Pianotech

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Since Ryan chose to link my name to his post, I want to clarify that I do not share his views. I believe it is high time that PTG looked seriously at its tuning test with a view to making it relevant to modern tuning practice, and I applaud the board for its courage in being willing to explore options for change. The devil is always in the details, but in any case I hardly think this is an "end of the world for aural tuning traditions." Nor do I think that the tuning test should be used as a political football. I think it should measure the ability of an examinee to tune a piano successfully, just as the technical test measures a level of abilities in repairs and regulation.

For the Pianotech forum I will leave it at that, and confine any further comment to PTG-L.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

This change is long overdue.
Speaking as an ex PTG member who passed everything but the aural portion of the exam.
I am referring to the later generation of ETD's.

-------------------------------------------
John M. Ross
Ross Piano Service
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@bellaliant.net
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 15:32
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Since Ryan chose to link my name to his post, I want to clarify that I do not share his views. I believe it is high time that PTG looked seriously at its tuning test with a view to making it relevant to modern tuning practice, and I applaud the board for its courage in being willing to explore options for change. The devil is always in the details, but in any case I hardly think this is an "end of the world for aural tuning traditions." Nor do I think that the tuning test should be used as a political football. I think it should measure the ability of an examinee to tune a piano successfully, just as the technical test measures a level of abilities in repairs and regulation.

For the Pianotech forum I will leave it at that, and confine any further comment to PTG-L.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Fred said:
"Nor do I think that the tuning test should be used as a political football"

I wish we could keep the politics out of the tuning exam, much less the whole exam process. But the PTG has made the tuning exam a political football, because it's only by becoming an RPT that a member can become politically active.

As I have been saying for a long time, not enough Associates are upgrading to RPT to make up for the loss of RPT's by attrition, (retiring or death). Having more RPT's in the Guild is not only important for political reasons, (more leadership), but it's also  important for it's financial stability. 98% of RPT"s renew their membership every year. For planning purposes that's a huge benefit.

So we need more RPT's. But every time I have said we need more RPT"s, the response has been, "if an Associate wants to become an RPT bad enough, he/she will do what it takes to pass the exams". While I agree with that statement artistically, politically, and for the financial well being of the Guild, I disagree. Unfortunately it has come down to: "We need them more than they need us". In other words, we need to do more than just encourage Associates to upgrade. We need to do something concrete to help them get there. And if it's the aural portion of the tuning exam that's keeping Associates from even starting the exam process, then perhaps we need to take a very close look at what can be done to change that.  And that's what the Board has agreed to do.

------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 15:32
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Since Ryan chose to link my name to his post, I want to clarify that I do not share his views. I believe it is high time that PTG looked seriously at its tuning test with a view to making it relevant to modern tuning practice, and I applaud the board for its courage in being willing to explore options for change. The devil is always in the details, but in any case I hardly think this is an "end of the world for aural tuning traditions." Nor do I think that the tuning test should be used as a political football. I think it should measure the ability of an examinee to tune a piano successfully, just as the technical test measures a level of abilities in repairs and regulation.

For the Pianotech forum I will leave it at that, and confine any further comment to PTG-L.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Yes! It is important enough to frequently be taught at all PTG
Meetings including chapter and convention meetings. We should all strive to have a basic understanding of the scientific side of music before we reach for the artistic side. Without this basic knowledge and understanding one should never be stamped RPT. Now, maybe the test should be re-evaluated in terms of acceptable standards but we all should have a working knowledge of aural tuning. Aural tuning knowledge should never be shelved.
-------------------------------------------
Thomas Black
Decatur AL
256-350-9315
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 6/14/2014 3:32:48 PM
From: fssturm@gmail.com
Subject: RE: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Since Ryan chose to link my name to his post, I want to clarify that I do not share his views. I believe it is high time that PTG looked seriously at its tuning test with a view to making it relevant to modern tuning practice, and I applaud the board for its courage in being willing to explore options for change. The devil is always in the details, but in any case I hardly think this is an "end of the world for aural tuning traditions." Nor do I think that the tuning test should be used as a political football. I think it should measure the ability of an examinee to tune a piano successfully, just as the technical test measures a level of abilities in repairs and regulation. For the Pianotech forum I will leave it at that, and confine any further comment to PTG-L. ------------------------------------------- Fred Sturm University of New Mexico http://fredsturm.net "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18 From: Ryan Sowers Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving? This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech . ------------------------------------------- Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion)  Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years.  I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question: With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant?  Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques?  ------------------------------------------- Ryan Sowers Olympia WA 360-705-4160 -------------------------------------------

I am part of a new generation of piano tuners that has never tuned an aural temperament. This August I will have been tuning for 19 years. I have a database of over 1900 customers and keep as busy as I want to be. I have two apps that I use now: TuneLab for Android and Tunic OnlyPure. So, for me, it's an obvious answer. I think it's an appropriate change. If someone wants to learn to tune a temperament I'm all for it, but it's not necessary to succeed in this business. 

I think we need to differentiate between a business and craft. I consider myself a businessman more than a craftsman. If you consider yourself more of a craftsman then you would be very concerned about preserving your craft and these changes would be viewed as negative. 

By the way. Let me be very clear. I don't claim that my tunings are superior to aural tunings but at the very least I would suggest that my tunings are adequate. If my understanding of the testing process is correct - that's all that is required to pass. An adequate tuning.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Well, somehow I can agree to disagree. To me, it's like learning the times tables. Do you need to learn the times tables nowadays? Not if you have a computing device. I have actually heard teachers say it's not necessary to learn them. Speling. There's an app for that. You can still understand wat ur meenig to sa. Yes, you can obviously use an electronic device, as you have demonstrated. Whucha gonna do if da battry goze flat? Anyway, I'm not going to argue.
I think your analysis about craftsman vs. businessman is right on. Each has a different role, and yet somehow we need to wear both hats. For me, it's more of a confirmation of a skill set that I developed over a long period of time. It's why I took the RPT test- to prove it. I don't have to sell my work with my mouth. My clients know from my demeanor and my approach to the piano what kind of professional I am. It's really a matter of pride. If that doesn't make it for you, fine.
I'm also an Amateur Radio operator. I have an Advanced Class license, which required me to learn the Morse code at high speed. There's been a long debate about licenses with or without the code requirement. Most guys/gals just use a mic rather than a code key, so why the need? Now the requirement is dropped, as far as I know. I've been out of it for a long while. Sort of reminds me of hazing. I got it, so should you!
Another example: My mother was an audiologist. She got a Master's Degree back in the '60s. But when she opened her business, most of her income was from fitting hearing aids. There was always a row about hearing aid stores and Costcos that just fitted hearing aids without understanding the pathology behind hearing loss and speech impediments. Who's right?
So, Scott, I understand your point. But, if we're going to call ourselves Piano Tuners, I'd like to know as much about it as I can. And I can tell if the machine has not done the job. I use a SAT 1, 25+ years old.
Whatever floats the boat.
Cheers!
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message------

I am part of a new generation of piano tuners that has never tuned an aural temperament. This August I will have been tuning for 19 years. I have a database of over 1900 customers and keep as busy as I want to be. I have two apps that I use now: TuneLab for Android and Tunic OnlyPure. So, for me, it's an obvious answer. I think it's an appropriate change. If someone wants to learn to tune a temperament I'm all for it, but it's not necessary to succeed in this business. 

I think we need to differentiate between a business and craft. I consider myself a businessman more than a craftsman. If you consider yourself more of a craftsman then you would be very concerned about preserving your craft and these changes would be viewed as negative. 

By the way. Let me be very clear. I don't claim that my tunings are superior to aural tunings but at the very least I would suggest that my tunings are adequate. If my understanding of the testing process is correct - that's all that is required to pass. An adequate tuning.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Ha! I like the battery goin' flat thing. Every time I hear it, it cracks me up ;-)  I always have at least 2 backup plans, maybe more. In 19 years I've never had to use any of them. I figure that if one day my device fails and all my backup plans fail I won't tune a piano that day. It's not the end of the world. 

You're right Paul that some people like to understand not just how to do something but how it works. That's cool. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 17:21
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Well, somehow I can agree to disagree. To me, it's like learning the times tables. Do you need to learn the times tables nowadays? Not if you have a computing device. I have actually heard teachers say it's not necessary to learn them. Speling. There's an app for that. You can still understand wat ur meenig to sa. Yes, you can obviously use an electronic device, as you have demonstrated. Whucha gonna do if da battry goze flat? Anyway, I'm not going to argue.
I think your analysis about craftsman vs. businessman is right on. Each has a different role, and yet somehow we need to wear both hats. For me, it's more of a confirmation of a skill set that I developed over a long period of time. It's why I took the RPT test- to prove it. I don't have to sell my work with my mouth. My clients know from my demeanor and my approach to the piano what kind of professional I am. It's really a matter of pride. If that doesn't make it for you, fine.
I'm also an Amateur Radio operator. I have an Advanced Class license, which required me to learn the Morse code at high speed. There's been a long debate about licenses with or without the code requirement. Most guys/gals just use a mic rather than a code key, so why the need? Now the requirement is dropped, as far as I know. I've been out of it for a long while. Sort of reminds me of hazing. I got it, so should you!
Another example: My mother was an audiologist. She got a Master's Degree back in the '60s. But when she opened her business, most of her income was from fitting hearing aids. There was always a row about hearing aid stores and Costcos that just fitted hearing aids without understanding the pathology behind hearing loss and speech impediments. Who's right?
So, Scott, I understand your point. But, if we're going to call ourselves Piano Tuners, I'd like to know as much about it as I can. And I can tell if the machine has not done the job. I use a SAT 1, 25+ years old.
Whatever floats the boat.
Cheers!
Paul McCloud
San Diego

Even though I went through and passed the aural exam I have no problem with the change.  Demonstrating aural unison competence would be fine with me.  Many people don't even tune equal temperament so why should we worry about losing an aural temperament standard?  It's already compromised by choice, if you want to look at it that way.  Even those who do tune ET don't, if you believe Bill Bremmer. 

Ninety-five percent of the craftsmanship required to tune a piano can be demonstrated by the stability test and the unison test.  As demonstrated by people's continued and expanding choices of various temperaments, the aural tuning of ET is the last thing that should prevent people from attaining RPT status.

It's also the 21st century.  Sorry, I know many of us still haven't left the 19th but it's time to get with reality.   

Fred's point about the need for the guild to increase the number of active and renewing participants is also a good one.  Otherwise, in the future the standard might be set by Pianoworld. 

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

To not be able to set the bearings when you discover, miles from base, that your beloved electronic tuning device has kicked the bucket or run out of battery and you haven't any spares. That's the occasion to rejoice in your fundamental ear training and your ability to get on with the job - with the added satisfaction  of having done it unaided. A piano tuner without these fundamental abilities is not a piano tuner IMO.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------
Hi Michael (and all) - While I respect your right to your opinion, I've got to say that making legitimate, hard-working technicians feel that they somehow don't make the grade is enough to keep a lot of good folks from joining or staying in the Guild. I know several such tuners myself who have quit the organization because of the perception that they are considered second-rate. For someone like myself, who relies on a Verituner to set his tunings, it is a bit frustrating to not be considered worthy of being recognized as a "registered" tuner / technician. Despite the fact that I've been in the business for over 40 years, despite the fact that I average 20 - 30 tunings week after week and am booked in for the entire upcoming year for tunings, despite the fact that I've built a well-equipped shop and have a constant flow of restoration jobs coming in and going out, despite the fact that I earn a 6 figure income doing what I do and am highly regarded by my customer base (check my facebook page at Behm Piano Service), despite the fact that I've contributed more articles and had more photos published in the Piano Technician Journal than any one else since its inception in 1958, despite the fact that Schaff Piano Supply Company paid me to personally write up a series of how-to articles for their website, despite the fact that I love what I do and wouldn't change places with the highest paid CEO in the land, despite all that I don't have what it takes to be recognized as a for-real tuner by the PTG and by individuals within the PTG such as yourself. If someone does a search on the PTG website for a tuner in their area, I'm not even listed. Lots of other hard-working folks are not listed either. Where's the motivation for those individuals to join the organization?

Were I allowed to use my Verituner to set the temperament from start to finish I would take the test at the next opportunity. However, I am not accorded that privilege, so I'll pass on it. While I have good enough hearing to set unisons by ear, when it comes to hearing the beats between partials it's just not there  for me. So I do what I need to do to get the job done. Lots of others are in the same boat. Not everyone is blessed with perfect hearing.

In my opinion, whether or not a technician is registered by the Guild should depend on one thing - whether he or she has the ability, using whatever tools he chooses to use, to tune and service a piano to  a high standard. If that attitude were the prevailing viewpoint of the Guild, I predict its membership numbers would improve. That's my opinion. Chuck Behm





Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 05:18
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

To not be able to set the bearings when you discover, miles from base, that your beloved electronic tuning device has kicked the bucket or run out of battery and you haven't any spares. That's the occasion to rejoice in your fundamental ear training and your ability to get on with the job - with the added satisfaction  of having done it unaided. A piano tuner without these fundamental abilities is not a piano tuner IMO.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Chuck,

Damn guy, no one could have expressed the truth of the matter better than you just have.

Hats off to you, Iowa dude!

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 09:28
From: Charles Behm
  ...In my opinion, whether or not a technician is registered by the Guild should depend on one thing - whether he or she has the ability, using whatever tools he chooses to use, to tune and service a piano to  a high standard. If that attitude were the prevailing viewpoint of the Guild, I predict its membership numbers would improve.  ...

There's another side to this coin as well - which I must tell. I was (have been) accused of using fast-fix methods to lay the bearings by using an ETD. "Not so!!" I reply. "Would you not expect at T/V repairman to use a meter?" At least we're not required to stick our fingers in the socket to measure the voltages! (Eyes light up, hair stands on end,  steam comes out of every orifice... Hmmm! 

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 09:28
From: Charles Behm
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------
Hi Michael (and all) - While I respect your right to your opinion, I've got to say that making legitimate, hard-working technicians feel that they somehow don't make the grade is enough to keep a lot of good folks from joining or staying in the Guild. I know several such tuners myself who have quit the organization because of the perception that they are considered second-rate. For someone like myself, who relies on a Verituner to set his tunings, it is a bit frustrating to not be considered worthy of being recognized as a "registered" tuner / technician. Despite the fact that I've been in the business for over 40 years, despite the fact that I average 20 - 30 tunings week after week and am booked in for the entire upcoming year for tunings, despite the fact that I've built a well-equipped shop and have a constant flow of restoration jobs coming in and going out, despite the fact that I earn a 6 figure income doing what I do and am highly regarded by my customer base (check my facebook page at Behm Piano Service), despite the fact that I've contributed more articles and had more photos published in the Piano Technician Journal than any one else since its inception in 1958, despite the fact that Schaff Piano Supply Company paid me to personally write up a series of how-to articles for their website, despite the fact that I love what I do and wouldn't change places with the highest paid CEO in the land, despite all that I don't have what it takes to be recognized as a for-real tuner by the PTG and by individuals within the PTG such as yourself. If someone does a search on the PTG website for a tuner in their area, I'm not even listed. Lots of other hard-working folks are not listed either. Where's the motivation for those individuals to join the organization?

Were I allowed to use my Verituner to set the temperament from start to finish I would take the test at the next opportunity. However, I am not accorded that privilege, so I'll pass on it. While I have good enough hearing to set unisons by ear, when it comes to hearing the beats between partials it's just not there  for me. So I do what I need to do to get the job done. Lots of others are in the same boat. Not everyone is blessed with perfect hearing.

In my opinion, whether or not a technician is registered by the Guild should depend on one thing - whether he or she has the ability, using whatever tools he chooses to use, to tune and service a piano to  a high standard. If that attitude were the prevailing viewpoint of the Guild, I predict its membership numbers would improve. That's my opinion. Chuck Behm





Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 05:18
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

To not be able to set the bearings when you discover, miles from base, that your beloved electronic tuning device has kicked the bucket or run out of battery and you haven't any spares. That's the occasion to rejoice in your fundamental ear training and your ability to get on with the job - with the added satisfaction  of having done it unaided. A piano tuner without these fundamental abilities is not a piano tuner IMO.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Okay Michael. A little sarcasm is appropriate here. If you do rely on an ETD then it behooves you to have backup. A power cord with you to plug in if your battery is running low. A charger in your car to charge up in-between appointments if you need to. A second device and tuning program. Purchasing a stronger battery that will last at least one day. I have a 5000 mah battery that will last two days if I need it to. Besides all that, if I'm not able to tune a piano one day because my device fails so what. The world will not come to a screeching halt.

So, what I hear you saying is that if you tune aurally there will never be a reason you can not tune a piano. So, you never get sick? Never have injured yourself? Never have had an accident on the way to an appointment? Never had a family emergency come up and had to cancel appointments? 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 05:18
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

To not be able to set the bearings when you discover, miles from base, that your beloved electronic tuning device has kicked the bucket or run out of battery and you haven't any spares. That's the occasion to rejoice in your fundamental ear training and your ability to get on with the job - with the added satisfaction  of having done it unaided. A piano tuner without these fundamental abilities is not a piano tuner IMO.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

When I began my business I attended a regional convention where I was challenged right away by Scott Colwes, who asked me if I tuned with an ETD or if I tuned aurally.  I answered that I tuned by ETD.  He very insistently and forcefully exhorted me to learn to tune aurally, saying it would make me a better tuner.  I didn't mind this insistence, because that was in my plans anyhow.  

Having subsequently learned to tune aurally I learned what he meant.  Sometimes the ETD is just not right, maybe just in a certain section, maybe overall.  ETDs have "bad ear days", too.  Being able to fall back on (proven) aural skills to correct those notes, sections or entire tunings is a real advantage.

Once, BEFORE I learned aural tuning skills, my ETD battery died in the course of a tuning.  I finished up aurally, not really knowing what I was doing, and how to check my note placements.  Later I asked the client, a piano teacher with "perfect pitch", how the tuning turned out and she said, "not very good."  Would that I had aural skills then.

So, YES, Scott, if you're reading this, aural tuning skills DO make me a better tuner, even though I usually (but not always) use an ETD.  And passing the tuning exam with its aural requirements gave me a certain confidence and sense of validation of those aural skills.

So I guess you'd have to say I'd resist removal of the aural section of the test.

Having said that, I've often said that a perhaps better idea of certification/validation of our skills might be modeled after the auto repair industry's ASE certifications.  In that industry a mechanic can take any one or any number of tests measuring different areas of expertise, such as Driveability or Electrical Systems or Heating/Air Conditioning, et al.  To be awarded a designation of "Master Mechanic" the technician must pass all of the tests.  WE could (in my view should) have certifications in tuning, repairs, regulation, rebuilding and refinishing.  To accomodate those who might like some sort of certification without aural testing, there might be a couple of levels of certification in the tuning area -- the "approved technician" for those who demonstrate competency aided by an ETD and a "master technician" for those who demonstrate both aural AND ETD skills.  Now I know that will never happen -- we're just too opinionated and contentious -- but that's my verbose two cents worth.

I'll shut up now.



-------------------------------------------
John Dorr, RPT
Montana Chapter 594
Helena, MT
406-594-1985
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

John Dorr <Now I know that will never happen -- we're just too opinionated and contentious -- but that's my verbose two cents worth.

Actually, the only reason this might never happen is because council chose to disenfranchise associates. There is no fully functional political voice to even discuss the matter, from both associates and from RPT's respective points of view.

It seems some are starting to see the folly in this from a practical standpoint. On the bright side, recognition of folly is a cautiously hopeful sign that thinking might be gaining momentum for some movement.

However, the greatest block to any movement will come from council which  is an exclusive body of RPT's. Since associates are excluded from PTG's organizational marketing, RPT's and thus council haveg a vested interest in excluding half the membership from access to a competitively useful marketing tool.  Given this vested interest, I'm not sure how any significant movement on this will ever happen. The only hope is that the practical results of the shortsightedness described above, by Wim and by others begins to show the disenfranchisement for the destructive force it always, and I mean always is.

Jim Ialeggio

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Caution: long post ahead.

Six or eight months ago a thread was started in Pianotech regarding pitch raising and, somewhat predictably, it turned into an aural vs ETD debate. I believe it was David Love who stated that those who had not used an ETD really had no business offering opinions regarding their use. Fair point.

This past February I purchased a copy of CyberTuner. Using the program myself was the only way to find out "what the fuss was all about". Believing it was important to get beyond the "newbie" stage I used the ETD for close to 200 tunings. In the end, I still prefer tuning aurally. Yes, the ETD gets pulled out occasionally for that last tuning after a long day or sometimes for major pitch raises, but I still tune aurally about 95% of the time.

However, my decision to continue tuning aurally is really more of a philosophical matter than technical. At my age (62) major change in a skill that was learned almost 40 years ago is hard. With the ETD I feel a little disconnected from the piano and from the history of our craft. Nonetheless, customers do not call on us because of our particular "tuning philosophy". They want their piano to be well tuned - period.

Using an ETD was something of an eye opener. While it may make take some of the difficulty out of temperament setting, it certainly does not make the job "easy". Tuning a piano well, even with the aid of an ETD, is still a very difficult job requiring a highly developed set of skills. Personally, I can't understand why someone would get into this business and not want to learn aural tuning just for the sake of meeting the challenge, learning "old fashioned" skills, etc., even if they end up using an ETD. Excuse me... there I go discussing philosophical matters again.  

As several others have pointed out here times have changed. Younger people especially have been raised with computers, cell phones, ipads, etc. The "there's an app for that" generation. Those of us who continue to tune aurally seem to be in the minority. I am sure that years ago skilled carpenters debated the use of hand tools vs. power tools.

All of this having been said, I agree with those who say that there must be some level of aural skills verification. Whether it is just unisons and stability, or whether a few octaves and a couple of fifths should be included.

Whatever the immediate outcome of this discussion, it is clear that either the exam requirements will change or the meaning of the "RPT" designation will become irrelevant to future generations.  


-------------------------------------------
Gerry Johnston
Haverhill, MA
gj@gjpianotuner.com
www.gjpianotuner.com
(978) 372-2250
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 10:47
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

John Dorr <Now I know that will never happen -- we're just too opinionated and contentious -- but that's my verbose two cents worth.

Actually, the only reason this might never happen is because council chose to disenfranchise associates. There is no fully functional political voice to even discuss the matter, from both associates and from RPT's respective points of view.

It seems some are starting to see the folly in this from a practical standpoint. On the bright side, recognition of folly is a cautiously hopeful sign that thinking might be gaining momentum for some movement.

However, the greatest block to any movement will come from council which  is an exclusive body of RPT's. Since associates are excluded from PTG's organizational marketing, RPT's and thus council haveg a vested interest in excluding half the membership from access to a competitively useful marketing tool.  Given this vested interest, I'm not sure how any significant movement on this will ever happen. The only hope is that the practical results of the shortsightedness described above, by Wim and by others begins to show the disenfranchisement for the destructive force it always, and I mean always is.

Jim Ialeggio

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Not sure that was me.  Everyone's entitled to an opinion, some are just more informed than others. 

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 12:08
From: Gerry Johnston
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Caution: long post ahead.

Six or eight months ago a thread was started in Pianotech regarding pitch raising and, somewhat predictably, it turned into an aural vs ETD debate. I believe it was David Love who stated that those who had not used an ETD really had no business offering opinions regarding their use. Fair point.

I typically stay out of these "discussions" because they are loop tapes,
replayed verbatim over and over forever with never a new thought. But
the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and
disinterest in anything but income abrades.

Without learning to tune aurally, you are a meter reader. Without the
knowledge and means to verify what your ETD tells you, you are not a
piano tuner. You just have a job, following what the display says with
minimal participation. If that satisfies you somehow, knock yourself out.

And no, that doesn't mean there is a holy aura around a craft like aural
tuning, to be spread across the sky with searchlights in inflated hype
for marketing purposes. It should be a basic requirement of your "job"
to make some minimal attempt to learn something about what you are so
proud of selling to others because your machine makes it possible for
you to do so. So your ETD has a full tuning schedule, and you carry it
between appointments and do what it says with no means of verifying what
it tells you. Aural tuning isn't an exulted and sacred thing. It's
fundamental education. It's the basic of basics to which you can add
whatever additional tools improve your results. It's the why instead of
the checklist of motions. Our world is quickly being reduced to small
electronic devices that presume to think for us, and too many are only
too willing to allow it. I think we ought to have some education and the
ammunition to disagree with our tools for the sake of the end result -
and for ourselves.
Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------

Ron - Your gift of sarcasm is undisputed - you're the king put-downs - however, my customers don't call my Verituner for appointments - they call me, because they know that when I get done, their piano sounds wonderful. How I arrive at that point is up to me. I'm the one holding the tuning hammer who has logged 20,000+ tunings. Chuck Behm




Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 12:36
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I typically stay out of these "discussions" because they are loop tapes,
replayed verbatim over and over forever with never a new thought. But
the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and
disinterest in anything but income abrades.

Without learning to tune aurally, you are a meter reader. Without the
knowledge and means to verify what your ETD tells you, you are not a
piano tuner. You just have a job, following what the display says with
minimal participation. If that satisfies you somehow, knock yourself out.

And no, that doesn't mean there is a holy aura around a craft like aural
tuning, to be spread across the sky with searchlights in inflated hype
for marketing purposes. It should be a basic requirement of your "job"
to make some minimal attempt to learn something about what you are so
proud of selling to others because your machine makes it possible for
you to do so. So your ETD has a full tuning schedule, and you carry it
between appointments and do what it says with no means of verifying what
it tells you. Aural tuning isn't an exulted and sacred thing. It's
fundamental education. It's the basic of basics to which you can add
whatever additional tools improve your results. It's the why instead of
the checklist of motions. Our world is quickly being reduced to small
electronic devices that presume to think for us, and too many are only
too willing to allow it. I think we ought to have some education and the
ammunition to disagree with our tools for the sake of the end result -
and for ourselves.
Ron N

-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------

"But the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and disinterest in anything but income abrades." Ron Nossaman

Also, Ron, if this comment is directed at myself I challenge you to find evidence of a lack of pride in my work. I describe the work I do in the shop every month in the pages of the Journal. Maybe my workmanship is sloppy in comparison to yours, I don't know, but I do take a great deal of pride in getting the job done right, whether it be shop work, repairs done in the field or tuning. And I only mention income to show that I'm not doing this as a hobby - it is my business and my life. Pardon my lack of diplomacy, but you can take your "meter reader" comment and shove it. Chuck Behm


Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 12:54
From: Charles Behm
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------

Ron - Your gift of sarcasm is undisputed - you're the king put-downs - however, my customers don't call my Verituner for appointments - they call me, because they know that when I get done, their piano sounds wonderful. How I arrive at that point is up to me. I'm the one holding the tuning hammer who has logged 20,000+ tunings. Chuck Behm




Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 12:36
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I typically stay out of these "discussions" because they are loop tapes,
replayed verbatim over and over forever with never a new thought. But
the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and
disinterest in anything but income abrades.

Without learning to tune aurally, you are a meter reader. Without the
knowledge and means to verify what your ETD tells you, you are not a
piano tuner. You just have a job, following what the display says with
minimal participation. If that satisfies you somehow, knock yourself out.

And no, that doesn't mean there is a holy aura around a craft like aural
tuning, to be spread across the sky with searchlights in inflated hype
for marketing purposes. It should be a basic requirement of your "job"
to make some minimal attempt to learn something about what you are so
proud of selling to others because your machine makes it possible for
you to do so. So your ETD has a full tuning schedule, and you carry it
between appointments and do what it says with no means of verifying what
it tells you. Aural tuning isn't an exulted and sacred thing. It's
fundamental education. It's the basic of basics to which you can add
whatever additional tools improve your results. It's the why instead of
the checklist of motions. Our world is quickly being reduced to small
electronic devices that presume to think for us, and too many are only
too willing to allow it. I think we ought to have some education and the
ammunition to disagree with our tools for the sake of the end result -
and for ourselves.
Ron N

This is really nonsense and way overstated.  Some aural tuners might, in fact, learn something about their own tuning skill set by examining the data available from an objective source if they weren't too proud or stubborn to do it.  I don't imagine you design rib scales by feel but rather put them through some type of spread sheet analysis. 

There are any number of people who take great pride in their work who also understand and accept for themselves what it takes to deliver high quality work time after time  The skill set required to tune a piano consistently and with stability is much greater than setting an aural temperament. 

Not infrequently do I follow aural tunings that are inconsistent and unimpressive, especially in the extremes of the piano.  Neither side has an undisputed claim to pride in their work, quality or a commitment to craftsmanship.  ETD users simply employ a tool not unlike many of the other tools we use. 

Being able to set an aural temperament is nice skill to have.  But it's not necessary any longer to deliver high level work.  The trade should accept this reality. 

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 12:36
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I typically stay out of these "discussions" because they are loop tapes,
replayed verbatim over and over forever with never a new thought. But
the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and
disinterest in anything but income abrades.

Without learning to tune aurally, you are a meter reader. Without the
knowledge and means to verify what your ETD tells you, you are not a
piano tuner. You just have a job, following what the display says with
minimal participation. If that satisfies you somehow, knock yourself out.

And no, that doesn't mean there is a holy aura around a craft like aural
tuning, to be spread across the sky with searchlights in inflated hype
for marketing purposes. It should be a basic requirement of your "job"
to make some minimal attempt to learn something about what you are so
proud of selling to others because your machine makes it possible for
you to do so. So your ETD has a full tuning schedule, and you carry it
between appointments and do what it says with no means of verifying what
it tells you. Aural tuning isn't an exulted and sacred thing. It's
fundamental education. It's the basic of basics to which you can add
whatever additional tools improve your results. It's the why instead of
the checklist of motions. Our world is quickly being reduced to small
electronic devices that presume to think for us, and too many are only
too willing to allow it. I think we ought to have some education and the
ammunition to disagree with our tools for the sake of the end result -
and for ourselves.
Ron N

On 6/15/2014 11:54 AM, Charles Behm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>>
> Ron - Your gift of sarcasm is undisputed

There was no sarcasm in the post. It is exactly what I think, and if it
was aimed at you, I would have addressed you directly as I have in the
past when I disagreed with you. It's not about you, it's about just what
I said.
Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

I'd like to clarify the way I tune with my ETD's. I have always tuned the unisons by ear even though that wasn't how I was taught, and even though I have a program (Tunic OnlyPure) that is capable of tuning incredible unisons. I do listen to what's going on especially in the break between the wound string and plain wire. I find that quite often I disagree with my ETD. I take great pride in what I do but don't take myself too seriously. Come on, it's only pianos where talking about. I'm not doing brain surgery or designing spaceships. But I can take a spinet piano from 110 cents flat to right on A440 in 2 hours and not break any strings. A minor miracle if you ask me. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 13:01
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 11:54 AM, Charles Behm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>>
> Ron - Your gift of sarcasm is undisputed

There was no sarcasm in the post. It is exactly what I think, and if it
was aimed at you, I would have addressed you directly as I have in the
past when I disagreed with you. It's not about you, it's about just what
I said.
Ron N

I don't really think there any further need to discuss this topic - 'horses for courses' type of thing. But for most of my tuning life (and I'm 80 next birthday) I have been tuning between 8 - 10 pianos a day and the ability to keep this up has been aided by my ETD's - and I have had many of them - and my ability to tune Aurally. 
The one real time when an ETD is worth its' weight in geld (or whatever your £$ currency is) is when using one as an 'external reference', unaffected by the stresses inherent when pitch raising or lowering. And I have been there more times than I care to remember.
For over a quarter of a Century I was, until I retired, Piano Tuner, Harpsichord Tuner, Fortepiano Tuner and Pit Manager at Glyndebourne. In this capacity I was required to raise and lower pitches according to the Opera Composer of the day. It could be A=415 or A=432 or even A=440. Any one of these pitches could be up for grabs and the keyboard pitch changed as required. I was the one to do it. A day there could require me to tune up to three Harpsichords - for Performance or Rehearsal - twice a day and up to the Interval tuning at 7 - 8 o'clock in the evening. Plus any Piano as required. There was also, of course, U.T. - which is another side to this coin. 
So for this work and to get me through the pressure of an excellent and reliable tuning every single time I used a number of devices, be they ETD or Aural - or even a combination of the two.
This is why there should be no heated discussion here, in fact no discussion is required at all, really. Every tuner must stick to what they do best and then bank the proceeds.   Michael (UK)
ps. I'm also a part-time brain surgeon and a dab hand with a soldering gun.
-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 13:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I'd like to clarify the way I tune with my ETD's. I have always tuned the unisons by ear even though that wasn't how I was taught, and even though I have a program (Tunic OnlyPure) that is capable of tuning incredible unisons. I do listen to what's going on especially in the break between the wound string and plain wire. I find that quite often I disagree with my ETD. I take great pride in what I do but don't take myself too seriously. Come on, it's only pianos where talking about. I'm not doing brain surgery or designing spaceships. But I can take a spinet piano from 110 cents flat to right on A440 in 2 hours and not break any strings. A minor miracle if you ask me. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 13:01
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 11:54 AM, Charles Behm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
>>
> Ron - Your gift of sarcasm is undisputed

There was no sarcasm in the post. It is exactly what I think, and if it
was aimed at you, I would have addressed you directly as I have in the
past when I disagreed with you. It's not about you, it's about just what
I said.
Ron N

Hello I am a current examiner, and have a few thoughts on this. Firstly, let me prefix this to expressing openness to change. But before throwing out aural requirements altogether I have a list of thoughts and observations that feed into thinking on the subject matter. This list does not to state a conclusion, not to dictate what should be, but to pose a series of questions and observations that I think are worthy of reflection and discussion. Fundamentally, is the aural tradition worth preserving? If we don't preserve it who will? If that is our task, and it is removed from the exam, what form will that then take? Are we truly seeking a minimum standard. My understanding is that when the tuning exam was instituted, it was set up so only 20% could pass it, To raise standards. Do we wish to aspire to raise standards, and if so, so aural skills contribute to that. My universal experience is that learning aural skills truly does raise personnel standards. As a CTE I get called upon to tutor and assist people in their journey to meet the exam. Everyone comes away with raised awareness of the fine negotiations we navigate. As a CTE, working with other CTEs I have continued to learn and gain understanding regarding the negotiations we navigate. Professional tuners of decades often come away surprised that they have become aware of new tests, and greater awareness that they never knew they were missing. Too many times a practicing professional tuner attempts the exam and demonstrates that they know few, and sometime no tests. I have personally seen practicing professionals that I know can produce spectacular sounding machine tunings get into trouble on occasion because something somewhere went amiss, and the client is complaining about all the wolf fifths in the bass...... A particular case I'm thinking of was an example of not having any aural skills, and not recognizing the problem. We do live in an age where spell check software is eliminating the need for honing spelling skills. Essays are complied by students from a hundred online sources. With the click of a mouse a hundred book reviews are at students fingertips, and the thought of reading it all for oneself first, processing it, having ones own option, and developing ones thinking,then writing is too much work. Mathematic skills seem redundant, for the calculator and spreadsheet does it all. Skill sets are universally being replaced with automated processes. Is this what we want? Is this good? Are we just technicians? We do actually work for artists. The craft of making instruments has long been considered an art. Is this art and science, or just science? Do we related to artists better as artists, or as technicians? My favorite moments in this trade have been when coaching someone who has been doing this for years and being privileged to witness that moment when their eyes literally open wide when they understand coincidental partials for the first time, or see ghosting effectively demonstrated for the first time, or get how a piano can tell us just how much to "stretch" for the first time. I've had a few such revelation moments, even long after becoming an a RPT, when doing the CTE exam, and even though getting 100% on unisons! seeing just how they were still off .3, .6 and so on, and could be better. I started let the machine teach me to tune unisons better. I have seen aural skills teach machine tuners how to monitor the result much better, and start hearing and demanding things they never heard before. Professional Musicians spend a lifetime honing their skills, chasing a moving target. Tens of thousands of hours later they are still learning. These are the people we ultimately serve. I strive to emulate a few of them I admire. How to teach honing aural skills effectively, aside from the exam question. Started some videos in an attempt to work on that problem, and indeed to revisit and finish them this summer. ------------------------------------------- David Renaud Duclos QC 613-288-9046 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 06-15-2014 13:01 From: Ronald Nossaman Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving? On 6/15/2014 11:54 AM, Charles Behm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote: >> > Ron - Your gift of sarcasm is undisputed There was no sarcasm in the post. It is exactly what I think, and if it was aimed at you, I would have addressed you directly as I have in the past when I disagreed with you. It's not about you, it's about just what I said. Ron N

On 6/15/2014 12:22 PM, Charles Behm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> ------------------------------------------- Charles Behm Behm Piano
> Boone IA 515-432-1190 -------------------------------------------
>
> "But the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and
> disinterest in anything but income abrades." Ron Nossaman
>
> Also, Ron, if this comment is directed at myself I challenge you to
> find evidence of a lack of pride in my work.

Pay attention Chuck. As I said, this was NOT addressed to you, and I see
no evidence that I mentioned ANYTHING but tuning, in spite of what you
apparently imagine. I mentioned what has been an often stated
justification that a full schedule and accompanying income level is
proof of expertise. My point, which ought to be ascertainable by reading
the post, is about something else.

Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

"Without learning to tune aurally, you are a meter reader. Without the 
knowledge and means to verify what your ETD tells you, you are not a 
piano tuner. You just have a job, following what the display says with 
minimal participation. If that satisfies you somehow, knock yourself out."

Come on Ron. Let's be honest here. If your comments weren't directed at me, Chuck and others then who? 

You may disagree with my method of tuning but I take offense at not being considered a piano tuner. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 13:41
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 12:22 PM, Charles Behm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> ------------------------------------------- Charles Behm Behm Piano
> Boone IA 515-432-1190 -------------------------------------------
>
> "But the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and
> disinterest in anything but income abrades." Ron Nossaman
>
> Also, Ron, if this comment is directed at myself I challenge you to
> find evidence of a lack of pride in my work.

Pay attention Chuck. As I said, this was NOT addressed to you, and I see
no evidence that I mentioned ANYTHING but tuning, in spite of what you
apparently imagine. I mentioned what has been an often stated
justification that a full schedule and accompanying income level is
proof of expertise. My point, which ought to be ascertainable by reading
the post, is about something else.

Ron N

I'm an ETD tuner who aspires to achieve RPT status, primarily for personal reasons, but I do believe that my business would benefit greatly as well.

Perhaps I'm not proactive enough, or perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places or not paying close enough attention, but in the three + years that I've been a member of the PTG, I recall very few opportunities offered by the PTG to those who wish to learn to tune aurally to do so. Perhaps I am mistaken in having such an expectation. After all, I know that the PTG is not a piano technology school, per se. I do recall a couple of recent articles in the journal on aural tuning 101, as well as one workshop recently held at the shop of a local technician, but other than that, the only opportunities I have seen offered are those at major conventions, which are quite inaccessible - for me, at least. The trouble for me has been that the combination of the intensiveness, distance, infrequency, and/or cost of conventions has thus far made them impossible for me to be a participant. I estimate that I'm not alone in this. I've also requested of my local chapter on several occasions to hold classes on aural tuning, but nothing has come of it thus far.

I do believe that the changes that occur in the brain as one learns / has learned to tune aurally cannot be substituted by a device - one that allows the omission of this skill. What other skills and science, known, and yet to be discovered, may be lost as unforeseen costs to doing away with aural tuning? I believe, albeit as one who cannot masterfully tune aurally, that if we are to do away with aural tuning, much will be lost. And if that is true, why would the PTG choose such a path?

I have "learned" to hear things that I had never before heard, until I began to make efforts to tune aurally.

If an artist says "I'd like the piano to sound a little more....intimate, melancholy", is a tuner without advanced aural skills and an in0depth understanding of temperament going to be able to satisfy? Will music suffer? I believe that risk to be (further) homogeneity.

Without the intention of straying off-topic, I respectfully would like to submit the following: I wonder if the discussion of how to make learning to tune aurally more accessible to those who desire to do so might be a better discussion to have rather than whether or not the aural test should be removed entirely. Given the time and practice needed to develop the skills required to tune aurally, a class series, rather than intensive, one or two-day workshops I believe would of tremendous benefit. Even a detailed video series made with a good piano, where the beats are clearly audible, would surely and significantly augment the PTG experience for many associates. I apologize if I have missed it, if it exists. So far, though, I have found little in the way on this topic offered in video format.

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 14:05
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

"Without learning to tune aurally, you are a meter reader. Without the 
knowledge and means to verify what your ETD tells you, you are not a 
piano tuner. You just have a job, following what the display says with 
minimal participation. If that satisfies you somehow, knock yourself out."

Come on Ron. Let's be honest here. If your comments weren't directed at me, Chuck and others then who? 

You may disagree with my method of tuning but I take offense at not being considered a piano tuner. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 13:41
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 12:22 PM, Charles Behm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> ------------------------------------------- Charles Behm Behm Piano
> Boone IA 515-432-1190 -------------------------------------------
>
> "But the lack of pride in skills acquired and the disregard of and
> disinterest in anything but income abrades." Ron Nossaman
>
> Also, Ron, if this comment is directed at myself I challenge you to
> find evidence of a lack of pride in my work.

Pay attention Chuck. As I said, this was NOT addressed to you, and I see
no evidence that I mentioned ANYTHING but tuning, in spite of what you
apparently imagine. I mentioned what has been an often stated
justification that a full schedule and accompanying income level is
proof of expertise. My point, which ought to be ascertainable by reading
the post, is about something else.

Ron N

On 6/15/2014 1:05 PM, Scott Kerns via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

> Come on Ron. Let's be honest here. If your comments weren't directed
> at me, Chuck and others then who?

And others, that's who. I'm being entirely honest as I try my best to
be, such good as it does me. Hundreds of people have said the same thing
on the lists for many years, not just the last one that mentioned it.
I'd hope that attention spans are longer than a few seconds, despite
evidence to the contrary. I consider aural skills to be indispensable to
anyone calling himself a tuner, and every single ETD tuner who never
learned to tune aurally makes the point that he aurally checks what the
ETD says. I can certainly see the benefit for an aural tuner who has
adopted ETD use, as he has the skills already and has the best of both
worlds, but if aural tuning isn't necessary to learn at all, why and how
does one verify what the ETD says and why make very sure that it's
mentioned?

Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

On 6/15/2014 1:25 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> I'm an ETD tuner who aspires to achieve RPT status, primarily for
> personal reasons, but I do believe that my business would benefit
> greatly as well.

Perhaps, but I expect your tunings would.


> Perhaps I'm not proactive enough, or perhaps I'm looking in the wrong
> places or not paying close enough attention, but in the three + years
> that I've been a member of the PTG, I recall very few opportunities
> offered by the PTG to those who wish to learn to tune aurally to do
> so.

This has always been a problem. learning aural tuning seems to me to be
mostly an occasional demonstration or "connection", followed by a lot of
hours integrating it into your understanding and methods, followed by
more bits of information. I don't see anyone learning aural tuning in a
class, but I could well be wrong. I'd advise reading through the many
well done series of Journal articles done through the years, and working
through as much of that as you can on your own in the next year. This
will give you some basis by which to use what you can learn from
individual instruction because you will recognize where it fits in the
scheme of things and understand what it's good for and what it tells
you. All sorts of mental lights go on when this happens, but you do need
something to relate it to. Using an ETD, you're already familiar with
how strings move and feel, so that's one trauma you won't have to deal
with along with the rest. Rick Baldassin wrote a fine book on the
subject too, but I'm not sure where it can be gotten now. Someone else
will know, and will hopefully say, with other suggestions.

I don't see how you won't be glad you did, when you compare what you
know a few years from now with what you know now and see what you were
missing. David Renaud's post is an excellent assessment, I think. Go for it.
Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Yes, my tunings certainly would, and that is what would give me greater personal satisfaction. In surmising that business would benefit, I image that my quality of client would improve, not necessarily the quality of my bank account.

On tuning classes, I'm very much a tactile and observing sort of learner and make progress much faster through mimicry; literary learning can be quite a struggle. At 35, I do realize that I'm in something of a minority in this, which is fine. Often what I read I find too abstruse to understand without a lot of follow-up q&a. Perhaps I lack much prerequisite knowledge. Anyway, I do see your point. 

At any rate, I'm not convinced that technological advancement should be the basis for the elimination of the temperament part of the aural test. If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain, scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 15:17
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 1:25 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> I'm an ETD tuner who aspires to achieve RPT status, primarily for
> personal reasons, but I do believe that my business would benefit
> greatly as well.

Perhaps, but I expect your tunings would.


> Perhaps I'm not proactive enough, or perhaps I'm looking in the wrong
> places or not paying close enough attention, but in the three + years
> that I've been a member of the PTG, I recall very few opportunities
> offered by the PTG to those who wish to learn to tune aurally to do
> so.

This has always been a problem. learning aural tuning seems to me to be
mostly an occasional demonstration or "connection", followed by a lot of
hours integrating it into your understanding and methods, followed by
more bits of information. I don't see anyone learning aural tuning in a
class, but I could well be wrong. I'd advise reading through the many
well done series of Journal articles done through the years, and working
through as much of that as you can on your own in the next year. This
will give you some basis by which to use what you can learn from
individual instruction because you will recognize where it fits in the
scheme of things and understand what it's good for and what it tells
you. All sorts of mental lights go on when this happens, but you do need
something to relate it to. Using an ETD, you're already familiar with
how strings move and feel, so that's one trauma you won't have to deal
with along with the rest. Rick Baldassin wrote a fine book on the
subject too, but I'm not sure where it can be gotten now. Someone else
will know, and will hopefully say, with other suggestions.

I don't see how you won't be glad you did, when you compare what you
know a few years from now with what you know now and see what you were
missing. David Renaud's post is an excellent assessment, I think. Go for it.
Ron N

As one who doesn't use those fancy ETD's -- only a strobe with aural checks -- may I ask? Because many, if not most, of our tuning clientele don't own 6' or larger grand pianos (the current standard testing piano) can the new ETD's maneuver around poorly scaled spinet and console pianos? If they can't, it would seem that some aural skills would be needed to compromise for poor scaling.

-------------------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

Roger

In most instances, an ETD can do a better job of tuning those poorly scaled pianos, not only around the break, but also the last couple of notes, and the top notes.  

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 16:58
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?


As one who doesn't use those fancy ETD's -- only a strobe with aural checks -- may I ask? Because many, if not most, of our tuning clientele don't own 6' or larger grand pianos (the current standard testing piano) can the new ETD's maneuver around poorly scaled spinet and console pianos? If they can't, it would seem that some aural skills would be needed to compromise for poor scaling.

-------------------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

My experience is mostly with Tunelab. I am unclear about the difference in tuning curves that the different devices produce - my hunch is that they are all very close (assuming that similar stretch options are in effect). I've been experimenting more with using Tunelab since I downloaded the trial version onto my Android phone. 

On small pianos I find that Tunelab's choices for the last several notes leading down to the bass/tenor break are usually too sharp, i.e. the thirds slow down to much and the 5ths sound too busy. So I usually push those notes flatter, as much as I can and still find the octaves acceptable. 

To make the best choices you have to understand what compromises are necessary to get the most musicality out of the instrument. 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 17:26
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Roger

In most instances, an ETD can do a better job of tuning those poorly scaled pianos, not only around the break, but also the last couple of notes, and the top notes.  

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 16:58
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?


As one who doesn't use those fancy ETD's -- only a strobe with aural checks -- may I ask? Because many, if not most, of our tuning clientele don't own 6' or larger grand pianos (the current standard testing piano) can the new ETD's maneuver around poorly scaled spinet and console pianos? If they can't, it would seem that some aural skills would be needed to compromise for poor scaling.

-------------------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

I'm hesitant to wade in here, as these arguments about aural vs. ETD skills don't usually go anywhere good.  My thoughts here are not meant to disparage ETD users.  PTG members who have passed their tuning test are RPT members as far as I am concerned.  I also know many many non-members who tune aurally and with ETDs alike, who are the best tuners I know. I am merely explaining my own feelings about my own practice.

I have an ETD, and I use it a good portion of the time, but I just started that a couple of years ago, I was a strictly aural tuner for 15 years.  I still do a good number of my tunings strictly aurally, as I've noticed that if I strictly rely on the ETD for a copule of weeks, the aural skills suffer and it can take me a while to figure out the temperament, etc, etc.  It's a matter of maintaining the aural skills I worked very hard to attain.  When I tune aurally, i feel proud of the work I put in, I feel part of a long tradition, a tradition of craft.  For hundreds of years, tuners (and musicians who tune) have been navigating the temperament, adjusting beat rates, and ultimately trying to deliver a beautiful sounding instrument, an instrument whose ultimate goal is the making of music, not the perfection of temperament.  My two c.

-------------------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 18:44
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

My experience is mostly with Tunelab. I am unclear about the difference in tuning curves that the different devices produce - my hunch is that they are all very close (assuming that similar stretch options are in effect). I've been experimenting more with using Tunelab since I downloaded the trial version onto my Android phone. 

On small pianos I find that Tunelab's choices for the last several notes leading down to the bass/tenor break are usually too sharp, i.e. the thirds slow down to much and the 5ths sound too busy. So I usually push those notes flatter, as much as I can and still find the octaves acceptable. 

To make the best choices you have to understand what compromises are necessary to get the most musicality out of the instrument. 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 17:26
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Roger

In most instances, an ETD can do a better job of tuning those poorly scaled pianos, not only around the break, but also the last couple of notes, and the top notes.  

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 16:58
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?


As one who doesn't use those fancy ETD's -- only a strobe with aural checks -- may I ask? Because many, if not most, of our tuning clientele don't own 6' or larger grand pianos (the current standard testing piano) can the new ETD's maneuver around poorly scaled spinet and console pianos? If they can't, it would seem that some aural skills would be needed to compromise for poor scaling.

-------------------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

A good point. I don't believe this is a discussion about the superiority of electronic vs. aural tuning, but rather a discussion of the importance of preserving aural temperament, as the subject asks.

The question here is whether or not the aural temperament portion of the tuning exam be preserved, and my answer is, undoubtedly, yes. Again, I make no criticisms about one's preferred method.

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 20:52
From: Zeno Wood
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I'm hesitant to wade in here, as these arguments about aural vs. ETD skills don't usually go anywhere good.  My thoughts here are not meant to disparage ETD users.  PTG members who have passed their tuning test are RPT members as far as I am concerned.  I also know many many non-members who tune aurally and with ETDs alike, who are the best tuners I know. I am merely explaining my own feelings about my own practice.

I have an ETD, and I use it a good portion of the time, but I just started that a couple of years ago, I was a strictly aural tuner for 15 years.  I still do a good number of my tunings strictly aurally, as I've noticed that if I strictly rely on the ETD for a copule of weeks, the aural skills suffer and it can take me a while to figure out the temperament, etc, etc.  It's a matter of maintaining the aural skills I worked very hard to attain.  When I tune aurally, i feel proud of the work I put in, I feel part of a long tradition, a tradition of craft.  For hundreds of years, tuners (and musicians who tune) have been navigating the temperament, adjusting beat rates, and ultimately trying to deliver a beautiful sounding instrument, an instrument whose ultimate goal is the making of music, not the perfection of temperament.  My two c.

-------------------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 18:44
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

My experience is mostly with Tunelab. I am unclear about the difference in tuning curves that the different devices produce - my hunch is that they are all very close (assuming that similar stretch options are in effect). I've been experimenting more with using Tunelab since I downloaded the trial version onto my Android phone. 

On small pianos I find that Tunelab's choices for the last several notes leading down to the bass/tenor break are usually too sharp, i.e. the thirds slow down to much and the 5ths sound too busy. So I usually push those notes flatter, as much as I can and still find the octaves acceptable. 

To make the best choices you have to understand what compromises are necessary to get the most musicality out of the instrument. 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 17:26
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Roger

In most instances, an ETD can do a better job of tuning those poorly scaled pianos, not only around the break, but also the last couple of notes, and the top notes.  

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 16:58
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?


As one who doesn't use those fancy ETD's -- only a strobe with aural checks -- may I ask? Because many, if not most, of our tuning clientele don't own 6' or larger grand pianos (the current standard testing piano) can the new ETD's maneuver around poorly scaled spinet and console pianos? If they can't, it would seem that some aural skills would be needed to compromise for poor scaling.

-------------------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain, scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?

To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade overall to the organization.

There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that, but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of it.
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 18:44
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

My experience is mostly with Tunelab. I am unclear about the difference in tuning curves that the different devices produce - my hunch is that they are all very close (assuming that similar stretch options are in effect). I've been experimenting more with using Tunelab since I downloaded the trial version onto my Android phone. 

On small pianos I find that Tunelab's choices for the last several notes leading down to the bass/tenor break are usually too sharp, i.e. the thirds slow down to much and the 5ths sound too busy. So I usually push those notes flatter, as much as I can and still find the octaves acceptable. 

To make the best choices you have to understand what compromises are necessary to get the most musicality out of the instrument. 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 17:26
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Roger

In most instances, an ETD can do a better job of tuning those poorly scaled pianos, not only around the break, but also the last couple of notes, and the top notes.  

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 16:58
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?


As one who doesn't use those fancy ETD's -- only a strobe with aural checks -- may I ask? Because many, if not most, of our tuning clientele don't own 6' or larger grand pianos (the current standard testing piano) can the new ETD's maneuver around poorly scaled spinet and console pianos? If they can't, it would seem that some aural skills would be needed to compromise for poor scaling.

-------------------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-14-2014 14:18
From: Ryan Sowers
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

On 6/15/2014 7:07 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> This is really nonsense and way overstated.

As you said, everyone's entitled to an opinion.


> Some aural tuners might,
> in fact, learn something about their own tuning skill set by
> examining the data available from an objective source if they weren't
> too proud or stubborn to do it. I don't imagine you design rib
> scales by feel but rather put them through some type of spread sheet
> analysis.

Correct, I don't pull rib scales out of the air any more than an aural
tuner does a tuning. But I don't press a button and produce one
automatically either, needing only to cut it out and glue it on
following what the spreadsheet gives me without understanding something
of the process. I do very like what an ETD user with aural tuning
experience does, with a combination of methods.


> There are any number of people who take great pride in their work who
> also understand and accept for themselves what it takes to deliver
> high quality work time after time

?


> The skill set required to tune a
> piano consistently and with stability is much greater than setting an
> aural temperament.

There is considerably more to aural tuning than just setting a
temperament. Yet again, an argument against something I didn't say.


> Not infrequently do I follow aural tunings that are inconsistent and
> unimpressive, especially in the extremes of the piano.

Likewise. Tuning aurally isn't a guarantee of anything at all. Another
argument I didn't make.

> Neither side
> has an undisputed claim to pride in their work, quality or a
> commitment to craftsmanship. ETD users simply employ a tool not
> unlike many of the other tools we use.

Before turning someone loose with a band saw, I'd like to be assured
they know what it is they're cutting out, and to recognize problems when
they happen. Another minority opinion apparently.

Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

ETD's have evolved into very good tools for studying and practicing piano tuning. Having the skill to actually tune well without them is a benchmark of professionalism. How do you think the tuning programs were developed? The developers of ETD's didn't develop a program for tuning by ignoring what the best practices in piano tuning are. They used their educated ears. They studied the field until they mastered it. Not a good idea to give up on that standard.

Maybe a testing regime that proves your ears and brain work well enough to determine when a piano is properly tuned would work for franchising non-aural tuners. In other word require the examinee to find the deliberate errors in a four octave temperament by ear alone.

-------------------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 20:55
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 7:07 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> This is really nonsense and way overstated.

As you said, everyone's entitled to an opinion.


> Some aural tuners might,
> in fact, learn something about their own tuning skill set by
> examining the data available from an objective source if they weren't
> too proud or stubborn to do it. I don't imagine you design rib
> scales by feel but rather put them through some type of spread sheet
> analysis.

Correct, I don't pull rib scales out of the air any more than an aural
tuner does a tuning. But I don't press a button and produce one
automatically either, needing only to cut it out and glue it on
following what the spreadsheet gives me without understanding something
of the process. I do very like what an ETD user with aural tuning
experience does, with a combination of methods.


> There are any number of people who take great pride in their work who
> also understand and accept for themselves what it takes to deliver
> high quality work time after time

?


> The skill set required to tune a
> piano consistently and with stability is much greater than setting an
> aural temperament.

There is considerably more to aural tuning than just setting a
temperament. Yet again, an argument against something I didn't say.


> Not infrequently do I follow aural tunings that are inconsistent and
> unimpressive, especially in the extremes of the piano.

Likewise. Tuning aurally isn't a guarantee of anything at all. Another
argument I didn't make.

> Neither side
> has an undisputed claim to pride in their work, quality or a
> commitment to craftsmanship. ETD users simply employ a tool not
> unlike many of the other tools we use.

Before turning someone loose with a band saw, I'd like to be assured
they know what it is they're cutting out, and to recognize problems when
they happen. Another minority opinion apparently.

Ron N

I think that's a very good idea, Ed.  ETD users wouldn't have to tune an aural temperament, but they would have to prove that they can hear mistakes without cybernetic assistance.

-------------------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:16
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

ETD's have evolved into very good tools for studying and practicing piano tuning. Having the skill to actually tune well without them is a benchmark of professionalism. How do you think the tuning programs were developed? The developers of ETD's didn't develop a program for tuning by ignoring what the best practices in piano tuning are. They used their educated ears. They studied the field until they mastered it. Not a good idea to give up on that standard.

Maybe a testing regime that proves your ears and brain work well enough to determine when a piano is properly tuned would work for franchising non-aural tuners. In other word require the examinee to find the deliberate errors in a four octave temperament by ear alone.

-------------------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 20:55
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 7:07 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> This is really nonsense and way overstated.

As you said, everyone's entitled to an opinion.


> Some aural tuners might,
> in fact, learn something about their own tuning skill set by
> examining the data available from an objective source if they weren't
> too proud or stubborn to do it. I don't imagine you design rib
> scales by feel but rather put them through some type of spread sheet
> analysis.

Correct, I don't pull rib scales out of the air any more than an aural
tuner does a tuning. But I don't press a button and produce one
automatically either, needing only to cut it out and glue it on
following what the spreadsheet gives me without understanding something
of the process. I do very like what an ETD user with aural tuning
experience does, with a combination of methods.


> There are any number of people who take great pride in their work who
> also understand and accept for themselves what it takes to deliver
> high quality work time after time

?


> The skill set required to tune a
> piano consistently and with stability is much greater than setting an
> aural temperament.

There is considerably more to aural tuning than just setting a
temperament. Yet again, an argument against something I didn't say.


> Not infrequently do I follow aural tunings that are inconsistent and
> unimpressive, especially in the extremes of the piano.

Likewise. Tuning aurally isn't a guarantee of anything at all. Another
argument I didn't make.

> Neither side
> has an undisputed claim to pride in their work, quality or a
> commitment to craftsmanship. ETD users simply employ a tool not
> unlike many of the other tools we use.

Before turning someone loose with a band saw, I'd like to be assured
they know what it is they're cutting out, and to recognize problems when
they happen. Another minority opinion apparently.

Ron N

Comments inserted

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 20:55
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 7:07 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> This is really nonsense and way overstated.

As you said, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

Yes I did but I also said that some are more informed than others. 


> Some aural tuners might,
> in fact, learn something about their own tuning skill set by
> examining the data available from an objective source if they weren't
> too proud or stubborn to do it. I don't imagine you design rib
> scales by feel but rather put them through some type of spread sheet
> analysis.

Correct, I don't pull rib scales out of the air any more than an aural
tuner does a tuning. But I don't press a button and produce one
automatically either, needing only to cut it out and glue it on
following what the spreadsheet gives me without understanding something
of the process. I do very like what an ETD user with aural tuning
experience does, with a combination of methods.

If you were a really skilled soundboard builder you would be able to design that ribscale by feel, don't you think?  Rhetorical question because of course the answer is no.  That skill is not required.  And that's not quite what happens is it?  Measurements are taken and a rib scale is calculated.  If your criteria for determining what is a proper rib scale is off how will you know until you build the piano and hear it?  Well this isn't so unlike tuning with an ETD.   Measurements are taken and a overall tuning curve is calculated which includes the temperament.  The difference is that if the ETD is off all they have to do is retune the piano.  You have to take the piano apart and start over.  Which customer is more at risk by the reliance on technology?  Yet you represent yourself as a skilled craftsman, no?  And I'm sure you are.  You might say, "but I have experience and can tell if it will work or not".  Do you imagine that those who have decades of experience tuning using ETDs and a clientele to back that up are any less craftsman than you relying on the spreadsheet that you built yourself to design a soundboard? 

Most ETD users that I know don't double check the temperament though many (if not most) do monitor octaves.   All of them use aural skills to set unisons.  All of them rely on aural and lever skills to create stability.  So ETD users all have aural skills.  They also have something else, which is a technological skill to check their work.   Knowing how ETD users tune and with what set of skills might help you here.  An issue of informed opinion as opposed to just opinion perhaps.  If ETD users don't have aural skills they won't pass the aural unisons part of the test.  The octaves part of the test may still be in question as well.   I don't know.  So far the discussion has focused mostly on the temperament part. 

For the most part, assuming parity in tuning lever skills, ETDs will outperform aural tuners on the accuracy of temperament setting  pretty much every time, especially in day to day practice.  Using the tuning test that would be a pretty easy thing to verify.  The reality is, in practice people can get away with variations in the temperament, and do.  Some don't even tune an equal temperament and, the report is, customers love it!  So why the fuss. 


> There are any number of people who take great pride in their work who
> also understand and accept for themselves what it takes to deliver
> high quality work time after time

?

Your implication was that people who have difficulty setting aural temperaments lack pride in their work, are simple meter readers and are willing to sacrifice quality just to make a buck.   I simply responded to that above and below.

> The skill set required to tune a
> piano consistently and with stability is much greater than setting an
> aural temperament.

There is considerably more to aural tuning than just setting a
temperament. Yet again, an argument against something I didn't say.

Yes there is, as I mentioned.  The only part of the test that's up for consideration is the aural temperament.  There are other ways to test aural skills. 


> Not infrequently do I follow aural tunings that are inconsistent and
> unimpressive, especially in the extremes of the piano.

Likewise. Tuning aurally isn't a guarantee of anything at all. Another
argument I didn't make.

The point being that the ability to set an aural temperament is not a guarantee that the other aspects of producing a quality tuning will be in place. 

> Neither side
> has an undisputed claim to pride in their work, quality or a
> commitment to craftsmanship. ETD users simply employ a tool not
> unlike many of the other tools we use.

Before turning someone loose with a band saw, I'd like to be assured
they know what it is they're cutting out, and to recognize problems when
they happen. Another minority opinion apparently.

 Hopefully it is a minority opinion as it is a pathetic and poor analogy. 

David Love

On 6/15/2014 7:48 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Yes, my tunings certainly would, and that is what would give me
> greater personal satisfaction. In surmising that business would
> benefit, I image that my quality of client would improve, not
> necessarily the quality of my bank account.
>
> On tuning classes, I'm very much a tactile and observing sort of
> learner and make progress much faster through mimicry; literary
> learning can be quite a struggle.

I'm talking about putting in hours at a piano. The reading is
familiarization with theory and basic orientation. I'm a "get some on
you" type, and learn quickest by shedding blood, so to speak. My least
productive approach is instruction/training. I need to pound it in
directly. The quickest and best way for me to learn something is by
screwing it up and learning to fix it.


>At 35, I do realize that I'm in
> something of a minority in this, which is fine. Often what I read I
> find too abstruse to understand without a lot of follow-up q&a.
> Perhaps I lack much prerequisite knowledge. Anyway, I do see your
> point.

I'm 66, and everything I think seems to be a minority opinion and a
killing offense. It's rare that I find anyone that makes sense to me.


> At any rate, I'm not convinced that technological advancement should
> be the basis for the elimination of the temperament part of the aural
> test. If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results
> of one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to
> explain, scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does
> another effectively approve or dispute it in way that is
> comprehensible?

I agree. You won't find much in the way of logic in these discussions,
but there is an awful lot of defensiveness against shadows. Emperor's
new clothes stuff. It's loudly proclaimed in defense that an ETD is a
tool like any other, but when it's pointed out that aural skills are
also a valuable tool the room goes deaf. It's like those that look
around a room before responding to try to determine what their opinion
might be today. Though I've said many times, and meant it, that aural
tuners that have added ETDs to their process in ADDITION to their aural
skills quite likely have at least access to the best of both worlds,
those humming the bad JuJu dispelling mantra with their hands over their
ears don't seem to have heard it.

Whether you use it extensively or not, I'd love to see you do the
considerable work it takes to become comfortable with aural tuning. It
can only increase your understanding of what you're doing, and I'll be
forever mystified why so many are so vehemently against acquiring
education. If you ever find out, please let me know.
Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: PTG-L and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Recently, Fred Sturm brought to our attention on the PTG-L list that the Test Standards Committee has been directed by the Board to create a procedure to eliminate the Aural tuning requirement of the tuning exam with the exception of unisons.(Here is a link to that discussion) 

Here's a quote from page 27 of the current supplement: 14-010: Malinda Powell moved and Larry Messerly seconded to task the ETSC to begin developing a process to enable those testing to use an ETD for all sections of the tuning exam except unisons. This process should be completed and ready to implement in two years. 

I understand that Pianotech is not the place for political discussion, however this change could have a long range impact on our craft and I am curious to hear what others think about this question:

With the level of sophistication available through the latest software and ETDs, is tuning a temperament aurally still relevant? 
Should the PTG play a role in trying to preserve traditional aural tuning techniques? 

-------------------------------------------
Ryan Sowers
Olympia WA
360-705-4160
-------------------------------------------

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

You see? I got so caught up in the discussion that I forgot that your response was exactly what was in the initial post.

Thanks.

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

Also, I failed to see the link to the discussion. I'll read that now.

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:57
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

You see? I got so caught up in the discussion that I forgot that your response was exactly what was in the initial post.

Thanks.

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

Downgrading the standards of the organization in order to allow more people to join is not the answer. This brings to mind a famous quote by Homer Simpson: "If something is too hard to do, then it's not worth doing. You just stick that guitar in the closet next to your short-wave radio, your karate outfit and your unicycle and we'll go inside and watch TV."

My background is audio. I made a point of taking, and passing, the tuning exam aurally. It was not just a matter of pride, it was a confirmation that my listening skills were worth keeping. And while I can pull of an aural tuning today if I had to, I use an ETD almost exclusively. The technology being what it is, it's silly not to.

Technology is making many skills unnecessary. But it is not taking away the need to understand what you are doing. A calculator does no good if you don't understand the basics of math, for instance. If you don't at least know the principles of addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, you won't know how to use that calculator. I believe the same principle holds true for ETD tuning. You don't necessarily need to be able to pull in a decent temperament aurally, but you do need to understand the principles of doing so.

I am opposed to the idea of eliminating of the aural tuning test. But because of the advances in technology, perhaps it's time to rethink it and make it more applicable to today's technological world. 

Here's my 2¢:

I think the biggest obstacle to taking the tuning test aurally is the need to learn a temperament sequence, along with all the associated tests to prove that temperament octave correct. Once that temperament is laid down the rest, by comparison, is easy. But mastering that temperament aurally is not easy.

OK, so let prospective RPT's take the tuning exam with their EDT's, but add a new section that's after tuning and before unison's, (which must remain aural as far as I'm concerned), that demands that they demonstrate their knowledge of just what "in tune" is, and how to prove it using some of the standard interval testing methods. 

For example: Use the EDT to lay out the temperament and then extend it to the top and the bottom of the piano. That's something like the first three parts to the test, right? OK, so once the examinee has passed the tests to that point they leave the room. The examiner then takes something like eight or ten notes, at random and spread over several octaves so as not to screw with the actual overall tuning uniformity, and knocks them out of tune by something like three or four cents. The examinee is then invited back in and, without the use of an ETD, is told to A) find those now out of tune notes and, B) correct them. Aurally, using appropriate interval tests. They are now freed from having to learn how to lay down a temperament, but not freed from having to demonstrate that they know what they are listening to and how to take corrective action when they hear something wrong. 

That kind of added test is real world. If, after a tuning, the customer sits down and points out a note that is not correct, you can't realistically pull out your EDT to check and correct it. Not because it would be uncool to do so, but the tuning you just did to that piano was based on where it was when you started originally. Because of minute tension shifts throughout during the course of tuning, which are automatically taken into consideration when calculating a tuning on an ETD, the calculated tuning you used to tune the piano is no longer applicable. Every single note you go back and check with the EDT is going to have predictably drifted somewhat from that original calculated tuning, and you're not going to want to resample and retune the entire piano in order to correct just one note. NO, you have to do that aurally. With aural tests. 

Don't eliminate the aural requirements of the tuning test. Redesign them so that they work with today's tuning methods.

OK, that's closer to 3¢. Sorry.

-- Geoff
 

-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

What Geoff describes in paragraph 2 below is exactly right. It's real-world stuff. I had to do that for some folks who were doing a violin/cello/piano recording. Someone else did the first tuning, and then they called me in a couple days later to make it sound better after things had changed. In this scenario, you can't get out the ETD and correct anything or you'd be retuning the whole piano. I was able to identify the worst offending section and correct it. It was easy for a good aural tuner.

My contention is that those who use an ETD exclusively can't ever know for certain if they are right or not without confirmation from the machine. And then they never really do know because they never have put in the long, hard hours to really understand the whole picture of what makes a good tuning. Personally, I'd hate to remain in that state. Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning, I can say with both confidence and humility that I know what I'm talking about. I am an expert. I say this with humility, but I can say it because I know it.

So, all this talk about the ETD dependent user being a good tuner is relative. It's relative to the machine and also relative to his knowledge of how pianos react during a tuning. All tunings change slightly as we do them. We never get the piano perfect unless we spend several hours doing multiple tunings. Yes, an ETD tuning will sound acceptable for most pianos, and excellent for many pianos. But the ETD dependent tuner will never truly know for certain until he has put in the time learning it. This is not to say that the ETD tuner can't do a good job. It's more likely now than ever before that the ETD tuner can do a fine job. And he can satisfy most customers.

I want to do more than say, "Yeah, that sounds OK to me." That's what our customers say...without much knowledge. I want to know. And someone has to be able to stand up in the middle of a generation of ETD tuners and be able to explain why things are better or worse. Otherwise, we become the deaf leading the deaf. 

I've been in both camps, having begun tuning with a SAT II, then totally aural, and now I occasionally use RCT, but prefer tuning aurally. I know that RCT doesn't do as good a job in the bass of certain pianos as I do aurally. For example, Baldwin 243's and Acrosonics. (The same was true when I used a Verituner.)  And I've heard noticeable errors in the temperament area of small pianos. So bad that I put away the RCT and do it aurally. Also (and this has been said before), the ETD doesn't know when the room temperature rises during your tuning and your already tuned middle section has dropped a little. This makes the upper octaves quite noticeably sharp to an aural tuner. The ETD tuner needs to know how to compensate for this, but if he can't hear it, how can he compensate?

Lastly, kudos to Chuck Behm for being a great technician and businessman. Much better a businessman than I am.


-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2014 18:01
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



For example: Use the EDT to lay out the temperament and then extend it to the top and the bottom of the piano. That's something like the first three parts to the test, right? OK, so once the examinee has passed the tests to that point they leave the room. The examiner then takes something like eight or ten notes, at random and spread over several octaves so as not to screw with the actual overall tuning uniformity, and knocks them out of tune by something like three or four cents. The examinee is then invited back in and, without the use of an ETD, is told to A) find those now out of tune notes and, B) correct them. Aurally, using appropriate interval tests. They are now freed from having to learn how to lay down a temperament, but not freed from having to demonstrate that they know what they are listening to and how to take corrective action when they hear something wrong. 

That kind of added test is real world. If, after a tuning, the customer sits down and points out a note that is not correct, you can't realistically pull out your EDT to check and correct it. Not because it would be uncool to do so, but the tuning you just did to that piano was based on where it was when you started originally. Because of minute tension shifts throughout during the course of tuning, which are automatically taken into consideration when calculating a tuning on an ETD, the calculated tuning you used to tune the piano is no longer applicable. Every single note you go back and check with the EDT is going to have predictably drifted somewhat from that original calculated tuning, and you're not going to want to resample and retune the entire piano in order to correct just one note. NO, you have to do that aurally. With aural tests. 

Don't eliminate the aural requirements of the tuning test. Redesign them so that they work with today's tuning methods.

OK, that's closer to 3¢. Sorry.

-- Geoff
 

-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------

John (and all) - First of all, thanks everyone for the willingness to have a discussion about this topic without allowing it to become mired in the mud of name-calling that it so often has devolved to in the past (as you correctly noted, Ron). There have been lots of constructive suggestions made from people on both sides of the fence, and with the exception of my own "shove it" comment (which I feel badly about) everyone has remained very civil.

One thing about your comments, John, which I would like to take exception to is this: "My contention is that those who use an ETD exclusively can't ever know for certain if they are right or not without confirmation from the machine." You're suggesting that the only way to ascertain whether a piano is in tune is by counting beats, when really the proof is in the beauty of the music produced. I play the piano - I'm not a concert pianist by any means, but I always try every piano I tune out before I pack my tools. By playing a slow tune, and pausing to listen to the chords, any little misstep in the temperament stands out clearly. If a string has slipped or isn't quite right, it is corrected before I leave the premises. Just because my hearing isn't acute enough to hear beats between partials, doesn't mean I'm deaf - I know when my chords sound right, and when they don't. I would think that an aural tuner would perform a final check of his tuning in the same way - not by going back to simply count beats, but by actually listening to the music. 

One thing that might be of interest is that in 40 years of tuning, after over 20,000 tunings, my tuning has not been called into question once by a customer. Sure, I've had pianos where a pin has slipped after the piano has been tuned, and I need to return to pull it back up, but never have I had a call where a customer has inferred that there is a problem with the tuning I performed. Granted, I'm tuning for more your average person, and not for high-end concert artist (whom I sure are hard to please) but for the clientele I serve, my tuning with an ETD has been perfectly satisfactory. Plus, I personally love playing the pianos I tune. It is so satisfying.

Another interesting fact is that in all these tunings, only once has a customer remarked on the fact that I was using a machine to set the temperament. He seemed upset at first, until in conversation I learned that he had a bad experience in the past with a "tuner" using a $20 Korg guitar tuner. I explained the difference in the technology involved between that machine and mine, and he's been a customer of mine ever since.

Again, thanks to all for the thoughtful dialogue. It's so nice to have everyone discuss this topic and acting like grown ups!

Well, I'm off to tune 6 pianos today. I'll check back in this evening to see if anything has been added to the discussion. Best wishes, all!  Chuck Behm




Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2014 07:57
From: John Formsma
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

What Geoff describes in paragraph 2 below is exactly right. It's real-world stuff. I had to do that for some folks who were doing a violin/cello/piano recording. Someone else did the first tuning, and then they called me in a couple days later to make it sound better after things had changed. In this scenario, you can't get out the ETD and correct anything or you'd be retuning the whole piano. I was able to identify the worst offending section and correct it. It was easy for a good aural tuner.

My contention is that those who use an ETD exclusively can't ever know for certain if they are right or not without confirmation from the machine. And then they never really do know because they never have put in the long, hard hours to really understand the whole picture of what makes a good tuning. Personally, I'd hate to remain in that state. Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning, I can say with both confidence and humility that I know what I'm talking about. I am an expert. I say this with humility, but I can say it because I know it.

So, all this talk about the ETD dependent user being a good tuner is relative. It's relative to the machine and also relative to his knowledge of how pianos react during a tuning. All tunings change slightly as we do them. We never get the piano perfect unless we spend several hours doing multiple tunings. Yes, an ETD tuning will sound acceptable for most pianos, and excellent for many pianos. But the ETD dependent tuner will never truly know for certain until he has put in the time learning it. This is not to say that the ETD tuner can't do a good job. It's more likely now than ever before that the ETD tuner can do a fine job. And he can satisfy most customers.

I want to do more than say, "Yeah, that sounds OK to me." That's what our customers say...without much knowledge. I want to know. And someone has to be able to stand up in the middle of a generation of ETD tuners and be able to explain why things are better or worse. Otherwise, we become the deaf leading the deaf. 

I've been in both camps, having begun tuning with a SAT II, then totally aural, and now I occasionally use RCT, but prefer tuning aurally. I know that RCT doesn't do as good a job in the bass of certain pianos as I do aurally. For example, Baldwin 243's and Acrosonics. (The same was true when I used a Verituner.)  And I've heard noticeable errors in the temperament area of small pianos. So bad that I put away the RCT and do it aurally. Also (and this has been said before), the ETD doesn't know when the room temperature rises during your tuning and your already tuned middle section has dropped a little. This makes the upper octaves quite noticeably sharp to an aural tuner. The ETD tuner needs to know how to compensate for this, but if he can't hear it, how can he compensate?

Lastly, kudos to Chuck Behm for being a great technician and businessman. Much better a businessman than I am.


-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2014 18:01
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



For example: Use the EDT to lay out the temperament and then extend it to the top and the bottom of the piano. That's something like the first three parts to the test, right? OK, so once the examinee has passed the tests to that point they leave the room. The examiner then takes something like eight or ten notes, at random and spread over several octaves so as not to screw with the actual overall tuning uniformity, and knocks them out of tune by something like three or four cents. The examinee is then invited back in and, without the use of an ETD, is told to A) find those now out of tune notes and, B) correct them. Aurally, using appropriate interval tests. They are now freed from having to learn how to lay down a temperament, but not freed from having to demonstrate that they know what they are listening to and how to take corrective action when they hear something wrong. 

That kind of added test is real world. If, after a tuning, the customer sits down and points out a note that is not correct, you can't realistically pull out your EDT to check and correct it. Not because it would be uncool to do so, but the tuning you just did to that piano was based on where it was when you started originally. Because of minute tension shifts throughout during the course of tuning, which are automatically taken into consideration when calculating a tuning on an ETD, the calculated tuning you used to tune the piano is no longer applicable. Every single note you go back and check with the EDT is going to have predictably drifted somewhat from that original calculated tuning, and you're not going to want to resample and retune the entire piano in order to correct just one note. NO, you have to do that aurally. With aural tests. 

Don't eliminate the aural requirements of the tuning test. Redesign them so that they work with today's tuning methods.

OK, that's closer to 3¢. Sorry.

-- Geoff
 

-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

Chuck Behm <Another interesting fact is that in all these tunings, only once has a customer remarked on the fact that I was using a machine to set the temperament.

Yes...the attitude clients on the whole will adopt is dependent on the attitude one personally brings to the client interaction. In a social interaction where clients are hiring someone with expertise they lack, people tend to be somewhat camelion-like. They tend to adopt the point of view of the tech, as long as the tech has gained their trust. So when I hear reports of, as an example, a client wanting ETD or aural skills only, client's attitudes reflects, as Chuck has attested to, the attitude of the trusted expert.

Behm<  Just because my hearing isn't acute enough to hear beats between partials, doesn't mean I'm deaf - I know when my chords sound right, and when they don't. I would think that an aural tuner would perform a final check of his tuning in the same way - not by going back to simply count beats, but by actually listening to the music. 

Totally agree. Though I'm a hybrid tuner, tuning with the ETD to get where my ear wants to get quicker, with less guessing and farting around, Chuck's reading of the point of the exercise goes to the heart of what I find missing in this excellent and civil discussion. 

What constitutes verification of the competence of a particular tuning?

Partial dissection is a tool.  An ETD is a tool. The point of the tools is to create a piano that is fun to play...one that lines up consonances well, in a musically perceptible way, within the limits of what is physically attainable in a piano.  The point of the exercise is musical, and should be verified musically after a tuning. Playing though the entire compass will show whether you are about to give this client a competent tuning or not, and will expose problems to be corrected.

If a tuner does not have the pianistic skills to do this, then, given the restrictive definition of what currently constitutes a competent tuner/tuning, it could easily be suggested that a tuner who doesn't have the pianistic skills to prove musically a tuning is adequate cannot be a competent tuner. This is obviously not true...however, choosing to label one path to competence as acceptable over other paths could easily lead one to make unhelpfully exclusive definitions of competence.

The bottom line is, where is the musicality in all of this discussion of competence?

Jim Ialeggio
-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Chuck,

Appreciate the kind remarks.

My point is that our perception or even the customer's perception of a tuning isn't fully adequate. Back when I first began tuning with a SAT II, I could also say, "It sounds good enough to me." Which it did...at that time. And I had only one complaint from a customer. Once I began learning to tune aurally, it opened up a wide world of new sounds. And also showed me how crappy my early work was. 

I've done quite a few tunings with RCT and before with Verituner. There are pianos that can sound better tuning aurally. How do I know they sound better aurally? By testing and listening. When the machine lights stop and there is 2+ bps beating in some bass double octaves, we have a problem. Or at least I have a problem. The octaves are starting to get too wide for that piano. Sure, they might be 6:3 octaves, but the piano needs 4:2 there. How is the ETD tuner going to know that unless he starts delving into the theory behind piano tuning?

An ETD tuner can easily be tied to his machine. I've been there, so I know of which I speak. "It sounds good to me" is fine only as long as the tuner knows what to listen for. 

This ability isn't superhuman, but it comes about by diligent practice, begun with extremely concentrated focus and study. Yes, it's hard, but it's worth it.

(And I know you have expressed why you cannot tune aurally. I understand that.)

-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2014 08:46
From: Charles Behm
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------

John (and all) - First of all, thanks everyone for the willingness to have a discussion about this topic without allowing it to become mired in the mud of name-calling that it so often has devolved to in the past (as you correctly noted, Ron). There have been lots of constructive suggestions made from people on both sides of the fence, and with the exception of my own "shove it" comment (which I feel badly about) everyone has remained very civil.

One thing about your comments, John, which I would like to take exception to is this: "My contention is that those who use an ETD exclusively can't ever know for certain if they are right or not without confirmation from the machine." You're suggesting that the only way to ascertain whether a piano is in tune is by counting beats, when really the proof is in the beauty of the music produced. I play the piano - I'm not a concert pianist by any means, but I always try every piano I tune out before I pack my tools. By playing a slow tune, and pausing to listen to the chords, any little misstep in the temperament stands out clearly. If a string has slipped or isn't quite right, it is corrected before I leave the premises. Just because my hearing isn't acute enough to hear beats between partials, doesn't mean I'm deaf - I know when my chords sound right, and when they don't. I would think that an aural tuner would perform a final check of his tuning in the same way - not by going back to simply count beats, but by actually listening to the music. 

One thing that might be of interest is that in 40 years of tuning, after over 20,000 tunings, my tuning has not been called into question once by a customer. Sure, I've had pianos where a pin has slipped after the piano has been tuned, and I need to return to pull it back up, but never have I had a call where a customer has inferred that there is a problem with the tuning I performed. Granted, I'm tuning for more your average person, and not for high-end concert artist (whom I sure are hard to please) but for the clientele I serve, my tuning with an ETD has been perfectly satisfactory. Plus, I personally love playing the pianos I tune. It is so satisfying.

Another interesting fact is that in all these tunings, only once has a customer remarked on the fact that I was using a machine to set the temperament. He seemed upset at first, until in conversation I learned that he had a bad experience in the past with a "tuner" using a $20 Korg guitar tuner. I explained the difference in the technology involved between that machine and mine, and he's been a customer of mine ever since.

Again, thanks to all for the thoughtful dialogue. It's so nice to have everyone discuss this topic and acting like grown ups!

Well, I'm off to tune 6 pianos today. I'll check back in this evening to see if anything has been added to the discussion. Best wishes, all!  Chuck Behm

John said
 "Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning,"

With all due respect, John, but this is, in my opinion, the worst reason why we have to continue testing aural skills. "Because I had, everyone else to, too", is self serving.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2014 07:57
From: John Formsma
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

What Geoff describes in paragraph 2 below is exactly right. It's real-world stuff. I had to do that for some folks who were doing a violin/cello/piano recording. Someone else did the first tuning, and then they called me in a couple days later to make it sound better after things had changed. In this scenario, you can't get out the ETD and correct anything or you'd be retuning the whole piano. I was able to identify the worst offending section and correct it. It was easy for a good aural tuner.

My contention is that those who use an ETD exclusively can't ever know for certain if they are right or not without confirmation from the machine. And then they never really do know because they never have put in the long, hard hours to really understand the whole picture of what makes a good tuning. Personally, I'd hate to remain in that state. Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning, I can say with both confidence and humility that I know what I'm talking about. I am an expert. I say this with humility, but I can say it because I know it.

So, all this talk about the ETD dependent user being a good tuner is relative. It's relative to the machine and also relative to his knowledge of how pianos react during a tuning. All tunings change slightly as we do them. We never get the piano perfect unless we spend several hours doing multiple tunings. Yes, an ETD tuning will sound acceptable for most pianos, and excellent for many pianos. But the ETD dependent tuner will never truly know for certain until he has put in the time learning it. This is not to say that the ETD tuner can't do a good job. It's more likely now than ever before that the ETD tuner can do a fine job. And he can satisfy most customers.

I want to do more than say, "Yeah, that sounds OK to me." That's what our customers say...without much knowledge. I want to know. And someone has to be able to stand up in the middle of a generation of ETD tuners and be able to explain why things are better or worse. Otherwise, we become the deaf leading the deaf. 

I've been in both camps, having begun tuning with a SAT II, then totally aural, and now I occasionally use RCT, but prefer tuning aurally. I know that RCT doesn't do as good a job in the bass of certain pianos as I do aurally. For example, Baldwin 243's and Acrosonics. (The same was true when I used a Verituner.)  And I've heard noticeable errors in the temperament area of small pianos. So bad that I put away the RCT and do it aurally. Also (and this has been said before), the ETD doesn't know when the room temperature rises during your tuning and your already tuned middle section has dropped a little. This makes the upper octaves quite noticeably sharp to an aural tuner. The ETD tuner needs to know how to compensate for this, but if he can't hear it, how can he compensate?

Lastly, kudos to Chuck Behm for being a great technician and businessman. Much better a businessman than I am.


-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2014 18:01
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



For example: Use the EDT to lay out the temperament and then extend it to the top and the bottom of the piano. That's something like the first three parts to the test, right? OK, so once the examinee has passed the tests to that point they leave the room. The examiner then takes something like eight or ten notes, at random and spread over several octaves so as not to screw with the actual overall tuning uniformity, and knocks them out of tune by something like three or four cents. The examinee is then invited back in and, without the use of an ETD, is told to A) find those now out of tune notes and, B) correct them. Aurally, using appropriate interval tests. They are now freed from having to learn how to lay down a temperament, but not freed from having to demonstrate that they know what they are listening to and how to take corrective action when they hear something wrong. 

That kind of added test is real world. If, after a tuning, the customer sits down and points out a note that is not correct, you can't realistically pull out your EDT to check and correct it. Not because it would be uncool to do so, but the tuning you just did to that piano was based on where it was when you started originally. Because of minute tension shifts throughout during the course of tuning, which are automatically taken into consideration when calculating a tuning on an ETD, the calculated tuning you used to tune the piano is no longer applicable. Every single note you go back and check with the EDT is going to have predictably drifted somewhat from that original calculated tuning, and you're not going to want to resample and retune the entire piano in order to correct just one note. NO, you have to do that aurally. With aural tests. 

Don't eliminate the aural requirements of the tuning test. Redesign them so that they work with today's tuning methods.

OK, that's closer to 3¢. Sorry.

-- Geoff
 

-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

Wim,

Would you mind re-reading my entire post and showing me where any idea is of "Because I had, everyone else to, too (sic)"?

We were talking about whether aural temperament is worth preserving.  At least I was.

-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2014 14:02
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

John said
 "Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning,"

With all due respect, John, but this is, in my opinion, the worst reason why we have to continue testing aural skills. "Because I had, everyone else to, too", is self serving.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2014 07:57
From: John Formsma
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

What Geoff describes in paragraph 2 below is exactly right. It's real-world stuff. I had to do that for some folks who were doing a violin/cello/piano recording. Someone else did the first tuning, and then they called me in a couple days later to make it sound better after things had changed. In this scenario, you can't get out the ETD and correct anything or you'd be retuning the whole piano. I was able to identify the worst offending section and correct it. It was easy for a good aural tuner.

My contention is that those who use an ETD exclusively can't ever know for certain if they are right or not without confirmation from the machine. And then they never really do know because they never have put in the long, hard hours to really understand the whole picture of what makes a good tuning. Personally, I'd hate to remain in that state. Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning, I can say with both confidence and humility that I know what I'm talking about. I am an expert. I say this with humility, but I can say it because I know it.

So, all this talk about the ETD dependent user being a good tuner is relative. It's relative to the machine and also relative to his knowledge of how pianos react during a tuning. All tunings change slightly as we do them. We never get the piano perfect unless we spend several hours doing multiple tunings. Yes, an ETD tuning will sound acceptable for most pianos, and excellent for many pianos. But the ETD dependent tuner will never truly know for certain until he has put in the time learning it. This is not to say that the ETD tuner can't do a good job. It's more likely now than ever before that the ETD tuner can do a fine job. And he can satisfy most customers.

I want to do more than say, "Yeah, that sounds OK to me." That's what our customers say...without much knowledge. I want to know. And someone has to be able to stand up in the middle of a generation of ETD tuners and be able to explain why things are better or worse. Otherwise, we become the deaf leading the deaf. 

I've been in both camps, having begun tuning with a SAT II, then totally aural, and now I occasionally use RCT, but prefer tuning aurally. I know that RCT doesn't do as good a job in the bass of certain pianos as I do aurally. For example, Baldwin 243's and Acrosonics. (The same was true when I used a Verituner.)  And I've heard noticeable errors in the temperament area of small pianos. So bad that I put away the RCT and do it aurally. Also (and this has been said before), the ETD doesn't know when the room temperature rises during your tuning and your already tuned middle section has dropped a little. This makes the upper octaves quite noticeably sharp to an aural tuner. The ETD tuner needs to know how to compensate for this, but if he can't hear it, how can he compensate?

Lastly, kudos to Chuck Behm for being a great technician and businessman. Much better a businessman than I am.


-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2014 18:01
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



For example: Use the EDT to lay out the temperament and then extend it to the top and the bottom of the piano. That's something like the first three parts to the test, right? OK, so once the examinee has passed the tests to that point they leave the room. The examiner then takes something like eight or ten notes, at random and spread over several octaves so as not to screw with the actual overall tuning uniformity, and knocks them out of tune by something like three or four cents. The examinee is then invited back in and, without the use of an ETD, is told to A) find those now out of tune notes and, B) correct them. Aurally, using appropriate interval tests. They are now freed from having to learn how to lay down a temperament, but not freed from having to demonstrate that they know what they are listening to and how to take corrective action when they hear something wrong. 

That kind of added test is real world. If, after a tuning, the customer sits down and points out a note that is not correct, you can't realistically pull out your EDT to check and correct it. Not because it would be uncool to do so, but the tuning you just did to that piano was based on where it was when you started originally. Because of minute tension shifts throughout during the course of tuning, which are automatically taken into consideration when calculating a tuning on an ETD, the calculated tuning you used to tune the piano is no longer applicable. Every single note you go back and check with the EDT is going to have predictably drifted somewhat from that original calculated tuning, and you're not going to want to resample and retune the entire piano in order to correct just one note. NO, you have to do that aurally. With aural tests. 

Don't eliminate the aural requirements of the tuning test. Redesign them so that they work with today's tuning methods.

OK, that's closer to 3¢. Sorry.

-- Geoff
 

-------------------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

-------------------------------------------
Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N

-------------------------------------------
Charles Behm
Behm Piano
Boone IA
515-432-1190
-------------------------------------------

John, Wim and all - I believe that this thread is going in a couple of directions (not unusual for a topic to go off on tangents). One question is whether the aural component tuning should remain as part of the testing for becoming an RPT. I say absolutely. To change the requirements midstream would be unfair to the men and women who trained hard to meet the requirements. Let well enough alone. The other question which has been brought up by myself and others is whether there could be an avenue for a person such as myself (not disabled, but with a diminished ability) can take test to become registered as a bonafide tuner / technician using electronics as an aid. I'm suggesting a different designation (RPT-E) but it could be anything, as long as everyone understands the distinction. It doesn't seem as if that would need to be so complicated. If any of you don't believe that I have what it takes to be a registered member of the Guild, come visit my shop. Follow me along on my tuning rounds and chat with my customers or read their comments on my Facebook page at Behm Piano Service. There are plenty of others like myself. Good, qualified technicians who happen to rely upon an ETD to set their temperaments and who don't have the acuity of hearing to do otherwise.

My hope for the Guild is that it remains strong far into the future, and that every member finds fulfillment in his career as a piano tuner / technician. Maybe one of you can explain to me how my suggestion to make the PTG a bit more broadminded in the recognition of of qualified technicians would weaken it in any way. (I'm sure there will be those who are ready to show me the errors of my way - there always are.) 

Anyway, I'm off to work. Fortunately, not being recognized by the PTG as a legitimate technician has not kept the customers away. Well, I'll shut up now and let better minds prevail.  Chuck







Original Message:
Sent: 06-18-2014 07:39
From: John Formsma
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Wim,

Would you mind re-reading my entire post and showing me where any idea is of "Because I had, everyone else to, too (sic)"?

We were talking about whether aural temperament is worth preserving.  At least I was.

-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2014 14:02
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

John said
 "Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning,"

With all due respect, John, but this is, in my opinion, the worst reason why we have to continue testing aural skills. "Because I had, everyone else to, too", is self serving.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2014 07:57
From: John Formsma
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

What Geoff describes in paragraph 2 below is exactly right. It's real-world stuff. I had to do that for some folks who were doing a violin/cello/piano recording. Someone else did the first tuning, and then they called me in a couple days later to make it sound better after things had changed. In this scenario, you can't get out the ETD and correct anything or you'd be retuning the whole piano. I was able to identify the worst offending section and correct it. It was easy for a good aural tuner.

My contention is that those who use an ETD exclusively can't ever know for certain if they are right or not without confirmation from the machine. And then they never really do know because they never have put in the long, hard hours to really understand the whole picture of what makes a good tuning. Personally, I'd hate to remain in that state. Because I am one who has put in the necessary time to understand what makes a good tuning, I can say with both confidence and humility that I know what I'm talking about. I am an expert. I say this with humility, but I can say it because I know it.

So, all this talk about the ETD dependent user being a good tuner is relative. It's relative to the machine and also relative to his knowledge of how pianos react during a tuning. All tunings change slightly as we do them. We never get the piano perfect unless we spend several hours doing multiple tunings. Yes, an ETD tuning will sound acceptable for most pianos, and excellent for many pianos. But the ETD dependent tuner will never truly know for certain until he has put in the time learning it. This is not to say that the ETD tuner can't do a good job. It's more likely now than ever before that the ETD tuner can do a fine job. And he can satisfy most customers.

I want to do more than say, "Yeah, that sounds OK to me." That's what our customers say...without much knowledge. I want to know. And someone has to be able to stand up in the middle of a generation of ETD tuners and be able to explain why things are better or worse. Otherwise, we become the deaf leading the deaf. 

I've been in both camps, having begun tuning with a SAT II, then totally aural, and now I occasionally use RCT, but prefer tuning aurally. I know that RCT doesn't do as good a job in the bass of certain pianos as I do aurally. For example, Baldwin 243's and Acrosonics. (The same was true when I used a Verituner.)  And I've heard noticeable errors in the temperament area of small pianos. So bad that I put away the RCT and do it aurally. Also (and this has been said before), the ETD doesn't know when the room temperature rises during your tuning and your already tuned middle section has dropped a little. This makes the upper octaves quite noticeably sharp to an aural tuner. The ETD tuner needs to know how to compensate for this, but if he can't hear it, how can he compensate?

Lastly, kudos to Chuck Behm for being a great technician and businessman. Much better a businessman than I am.


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John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2014 18:01
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?



For example: Use the EDT to lay out the temperament and then extend it to the top and the bottom of the piano. That's something like the first three parts to the test, right? OK, so once the examinee has passed the tests to that point they leave the room. The examiner then takes something like eight or ten notes, at random and spread over several octaves so as not to screw with the actual overall tuning uniformity, and knocks them out of tune by something like three or four cents. The examinee is then invited back in and, without the use of an ETD, is told to A) find those now out of tune notes and, B) correct them. Aurally, using appropriate interval tests. They are now freed from having to learn how to lay down a temperament, but not freed from having to demonstrate that they know what they are listening to and how to take corrective action when they hear something wrong. 

That kind of added test is real world. If, after a tuning, the customer sits down and points out a note that is not correct, you can't realistically pull out your EDT to check and correct it. Not because it would be uncool to do so, but the tuning you just did to that piano was based on where it was when you started originally. Because of minute tension shifts throughout during the course of tuning, which are automatically taken into consideration when calculating a tuning on an ETD, the calculated tuning you used to tune the piano is no longer applicable. Every single note you go back and check with the EDT is going to have predictably drifted somewhat from that original calculated tuning, and you're not going to want to resample and retune the entire piano in order to correct just one note. NO, you have to do that aurally. With aural tests. 

Don't eliminate the aural requirements of the tuning test. Redesign them so that they work with today's tuning methods.

OK, that's closer to 3¢. Sorry.

-- Geoff
 

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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:45
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

Ruben

The conversation came about because at the Mid Winter PTG Board meeting, a motion was made, and passed, to investigate the possibility of eliminating the aural portion of the tuning exam. The Board allowed two years for a study.

The reason they passed this motion is due in part because membership is down, but more important, because not enough Associate are upgrading to RPT. It is believed that the prime reason they are not upgrading, is because of the Part 1 of the tuning exam, which requires a candidate to tune the middle two octaves aurally.  

As far as the relevance of being able to tune aurally, well, as you can see, there are lots of opinions on that.

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Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 23:29
From: Ruben Jackson
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

I am very curious why this question has been asked. I have read some discussion of late about it. But - what is the actual problem, if any, at hand that is hoped to be solved by eliminating this portion of the test? Or perhaps the question is - what is hoped to be gained or improved upon by doing the same?

The possibilities that immediately come to mind are:

1) Membership is suffering
2) Not enough associates are taking and / or passing the exams
3) Both, and the organization is perhaps concerned that its relevance is decreasing

Is there qualitative and quantitative data that supports any of this?

Again: What has taken place that has caused the relevance of the aural temperament portion of the RPT tests to be called into question?

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Ruben Jackson
Jackson Piano
rubenjackon@gmail.com

www.JacksonPianoService.com
(510) 859-8863
Berkeley, CA
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-15-2014 22:09
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Is aural temperament worth preserving?

On 6/15/2014 9:01 PM, Ruben Jackson via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> If one can't verify / demonstrate the accuracy of the results of
> one's work by employing a working knowledge and ability to explain,
> scientifically, the accuracy of said work, then how does another
> effectively approve or dispute it in way that is comprehensible?
>
> To be clear, I take no issue with the implementation of ETDs. Mine
> has been an invaluable learning tool above all else. I simply don't
> believe that it is in the best interest of the field of piano
> technology or the organization to grant RPT status to those who are
> not erudite in the field. I believe it would be a major downgrade
> overall to the organization.

Yes, I understand and fully agree.

>
> There will likely always be those who are comfortable not advancing
> beyond the need to use an ETD, and I make no criticisms about that,
> but I do see a conflict of interest if the PTG is to eliminate from
> the RPT test the aural temperament portion while claiming to
> represent an upper echelon of piano technology and the advancement of
> it.

As do I.
Ron N