Discussion: View Thread

looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

  • 1.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-05-2013 16:02
      |   view attached
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Pianotech and CAUT .
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    I am an enclosing a photo of a string lifting tool that I'd like to get my hands on if anyone has seen them sold anywhere.

    Thanks!

    -------------------------------------------
    John Minor
    University of Illinois

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  • 2.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-05-2013 16:31
    Hey John,

    STRINGING HOOK

    For leveling strings after restringing.

    Features wooden

    handle for comfort and ease of

    use.

     #JSH-1 Stringing Hook

    Pianotek Supply

    DP

    -------------------------------------------
    Dale Probst
    Registered Piano Technician
    Wichita Falls TX
    dale@wardprobst.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 3.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-05-2013 22:43
    Dale,

    Yes, I own this one from Pianotek. The one in the photo has a much longer, thicker piece of steel below the handle. Looks like it might make for a bit more leverage and less bending. But maybe not....

    -------------------------------------------
    John Minor
    University of Illinois

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  • 4.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-05-2013 16:54

         good for poking your eye out when it slips off the string

    -------------------------------------------
    Mary Schwendeman
    Baltimore Md
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  • 5.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-05-2013 17:17
    What?

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 6.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-05-2013 23:48
      |   view attached
    John,

    I have a similar tool.  It was purchased from Renner.  The angle of the bends are a little shallower.  You could heat it and change the bend angles and the top and bottom.  Picture is attached.

    -------------------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    -----------------------------------------








  • 7.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-05-2013 23:51
    On 8/5/2013 9:42 PM, John Minor wrote: > > Yes, I own this one from Pianotek. The one in the photo has a much > longer, thicker piece of steel below the handle. Looks like it might > make for a bit more leverage and less bending. But maybe not.... John, I agree with the "put your eye out" assessment. I had one like that, but made one out of music wire and a dowel "T" handle, that is much more secure. The wire doesn't have to be all that stout, as the bend is tight, and you can get it between strings in a unison easily. Ron N


  • 8.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-06-2013 00:13
    I'll give a big ditto to Ron's dowel and music wire - though I made my current one (for string leveling etc) from a brass rod, and tapered it on one end and put a groove in it to be able to push on a wire. Also CAd a rubber knob on the other end to pad against my hand when pushing. A piece of music wire with a fine bend will get in anywhere, and won't slip off the wire. It catches and holds, unlike any other tool for the purpose I ever bought. I put up a photo here (it's the fourth photo you will see in the photo viewer, the #2 jpeg). I also have two or three with wooden dowels I use when stringing. I used #15 or so wire, and they have all lasted for years. Never broke one yet. The other ones kick around somewhere and never get used.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 07:04
    John, et. al.,

    If you'll forgive a tangential question:

    It seems to me that the best we can hope to achieve in the string leveling process, as with stabilizing a wire around all its bends, is to encourage the wire into its maximum bend around each bearing point by pulling (or pushing) the wire in the proper direction, yet not so far as to introduce an extra bend or kink into the wire.  This would seem especially important in the speaking length, where a kink would tend to cause some type of distortion in the vibration of the wire, perhaps resulting in an undesirable sound.  John, if I'm not mistaken, you say you're looking for a tool that is stiffer, with less flex and more leverage for pulling the wire.  Would that not increase the chances of putting an extra bend in the speaking length?  I saw a tool demonstrated at the convention last month that appeared to - by design - do exactly that, and it caused me to raise an eyebrow.  Is the trade-off between having the three strings of a unison in the same plane and having one or more of the wires kinked in this fashion a worthwhile one?

    Thanks in advance, folks!

    David

    -------------------------------------------
    David Dunn, RPT
    Piano Maintenance Technician and Coordinator
    UNI School of Music
    Cedar Falls, IA

    -------------------------------------------







  • 10.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-06-2013 14:41
    I watched a factory voicer at  Steinway in Hamburg when I was there last month for a new D selection use this tool to lift and "massage" the string for leveling. I've never seen this tool in any of the catalogues or at the conventions so thought I'd like to give it a try.

    I found it searching German piano tools last night at MEYNE  for about $13 plus shipping:

    http://shop.meyne.com/index.php?cl=details&anid=1430

    Thanks for the discussion. I have 2 eyes, so I'm willing to take my chances! : )

    John





  • 11.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 16:39
    John, all,

    I still don't get that "poke in the eye" comment, even much less you willingness to take a chance.

    This "poke in the eye" comment has even been supported by one individual has having some degree of reality without giving any supporting evidence, and by one who constantly claims that such a thing isn't valid, is just a belief, unless supporting evidence is offered for proof.

    What am I missing here folks, other than my original comment, "What?".

    If this is a real and justifiable issue, shouldn't someone come forth with evidence, like the actual loss of one's eye, actually having a near miss or having witnessed the loss one's eye or a near miss, or something, other than just saying so?

    Or is this just some kind of humor that escapes me? If so, Mea Culpa my ignorance to get it.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 12.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-06-2013 17:14
    Keith,

    Very good points indeed! My comment about my willingness to take a chance was meant to "poke fun" back at the "poke in the eye" comment. I don't take those types of comments seriously on this list.

    John Minor








  • 13.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-06-2013 17:25
    At WestPac 2012, the Fazioli tech told us that in the factory they level strings from below, before the dampers are installed, and that they give them minimal bend - I asked, and he said they do not start with a "positive bend," but simply level to where the strings are, where they happen to have settled after stringing and chipping. That is the first leveling, setting up the piano originally. Later, during voicing, they will check level, and will adjust as needed, with a very light massaging motion - and the original leveling was also done with a light massaging motion.

    The whole "massaging" thing works OK when the bend is minimal. As the bend becomes greater, you simply need to do more than massage to get any difference, because you need to move the string beyond the point where you want it to be (past the elastic limit). This is why I am against the use of the StrateMate and the like, because unless you have a very light touch, you will be making too much of a bend, and making it very difficult to get the strings into a good level later (the Strate Mate will not leave them level, as I can attest from more than one experience). 

    Bottom line, having good mating is more important than whether the strings were massaged or just pulled, and more important than whether there might be a bit of kinking, at least in my experience. And decent leveling is the most efficient path to good mating.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2013 15:35
    Since everyone is showing their favorite string leveling tools... I like Richard Davenport's Concert String Tool for bending strings around bridge pins and for mild lifting at agraffes and V bar. The tool is also great for pushing strings down. When more than very little lifting is needed, I use a hook tool. I massage the string, pulling it in an smooth arch away from the bearing. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    -------------------------------------------
















  • 15.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-06-2013 15:40
    David,
    I would quarrel with the notion that the bend at the termination should be "maximum." We want a bend that is "positive" as opposed to leaving the string to its own devices, in which case there will be little definition of the termination, either geometrically/visually in the string itself, or in the sound of the string. So, yes, we need to get in there and "make a bend." How much of a bend? I would argue that we should aim for somewhere between no bend at all and the maximum, and that in practice we should always avoid maximum, for the simple and practical reason that it is more efficient to do so. If we always leave a little "give" so that any string can be bent a bit more, we avoid that very common syndrome where one string is quite a bit higher than the rest, and we are struggling mightily to get the others to the same level, brutally pulling the string, making a kink if need be, sometimes breaking the string, and at any rate probably setting up a condition where the string is more likely to break.

    I agree with Ron N. that a kink is not a big deal. I have never heard a difference caused by a kink alone. It doesn't look nice and professional, but it's like a tuners knot within the speaking length: if you didn't know it was there, you wouldn't hear the difference. So if a kink is needed to get the strings level, put a kink there. Ditto with cases where agraffes are spaced too close together, so strings buzz against damper wires (strings of the unisons on both sides). You can swedge the damper wire, or you can bend the strings to the side. I've seen some pretty dramatic bends of that sort, and they did not make the string sound false.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 07:51
    On 8/5/2013 11:12 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > >I also have two or three with wooden dowels I use when > stringing. I used #15 or so wire, and they have all lasted for years. > Never broke one yet. The other ones kick around somewhere and never > get used. I have two in the stringing drawer, and one in my tool case. The #15 is about right. Never broke or straightened one, and you can easily put enough pressure on any string in the piano to kink and ruin it if you aren't paying attention, so it's adequately built. Ron N


  • 17.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 08:06
    On 8/6/2013 6:03 AM, David Dunn wrote: > >Is the trade-off between having the three strings of a > unison in the same plane and having one or more of the wires kinked > in this fashion a worthwhile one? This is one of the many things that is taken on faith, without question, by piano techs. I have, before tear down for rebuilding, induced kinks in wires all through pianos to see if it made the dreaded false beats or any other tonal difference appear. In my experience, there was no cause and effect relationship, nor have I seen it demonstrated by any of the many who issues dire warnings about kinks. I presume you're talking about Charles Faulk's string leveler, with which he has kinked many a string to lower it (that's the only way it's possible) in many classes with many techs listening and none noting the undesirable noises almost universally presumed to be introduced by a kink in the speaking length. As I've said many times, anything that dire and critical ought to be detectable after the fact, shouldn't it? Ron N


  • 18.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-06-2013 18:46
    ->> Or is this just some kind of humor that escapes me? If so, Mea Culpa my ignorance to get it. Yep, I think that is the gist of the thread. Regards, Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


  • 19.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 18:46
    On 8/6/2013 4:14 PM, John Minor wrote: > > Keith, > > Very good points indeed! My comment about my willingness to take a > chance was meant to "poke fun" back at the "poke in the eye" comment. > I don't take those types of comments seriously on this list. > > John Minor > > > > > >


  • 20.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 20:04
    Now this is where you have severely underestimated my personhood, Ron.

    A give away from who knows back when versus an actual purchase from the esteemed group at Pianotek Supply Company, or from
    http://shop.meyne.com/index.php?cl=details&anid=1430
    that John Minor posted.

    Give me a break. I am not that far south of where you reside to assume my lack of understanding of tool things.

    Please remember, I have the Hart String Leveling Tool
    http://my.ptg.org/Communities/Resources/ViewDocument/?DocumentKey=b3999808-81f3-4f33-8afd-a07e746a62d2
    that others seek, cannot fine, and have asked of me to let go of what it is I have.

    It is good to have you respond for once to me, however misplaced your perception of who I am is on this particular matter.

    To Kansas during a year of an incredible seminar, a definite snowstorm and my active involvement.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 21.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 23:16
    I am going to have to change my tune about "tool give aways".

    I have this most amazing repetition spring tool made by Kawai that Don Mannino handed out in one of his classes long ago. I have tried others, but this one remains first and foremost in adjusting those rep springs. It's the cat's meow, the dog's bark.

    Thank you, Don, and thank you, Kawai.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 22.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-07-2013 07:02
    My choice of the word 'maximum' was poor.  I was thinking of the process of stabilizing a new wire at that point and the 'extra' bend put in the wire around the various bearing points to help towards that end.  What you say about avoiding the maximum end of things as far as leveling goes makes perfect sense, Fred.  Thanks for that, and also to Ron for helping me overcome my fear of the kink, as it were...
    Cheers,
    David

    -------------------------------------------
    David Dunn, RPT
    Piano Maintenance Technician and Coordinator
    UNI School of Music
    Cedar Falls, IA

    -------------------------------------------



  • 23.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-06-2013 18:57
    On 8/6/2013 4:24 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > The whole "massaging" thing works OK when the bend is minimal. As the > bend becomes greater, you simply need to do more than massage to get > any difference, because you need to move the string beyond the point > where you want it to be (past the elastic limit). Any bend at all put into a string at a bearing point takes it past it's elastic limit. Put on a string, pull it to pitch, and immediately remove it. You'll find it permanently bent at the bridge pins, capo, and counter bearing. Other than that, I mostly agree at the capo, but I think the bends should be aggressive at the bridge pins. To my ear, the attack is cleaner. Ron N


  • 24.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-06-2013 22:53
    I agree about the bridge pin bend. About the capo, if you could be sure that something like maximum actually left the strings level, that would be fine, and maybe there would be some additional clarity, I am not really sure - but it is more important to have clean mating. I like what I call a positive bend, which is more than is there from the string being brought to pitch (and I agree that that bend was caused by exceeding the elastic limit), but staying below maximum for practical purposes.

    The massage thing - pretty mild stroking of the string as most people who teach it demonstrate - will produce only a small degree more bend than that initial bend caused by the wire being pulled to pitch. In practice, when you get very far past that, you need to exercise some force, and there's only so much force you can exert while drawing something along the string smoothly. With too much upward force, the friction against the string will keep the tool from sliding nicely along it. So I think you are best off not being overly fussy about "just massaging" unless you really keep the bend minimal - which means that probably you have to be the one who strung the piano. In the field, massage will work sometimes, but most of the time you need more pulling force than that, at least for many strings.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 25.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-07-2013 08:17
    On 8/7/2013 6:02 AM, David Dunn wrote: > > Thanks for that, and > also to Ron for helping me overcome my fear of the kink, as it > were... Now, that's not a blank check for arbitrarily kinking strings. it still looks sloppy where it's visible, and if it looks wrong, someone will hear very bad noises that wouldn't be there if they hadn't seen the kinks. Kinks, like so many of the things we are warned about, just doesn't typically produce the predicted horrible consequences in real life. As if this were real life...! Ron N


  • 26.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2013 03:03
    Folks,

        I'm with Mario on using Davenport's tools and techniques. Both the string tool and seating tool are nicely made.  On regularly maintained pianos, I will subsitute a gentle tap with a hammershank just before the bridgepin, and still occasionally here a little 'ping!' when a string sets down more firmly. Why? 

        One suggestion I heard made sense; the bridge will gently change with humidity/dryness cycles, and the string is pretty well locked by the angled bridgepins. The wire eventually will be suspended above the bridge, as the wood retreats as it dries.  So...every few seasons it seems reasonable to make sure that the strings are firmly in contact with the bridge. It does not take much...but every time I hear that little 'ping!', I know I've improved the seating, tuning stability, and TUNER satisfaction.

     Brassily,
    woodenly,
    I remain,
    a seating phoole,
    -------------------------------------------
    Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
    North Bend OR
    tunerjeff@aol.com
    Portland Chapter #972
    -------------------------------------------








  • 27.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2013 07:12
    On regularly maintained pianos, I will substitute a gentle tap with a hammershank just before the bridgepin, and still occasionally here a little 'ping!' when a string sets down more firmly. Why? 

    In the dynamics of string movement, the strings can, and do, walk up the bridge pins and away from complete contact with the notched edge of the bridge. If the bridge pins were perpendicular rather than angled the string, after a while, disengage with the bridge at the speaking side.
    Tapping the strings down ( and I need to emphasize VERY LIGHTLY tapped) provides total contact of the string to the bridge. The 'ping" is the string jumping down the pin. Often referred as seating to the bridge.
    Seating strings to the bridge is especially critical on new or newly-strung pianos and helps tremendously with stability of the tuning. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry
    Gerald P. Cousins, RPT ~ Director of Piano Service and Resources
    West Chester University of PA
    gcousins@wcupa.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 28.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 21:55
    Jeff,

    That ping that you are hearing is the sound made as the string leaves the small groove that the string has worn into the bridge pin.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 29.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-08-2013 11:26
    On 8/8/2013 2:02 AM, Jeffrey Hickey wrote: > > Folks, > > On regularly > maintained pianos, I will subsitute a gentle tap with a hammershank > just before the bridgepin, and still occasionally here a little > 'ping!' when a string sets down more firmly. Why? Because the notch edge is crushed by the cyclic expansion and contraction of the bridge cap against the frictional resistance of the string against the bridge pin. By seating it, you're just springing it down into the already crushed edge, from which it will later rise as the string seeks a straight line again so you can seat it yet again next time. > One suggestion I heard made sense; the bridge will gently change with > humidity/dryness cycles, and the string is pretty well locked by the > angled bridgepins. The wire eventually will be suspended above the > bridge, as the wood retreats as it dries. No. The string is still firmly on the bridge. The notch edge is crushed below the straight (horizontal) line the string takes between it's contact point on the bridge, and it's contact with the plate bearing surface. > So...every few seasons it > seems reasonable to make sure that the strings are firmly in contact > with the bridge. It makes no sense at all. Seating doesn't address the problem, just the immediate symptoms - temporarily. False beats and indistinct termination "cured" by seating are flagpoling bridge pins. Because the string isn't in contact with the bridge at the point it contacts the pin, a flagpoling pin presents a firm termination in the vertical excursion of the string, but a flexible one in the horizontal excursion. The flexible termination produces a lower frequency, and the difference between the horizontal and vertical frequencies produces the beat. That's why touching the side of the pin opposite the string as it's played kills the false beat. It stops flagpoling. Seating stops flagpoling, sometimes, as it jams the string into the cap and wedges the pin. It always comes back because the root cause wasn't addressed. Put enough CA in the cap at the pin entrance to stop the flagpoling and you stop the false beat. The string is still not contacting the notch edge, but it makes no noise because there is no flagpoling. Hint: the pin is the termination, not the notch. > It does not take much...but every time I hear that > little 'ping!', I know I've improved the seating, tuning stability, > and TUNER satisfaction. No, you've just perpetuated eternal misinformation, and quite likely added to the cumulative damage of the cap, as we were all taught to do. Ron N


  • 30.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2013 13:27
    Hi Ron,
    Yep, persistence might finally get the message across to enough people to make a difference. Maybe another 582 times saying the same thing ins slightly different ways will do it ;-)

    I think it is a good idea for anyone who does tapping or pushing of strings against bridges to do a sample test, to see just how little/much force it takes to crush the wood. Place a piece of music wire on top of the bridge somewhere where there is a clean surface, like above C8 on the treble bridge. Apply whatever tap or push you would normally use. Remove the wire and look at the wood. Can you see a mark? (Use your reading glasses, or, better, a loupe or magnifying glass, though often it is very obvious to the naked eye, even when it isn't particularly young). Now think of doing that every time you tune that piano, how it would add up.

    Thin CA at the base of each pin can really do wonders to clean up tone, when there are issues caused by loose bridge pins. It's fast, and pretty permanent - you won't have to redo what you did the next time you face the piano.Ten years later it will still sound cleaner.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 31.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-08-2013 17:55
    Neat sample test, Fred. Ought to awaken some if they actually take the time to perform it.

    One question: Would the size of the music wire make a difference for this sample test in your opinion? (Size 12 - 22)

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 32.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2013 18:21
    Well, Keith, I do have a hypothesis based on theory and observation, but I'd suggest you try it for yourself and find out. I'll mention that I first tried this about 10 years ago when somebody teaching a class said that a particular technique wouldn't cause any damage to the wood. I don't remember now what it was, but probably something like tapping a hammershank lightly with a tack hammer against the string. So I thought I'd see whether that claim was true. I found that if I tapped lightly enough not to make any mark at all, it wasn't enough to have an effect, or so it seemed to me. It's an easy test to do: if you are about to go through your standard string tapping procedure, and you can't come up with a piece of music wire, use something else, like a straightened paperclip. The point is to calibrate what you are doing, and to know what the results are, rather than to guess.

    I will also mention that if you tap in the speaking length, just in front of the bridge pin, you are pushing the string downwards right at the edge of its contact with the wood. What is going to happen? A lot of that force is going to be concentrated on the wood right at the edge of the notch, with a little less, progressively, as you move in toward the center of the bridge. So you will be creating a crushed groove with a curved, sloping profile, sloping down toward the notch's edge. I think a profile like that happens anyway with humidity swings, but I bet string tappers make it happen a good bit faster and make it more severe. I know that some pianos (same age and model) have far less bridge top crushing than others, when I pull strings off, but I can only speculate about the type of care they got, until one of these days I get to the point of restringing a piano I strung myself and was solely responsible for its care. Then I will have something really solid to form an opinion around. Until then, I am partly speculating based on limited experimentation.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 33.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-08-2013 19:29
    I find that very interesting, Fred, your hypothesis and your limited experimentation. Just not what I was interested in.

    I was interested in your actual experience based on your suggestion for others of us to try. I would have accepted your demonstration at face value should that have been the case.

    Of course, I know I can find out for myself, as anyone else can surmise for themselves, but why should I, or anyone else bother, had you had actually made the demonstration yourself and not kind of advocated its validity.

    For any sample test as you suggest, it just depends on how hard the tap, the size of the music wire used for the tap, and the type of tools used in making the tap.

    I get it. I may even try it, but I am not certain what purpose it would serve now for anyone but myself, should I feel the need to absolutely know.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 34.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2013 21:42
    That is precisely the point: unless you try it yourself, you will not know how hard a tap, etc. The only way to know for yourself is to try it yourself. I have given you all the information I am capable of giving you, because you can't get inside my head and access my own experiences. And it is in the tiny details that the "truth" lies in cases like this.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 35.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-08-2013 14:16
    On 8/8/2013 12:27 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > Hi Ron, Yep, persistence might finally get the message across to > enough people to make a difference. Maybe another 582 times saying > the same thing ins slightly different ways will do it ;-) I persist because it's right, and ignorance, in theory ought to be correctable to some degree. As to whether it actually is or not, if there were a way to frame the proposition and validate the results, I'd take your money on that bet the 583rd time I answered the question. Ron N


  • 36.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-08-2013 19:46
    On 8/8/2013 5:20 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > I'll mention > that I first tried this about 10 years ago when somebody teaching a > class said that a particular technique wouldn't cause any damage to > the wood. This misses the point entirely though. The point is that strings don't climb bridge pins and therefore don't ever need to be seated in field service, and that seating strings doesn't fix a thing even if it does seem to quiet noises temporarily. Damage from seating is secondary, as the humidity cycles do the damage that induces techs to start seating strings in the first place. The fundamental and universal mistake is in the presumption that seating is necessary and positive under any conditions. Phil Ford, a real actual diploma'd engineer, worked the math and came up with a figure of about 14lbs as the friction figure needing to be overcome by the expanding bridge cap to move the string up the bridge pin. That's not PSI, that's pounds on a footprint a couple of thousandths of an inch wide. This crushes maple without any help from techs with hammers and brass bars. It also levers the pins against the side of the hole and "bells" out the hole at the top, eventually letting the pin flagpole, attracting the attention of the tech with the hammer and brass bar who seats the string to kill the false beat the flagpoling pin produced, blissfully unaware of the process by which the beat developed or the damage already incurred in the cap before the seating, and similarly unconcerned about adding to the already considerable damage by his own actions in "fixing" the wrong thing. Trying to do minimal damage while "fixing" the wrong thing isn't the message. Understanding the problem and fixing the right thing is. THAT is the point. Ron N


  • 37.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2013 22:01
    Ron,
    I agree 100% with your logic. I am simply trying to take a different approach to getting through to people by saying that "Not only aren't you solving the problem, you are making matters worse." I think the reason this "method" persists is that "It works" at least temporarily. "Yep, the unisons cleaned right up, and I heard that little tic as the string dropped to the bridge, and even saw it move. It is obviously a great thing to do." (And then do again the next time - and who knows how long the "fix" lasted in the meantime). The first part of the Hippocratic Oath says "First, do no harm." So if you tell people that X procedure does harm, demonstrably, they are likely to avoid doing it. That's my theory, anyway. Maybe it helps the argument, or at least changes behavior, whether for the right reason or the wrong one.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 38.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2013 11:01
    All,

    A technique they use in Germany concerns this question; Why would the wire stay "up" on the bridge when there is downbearing and an angled pin? What is "catching" the pin above the wood? How can that be? What is this "tick" coming from? Ron, you're not "shouting down an empty hole" because I know many techs that have abandoned tapping primarily due to your lecturing against it. Tell me what you think of this:

    It is fairly standard procedure (according to two techs from there) to polish (read file) the pin at the contact point with a #1200 - 1500 grit crocus cloth or polishing cloth and make it slick so that it cannot hang up. I thought this was all voodoo until I tried it, and it seems to help. Even new pins benefit from it. The small cloth strips are twisted and used at each contact point. After doing this I have heard zero "ticks".

    Flame-suit on.

    Jim

    -------------------------------------------
    James Busby
    Mt Pleasant UT
    801-422-3400
    -------------------------------------------








  • 39.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2013 13:36
    Jim,
    What the sanding/filing may do is to remove the "divot" created on the bearing side of the bridge pin, due to the string being forced up the pin as the wood expands, and then following the wood down as it contracts, in repeated humidity cycles (which creates indentation in the wood at the same time). We all see those divots in older pins (at least we do if we pay attention): you can see them with the naked eye, especially because the copper plating will have worn through, and if you look at it with a loupe you can see that it is a significant divot/notch with sharp edges top and bottom. You can also feel that with your finger.

    So if you sand that surface, you will remove the sharp edges, which are kind of like the "wire edge" we put into cabinet scrapers, and, if you are a string tapper, you will find that there is less "ping" because the string isn't moving over the "wire edge" plus the slight change in angle when going from the indentation to the "un-divoted" surface of the pin - if you have a gap below the divot, which you will if you are a string tapper and have been merrily tapping away for years. And if you are not a string tapper, you might find the sound is cleaned up a bit because the string termination isn't zinging against that wire edge, similar to dressing a capo.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 40.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 14:10
    Fred,

    This one comment of yours:

    " ... if you look at it with a loupe you can see that it is a significant divot/notch with sharp edges top and bottom. You can also feel that with your finger. ..."

    immediately brought an image to mind, that of how nested balance rail key bushings look and can often prevent the key arms from returning to their home base.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 41.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2013 17:10
    That's exactly what I am saying. That roughness is what makes the "tick" when you tap the string down. I also think that if the string stays down at all (it usually comes back up) it's because of this small amount of friction. The whole thing makes people think they are really doing something good, but it is nothing permanent. Polishing this rough edge won't allow it to "tick" and won't give the false impression of doing something good.

    Jim

    -------------------------------------------
    James Busby
    Mt Pleasant UT
    801-422-3400
    -------------------------------------------








  • 42.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-08-2013 22:36
    On 8/8/2013 9:00 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > I > think the reason this "method" persists is that "It works" at least > temporarily. "Yep, the unisons cleaned right up, and I heard that > little tic as the string dropped to the bridge, and even saw it move. > It is obviously a great thing to do." (And then do again the next > time - and who knows how long the "fix" lasted in the meantime). Absolutely - all counts. > The > first part of the Hippocratic Oath says "First, do no harm." So if > you tell people that X procedure does harm, demonstrably, they are > likely to avoid doing it. That's my theory, anyway. Excellent theory, but in my experience they keep doing it with their own special technique that they imagine doesn't do any damage. I had a guy tell me once that he was very gentle, and only used a 2 lb hammer with his brass rod! The string was up the pin and needed seated, so he ever so gently seated it. So since the string moved and the noise stopped and he's not doing any damage with his special technique and little bitty two lb hammer, what's the problem? > Maybe it helps > the argument, or at least changes behavior, whether for the right > reason or the wrong one. I'd like to hope something eventually will help, but the damage thing certainly hasn't yet, unfortunately. Nor has any other logic or illustration. The string still moves, the tick still happens, proving the string was up the pin and needed seated. Some are capable of understanding the thing, but a whole lot just don't seem to be. Still, I consider it a worthy if maddening cause. Maybe some day someone with credibility, like that oft invoked "highly regarded tech" will eventually tell the story and everyone will automatically believe it all at once and knew it all along. Ron N


  • 43.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 08:41
    On 8/9/2013 6:11 AM, Gerald Cousins wrote: > > On regularly maintained pianos, I will substitute a gentle tap with a > hammershank just before the bridgepin, and still occasionally here a > little 'ping!' when a string sets down more firmly. Why? > > In the dynamics of string movement, the strings can, and do, walk up > the bridge pins and away from complete contact with the notched edge > of the bridge. If the bridge pins were perpendicular rather than > angled the string, after a while, disengage with the bridge at the > speaking side. Tapping the strings down ( and I need to emphasize > VERY LIGHTLY tapped) provides total contact of the string to the > bridge. The 'ping" is the string jumping down the pin. Often referred > as seating to the bridge. Seating strings to the bridge is especially > critical on new or newly-strung pianos and helps tremendously with > stability of the tuning. Figures. I'm just shouting down an empty hole. Ron N


  • 44.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 12:47
    On 8/9/2013 10:00 AM, James Busby wrote: > Ron, you're not "shouting down an empty > hole" because I know many techs that have abandoned tapping primarily > due to your lecturing against it. They are conspicuously absent from these discussions. Silent support? > Tell me what you think of this: > > It is fairly standard procedure (according to two techs from there) > to polish (read file) the pin at the contact point with a #1200 - > 1500 grit crocus cloth or polishing cloth and make it slick so that > it cannot hang up. I thought this was all voodoo until I tried it, > and it seems to help. Even new pins benefit from it. The small cloth > strips are twisted and used at each contact point. After doing this I > have heard zero "ticks". I think it's nonsense. Yet again (x1000), the string is NOT up the pin, but is resting quite firmly on the cap, and does NOT get hung up on the pins in the first place. If the string was up the pins, pushing on the string at the center of the bridge would produce the ping and movement. It DOESN'T, and never has. I've tried it, has anyone else? The notch edge is crushed by dimensional changes of the cap pushing on the string against friction on the pin, and is crushed below the natural line of the string. Seating temporarily springs the string down to the crushed notch. That's it, as I repeatedly say. That's all, and it doesn't change. Next time you, or anyone else who may accidentally be reading this has the strings off a bridge, lay a straightened piece of wire in a speaking length string groove, holding it in exactly at the notch edge, and note that it angles down well over 5° from the cap surface. That's the crush. I have some photos of this, but I don't care to jump through this broken software's hoops to try to post them, and seeing has never been believing in any case. Belief trumps all evidence to the contrary no matter what. It's easier to see first hand anyway on almost any old bridge as I described. As long as all inquiries into this thing start with the universal assumption that, against downbearing, pin slant and offset, and all known physics, strings climb up bridge pins and hang there, no one will ever learn a thing about this. I've described how bridges get to this state many times, have built models and taken measurements, and have produced a real world science based set of details covering the whole thing. As long as all the evidence and known science is disregarded in favor of the string up the pin fantasy, discussion on any level is a total waste of my time. And just how do those who have quit tapping strings based on my arguments reconcile my arguments and observations against the belief that strings climb pins? This makes absolutely no sense. Ron N


  • 45.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 13:21
    Ron,

    If you send those pics to me, I will post them for you.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 46.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2013 13:33


    -------------------------------------------
    James Busby
    Mt Pleasant UT
    801-422-3400
    -------------------------------------------

    Ron,

    As I stated in my post, I don't believe it can rise. (Downbearing and pin angle won't let it.) People who believe this even have a name for it; "Hydraulicking" (sp?). My point is that the string is "ticking" on something. Since the bridge pin is softer than the wire, and as you've proven with your X1000 posts, classes and 3x5 glossy's, etc. the wood can be crushed, and the bridge pin can also be worn. This wear, (pin) and the microscopic nature of it, in my opinion and from the German techs I sited, is the issue. The 1200 grit against the softer bridge pins removes the sharper edges of the wear in the pins and if it did push up (as it does not) or down, it is the same; the pin has nothing to hang on and will return to its resting place. The "tick" is the string coming out of this groove. Just as the pin cannot rise, it cannot stay down if the wire is resting on top of the bridge unless the wire is actually bent by the unfortunate "tapping" or if the pin has something that causes enough friction to keep it down until it can eventually come back up. Nonsense or not, the 30 minutes spent polishing these points seems to work. When I pull them and look at them through my 10x loop I see smooth surface vs. a moon landscape. Or, maybe it's just the way I hold my tongue when I do it.



    Jim




    <<<And just how do those who have quit tapping strings based on my
    arguments reconcile my arguments and observations against the belief
    that strings climb pins? This makes absolutely no sense.
    Ron N>>>






  • 47.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2013 13:21



  • 48.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 14:11
    On 8/9/2013 12:32 PM, James Busby wrote: > > > > ------------------------------------------- James Busby Mt Pleasant > UT 801-422-3400 ------------------------------------------- > > Ron, > > As I stated in my post, I don't believe it can rise. (Downbearing and > pin angle won't let it.) People who believe this even have a name for > it; "Hydraulicking" (sp?). My point is that the string is "ticking" > on something. The friction between the string and pin breaks loose, and as the string springs down to the crushed notch, it goes down slope on the slanted pin, and the stagger angle. Moving down both of these angles shortens the path of the string across the cap. The abrupt movement makes the tick, just as breaking friction on the capo can when tuning. What's the mystery? >Just as the pin wire? > cannot rise, it cannot stay down if the wire is resting on top of the > bridge unless the wire is actually bent by the unfortunate "tapping" > or if the pin has something that causes enough friction to keep it > down until it can eventually come back up. Correct. > Nonsense or not, the 30 > minutes spent polishing these points seems to work. When I pull them > and look at them through my 10x loop I see smooth surface vs. a moon > landscape. Or, maybe it's just the way I hold my tongue when I do > it. And the point is? Left alone, there is no tick either. The tick only happens when the string is seated. Since seating the string is pointless, why is it important or even useful to eliminate the tick when the string is seated? Ron N


  • 49.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 14:16
    On 8/9/2013 12:20 PM, Edward Foote wrote: > >


  • 50.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 18:46
    On 8/9/2013 4:09 PM, James Busby wrote: > > That's exactly what I am saying. That roughness is what makes the > "tick" when you tap the string down. I also think that if the string > stays down at all (it usually comes back up) it's because of this > small amount of friction. The whole thing makes people think they are > really doing something good, but it is nothing permanent. Polishing > this rough edge won't allow it to "tick" and won't give the false > impression of doing something good. I suppose that's why I didn't, and don't understand your point. It's always been my apparently mistaken impression based on the hundreds of times I've heard it said just that way, that strings are seated to fix false beats (first) and clarify tone (second). I never realized all these years that everyone lied and it was just to hear the tick. So if you eliminate the tick by polishing up the pin, techs will cease to hear and try to fix false beats by seating, right? I'd consider that to be a first order miracle for sure. So if they don't hear the false beats that will still be there because cleaning up the pin doesn't fix them, what would prompt them to seat the string without a reason and thus not hear the tick? Incidentally, many years ago, I tried turning pins in the bridge to present a fresh new undamaged pin surface to the strings, and it didn't cure false beats because it didn't address the cause. So someone would still seat the string, even if the ticks were killed. Ron N


  • 51.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-09-2013 22:17
    On 8/9/2013 8:54 PM, Alan McCoy wrote: > > Jeff, > > That ping that you are hearing is the sound made as the string leaves > the small groove that the string has worn into the bridge pin. Is it? Or is it just a simple breaking of friction? It sounds to me very like the ping I hear from a string rendering through the bridge on a big pitch raise, and that string isn't vertically jumping any grooves, yet it pings. Ron N


  • 52.  RE:looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-12-2013 00:17
    Ron,

    I suppose it could be from breaking of friction. It could be that we are referring to two different sources of "pings" as strings are seated. One created as the string breaks free of friction and one from the string pinging on the edge of the groove in the pin.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 53.  looking for tool source of string lifter on photo

    Posted 08-12-2013 00:46
    On 8/11/2013 11:17 PM, Alan McCoy wrote: > > Ron, > > I suppose it could be from breaking of friction. It could be that we > are referring to two different sources of "pings" as strings are > seated. One created as the string breaks free of friction and one > from the string pinging on the edge of the groove in the pin. It could be, if you must, as it could be entirely from friction but I really don't see that it's important except to avoid chasing a different flavor of phantom. When a piano is restrung, I think the bridge pins need changed at a minimum. I haven't strung without replacing pins for a very long time. Spending time polishing old pins gets you what? Diminishing the ping doesn't eliminate the reasons techs seat pins, does it? This whole thing truly doesn't make a bit of sense to me, and looks like an indefensible waste of time backed by inside out logic. Techs will still hear false beats if the pins weren't solidified against flagpoling with the stringing, and will still seat strings as usual whether there is a ping, tick, or what - which they won't ascertain until they HAVE seated the string. Ron N