningy hammer. If anyone would like to compare samples/recordings, I am happy to make an example of a note that accomplishes/outperforms the tonal objectives described of the tension hammer (i.e., if someone else will produce a recording of a tension hammer example).

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------

Bradley,

If I remember correctly, you, at least sometimes, make your own hammers. If I have this correct, what qualities in a hammer are you looking for that you don't see in the commercial offerings.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Bradley <If I want lighter hammers to look more "normal" in size compared to modern hammers, then I need to start off working with felt that is much less dense.

Could you be specific? Less dense, meaning...something like...Bacon felt, with much more felt than normal being removed from the skived felt(if that's the right word) before the felt is wrapped around the core?

Ray Negron will do this on request, if this is what you are describing.

Also you mentioned in a different post re this thread: Hammer assembly weights that exceed c.4-5g greatly diminish the action's ability to accelerate the hammer to maximum velocities. 

What components do you refer to as "Hammer assembly"?  Strike weight...weight of the shaped and tailed hammer, before gluing to the shank...entire shaped and tailed hammer/shank/flange just placed, in its entirety, on the scale?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Specifically, the quality of the felt does not seem to matter much beyond aesthetics and how the hammers respond under the file. I try a different kind of felt every time. I have found that inexpensive, normal, non-hammer making felt works remarkably well for impregnated hammers. I am currently more interested in testing the boundaries of what is possible--in an effort to determine what  in the process really matters, and what does not. So far, not very much seems to matter, which is fascinating in its own right. The next felt that I will be working with is Eco-Felt, 1" Thick x 60" Wide. This is a cheap, easily accessible [to anyone] felt with no post-processing or dyes. The felt is very squishy and should produce very light normal sized hammers; shellac works extraordinarily well to stiffen the material in appropriate amounts. I find the concept of a cheap eco-friendly piano hammers that any technician can glue-on, harden, and shape intriguing.

The c.4-5g comment referred to strike weight (hammer+shank). It is an extraordinarily small number, but when it is exceeded the performance of the action drops off considerably.

------------------------------

Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 09:00
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Bradley <If I want lighter hammers to look more "normal" in size compared to modern hammers, then I need to start off working with felt that is much less dense.

Could you be specific? Less dense, meaning...something like...Bacon felt, with much more felt than normal being removed from the skived felt(if that's the right word) before the felt is wrapped around the core?

Ray Negron will do this on request, if this is what you are describing.

Also you mentioned in a different post re this thread: Hammer assembly weights that exceed c.4-5g greatly diminish the action's ability to accelerate the hammer to maximum velocities. 

What components do you refer to as "Hammer assembly"?  Strike weight...weight of the shaped and tailed hammer, before gluing to the shank...entire shaped and tailed hammer/shank/flange just placed, in its entirety, on the scale?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

For impregnated felt that is correct, it doesnt matter much. Non impregnated felt it matters, not only the felt but what the felt allows you to do in the hammer making process. Of course the process matters too.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Agreed, in the tension hammer making process, the quality/kind of felt matters a lot. You also need expensive equipment, which puts the hammer making process outside the reach of nearly ever piano technician/rebuilder. That has been a detrimental approach the in the field of piano technology, in terms of the advancement of basic knowledge of piano sound and how it works.

So, the question is: what benefit do we get from buying mass produced tension pressed hammers? The only thing I can ascertain is convenience and a lack of basic understand of the process [on a field-wide basis].

OK, but what about the sound? Surly, one can get a better sound from a tension hammer, right? <----BTW, this was something that I believed for a decade, as I cursed the concept of the impregnated hammer and its sound signature, specifically in the melodic section of the piano. No: I no longer believe that a superior sound comes from tension hammers; a superior sound and long-term functionality comes from impregnated hammers.

Tension hammers can tire-out easily in concert pianos after a few years. They either get replaced, or transition in to impregnated hammers until they are replaced. That has generally been my approach with concert instruments, especially in an institutional setting: no chemicals, tension-based techniques until the hammers tire-out, then a conversion to impregnated hammer techniques to extend the life of the hammers. The 2nd-life of the hammers, through impregnation, breaths new life into the instrument that didn't exist with the tension hammers from the beginning. Impregnation produces a better sound, there is more control, and more flexibility in terms of tonal objectives.

That is convenient, as it opens the door for technicians to refelt and make their own hammers, should they ever find the creative inspiration to do so--without the need for expensive equipment, tools, or supplies. 

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 11:25
From: David Love
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

For impregnated felt that is correct, it doesnt matter much. Non impregnated felt it matters, not only the felt but what the felt allows you to do in the hammer making process. Of course the process matters too.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

I don't buy mass produced hammers, I get them from Ronsen made to my specificiations. 

I detailed in a previous post exactly what you state, that tensioned hammers can eventually lose their tension.  However, it depends on how they are treated (needled) and how much needling they need.  Please revisit my previous detailed discussions in this thread.  Once that happens if they are too soft then you will have to impregnate them.  Interestingly Lloyd Meyer relayed to me stories about techs who were more comfortable needling the life out of various Renner hammers so that they could use lacquer on them.  They may as well have then started with a very soft Bacon felt type of hammer. 

Tensioned hammers won't tire out easily if they are made with quality felt and not abused.  However they can if the felt is of lesser quality and if they are over needled.   

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Agreed, in the tension hammer making process, the quality/kind of felt matters a lot. You also need expensive equipment, which puts the hammer making process outside the reach of nearly ever piano technician/rebuilder. That has been a detrimental approach the in the field of piano technology, in terms of the advancement of basic knowledge of piano sound and how it works.

So, the question is: what benefit do we get from buying mass produced tension pressed hammers? The only thing I can ascertain is convenience and a lack of basic understand of the process [on a field-wide basis].

OK, but what about the sound? Surly, one can get a better sound from a tension hammer, right? <----BTW, this was something that I believed for a decade, as I cursed the concept of the impregnated hammer and its sound signature, specifically in the melodic section of the piano. No: I no longer believe that a superior sound comes from tension hammers; a superior sound and long-term functionality comes from impregnated hammers.

Tension hammers can tire-out easily in concert pianos after a few years. They either get replaced, or transition in to impregnated hammers until they are replaced. That has generally been my approach with concert instruments, especially in an institutional setting: no chemicals, tension-based techniques until the hammers tire-out, then a conversion to impregnated hammer techniques to extend the life of the hammers. The 2nd-life of the hammers, through impregnation, breaths new life into the instrument that didn't exist with the tension hammers from the beginning. Impregnation produces a better sound, there is more control, and more flexibility in terms of tonal objectives.

That is convenient, as it opens the door for technicians to refelt and make their own hammers, should they ever find the creative inspiration to do so--without the need for expensive equipment, tools, or supplies. 

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 11:25
From: David Love
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

For impregnated felt that is correct, it doesnt matter much. Non impregnated felt it matters, not only the felt but what the felt allows you to do in the hammer making process. Of course the process matters too.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Interesting point of view. So if impregnation, in your model, is important, why is soft felt also important?
------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 12:10
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Agreed, in the tension hammer making process, the quality/kind of felt matters a lot. You also need expensive equipment, which puts the hammer making process outside the reach of nearly ever piano technician/rebuilder. That has been a detrimental approach the in the field of piano technology, in terms of the advancement of basic knowledge of piano sound and how it works.

So, the question is: what benefit do we get from buying mass produced tension pressed hammers? The only thing I can ascertain is convenience and a lack of basic understand of the process [on a field-wide basis].

OK, but what about the sound? Surly, one can get a better sound from a tension hammer, right? <----BTW, this was something that I believed for a decade, as I cursed the concept of the impregnated hammer and its sound signature, specifically in the melodic section of the piano. No: I no longer believe that a superior sound comes from tension hammers; a superior sound and long-term functionality comes from impregnated hammers.

Tension hammers can tire-out easily in concert pianos after a few years. They either get replaced, or transition in to impregnated hammers until they are replaced. That has generally been my approach with concert instruments, especially in an institutional setting: no chemicals, tension-based techniques until the hammers tire-out, then a conversion to impregnated hammer techniques to extend the life of the hammers. The 2nd-life of the hammers, through impregnation, breaths new life into the instrument that didn't exist with the tension hammers from the beginning. Impregnation produces a better sound, there is more control, and more flexibility in terms of tonal objectives.

That is convenient, as it opens the door for technicians to refelt and make their own hammers, should they ever find the creative inspiration to do so--without the need for expensive equipment, tools, or supplies. 

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 11:25
From: David Love
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

For impregnated felt that is correct, it doesnt matter much. Non impregnated felt it matters, not only the felt but what the felt allows you to do in the hammer making process. Of course the process matters too.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

finish my thought...So if impregnation, in your model, is important, why is soft felt also important? Why not start with hard felt?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Do you mean: starting with a densely compressed hard felt? Dense felt weighs more than a less-dense/soft structure stiffened by impregnation. A dense felt works fine too, but the overall shape/size of the hammer will be smaller, but that is more-or-less aesthetics and has nothing to do with sound. Basically, almost anything will work...

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 12:41
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

finish my thought...So if impregnation, in your model, is important, why is soft felt also important? Why not start with hard felt?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

oh...the weight side of the equation.

I must say, in my own work, I have taken Bradlley's ideas and am toying with them. I have not taken them as far as he has(yet). But in my experiments, and experience to this point, I find the tension model, yielding very subtle, unto disappointing tonal differences, while manipulating hammer shape and weight,  has yielded tonal improvements significant enough to have my full attention...particularly in the area of treble attack.   

To clarify, shape meaning strike point width appropriate as per the specific belly and its condition, and appropriate to various locations in the compass.

What's this got to do with the thread title?

Aside from David's straightforward demonstration, the assumption is that tension is desired unto necessary. It goes along with the caution of never breaking the tension layers when filing a hammer...a model that seems to make sense, but in my view, not the only way to successfully approach a hammer in the field.   

I just finished an experiment along these lines using the original hammers in a 5' Yamaha gp-1. The gp-1 is the bottom of yamaha's bottom of the line(now discontinued). I questioned whether I could get where I needed to go with the Yamaha hammers, and the entry level qualities of this instrument. However, I just ignored the hard as rock yamaha hammers, and concentrated on weight and strike point width..no needling at all in the treble. The results were far beyond what I thought could be achieved on this piano. And I don't just mean, the attack didn't hurt as much...I mean, the development of tone. To be specific, instantaneous appearance of pitch, without attack noise, and lovely fundamental sustain.

This piano was in a client's home, so I couldn't take the experiment as far as I would have in the shop. But the results with those rocks was pretty impressive...tension, notwithstanding.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 13:05
From: Bradley Snook
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

Do you mean: starting with a densely compressed hard felt? Dense felt weighs more than a less-dense/soft structure stiffened by impregnation. A dense felt works fine too, but the overall shape/size of the hammer will be smaller, but that is more-or-less aesthetics and has nothing to do with sound. Basically, almost anything will work...

------------------------------
Bradley Snook
Houston
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-28-2015 12:41
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Does lacquer destroy tension

finish my thought...So if impregnation, in your model, is important, why is soft felt also important? Why not start with hard felt?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

First can you clarify.  You wrote: "the assumption is that tension is desired unto necessary".  I assume "unto" is a typo.  What word did you mean?

Some interesting observations along these lines regarding tension and filing. 

In the process of developing the low profile specs with Ray Negron (Ronsen), we first made the hammer and then filed them to the appropriate profile.  Later I requested that the felt be skived to the appropriate thickness and then pressed so that minimal filing was necessary afterwards.  There were audible differences between those two treatments that I associate with a higher tensioned hammers (in the skived version).  So it isn't just cutting through the layers that matters.  Filing away the outer layers of felt seems to remove some of the tension stored in the hammer in that area.  Since the process of stretching during the pressing is important in maximizing tension and since thinner felt can be stretched more easily than thicker felt, reducing the sheet thickness to the final dimension first seems to produce a more tensioned hammer. The act of stretching the felt also produces a higher density over the crown of the hammer, something that is often otherwise achieved through pressing with heat.  The performance will be different.

Let me add that it is the stretching of the felt that is responsible for tension.  Poor quality felt, felt that is not interlocked and integrated with healthy fiber and a good blend of long and short fibers, cannot be stretched to the same degree that quality felt can.  It will tear.  That is one of the benefits of the Wurzen and Weickert products. They can withstand a lot of stretching without tearing and the felt will remain stable over a longer period of time, unless you destroy it be excess needling or other treatments.  Poor quality felt that cannot be stretched, or tensioned with density coming from the stretching process itself, must find another way. That will be either through impregnation (lacquer) or heat pressing which creates higher densities but further removes stored tension.  There's no question that these products will all have different dynamic qualities.  One may certainly argue preference. But I don't think you can argue that there are no differences.

Just as an aside, the destruction of tension in a hammer in manufacturing doesn't always come from the heat pressing of the outer cauls. Sometimes it is the heated inner caul that is responsible.

With respect to filing through layers of felt, it might be interesting to note that one way to remove tension from the outer layers and in the process reduce the density of the felt over the crown is to purposefully file through the layers.  For example, on a Renner Blue (a fairly rounded hammer that does have some stored tension) you can soften the attack by simply filing the rounded shape into a pointed one.  The process of cutting through the layers on the shoulder of the hammer relaxes the felt that is otherwise under tension over the crown.  In fact, it does more than relax it, it effectively removes tension from those crown layers of felt completely.  The fibers relax, become less dense, and the attack will become immediately softer.  I don't necessarily recommend this approach but it can be helpful when other options have been exhausted.  The same can be said of the Yamaha hammer.  Filing a more rounded hammer into a point will effectively deaden the crown layers of felt, create a bit more of a cushion, as it were.  That area, however, will be more subject to wear with use as the resilience of the felt, in so far as it comes from the connectedness in the layering, will be gone.

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David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
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Interesting discussion.

Bradley, does your max strike weight spec of 4-5g refer to the top treble or the overall compass? I know it's an aside to lacquered hammers, but I'm trying to follow ALL the points in this very intriguing and relevant thread.

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Jude Reveley, RPT
President
Absolute Piano Restoration, Inc.
Lowell, Massachusetts
978-323-4545
www.absolute-piano.com
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The c.4-5g comment referred to strike weight (hammer+shank). It is an extraordinarily small number, but when it is exceeded the performance of the action drops off considerably.

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Bradley Snook
Houston
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With respect, most of this thread has been an 'aside', of one sort or another.  As interesting as it all is, it would ultimately be disappointingif the original 
question, with regard to the effect of lacquer (or perhaps any of the various chemical treatments) on the tension dynamics, of tensioned hammers.  The most relevant tangent to this is the'spring' discussion.  The question, I think, is about what is physically taking place and its objective effect, tonally. Discussion of what is preferable, or 'more ideal' should come after.   The light hammer discussion started (for me) with Ed McMorrow, though I've no doubt that he would acknowledge other formative influences.  

In all the modeling of hammers that have been discussed, I'm assuming that there's some kind of restorative (spring) function, working with action of string. There's something to be gained by remaining focused on that, for a while longer.

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David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
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One of the problems with remaining narrowly focused on this particular subject heading is that, as Conklin points out, all of the features of the hammer are interdependent.  The behavior between hammer and string is really where the rubber meets the road (or the hammer meets the string).  It's inevitable that there will be some wandering to related subjects. Personally, I'm ok with that.  

The science of elastic collisions (which is what hammer/string interactions are) is complicated.  But even at its most basic level we can understand that in an elastic collision if we change the character of either of two objects involved, something will be different.  If we change the mass, tension or stiffness of the string we'll get a different output that we can identify in terms of amplitudes, wave forms and harmonic recipes.  Similarly if we change the static stiffness, the dynamic stiffness, the shape, mass, density, gradient, restitution coefficient, etc., of the hammer, we can also identify how those changes are manifested in the varying outputs of the string. In fact, we hear that on a daily basis when we stick a needle into a hammer or fill it with lacquer, file to a different shape, alter the strikeweights or even change the action ratio.  When we can identify the characteristics of string response and the tonal differences that we hear associated with those changes then we have something. That's my goal but it's driven by a desire to learn to do things with purpose and not just out of habit. I think there are some things that we can fairly easily identify and have. Other things may be more complicated and more subtle and there are undoubtedly interactions that muddy the waters as well.  But it's all part of the process of developing some greater understanding of what we do.  

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David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
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