Pianotech

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:



------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

Richard

I would suggest you tell your customer to contact the dealer and ask for a new piano. You can write up your report, documented with pictures. But this is not your fight. The customer needs to do the dirty work. The dealer might want to get another technician to do the repairs, but if it was me, I wouldn't get involved in that argument.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2018 19:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:

2.There are cracks in the keybed

Method 1: Clear the dust and dirt in the cracks, inject glue into the gap and filled by veneer, polish and paint it after glue dry completely;

Method 2: Use 2mm milling cutter to mill a 7mm depth regular groove tracking the cracks, inject glue into groove and then filled by spruce woods, pressurized dry, and polish and paint it after glue dry completely.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate.  It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed. This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

Have any of you encountered this problem?  Have you had any success in repairing it?  Have you lobbied for the piano to be replaced by the factory?  Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

Richard wrote: "There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom. One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.

What material is the keybed made of? How long are the cracks? Exactly where are they? A picture would be very helpful.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate. It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed.

It could be adequate if we knew more - like a picture!

This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

I don't understand this. The keybed (autocorrect = keyed) will always be susceptible to humidity changes - how would it not be? I thought most of these Asian pianos had plywood keybeds - difficult to imagine one cracking.

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

What is a capital?

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2018 19:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:

2.There are cracks in the keybed

Method 1: Clear the dust and dirt in the cracks, inject glue into the gap and filled by veneer, polish and paint it after glue dry completely;

Method 2: Use 2mm milling cutter to mill a 7mm depth regular groove tracking the cracks, inject glue into groove and then filled by spruce woods, pressurized dry, and polish and paint it after glue dry completely.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate.  It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed. This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

Have any of you encountered this problem?  Have you had any success in repairing it?  Have you lobbied for the piano to be replaced by the factory?  Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

What exactly is the problem?
Rattling, buzzing, keyframe can't be keybedded? Sap oozing out of the crack?
Why does anything need to be done?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2018 19:51
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:

2.There are cracks in the keybed

Method 1: Clear the dust and dirt in the cracks, inject glue into the gap and filled by veneer, polish and paint it after glue dry completely;

Method 2: Use 2mm milling cutter to mill a 7mm depth regular groove tracking the cracks, inject glue into groove and then filled by spruce woods, pressurized dry, and polish and paint it after glue dry completely.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate.  It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed. This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

Have any of you encountered this problem?  Have you had any success in repairing it?  Have you lobbied for the piano to be replaced by the factory?  Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

Original Message------

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:

2.There are cracks in the keybed

Method 1: Clear the dust and dirt in the cracks, inject glue into the gap and filled by veneer, polish and paint it after glue dry completely;

Method 2: Use 2mm milling cutter to mill a 7mm depth regular groove tracking the cracks, inject glue into groove and then filled by spruce woods, pressurized dry, and polish and paint it after glue dry completely.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate.  It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed. This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

Have any of you encountered this problem?  Have you had any success in repairing it?  Have you lobbied for the piano to be replaced by the factory?  Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

Original Message------

West system epoxy. Structural strength is 12,000 PSI and the compressive strength of steel

Use the filler to make some like peanut butter and fill the cracks from the bottom. Wipe clean. Let harden.

Make some regular and fill the crack from the top. It will wick in. 

Wipe the top down with some acetone on a paper towel to clean up.

It will never come apart but it may crack somewhere else.

The good thing about the two part epoxies is they never go bad unless contaminated.

Thanks for the replies.  Terry, I loved your photo message! I will try again to load some photos.  First attempt not successful.  The keybed is a "standard" c. 1.5" thick  bed plank of fir or beech...I am not certain of the material...but it is not plywood.  The capital is the top of the pedal lyre, the part that bolts or screws onto the bottom of the keybed.  Yes, wood is always changing with humidity, but it seems that cracks would allow more change.

Ed, I have not detected any noises or sap.  I am concerned about longevity and stability in the keybed so that action regulation can be done without fear it will change in six months.  The implication of your reply is that it may not be a problem worth worrying about.

I will be taking another look at the piano tomorrow and will look with new eyes in the light of your comments.

Richard

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2018 10:51
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

West system epoxy. Structural strength is 12,000 PSI and the compressive strength of steel

Use the filler to make some like peanut butter and fill the cracks from the bottom. Wipe clean. Let harden.

Make some regular and fill the crack from the top. It will wick in. 

Wipe the top down with some acetone on a paper towel to clean up.

It will never come apart but it may crack somewhere else.

The good thing about the two part epoxies is they never go bad unless contaminated.

Original Message------

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:

2.There are cracks in the keybed

Method 1: Clear the dust and dirt in the cracks, inject glue into the gap and filled by veneer, polish and paint it after glue dry completely;

Method 2: Use 2mm milling cutter to mill a 7mm depth regular groove tracking the cracks, inject glue into groove and then filled by spruce woods, pressurized dry, and polish and paint it after glue dry completely.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate.  It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed. This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

Have any of you encountered this problem?  Have you had any success in repairing it?  Have you lobbied for the piano to be replaced by the factory?  Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

If it is to be glued, it also needs to be clamped. This is a dealer issue and the piano should be shipped off to repair or have it replaced. If you do any repairs, you own it and warranty it from then on. Your best position is to advise the owner to contact the dealer for replacement.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2018 12:06
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

Thanks for the replies.  Terry, I loved your photo message! I will try again to load some photos.  First attempt not successful.  The keybed is a "standard" c. 1.5" thick  bed plank of fir or beech...I am not certain of the material...but it is not plywood.  The capital is the top of the pedal lyre, the part that bolts or screws onto the bottom of the keybed.  Yes, wood is always changing with humidity, but it seems that cracks would allow more change.

Ed, I have not detected any noises or sap.  I am concerned about longevity and stability in the keybed so that action regulation can be done without fear it will change in six months.  The implication of your reply is that it may not be a problem worth worrying about.

I will be taking another look at the piano tomorrow and will look with new eyes in the light of your comments.

Richard

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2018 10:51
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

West system epoxy. Structural strength is 12,000 PSI and the compressive strength of steel

Use the filler to make some like peanut butter and fill the cracks from the bottom. Wipe clean. Let harden.

Make some regular and fill the crack from the top. It will wick in. 

Wipe the top down with some acetone on a paper towel to clean up.

It will never come apart but it may crack somewhere else.

The good thing about the two part epoxies is they never go bad unless contaminated.

Original Message------

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:

2.There are cracks in the keybed

Method 1: Clear the dust and dirt in the cracks, inject glue into the gap and filled by veneer, polish and paint it after glue dry completely;

Method 2: Use 2mm milling cutter to mill a 7mm depth regular groove tracking the cracks, inject glue into groove and then filled by spruce woods, pressurized dry, and polish and paint it after glue dry completely.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate.  It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed. This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

Have any of you encountered this problem?  Have you had any success in repairing it?  Have you lobbied for the piano to be replaced by the factory?  Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------

My interpretation of "crack" is "expansion joint". To me, unless there is some demonstrable problem arising, at present I cannot see any reason To get alarmed about it. If an actual consequence occurs ...well that's a different story. 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2018 17:30
From: Jon Page
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

If it is to be glued, it also needs to be clamped. This is a dealer issue and the piano should be shipped off to repair or have it replaced. If you do any repairs, you own it and warranty it from then on. Your best position is to advise the owner to contact the dealer for replacement.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2018 12:06
From: Richard Capp
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

Thanks for the replies.  Terry, I loved your photo message! I will try again to load some photos.  First attempt not successful.  The keybed is a "standard" c. 1.5" thick  bed plank of fir or beech...I am not certain of the material...but it is not plywood.  The capital is the top of the pedal lyre, the part that bolts or screws onto the bottom of the keybed.  Yes, wood is always changing with humidity, but it seems that cracks would allow more change.

Ed, I have not detected any noises or sap.  I am concerned about longevity and stability in the keybed so that action regulation can be done without fear it will change in six months.  The implication of your reply is that it may not be a problem worth worrying about.

I will be taking another look at the piano tomorrow and will look with new eyes in the light of your comments.

Richard

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2018 10:51
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: Baldwin grand keybed cracks

West system epoxy. Structural strength is 12,000 PSI and the compressive strength of steel

Use the filler to make some like peanut butter and fill the cracks from the bottom. Wipe clean. Let harden.

Make some regular and fill the crack from the top. It will wick in. 

Wipe the top down with some acetone on a paper towel to clean up.

It will never come apart but it may crack somewhere else.

The good thing about the two part epoxies is they never go bad unless contaminated.

Original Message------

Hello,
A customer has a Baldwin BP190 grand (replaces the Model L, 6'3").  This is made in China...not sure which factory.  It is about 1/1/2 years old, purchased new from a local dealer.  There are 3 cracks in the keybed, two of which go through from the top (inside the action cavity) to the bottom.  One cannot see daylight through the cracks, nor put anything (e.g. knife blade, #12 piano wire) through the cracks, but the positioning of the the cracks inside the action cavity and on the bottom of the keybed certainly appear to align.  I contacted the ​dealer, who contacted Baldwin, and we received a reply from Henry Wang, International Sales and Business Development Division.  Mr . Wang says the factory suggests the following:

2.There are cracks in the keybed

Method 1: Clear the dust and dirt in the cracks, inject glue into the gap and filled by veneer, polish and paint it after glue dry completely;

Method 2: Use 2mm milling cutter to mill a 7mm depth regular groove tracking the cracks, inject glue into groove and then filled by spruce woods, pressurized dry, and polish and paint it after glue dry completely.

I am doubtful that injecting glue into the existing cracks, or milling a 7mm deep groove is adequate.  It seems to me that the glue, even a thin CA glue, would not completely penetrate the thickness of the keyed. This would leave the keyed susceptible to humidity changes with further cracking a distinct possibility.

Have any of you encountered this problem?  Have you had any success in repairing it?  Have you lobbied for the piano to be replaced by the factory?  Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. The lyre posts on this piano have also separated from the pedal box and from the capital, but I have fixed a lot of those on various Asian pianos.

------------------------------
Richard Capp
Boulder CO
303-499-5507
------------------------------