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key lead expansion

  • 1.  key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 09:27
      |   view attached

    I'm looking for commiseration and advice.  I'd only encountered this problem once in my 25 years in NYC, and that was a piano that had just arrived by ship from South America.  When I recently ordered key weights from Steinway, I asked about the problem and Chad Frye (?) said he'd never heard of such a thing.  I've encountered it on Steinways, Yamahas, Knights and other brands. 

    The leads are corroding, turning into a whitish powder, and in the process expanding.  In the worst cases, they split the key.  Here in the Virgin Islands (land of salt air and high humidity) it seems to be a fairly common problem, leading to keys locking up as the lead weights begin to interfere with the adjacent keys.  I've tried various coatings in an effort to slow the progress of corrosion, but it seems as if, once begun, it's impossible to halt.  

    Questions:   Are the weights pure lead or some alloy?

                           What is the proper name of the powdery substance that results?

                            Is that substance more or less reactive/potentially harmful than the unscathed lead?

                             Is there a coating specifically intended for lead? (I've tried a "High Performance" acrylic                                            metal lacquer)

                              Does the corrosion creep from one lead to another, propagating across the keyboard?                                      (This is an important question bearing on how thoroughly one must clean the keys                                                  before installing new leads.)

    Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.  Any chemists out there?




  • 2.  RE: key lead expansion

    Member
    Posted 05-08-2018 09:49
    the best answers to your questions can be found by doing more research and looking at fact sheets from the EPA or state environmental agencies. lead is a heavy metal and it accumulates in the body . lead dust is problematic getting into the lungs and bloodstream . there are guidelines on its use handling and disposal. you may have read about lead paint exposure especially to young children or people sanding paint when doing older home renovation . there are coatings that can help encapsulate lead paint since removal often spreads it and it is extremely expensive. there are test swabs from 3m that you can use to detect lead paint but to get a thorough analysis of what is in the key would require a lab test by a certified lead testing lab. i would guess that it is pure lead without a mix but when things may have changed to something else would require indepth research . excess swelling of the key sticks and tight fitting of the lead in the mortise of the key    is the most likely cause. i saw this problem here in two older grands that had been in extremely high humidity i thing both were wurlitzers. 

    dont just throw the keys out contact a regulatory agency for advice on proper disposal. the last thing you want to do is sand, scrape clean this mess     i

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: key lead expansion

    Posted 05-09-2018 22:30
    The best solution is to replace all the lead with solid gold. Approximate same weight and will not tarnish ever.
    Could be pricey though.
    -chris





  • 4.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 10:13
    Hi Patrick,
    Here's an article that I believe appeared in the Journal on oxidation in lead ship models:


    Happy researching,
    Jon






  • 5.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 22:26
    Swollen keys are by no means a rare occurrence.  Exposure to moisture definitely is a factor, though age by itself is not.   I recently worked on a Chickering square grand from around 1850 that had immaculate key leads.   I've also seen them splitting the keys at thirty years of age.  This leads me to believe that there are additional elements that contribute to the condition.   I've been told that key leads were often manufactured from lead scrap derived from printing platens which had antimony added to increase the hardness of the lead.   Trace amounts of metal can have a dramatic effect on the behavior of alloys--think of all the permutations of brass/bronze.

    The white powder is lead carbonate, which itself is toxic. There are many forms of lead oxide.  This is one of the most common.  The Elizabethans knew it as "white lead."  It was prepared by suspending lead over vinegar and scraping off the resulting excrescence, repeatedly.  That was then combined with oil and sold as a cosmetic.  

    I treat this problem by using a forstner bit a bit wider than the lead itself to drill down to the shiny metal.   This is messy enough, but produces less dust than sanding would.  I then coat the keyleads by laying out the keys on their sides and filling the depression with an eyedropper,  repeating as it soaks in.  If you use lacquer or shellac, it will penetrate better and seal around the lead in the interior of the keystick, however the coverage isn't thick enough to seal out the air and water vapor  entirely.   If you use a latex paint it seals better, but doesn't penetrate very well.

     Take the appropriate precautions.  I have a dedicated vacuum mounted by the drill bit, wear a respirator and clean up carefully afterwards.

    In any case, the best solution would be to punch out the old leads entirely, repair the cracks and relead.   This is also the most expensive alternative.  The value of the instrument will usually decide which option is appropriate. This stuff doesn't spread like a fungus, so this would start you off on a new footing.   The excise and treat option is probably good for twenty or thirty years, however.  The value lf the instrument will usually dictate which option is appropriate.











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    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
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  • 6.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 02:30
    This is a common problem with the brands mentioned in the tropics. It is called lead bloom. The article Jonathan referenced is fairly exhaustive but not conclusive. They do say it seems to be a reaction with acid in the environment, perhaps tannin in the wood, the finish, the air. At any rate it's a good read and they put a lot of time and effort into it.
    The article claims that impurities in the lead are not the problem, however, it is not uncommon at all to find pianos in which one size of lead has the problem and different sizes right next to them do not, so...
    Trimming the lead in place with a hacksaw blade is a temporary solution. Many people advocate using some type of sealant as mentioned above, it is logical. However I have encountered many leads that are "blooming" from the inside out, if this is a chemical reaction as opposed to some sort of oxidation then sealing isn't going to help. So I don't advocate it. Perhaps in places where the effect isn't too aggressive, perhaps sealing will slow it down, I don't know. But here in Hawai'i it can be really aggressive and I honestly don't think it helps. Here are some pictures I posted last year of a worst case scenario: http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MessageKey=3daa5cea-f4b7-4d09-b8b9-f8ba5e9e9899&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer
    You can see in last image there that the contamination is through and through. I've also run into a Knight vertical in which almost all the keys were shattered to the point the keys were broken in two. Of course this can happen to the leads in the damper back-action too and they are much more fragile than key sticks. 
    As you can see, I know much more about this than I'd like to.
    The white powder if really fine, finer than chalk dust so there's bound to be some floating around in the shop if you have to deal with a whole set of keys with as many as, what, 2-300 leads on a grand? I use a rod in my drill press to push them out for replacement, or a forstner bit to trim them as mentioned. The holes on Sohmer verticals, which seem to have this problem universally on their later models, do not go all the way through the key so they a) can push a big chip into the neighboring key and b) can't be simply pressed out.
    I have been concerned about dust that I have surely inhaled to the point of getting a blood test last year. It came out negative but to tell you the truth, that only made me suspicious of the test. At least it's not in my blood I guess.
    One last thing in a long post. I have run into some new Asian pianos, Young Chang I think, in which the key weights didn't look like lead. I've also heard from a someone in tech services at Yamaha that they "think" Yamaha is using something else in the their hybrid grands but not yet in the acoustic pianos. I don't believe that Steinway doesn't know about this, it's extremely common in their pianos in the tropics, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to address a lead problem in this day and age. Perhaps some manufacturers are working to get ahead of the problem at least in the future.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI

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  • 7.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 03:31
    I agree with everything Steve said about lead expansion. I should note that in the 25 years I lived in St. Louis, I encountered expanded leads just once, and I never had a case of them when I was in Alabama for 6 years. But since moving to Hawaii almost 11 years ago, I've probably encountered a dozen or more cases every year.  

    There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason the lead expands. I've seen some leads expand on some keys on a piano, and not on the key next to it. Of all the brands, a few are notorious, like American makers like Sohmer, Kimball and even Steinway, and some Asian products, especially Young Chang and Yamaha.  And I just recently removed leads from a 100 year old Bluthner. 

    One note of interest. I service a Walter console that had lead expansion. Since this piano was only 25 years old, and considering Walter is such a small company, I called them to ask if I could buy a new set of keys for the model I had. Unfortunately, they didn't have a set, but what was so interesting is that the person I talked with had never heard of expanding key leads in any of their products. 

    Steve mentions several reason for lead to expand. Considering that I had never encountered this until I moved to Hawaii, and it's so prevalent here, I am convinced the salt air is a major contributor to the problem. I might be wrong, but all I can tell you, trimming and/or replacing keys leads sure keeps me busy

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 8.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 03:52
    Wim, could be the salt air but there's salty air in plenty of places where it doesn't seem to show up. I thought maybe the sulfur dioxide and other gasses spewed by our volcano to the south might contribute. But I don't know that there's any volcanos near Florida where I hear it's common as well.
    As you mention, one key can have it and the key right next to it does not. That well researched article aside, I have to wonder if it is impurities in the lead and the reason for the disparity is that the leads were from different batches.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI

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  • 9.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 21:57
    Steve

    Just thinking out loud, yes, we have volcanos, which other low laying areas near oceans don't have, but very seldom does the air from the volcanos, which we refer to as VOG, blow over this way. But what we do have here is the red dust from the volcanos laid down thousands of years ago. Every time the wind blows, which is pretty well every day, to some degree, that red dust settles on all of our furniture, and gets into every nook and cranny in our homes. But because it doesn't get into every place on a piano, perhaps that's why it effects some of the leads, and not others, even on the same key.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 10.  RE: key lead expansion

    Posted 05-11-2018 08:58
    A few weeks ago I had this problem on an old Bechstein grand. It had been rewhatevered with new s/f/h. The tails were not squared to the shank with no tapering and slight arc. After correcting that, the keys were as you described with larger leads added at the time of the heavy hammer replacement. The OEM leads were swollen on both sides, rubbing against adjacent keys. Punching them out would be a problem just as trimming them would be.

    I used my DeadLeaders as a piston and pressed the lead out with a bench vise. Worked like a charm. I then plugged the holes and releaded for the new Strike Weight. Only four keys needed to be glued at the split from the swelling lead across the holes (prior to plugging).

    I also scraped off the black spray paint on the sharps and buffed the ebony.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 11.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 22:48
    I am not a doctor, so I am not giving medical advice. Just what I have been told and personal experience.  Here goes:

    My understanding is that lead "poisoning" from handling or breathing dust is a far more important precaution needed for children vs adults. Children (esp very young) are far more sensitive (body size and brain development) to this than adults.

    This is not to say that we should take no precautions, however relatively speaking, it is probably not that much of an issue for us.

    I COULD BE WRONG! so do your own research.  Of course don't eat the stuff or use your lead covered hands to take a coffee break...but probably not a need to get terribly concerned about.

    What a bummer job though. Not my idea of interesting work.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 12.  RE: key lead expansion

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-12-2018 00:07
    For what it's worth, since I do so much lead work here in Hawaii, Here is my routine. 

    I use a Forstner bit to drill each lead down about 1/16" below the surface of the key, both sides. Then I lay the keys on the table and dab a liberal amount of shellac in the dimple. After an about an hour, I turn the keys over and repeat.

    (I used to use spray shellac, but I had to put down newspapers with tape before I could do that. And that, when the wind is blowing, was quite a hassle. So now I buy a quart can of shellac, and just dab the shellac on the keys. Much easier). 

    When I get done with the drilling, I thoroughly clean all the surfaces and the floor, throwing dust and shards of lead in the dumpster. I then throw all my cloths in the laundry and take a shower, including washing my hair. I then run the wash.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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