Pianotech

Good day fellow tuners, I am a 22 year successful piano tuner with several respected customers including two musical theaters and a highly regarded drama department for which I tune 18 pianos, 6 times a year. I'm not a beginner is the point.

     I have a heck of a time trying to tune Steinway uprights, new or used and I'm now affiliated with a new Steinway dealer and I find I have similar trouble with the new Essex and Boston uprights. I have tuned by striking the keys with a good blow, a soft blow and pounding the heck out of the keys. I've tried setting the pin. I've tried coming down to note and raising up to the note. Inevitably, by the time I get to the next octave, the previous octave has slipped a cent or two. Sometimes I've had notes slip 5-10 cents. Sometimes when I think I've got it I give the note one last stiff blow and the strings can drop up to 15 cents.

     I'm a slow tuner and often take up to two hours to get a piano at it's best. Steinway products often put me over three. I'm looking for advice. The other day I tuned a Young Chang 52" upright that was about 10-12 cents flat. Within 1 our 45 mins., I had a beautiful stable tuning. I'm stumped. I spoke with the Steinway service department and they said, I quote, "Tuning a piano is very difficult." That's all they said. I would like to conquer this and I await your ideas.

Thank You

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291
------------------------------

The thing that works best for me is the same thing that works for me in
every piano. Tune in the attack, hitting the key repeatedly and quickly,
firmly but not pounding. You get instant and continual aural feedback on
what the string is doing and how it responds to pin movement. As you get
close to where you want it, the movements get smaller until you end with
the thing stable and where you intend to leave it. The string is settled
as you tune, so no test blow is required, but doing one won't move the
string. Techs that tune in the decay find it impossible to tune these
things, and take twice as long for a typical tuning as they should.
Tuning in the attack will speed your routine tuning up considerably too
as well as improving stability. Everything you need to hear happens in
the first half second of the attack, and you'll be hitting each string
probably 20 times or more as you tune. Tuning in the attack produces the
accuracy, while the continual hitting of the string produces stability.
A few brave souls on the list tried this and found that it works very
well. Try it.
Ron N


Original Message------

Good day fellow tuners, I am a 22 year successful piano tuner with several respected customers including two musical theaters and a highly regarded drama department for which I tune 18 pianos, 6 times a year. I'm not a beginner is the point.

     I have a heck of a time trying to tune Steinway uprights, new or used and I'm now affiliated with a new Steinway dealer and I find I have similar trouble with the new Essex and Boston uprights. I have tuned by striking the keys with a good blow, a soft blow and pounding the heck out of the keys. I've tried setting the pin. I've tried coming down to note and raising up to the note. Inevitably, by the time I get to the next octave, the previous octave has slipped a cent or two. Sometimes I've had notes slip 5-10 cents. Sometimes when I think I've got it I give the note one last stiff blow and the strings can drop up to 15 cents.

     I'm a slow tuner and often take up to two hours to get a piano at it's best. Steinway products often put me over three. I'm looking for advice. The other day I tuned a Young Chang 52" upright that was about 10-12 cents flat. Within 1 our 45 mins., I had a beautiful stable tuning. I'm stumped. I spoke with the Steinway service department and they said, I quote, "Tuning a piano is very difficult." That's all they said. I would like to conquer this and I await your ideas.

Thank You

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291
------------------------------

I intend to take Ron's advice and begin exploring the process of tuning on the attack.  I need the benefits he is describing.

That being said, I think the Levitan Professional (C type) tuning lever has been working to my advantage on these pianos.  The lack of tuning pin bushings on the Steinway uprights I have been tuning seems to make the linear springiness (does that make sense?) of the pin a factor in the problem.  With the Levitan lever, the application of torque is in the same plane as the part of the pin that is in the pinblock, and the incidental springing of the pin is minimized.  I understand that simply aligning a traditional lever with the string should give the same benefit, but nonetheless, tuning these has become less frustrating for me since using the Levitan lever.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-721-9699

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 12:54
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

The thing that works best for me is the same thing that works for me in
every piano. Tune in the attack, hitting the key repeatedly and quickly,
firmly but not pounding. You get instant and continual aural feedback on
what the string is doing and how it responds to pin movement. As you get
close to where you want it, the movements get smaller until you end with
the thing stable and where you intend to leave it. The string is settled
as you tune, so no test blow is required, but doing one won't move the
string. Techs that tune in the decay find it impossible to tune these
things, and take twice as long for a typical tuning as they should.
Tuning in the attack will speed your routine tuning up considerably too
as well as improving stability. Everything you need to hear happens in
the first half second of the attack, and you'll be hitting each string
probably 20 times or more as you tune. Tuning in the attack produces the
accuracy, while the continual hitting of the string produces stability.
A few brave souls on the list tried this and found that it works very
well. Try it.
Ron N

I maintain two Essex studio verticals, and recently began tuning them with the Levitan C lever.

My experience is like Floyd Gadd's on the Steinway vertical. The pins are tight, and with the C lever there is less overshoot, and I can usually center the pin with one "back" pull, and proceed to fine tuning.

I stand at either end of the piano, pushing the lever with a sort of lunge pose.

Dan has made a smaller version of the C lever fol verticals, and I hope Pianotek will produce it soon.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 13:13
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

I intend to take Ron's advice and begin exploring the process of tuning on the attack.  I need the benefits he is describing.

That being said, I think the Levitan Professional (C type) tuning lever has been working to my advantage on these pianos.  The lack of tuning pin bushings on the Steinway uprights I have been tuning seems to make the linear springiness (does that make sense?) of the pin a factor in the problem.  With the Levitan lever, the application of torque is in the same plane as the part of the pin that is in the pinblock, and the incidental springing of the pin is minimized.  I understand that simply aligning a traditional lever with the string should give the same benefit, but nonetheless, tuning these has become less frustrating for me since using the Levitan lever.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-721-9699

"Dan has made a smaller version of the C lever fol verticals, and I hope Pianotek will produce it soon."

I didn't know that. Sounds very interesting. I know it's possible to use the current one uprights but it requires standing up and I like to sit. But then again I guess I could use it on a spinet and sit down. Hmmm...

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 14:35
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

I maintain two Essex studio verticals, and recently began tuning them with the Levitan C lever.

My experience is like Floyd Gadd's on the Steinway vertical. The pins are tight, and with the C lever there is less overshoot, and I can usually center the pin with one "back" pull, and proceed to fine tuning.

I stand at either end of the piano, pushing the lever with a sort of lunge pose.

Dan has made a smaller version of the C lever fol verticals, and I hope Pianotek will produce it soon.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Indeed, take Ron's advice. What he didn't mention though was 'setting' the pin. That is, you tune to the # side of 'correct' and then tweak the string into tune by very slightly 'flag-poling' the pin. This works for me. 26 years at Glyndebourne Opera as Production Tuner.      Michael  UK

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 13:13
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

I intend to take Ron's advice and begin exploring the process of tuning on the attack.  I need the benefits he is describing.

That being said, I think the Levitan Professional (C type) tuning lever has been working to my advantage on these pianos.  The lack of tuning pin bushings on the Steinway uprights I have been tuning seems to make the linear springiness (does that make sense?) of the pin a factor in the problem.  With the Levitan lever, the application of torque is in the same plane as the part of the pin that is in the pinblock, and the incidental springing of the pin is minimized.  I understand that simply aligning a traditional lever with the string should give the same benefit, but nonetheless, tuning these has become less frustrating for me since using the Levitan lever.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-721-9699

No, I didn't mention it. I've gone over it before, and no matter how
huge a post is, there is something that didn't get mentioned, and
everything can't be mentioned in every single post.

I use the same process on every piano, grand or vertical. There is no
memorized choreography, but just a continual testing and feedback of
torquing and flexing against pitch changes to leave the pin and string
in it's naturally balanced state at the pitch I intend. Move, balance,
move, balance, etc, while striking it continually. It's very like you
just described, and it's quick and simple.
Ron N


Original Message------

Indeed, take Ron's advice. What he didn't mention though was 'setting' the pin. That is, you tune to the # side of 'correct' and then tweak the string into tune by very slightly 'flag-poling' the pin. This works for me. 26 years at Glyndebourne Opera as Production Tuner.      Michael  UK

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
------------------------------

Ron's advice is very good, and maybe the following will also be helpful.

On most uprights, including Steinways, I use the "karate chop" method. It's an impact lever effect without the impact lever. I wouldn't do this without a ball end lever, though, as it would probably be uncomfortable. Or you could use a Reyburn impact lever, which also does well. I prefer to tune with the Fujan lever because it is so much lighter. Less fatigue over a day's work. With most verticals, it's usually easier on my body to stand and tune...except for spinets.

With an impact method, I find Steinways are more easily tuned than with a smooth pull. However, with any piano, it's always knowing how much the pin moves in the block rather than how much the pitch changes from flagpoling.

------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
New Albany MS

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 12:54
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

The thing that works best for me is the same thing that works for me in
every piano. Tune in the attack, hitting the key repeatedly and quickly,
firmly but not pounding. You get instant and continual aural feedback on
what the string is doing and how it responds to pin movement. As you get
close to where you want it, the movements get smaller until you end with
the thing stable and where you intend to leave it. The string is settled
as you tune, so no test blow is required, but doing one won't move the
string. Techs that tune in the decay find it impossible to tune these
things, and take twice as long for a typical tuning as they should.
Tuning in the attack will speed your routine tuning up considerably too
as well as improving stability. Everything you need to hear happens in
the first half second of the attack, and you'll be hitting each string
probably 20 times or more as you tune. Tuning in the attack produces the
accuracy, while the continual hitting of the string produces stability.
A few brave souls on the list tried this and found that it works very
well. Try it.
Ron N

Original Message------

The thing that works best for me is the same thing that works for me in
every piano. Tune in the attack, hitting the key repeatedly and quickly,
firmly but not pounding. You get instant and continual aural feedback on
what the string is doing and how it responds to pin movement. As you get
close to where you want it, the movements get smaller until you end with
the thing stable and where you intend to leave it. The string is settled
as you tune, so no test blow is required, but doing one won't move the
string. Techs that tune in the decay find it impossible to tune these
things, and take twice as long for a typical tuning as they should.
Tuning in the attack will speed your routine tuning up considerably too
as well as improving stability. Everything you need to hear happens in
the first half second of the attack, and you'll be hitting each string
probably 20 times or more as you tune. Tuning in the attack produces the
accuracy, while the continual hitting of the string produces stability.
A few brave souls on the list tried this and found that it works very
well. Try it.
Ron N

It certainly does. Thanks Fred. Pass it on.
Ron N


Original Message------

I have been tuning in the attack as Ron describes for several years(thanks Ron) and it does speed up tuning and improves stability.

 

Fred Brown RPT

Registered Piano Technician

Cell: 904-687-8353

Fax: 888-0678-9818

Email: thepianoman3@gmail.com

 

Original Message------

Good day fellow tuners, I am a 22 year successful piano tuner with several respected customers including two musical theaters and a highly regarded drama department for which I tune 18 pianos, 6 times a year. I'm not a beginner is the point.

     I have a heck of a time trying to tune Steinway uprights, new or used and I'm now affiliated with a new Steinway dealer and I find I have similar trouble with the new Essex and Boston uprights. I have tuned by striking the keys with a good blow, a soft blow and pounding the heck out of the keys. I've tried setting the pin. I've tried coming down to note and raising up to the note. Inevitably, by the time I get to the next octave, the previous octave has slipped a cent or two. Sometimes I've had notes slip 5-10 cents. Sometimes when I think I've got it I give the note one last stiff blow and the strings can drop up to 15 cents.

     I'm a slow tuner and often take up to two hours to get a piano at it's best. Steinway products often put me over three. I'm looking for advice. The other day I tuned a Young Chang 52" upright that was about 10-12 cents flat. Within 1 our 45 mins., I had a beautiful stable tuning. I'm stumped. I spoke with the Steinway service department and they said, I quote, "Tuning a piano is very difficult." That's all they said. I would like to conquer this and I await your ideas.

Thank You

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291
------------------------------

Having worked for several Steinway dealers in my career and having been the dealer myself, I too had a tough time tuning Steinway uprights. An old mentor once told me that the best thing to do with them was to set a time limit and stop at that point because it wasn't going to get any better. I came to realize he was right. (Said only slightly tongue in cheek) The current Boston and Essex pianos give some people trouble largely because of very tight pins in some cases.

BTW, I believe that Essex pianos are currently made by Pearl River, not Young Chang. When the Essex line was first introduced, they were made by YC, but only for a short period of time. I will be curious to see if the acquisition of Schimmel by Pearl River changes anything. YC makes the Fridolin piano for Schimmel, so I can't imagine that will continue very much longer.

------------------------------
Charles Rempel
Sales & Marketing Director
Dampp-Chaser Corp.
HENDERSONVILLE NC
828-692-8271

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 13:15
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Edward

 

I'm 70 years old and have been tuning for almost 40 years. And guess what, I too have difficulties tuning Steinway uprights. I take an average of 45 minutes to tune a piano, but those Steinways take me twice as long. It just takes patience. Ron gave an two excellent suggestions:  Small movements and tune on the impact, hitting the key repeatedly.

 

As far as the Essex and Boston pianos, those should not be giving you problems. Essex are made by Young Chang and Boston by Kawai.

 

Wim

I'm glad I'm not the only one who struggles with the Steinway uprights. I groan (internally) whenever I walk into a customer's house and see one because I know it's going to take me about a half hour longer to tune than a regular piano. From what I can tell there seems to be a lot of friction over the bearing points and a lot of play in the tuning pins, both in the "turning" and in the "flagpoling" directions. I try to mitigate the latter problem by making sure to always keep the tuning lever parallel to the string. Even then it's hard to know if the string's tension is equalized across the bearings, and I guess that's where Ron's solution of rapid and moderately hard striking would come in, constantly sending shocks up the string to equalize the tension and give you faster feedback. I've been trying to become less of a "decay" tuner, but it takes focus, and when my mind wanders I slip back into old habits. 

I've not had problems with Boston or Essex pianos. Maybe in part because they have tuning pin bushings? 

------------------------------
Anthony Willey
Shoreline WA

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 13:51
From: Charles Rempel
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Having worked for several Steinway dealers in my career and having been the dealer myself, I too had a tough time tuning Steinway uprights. An old mentor once told me that the best thing to do with them was to set a time limit and stop at that point because it wasn't going to get any better. I came to realize he was right. (Said only slightly tongue in cheek) The current Boston and Essex pianos give some people trouble largely because of very tight pins in some cases.

BTW, I believe that Essex pianos are currently made by Pearl River, not Young Chang. When the Essex line was first introduced, they were made by YC, but only for a short period of time. I will be curious to see if the acquisition of Schimmel by Pearl River changes anything. YC makes the Fridolin piano for Schimmel, so I can't imagine that will continue very much longer.

------------------------------
Charles Rempel
Sales & Marketing Director
Dampp-Chaser Corp.
HENDERSONVILLE NC
828-692-8271

Hey, Willem - young man! You're at least a decade younger than me!  Ha-Ha!    Michael   UK

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 13:15
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Edward

 

I'm 70 years old and have been tuning for almost 40 years. And guess what, I too have difficulties tuning Steinway uprights. I take an average of 45 minutes to tune a piano, but those Steinways take me twice as long. It just takes patience. Ron gave an two excellent suggestions:  Small movements and tune on the impact, hitting the key repeatedly.

 

As far as the Essex and Boston pianos, those should not be giving you problems. Essex are made by Young Chang and Boston by Kawai.

 

Wim

I've found that at least knowing that Steinway uprights are difficult is half the battle. For me it's more of a mind game. I just can't get in a big hurry. Having a good tuning hammer is also helpful. I have a Fujan with a BKB tip and with an extension it's 17" long. Great leverage and control. I just got the Levitan C hammer too so maybe sometime I'll try that out on a Steinway upright. 

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 12:36
From: Edward Mastin
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Good day fellow tuners, I am a 22 year successful piano tuner with several respected customers including two musical theaters and a highly regarded drama department for which I tune 18 pianos, 6 times a year. I'm not a beginner is the point.

     I have a heck of a time trying to tune Steinway uprights, new or used and I'm now affiliated with a new Steinway dealer and I find I have similar trouble with the new Essex and Boston uprights. I have tuned by striking the keys with a good blow, a soft blow and pounding the heck out of the keys. I've tried setting the pin. I've tried coming down to note and raising up to the note. Inevitably, by the time I get to the next octave, the previous octave has slipped a cent or two. Sometimes I've had notes slip 5-10 cents. Sometimes when I think I've got it I give the note one last stiff blow and the strings can drop up to 15 cents.

     I'm a slow tuner and often take up to two hours to get a piano at it's best. Steinway products often put me over three. I'm looking for advice. The other day I tuned a Young Chang 52" upright that was about 10-12 cents flat. Within 1 our 45 mins., I had a beautiful stable tuning. I'm stumped. I spoke with the Steinway service department and they said, I quote, "Tuning a piano is very difficult." That's all they said. I would like to conquer this and I await your ideas.

Thank You

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291
------------------------------

Thank you all, who have responded thus far. I agree the problem with new Boston's and Essex' are the tight pins. When I finally get them tuned I find them to be very nice pianos indeed. I just wanted to get it out that I don't disparage the pianos themselves, just my own skills...

When Kent Webb from Steinway was at the store I do some work for, he tuned on the attack and it seemed to work. Its a style I shall try to adopt. I am for now, stuck with the rather basic tuning hammers I have now, but I will look into the Levitan C for future reference.

Thank you and I look forward to hearing more if anyone else has ideas.

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 12:36
From: Edward Mastin
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Good day fellow tuners, I am a 22 year successful piano tuner with several respected customers including two musical theaters and a highly regarded drama department for which I tune 18 pianos, 6 times a year. I'm not a beginner is the point.

     I have a heck of a time trying to tune Steinway uprights, new or used and I'm now affiliated with a new Steinway dealer and I find I have similar trouble with the new Essex and Boston uprights. I have tuned by striking the keys with a good blow, a soft blow and pounding the heck out of the keys. I've tried setting the pin. I've tried coming down to note and raising up to the note. Inevitably, by the time I get to the next octave, the previous octave has slipped a cent or two. Sometimes I've had notes slip 5-10 cents. Sometimes when I think I've got it I give the note one last stiff blow and the strings can drop up to 15 cents.

     I'm a slow tuner and often take up to two hours to get a piano at it's best. Steinway products often put me over three. I'm looking for advice. The other day I tuned a Young Chang 52" upright that was about 10-12 cents flat. Within 1 our 45 mins., I had a beautiful stable tuning. I'm stumped. I spoke with the Steinway service department and they said, I quote, "Tuning a piano is very difficult." That's all they said. I would like to conquer this and I await your ideas.

Thank You

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291
------------------------------

I use a very basic tuning hammer that I made myself, consisting of a
7/16" stainless rod and a 3" ball from a $0.50 garage sale track ball.
You don't need a supernatural hammer to do good tuning, and it's a very
bad idea to expect problems to go away with the purchase of a new and
expensive hammer. You need to learn to work the one you have first, and
upgrade if you find it necessary later. I never have found it necessary
once I built my last one, and went to my shop-made club from a really
nice old Hale extension lever I had used for many years before that. I
found my crude ball end hammer to be a substantial upgrade that better
suited my hand and style. If you can, borrow these high dollar hammers
from other techs (some have one or two of everything ever sold), and
test drive them for a couple of weeks against your expectations before
buying one. Otherwise, it's very easy to end up with a $1,500 tool
drawer that's mostly empty.
Ron N


Original Message------

Thank you all, who have responded thus far. I agree the problem with new Boston's and Essex' are the tight pins. When I finally get them tuned I find them to be very nice pianos indeed. I just wanted to get it out that I don't disparage the pianos themselves, just my own skills...

When Kent Webb from Steinway was at the store I do some work for, he tuned on the attack and it seemed to work. Its a style I shall try to adopt. I am for now, stuck with the rather basic tuning hammers I have now, but I will look into the Levitan C for future reference.

Thank you and I look forward to hearing more if anyone else has ideas.

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291
------------------------------

"You need to learn to work the one you have first, and upgrade if you find it necessary later."

That statement doesn't make sense to me. If you're able to tune adequately with the hammer you have, why would you even consider upgrading?  To me it seems you would want to upgrade because the hammer or your technique isn't working too well so you'd want to try something different if not better. Then, if the upgrade isn't improving your technique, you need to look at what you're doing and make changes. 

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 18:38
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

I use a very basic tuning hammer that I made myself, consisting of a
7/16" stainless rod and a 3" ball from a $0.50 garage sale track ball.
You don't need a supernatural hammer to do good tuning, and it's a very
bad idea to expect problems to go away with the purchase of a new and
expensive hammer. You need to learn to work the one you have first, and
upgrade if you find it necessary later. I never have found it necessary
once I built my last one, and went to my shop-made club from a really
nice old Hale extension lever I had used for many years before that. I
found my crude ball end hammer to be a substantial upgrade that better
suited my hand and style. If you can, borrow these high dollar hammers
from other techs (some have one or two of everything ever sold), and
test drive them for a couple of weeks against your expectations before
buying one. Otherwise, it's very easy to end up with a $1,500 tool
drawer that's mostly empty.
Ron N

The point is that it isn't the hammer, assuming it's a usable tool. It's
the tuner's approach. Upgrading is to be spoiled, and we're all willing
to be spoiled. But a new hammer won't cure a lack of understanding of
the mechanics of tuning any more than an ETD will make anyone a tuner.
Ron N


Original Message------

"You need to learn to work the one you have first, and upgrade if you find it necessary later."

That statement doesn't make sense to me. If you're able to tune adequately with the hammer you have, why would you even consider upgrading?  To me it seems you would want to upgrade because the hammer or your technique isn't working too well so you'd want to try something different if not better. Then, if the upgrade isn't improving your technique, you need to look at what you're doing and make changes. 

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
------------------------------

My point is this. Sometimes parents purchase a "usable" piano for the child to learn on and it can be frustrating for them. If they had a nice instrument to learn on it would be a much more pleasant and productive experience. Therefore, if you have a superior tuning hammer, at least you know that your tuning problems aren't due to using an inferior tool. You can then improve your technique to match the tool. My point is also this. This thread was started by someone who is an experienced piano tuner and is still having some trouble. Therefore it is logical that at least one option is for them to consider upgrading the hammer they use. 

This is what I'm hearing you say Ron: It is unproductive to purchase a superior tuning hammer. Do I have that correct? 

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 21:08
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

The point is that it isn't the hammer, assuming it's a usable tool. It's
the tuner's approach. Upgrading is to be spoiled, and we're all willing
to be spoiled. But a new hammer won't cure a lack of understanding of
the mechanics of tuning any more than an ETD will make anyone a tuner.
Ron N

Scott, I said what I meant and explained it.
Ron N


Original Message------

My point is this. Sometimes parents purchase a "usable" piano for the child to learn on and it can be frustrating for them. If they had a nice instrument to learn on it would be a much more pleasant and productive experience. Therefore, if you have a superior tuning hammer, at least you know that your tuning problems aren't due to using an inferior tool. You can then improve your technique to match the tool. My point is also this. This thread was started by someone who is an experienced piano tuner and is still having some trouble. Therefore it is logical that at least one option is for them to consider upgrading the hammer they use. 

This is what I'm hearing you say Ron: It is unproductive to purchase a superior tuning hammer. Do I have that correct? 

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
------------------------------

"Scott, I said what I meant and explained it.
Ron N"

Thank you.

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 22:04
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Scott, I said what I meant and explained it.
Ron N

"Upgrading is to be spoiled, and we're all willing to be spoiled."

That simply is not logical Ron. To do high quality work you need high quality equipment. The tuning hammer is the main tool we use for tuning. It's only logical that we use the highest quality possible. Why would you not? To work on good tuning technique with a tool that's only usable just doesn't make sense. There are many on this forum that use Fujan, Levitan, Reyburn and Faulk tuning hammers. What I hear you saying is that they are just a waste of money. Do I have that correct?

------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 21:08
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

The point is that it isn't the hammer, assuming it's a usable tool. It's
the tuner's approach. Upgrading is to be spoiled, and we're all willing
to be spoiled. But a new hammer won't cure a lack of understanding of
the mechanics of tuning any more than an ETD will make anyone a tuner.
Ron N

Mr. Mastin ,

I have been tuning as Mr Nossaman describes since the mid 1980's. I just never knew the technique had a name. He is right about it's efficacy. You need to recognize that the Steinway vertical requires a vastly different hammer technique than either the Boston or Essex. Or any other piano for that matter. For the Steinway you need to lose any fear you may have about flexing the pins during tuning.  Note that I said flexing not bending.  It helps to have a longish tuning lever.  For many years I used the APSCO lever that Schaff now sells as the Hale Professional lever ( # 6 on page 30 if you're following along in your hymnal).

  A good thing to try right at the start is to put your lever on a pin somewhere in the middle of the scale and insert a mute so that you have two strings of a unison to listen to for comparison. Then push the lever away from you and see how much you can change the pitch without turning the pin in the least. Then let go of the lever and see how close the string comes to returning to it's starting pitch without any manipulation on your part.  Next reach behind the lever and tap lightly with two fingers and see how you can return the string to it's original position with very little effort.  Don't knock the lever off of the pin or you'll be starting a case repair exercise right after the tuning exercise.  Repeat the process in reverse by pulling the lever toward you and returning the string to it's original position with light tapping as before.  Now you have some idea how much effect tuning pin flex is going to have on your actual tuning.  If you are remotely mechanically sensitive you will not have harmed the piano in any way.

Most tuners are taught to bring the string being tuned slightly above it's target pitch and to set the pin from above downward to final position. This works well on most pianos but on Steinway verticals tends to produce at best good unisons that go several cents sharp shortly after you leave the note and at worst wildly unstable unisons that go heaven only knows where shortly after you leave the note. The culprits in this problem are likely a long tuning pin ( 2 5/8" in older S & S verts though I think a couple of years ago they switched to 2 1/2" ) the lack of a pin bushing and a resilient pin block drilled for a tight fit. 

Typically when turning the pin a tuner will unintentionally  flex the pin downward and then turn the pin until the pitch goes over the target and then attempt to set the pin with the pin already under substantial downward flexion. The pin then returns to its unflexed shape while the tuner goes on about the process of flexing and turning many other pins. The pin being attached to a wire with 150lbs or so of tension takes a little while to relax. This leads to the tuner discovering the error about an octave later when a clean octave above the now relaxed note is revealed to be wildly sharp against the test intervals. If the tuner isn't using test checks along the way much unhappiness ensues at the 'end' of the tuning. Foul language and a second, third or even fourth pass follow.

  I had to find a solution to this problem early in my tenure at Steinway due to the C&A department's newly instituted policy of making the new guy tune all the uprights.  My solution as you have guessed by now is to use the pin flex to your advantage. You will intentionally flex the pin whenever you are turning it and, as best you can, unflex it while you are setting it.

In new Steinway verticals ( and many older ones as well ) there is a substantial difference in the static friction and the sliding friction of the tuning pin which results in the dreaded " pull,pull,pull, POP" phenomena.  I have found that one can almost completely avoid this problem if one flexes the pin prior to turning it. I have no idea why this is so. I only know that it works. Normally I will pull the lever toward me while turning the pin to the right. When I feel the pin move in the block I will push the lever away from myself and to the right and listen to whether the note is at,above or below pitch. Assuming it is above pitch I will push the lever away from myself and to the left trying not to turn the pin in the wood. I will then lightly tap fore and aft ( distally and proximally ) to set the pin. Normally when I need to turn the pin to the left I will do so while pushing the lever away from myself. I am using the qualifier 'normally'  because in the last year I have found some new 1098's which have needed the exact opposite technique (i.e. pushing while turning to the right and pulling while turning to the left).  With a little practice one gets pretty good at judging how much to turn the pin, how much to flex the pin and when the pin is relaxed enough to stay where one has left it. This entire process takes 10 - 15 seconds and I am striking the key repeatedly ( m.m. 130 -140 ) all the while. I can usually tune a 1098 that is 10-15 cents flat up to pitch and stable enough to leave in about an hour. It is physically taxing.

I realize that this approach is seriously heterodox when compared to virtually all tuning instruction of which I am aware but I have had 25 years of success using this method and believe that if you give it a good faith effort you can as well. Just keep in mind that when I say pushing or pulling you never want to exceed the elastic limit of the steel pin. If you do it will bend and the angels will weep.

As for the Bostons and Essexes , save up your pennies and buy a Reyburn impact hammer. 

Best of luck in this grand and upright profession of ours.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 18:38
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

I use a very basic tuning hammer that I made myself, consisting of a
7/16" stainless rod and a 3" ball from a $0.50 garage sale track ball.
You don't need a supernatural hammer to do good tuning, and it's a very
bad idea to expect problems to go away with the purchase of a new and
expensive hammer. You need to learn to work the one you have first, and
upgrade if you find it necessary later. I never have found it necessary
once I built my last one, and went to my shop-made club from a really
nice old Hale extension lever I had used for many years before that. I
found my crude ball end hammer to be a substantial upgrade that better
suited my hand and style. If you can, borrow these high dollar hammers
from other techs (some have one or two of everything ever sold), and
test drive them for a couple of weeks against your expectations before
buying one. Otherwise, it's very easy to end up with a $1,500 tool
drawer that's mostly empty.
Ron N

Edward - I only have ordinary standard levers, though one of them is extendible and uses separate screw-on heads. I have about six of those heads including a most useful 'thin-wall' head. My original lever (an R.REYNOLD) was given me by a retired tuner in 1964 - and I still use it out of preference. I use a 'T' hammer on Grands only, and the lever on Uprights. Though I did watch a blind tuner in Harrods Piano Dept. in Knightsbridge, London, tuning an upright with a 'T' hammer . . . . . !    

Wedges: I use Papps on Uprights and rubber with a wire handle on Grands. I tune Aurally. Takes about 50mins. - longer if a pitch-raise is needed.  Just persevere and continue to be be hyper-critical of your work.      Michael   UK

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2016 18:01
From: Edward Mastin
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Thank you all, who have responded thus far. I agree the problem with new Boston's and Essex' are the tight pins. When I finally get them tuned I find them to be very nice pianos indeed. I just wanted to get it out that I don't disparage the pianos themselves, just my own skills...

When Kent Webb from Steinway was at the store I do some work for, he tuned on the attack and it seemed to work. Its a style I shall try to adopt. I am for now, stuck with the rather basic tuning hammers I have now, but I will look into the Levitan C for future reference.

Thank you and I look forward to hearing more if anyone else has ideas.

------------------------------
Edward Mastin
Syracuse NY
315-422-1291

Edward - Good advice on pin setting above.  Taking 2-3 hours to tune a piano tells me your pin setting needs work,.  You will want to work on your speed so you can tune most pianos in an hour or less.  Some of the difficult pianos may take up to 90 minutes to properly set the tight pins, but that should be max.  Try focusing on one part of tuning every week - one week focus on temperament, the next week focus on octaves, the next focus on unisons, then focus on pin setting week four.  Your speed has to improve for you to make a decent living tuning.  Don't forget, if any part of the piano is more than 5 cents off pitch - you have to do something to compensate - either over pull or pitch raise.   New pianos are unstable, the pins are too tight, and some pins are too narrow and too flexible.  All of these make tuning some new pianos a pain.  After 6 or more tunings, these issues get better, and the pianos tune easier.   Sometimes I have to turn these stubborn pins back and forth 2-3 times before going for the set. Tiny diameter pins often flex 80 cents or more in a tight block. The feel of tuning pins got worse when makers went to China, and worse again when makers moved to Indonesia. 

------------------------------
Bob Maret, RPT


Original Message:
Sent: 02-09-2016 05:01
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Edward - I only have ordinary standard levers, though one of them is extendible and uses separate screw-on heads. I have about six of those heads including a most useful 'thin-wall' head. My original lever (an R.REYNOLD) was given me by a retired tuner in 1964 - and I still use it out of preference. I use a 'T' hammer on Grands only, and the lever on Uprights. Though I did watch a blind tuner in Harrods Piano Dept. in Knightsbridge, London, tuning an upright with a 'T' hammer . . . . . !    

Wedges: I use Papps on Uprights and rubber with a wire handle on Grands. I tune Aurally. Takes about 50mins. - longer if a pitch-raise is needed.  Just persevere and continue to be be hyper-critical of your work.      Michael   UK

------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612

I work contractually for an All Steinway University and each semester I get to tune about 35 1098's so I understand the difficulty in the learning curve.  Let me start with the fact that there was a redesign to the plate/tuning pin system around 2002 to 2003 which improved things greatly.  They removed a casting hump in the treble and high treble which was replaced with a thick felt strip.  The tuning pins in the tenor section were moved up just slightly so the tip can now go down fully on the pin and not hit the pressure bar on the lowest tuning pins.  If you encounter one of the early versions you will have those things to deal with.

A couple of basic rules to keep in mind have helped me keep my sanity and be able to tune as many as 6 a day just to get the work done in the short time window between semesters.  First and foremost the 1098 will never give as pure and clean a sound as other makes of pianos.  When compared say to a Yamaha U1 there is no comparison to the purity.  That being said the waves in the individual strings can and often do either cancel each other out or at least provide a "more colorful" tonal palette. 

We got most of the pianos new and there was the usual break in period that goes with any new piano.  I did encounter some that had not had the strings seated on the bridges and I took the time to seat them one time.  When you see the string actually move accompanied by the out of tune result you know it was needed.  Ironically this resulted in a wild string on the follow up tuning but after that it smoothed out.  Disturbing the status quo on a 1098 almost always has consequences.

Rule #2 the 1098 does not like to move down in pitch if the instrument is sharp.  It will creep back up in pitch.  This being the case the corollary to Rule #2 is float pitch if possible within reason of course.  My personal preference at that particular university is plus or minus 6 cents especially in voice studios and practice rooms. (flame suit on for protection at this point)

Rule #3  Don't expect the piano to settle down to being in tune after one tuning event.  Even the "old stock" we had at the university took some time for me and the piano to come to terms with one another.  At this point the pianos can sound very nice with a single pass in most instances but we had to learn to dance together to get to that point.

Rule #4 The use of an ETD is very helpful to keep track of shifting strings.  Whether you choose to record your best Aural effort and use it as the gospel tuning from that day forward or use one of the calculated tunings by the ETD manufacturer,  having the ETD to help you see when the entire unison is slipping into the abyss away from the octave is very helpful and saves a lot of time and headaches.

Many have described using the pin flex to your advantage.  You will have to learn that dance and how it responds but it can be done.  My usual time for a studio tuning on a 1098 is about one hour at this point but keep in mind I get a lot of practice.

------------------------------
Norman Cantrell
Piano Clinic
Lawton OK
580-355-5003

Original Message:
Sent: 02-09-2016 13:24
From: Robert Maret
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Edward - Good advice on pin setting above.  Taking 2-3 hours to tune a piano tells me your pin setting needs work,.  You will want to work on your speed so you can tune most pianos in an hour or less.  Some of the difficult pianos may take up to 90 minutes to properly set the tight pins, but that should be max.  Try focusing on one part of tuning every week - one week focus on temperament, the next week focus on octaves, the next focus on unisons, then focus on pin setting week four.  Your speed has to improve for you to make a decent living tuning.  Don't forget, if any part of the piano is more than 5 cents off pitch - you have to do something to compensate - either over pull or pitch raise.   New pianos are unstable, the pins are too tight, and some pins are too narrow and too flexible.  All of these make tuning some new pianos a pain.  After 6 or more tunings, these issues get better, and the pianos tune easier.   Sometimes I have to turn these stubborn pins back and forth 2-3 times before going for the set. Tiny diameter pins often flex 80 cents or more in a tight block. The feel of tuning pins got worse when makers went to China, and worse again when makers moved to Indonesia. 

------------------------------
Bob Maret, RPT

Years ago, when I was at the PianoDisc install seminar, a Tech who worked for Steinway was there.  I asked him about keeping a Steinway upright in tune and he replied to me that it was a lot like "stirring a cake".  I had no idea what that meant, but after seeing all the suggestions of flexing the pins to help settle them, I think I know what he was referring to.  I also work at a University that is an all Steinway school, but we only have one old 1098, the rest are Bostons.  We don't have the tight pin syndrome that has been mentioned, but they do go pretty horribly out of tune in between quarterly tunings (poor HVAC control is part of it, but I think they are just not real stable to begin with.  Just a thought).

------------------------------
Clark A. Sprague, RPT
Bowling Green, OH
www.clarkspianoservice.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-10-2016 08:14
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

I work contractually for an All Steinway University and each semester I get to tune about 35 1098's so I understand the difficulty in the learning curve.  Let me start with the fact that there was a redesign to the plate/tuning pin system around 2002 to 2003 which improved things greatly.  They removed a casting hump in the treble and high treble which was replaced with a thick felt strip.  The tuning pins in the tenor section were moved up just slightly so the tip can now go down fully on the pin and not hit the pressure bar on the lowest tuning pins.  If you encounter one of the early versions you will have those things to deal with.

A couple of basic rules to keep in mind have helped me keep my sanity and be able to tune as many as 6 a day just to get the work done in the short time window between semesters.  First and foremost the 1098 will never give as pure and clean a sound as other makes of pianos.  When compared say to a Yamaha U1 there is no comparison to the purity.  That being said the waves in the individual strings can and often do either cancel each other out or at least provide a "more colorful" tonal palette. 

We got most of the pianos new and there was the usual break in period that goes with any new piano.  I did encounter some that had not had the strings seated on the bridges and I took the time to seat them one time.  When you see the string actually move accompanied by the out of tune result you know it was needed.  Ironically this resulted in a wild string on the follow up tuning but after that it smoothed out.  Disturbing the status quo on a 1098 almost always has consequences.

Rule #2 the 1098 does not like to move down in pitch if the instrument is sharp.  It will creep back up in pitch.  This being the case the corollary to Rule #2 is float pitch if possible within reason of course.  My personal preference at that particular university is plus or minus 6 cents especially in voice studios and practice rooms. (flame suit on for protection at this point)

Rule #3  Don't expect the piano to settle down to being in tune after one tuning event.  Even the "old stock" we had at the university took some time for me and the piano to come to terms with one another.  At this point the pianos can sound very nice with a single pass in most instances but we had to learn to dance together to get to that point.

Rule #4 The use of an ETD is very helpful to keep track of shifting strings.  Whether you choose to record your best Aural effort and use it as the gospel tuning from that day forward or use one of the calculated tunings by the ETD manufacturer,  having the ETD to help you see when the entire unison is slipping into the abyss away from the octave is very helpful and saves a lot of time and headaches.

Many have described using the pin flex to your advantage.  You will have to learn that dance and how it responds but it can be done.  My usual time for a studio tuning on a 1098 is about one hour at this point but keep in mind I get a lot of practice.

------------------------------
Norman Cantrell
Piano Clinic
Lawton OK
580-355-5003

No, flexing pins isn't helping to settle them at all. It's about the
only way for the tuner to know where the equilibrium point IS. You're
not causing anything by flexing pins, you're reading what's there. It's
informational.
Ron N


Original Message------

Years ago, when I was at the PianoDisc install seminar, a Tech who worked for Steinway was there.  I asked him about keeping a Steinway upright in tune and he replied to me that it was a lot like "stirring a cake".  I had no idea what that meant, but after seeing all the suggestions of flexing the pins to help settle them, I think I know what he was referring to.  I also work at a University that is an all Steinway school, but we only have one old 1098, the rest are Bostons.  We don't have the tight pin syndrome that has been mentioned, but they do go pretty horribly out of tune in between quarterly tunings (poor HVAC control is part of it, but I think they are just not real stable to begin with.  Just a thought).

------------------------------
Clark A. Sprague, RPT
Bowling Green, OH
www.clarkspianoservice.com
------------------------------

sans micro tap

------------------------------
Paul Klaus

Original Message:
Sent: 02-10-2016 12:08
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

No, flexing pins isn't helping to settle them at all. It's about the only way for the tuner to know where the equilibrium point IS. You're not causing anything by flexing pins, you're reading what's there. It's informational. Ron N

I have 21 Boston 118 S  and they change 2 to 3 times as many cents in pitch as a Steinway Grand in the same room does.    When they do change, it's usually from C2 up to C4, so tuning them is often very quick. After 10 years in service, the voicing remains good, and hasn't climbed bright at all.  A couple had loose capstans, which responded to thin C/A to tighten them.  A couple had overly tight pins at first, but that has worked out.   The lonely Steinway 45 stays in tune like a rock - it's in a practice room and the students love to play it. Tuning difficulty on that is average as Steinway uprights go. 

------------------------------
Bob Maret, RPT


Original Message:
Sent: 02-10-2016 09:56
From: Clark Sprague
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

Years ago, when I was at the PianoDisc install seminar, a Tech who worked for Steinway was there.  I asked him about keeping a Steinway upright in tune and he replied to me that it was a lot like "stirring a cake".  I had no idea what that meant, but after seeing all the suggestions of flexing the pins to help settle them, I think I know what he was referring to.  I also work at a University that is an all Steinway school, but we only have one old 1098, the rest are Bostons.  We don't have the tight pin syndrome that has been mentioned, but they do go pretty horribly out of tune in between quarterly tunings (poor HVAC control is part of it, but I think they are just not real stable to begin with.  Just a thought).

------------------------------
Clark A. Sprague, RPT
Bowling Green, OH
www.clarkspianoservice.com

I'm in complete agreement with the advise from mssrs. Roeder and Cantrell. I would add 2 hints that have helped me with these pianos. 1, position your tuning lever to the 12 o'clock position, or even earlier, like 10 or 11. Second,  don't use vigorous test blows.

------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY

Original Message:
Sent: 02-11-2016 09:13
From: Robert Maret
Subject: Tuning the Steinway upright

I have 21 Boston 118 S  and they change 2 to 3 times as many cents in pitch as a Steinway Grand in the same room does.    When they do change, it's usually from C2 up to C4, so tuning them is often very quick. After 10 years in service, the voicing remains good, and hasn't climbed bright at all.  A couple had loose capstans, which responded to thin C/A to tighten them.  A couple had overly tight pins at first, but that has worked out.   The lonely Steinway 45 stays in tune like a rock - it's in a practice room and the students love to play it. Tuning difficulty on that is average as Steinway uprights go. 

------------------------------
Bob Maret, RPT