Oh God. Well at least the rebuild is cheap. Then again he may want to have it done over.

ohmygodawa hammers are a terrible choice (way too hard) and i'm not a fan of tokiwa parts either, except their bachecks are ok.

Use Renner or Steinway Shanks and wippens (I prefer Renner). Ronsen hammers, your choice of felt: Wickert, Wurzen or Bacon. Steinway hammers are ok too but will require some weight reduction and lacquer, not my preference. If you use Ronsen get them as light as possible and then make them lighter still. Hammer #40 under 8 grams, they'll sound better on that piano. You may need some lacquer on the Bacon Felt but if the hammers are profiled correctly (felt thickness) you won't need much if any.  

Make sure they change key frame felt, balance and front rail punchings, let-off buttons, key bushings, key end felt, back-checks, if key leads are oxidizing change them too. Polish key tops, scrape the schmutz off the  sides of the natural keys, blacken the keys under the sharps where the stain has worn off, and clean and polish the sharps. Clean and polish the action frame. Add new felt or better thin sandpaper with double stck tape on the hammer flange rail. Modify the action leverage to accomodate the new hammers as necessary, rebalance the action, complete regulation from scratch and include tuning and voicing. A precision balancing is nice and will require smooth weighting. Since you've changed the key end felt expect to regulate the damper timing. 

When you make an agreement with your sub be sure you itemize everything. 

Good luck.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

To what David was mentioning about the hammer rail, instead of sand paper; use fine emory cloth and a washer form better clamping power.

Also Reinforce the rails by coupling, installing a screw from under the L/O rail, blunt the end of the screw so as not to pierce the top rail.



------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 01:53
From: David Love
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Oh God. Well at least the rebuild is cheap. Then again he may want to have it done over.

ohmygodawa hammers are a terrible choice (way too hard) and i'm not a fan of tokiwa parts either, except their bachecks are ok.

Use Renner or Steinway Shanks and wippens (I prefer Renner). Ronsen hammers, your choice of felt: Wickert, Wurzen or Bacon. Steinway hammers are ok too but will require some weight reduction and lacquer, not my preference. If you use Ronsen get them as light as possible and then make them lighter still. Hammer #40 under 8 grams, they'll sound better on that piano. You may need some lacquer on the Bacon Felt but if the hammers are profiled correctly (felt thickness) you won't need much if any.

Make sure they change key frame felt, balance and front rail punchings, let-off buttons, key bushings, key end felt, back-checks, if key leads are oxidizing change them too. Polish key tops, scrape the schmutz off the  sides of the natural keys, blacken the keys under the sharps where the stain has worn off, and clean and polish the sharps. Clean and polish the action frame. Add new felt or better thin sandpaper with double stck tape on the hammer flange rail. Modify the action leverage to accomodate the new hammers as necessary, rebalance the action, complete regulation from scratch and include tuning and voicing. A precision balancing is nice and will require smooth weighting. Since you've changed the key end felt expect to regulate the damper timing.

When you make an agreement with your sub be sure you itemize everything.

Good luck.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

David wrote:
"...scrape the schmutz off the  sides of the natural keys…"

I used to do that, until someone schooled me that the dirt on the sides of natural keysticks can be removed with ammonia. We used ammonia with great success until someone else further schooled me that the same result can be achieved with isopropyl alcohol (the stronger the better). The isopropyl is far easier on the nose than the ammonia. 

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 01:53
From: David Love
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Oh God. Well at least the rebuild is cheap. Then again he may want to have it done over.

ohmygodawa hammers are a terrible choice (way too hard) and i'm not a fan of tokiwa parts either, except their bachecks are ok.

Use Renner or Steinway Shanks and wippens (I prefer Renner). Ronsen hammers, your choice of felt: Wickert, Wurzen or Bacon. Steinway hammers are ok too but will require some weight reduction and lacquer, not my preference. If you use Ronsen get them as light as possible and then make them lighter still. Hammer #40 under 8 grams, they'll sound better on that piano. You may need some lacquer on the Bacon Felt but if the hammers are profiled correctly (felt thickness) you won't need much if any.

Make sure they change key frame felt, balance and front rail punchings, let-off buttons, key bushings, key end felt, back-checks, if key leads are oxidizing change them too. Polish key tops, scrape the schmutz off the  sides of the natural keys, blacken the keys under the sharps where the stain has worn off, and clean and polish the sharps. Clean and polish the action frame. Add new felt or better thin sandpaper with double stck tape on the hammer flange rail. Modify the action leverage to accomodate the new hammers as necessary, rebalance the action, complete regulation from scratch and include tuning and voicing. A precision balancing is nice and will require smooth weighting. Since you've changed the key end felt expect to regulate the damper timing.

When you make an agreement with your sub be sure you itemize everything.

Good luck.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

I have parts kits from a few of the manufacturers, and some extra hammers i've saved from previous jobs - I like to try a few hammers on to see how they sound before I decide what to order.  I've put Steinway, Renner, Abel natural felt, and Ari Issac's hammers on Steinways.  Ari's hammers made a huge difference in the sound of the piano I used them on - an old model B.  He sent them prehung on Abel shanks from my samples, and they were perfect.

I've enjoyed hearing everybody's thoughts on the topic.
Best regards,
Linda Scott

------------------------------
Linda Scott, RPT
Portland, OR
503-231-9732
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 01:53
From: David Love
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Oh God. Well at least the rebuild is cheap. Then again he may want to have it done over.

ohmygodawa hammers are a terrible choice (way too hard) and i'm not a fan of tokiwa parts either, except their bachecks are ok.

Use Renner or Steinway Shanks and wippens (I prefer Renner). Ronsen hammers, your choice of felt: Wickert, Wurzen or Bacon. Steinway hammers are ok too but will require some weight reduction and lacquer, not my preference. If you use Ronsen get them as light as possible and then make them lighter still. Hammer #40 under 8 grams, they'll sound better on that piano. You may need some lacquer on the Bacon Felt but if the hammers are profiled correctly (felt thickness) you won't need much if any.

Make sure they change key frame felt, balance and front rail punchings, let-off buttons, key bushings, key end felt, back-checks, if key leads are oxidizing change them too. Polish key tops, scrape the schmutz off the  sides of the natural keys, blacken the keys under the sharps where the stain has worn off, and clean and polish the sharps. Clean and polish the action frame. Add new felt or better thin sandpaper with double stck tape on the hammer flange rail. Modify the action leverage to accomodate the new hammers as necessary, rebalance the action, complete regulation from scratch and include tuning and voicing. A precision balancing is nice and will require smooth weighting. Since you've changed the key end felt expect to regulate the damper timing.

When you make an agreement with your sub be sure you itemize everything.

Good luck.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Having a variety of hammers to sample is a very good idea. I carry these with me all the time. It's also an excellent way to demonstrate for a customer how much of a difference new hammers can make. I've narrowed my choices somewhat these days but I believe most pianos have a best choice.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-22-2017 01:57
From: Linda Scott
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

I have parts kits from a few of the manufacturers, and some extra hammers i've saved from previous jobs - I like to try a few hammers on to see how they sound before I decide what to order.  I've put Steinway, Renner, Abel natural felt, and Ari Issac's hammers on Steinways.  Ari's hammers made a huge difference in the sound of the piano I used them on - an old model B.  He sent them prehung on Abel shanks from my samples, and they were perfect.

I've enjoyed hearing everybody's thoughts on the topic.
Best regards,
Linda Scott

------------------------------
Linda Scott, RPT
Portland, OR
503-231-9732

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 01:53
From: David Love
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Oh God. Well at least the rebuild is cheap. Then again he may want to have it done over.

ohmygodawa hammers are a terrible choice (way too hard) and i'm not a fan of tokiwa parts either, except their bachecks are ok.

Use Renner or Steinway Shanks and wippens (I prefer Renner). Ronsen hammers, your choice of felt: Wickert, Wurzen or Bacon. Steinway hammers are ok too but will require some weight reduction and lacquer, not my preference. If you use Ronsen get them as light as possible and then make them lighter still. Hammer #40 under 8 grams, they'll sound better on that piano. You may need some lacquer on the Bacon Felt but if the hammers are profiled correctly (felt thickness) you won't need much if any.

Make sure they change key frame felt, balance and front rail punchings, let-off buttons, key bushings, key end felt, back-checks, if key leads are oxidizing change them too. Polish key tops, scrape the schmutz off the  sides of the natural keys, blacken the keys under the sharps where the stain has worn off, and clean and polish the sharps. Clean and polish the action frame. Add new felt or better thin sandpaper with double stck tape on the hammer flange rail. Modify the action leverage to accomodate the new hammers as necessary, rebalance the action, complete regulation from scratch and include tuning and voicing. A precision balancing is nice and will require smooth weighting. Since you've changed the key end felt expect to regulate the damper timing.

When you make an agreement with your sub be sure you itemize everything.

Good luck.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

The rebuilder is basically selling the parts for wholesale, and he's not even buying good quality parts. With what David said, I would look around for another rebuilder. It might be worth it to you to take the action to David. Ask him what he would charge for a job like that, including everything he is recommending. You will need to do in piano final regulating, but maybe David is willing to give you advice on that. (I hope you're OK with that, David).

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

The parts list at $2,400 keeps changing. I'm done with this discussion. Sorry for editing to account for the rapidly changing prices on parts, I don't do that mich action work. 
------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 04:21
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

The rebuilder is basically selling the parts for wholesale, and he's not even buying good quality parts. With what David said, I would look around for another rebuilder. It might be worth it to you to take the action to David. Ask him what he would charge for a job like that, including everything he is recommending. You will need to do in piano final regulating, but maybe David is willing to give you advice on that. (I hope you're OK with that, David).

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa shanks and flanges, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Benjamin said:  What do you mean, "Selling the parts wholesale?" Are you considering just the parts mentioned, -restring, -damper work? How carefully did you read this Dave? Hammers, shanks and flanges? That's it? For $2,400?

Is this a Hawaiian thing, I wouldn't understand?

Benjamin.   He's replacing h/s/f and wippens, plus other parts. Even those off brand parts are going to cost close to that.

In Hawaii I do need to add at least $25 - $50 for shipping. A box of keys sent to the mainland for recovering is $85. 


------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 05:13
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

The parts list at $2,400 keeps changing. I'm done with this discussion. Sorry for editing to account for the rapidly changing prices on parts, I don't do that mich action work.
------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 04:21
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

The rebuilder is basically selling the parts for wholesale, and he's not even buying good quality parts. With what David said, I would look around for another rebuilder. It might be worth it to you to take the action to David. Ask him what he would charge for a job like that, including everything he is recommending. You will need to do in piano final regulating, but maybe David is willing to give you advice on that. (I hope you're OK with that, David).

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa shanks and flanges, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Wim,
I ain't even shopping, just scanned current Schaff price list. I think the original post was edited and did not include Tokiwa wippens, but Tokiwa shanks and flanges, not wippens. Even if you throw in the wippens, with shanks and flanges, and assuming you put the heavier Imagedawa hammers on you get a total of $1,470.42 

Tokiwa wippens $795.84

Imagedawa hammers $240 or $250

Tokiwa Shanks & Flanges 424.58

The lighter Imagedawas are -10 dollars, the obvious choice for the O is lower.

A lot of work is being suggested for a verdigris problem that is by no means required. Depending on the venue, and whether or not verdigris is a problem beyond the flanges for the hammer shank, I would consider just replacing hammers, shanks, and flanges. How noisy are the wippens? A lot of the other work not only creates more cost in parts but in labor. Beyond key rebushing, there is not necessarily a whole lot more that needs redone if the wear is from simply using the piano. I have no price on that, I cut my own key bushing felt which makes the cost of felt negligible. I would need to see it.

If you replace key end felt, you will not only need to regulate the action, but the dampers, dampers with worn out felt. What a pain. I would never replace key end felt without also repacing damper tray lifter felt and damper felts. If the damper wires are damaged, good luck resetting damper timing.

I know some people will say what I suggest is not a complete rebuild. Well, I never took an old car to a mechanic and asked for a complete rebuild. I just wanted the car to work again.



------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 13:10
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Benjamin said:  What do you mean, "Selling the parts wholesale?" Are you considering just the parts mentioned, -restring, -damper work? How carefully did you read this Dave? Hammers, shanks and flanges? That's it? For $2,400?

Is this a Hawaiian thing, I wouldn't understand?

Benjamin.   He's replacing h/s/f and wippens, plus other parts. Even those off brand parts are going to cost close to that.

In Hawaii I do need to add at least $25 - $50 for shipping. A box of keys sent to the mainland for recovering is $85.


------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 05:13
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

The parts list at $2,400 keeps changing. I'm done with this discussion. Sorry for editing to account for the rapidly changing prices on parts, I don't do that mich action work.
------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 04:21
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

The rebuilder is basically selling the parts for wholesale, and he's not even buying good quality parts. With what David said, I would look around for another rebuilder. It might be worth it to you to take the action to David. Ask him what he would charge for a job like that, including everything he is recommending. You will need to do in piano final regulating, but maybe David is willing to give you advice on that. (I hope you're OK with that, David).

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa shanks and flanges, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Original Message------

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

It's a grand, model O.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 09:07
From: John Gallen
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Steinway does not make parts for these uprights.

If you were to call them, they would refer you to Brooks,Ltd.

Tokiwa is the only company making butts, damper levers, & wippens for Steinway uprights.

Imadegawa used to make the butts, but Tokiwa is making them now.

Regarding hammers, there are other choices: Abel, Renner, & Ronsen are good choices.

There may be others of good quality as well.

Wippens are usually in better condition than the damper levers, damper blocks, & double flanges,

so I am surprised that the other parts are not being replaced.

I am currently replacing original style damper blocks with overdampers(which is not recommended. 

Newer protocol suggests replacing the damper blocks with dowels & 

restyling the dampers without overdampers),

hammers, shanks, butts, damper levers, & wippens for another technician.

For full disclosure, I am the Technical Supervisor at Brooks,Ltd.

& have worked there for over 21yrs.

Original Message------

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Hi John:

I think your language is perhaps a little confusing.  (Can you further explain your substitution?)

I have an older Steinway K and an I in my shop; the originals on both of these had 8 overdampers.  For a long time I have been substituting aftermarket split dampers with wood blocks glued to barrels with much improved damping as a result.  I have found that I never have to add more than one or two overdampers to get sufficient damping, the parts are that good.  Except for the bottom two notes at the tenor break, I usually have 6 to 8 split trichords at that end.  

Are you selling overdampers now?  Last I knew, there was no source for them.  I am using up the last of what I have that I got when Jurgen sold them.  

WNG is making parts that will go on the rails of Steinway uprights.  The geometry is different, and they are NOT a copy of original parts.  Samples that I modeled on one note on the I did not seem like a good fit, and I have shied away from them.  

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 09:07
From: John Gallen
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Steinway does not make parts for these uprights.

If you were to call them, they would refer you to Brooks,Ltd.

Tokiwa is the only company making butts, damper levers, & wippens for Steinway uprights.

Imadegawa used to make the butts, but Tokiwa is making them now.

Regarding hammers, there are other choices: Abel, Renner, & Ronsen are good choices.

There may be others of good quality as well.

Wippens are usually in better condition than the damper levers, damper blocks, & double flanges,

so I am surprised that the other parts are not being replaced.

I am currently replacing original style damper blocks with overdampers(which is not recommended. 

Newer protocol suggests replacing the damper blocks with dowels & 

restyling the dampers without overdampers),

hammers, shanks, butts, damper levers, & wippens for another technician.

For full disclosure, I am the Technical Supervisor at Brooks,Ltd.

& have worked there for over 21yrs.

Original Message------

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Mr. Cole,

As requested,some random thoughts.
Typically when considering this kind of work one can have it done cheap,fast,or well and one must pick which two it will be.

I've found that repetitions cost me about $1000, shanks about $600 and hammers $400-$600 so your sub seems to be selling the parts at cost with about $200- $400  wiggle room for shipping and handling.

Less important than the brand of the parts are their dimensions. Knuckle distance will matter enormously. If your sub just matches what's there on the original, it's very unlikely that they will be able to make the hammers light enough for the action to play well.

If Steinway parts are out of the question,based on cost and personal experience I'd be using Abel Encore shanks and reps before I used Tokiwa. I've nothing against Tokiwa parts I just find they're not as good a fit on a Steinway action from the early 20th century.

Imadegawa hammers require one to be an excellent tone regulator to achieve a good sound. The Ronsen hammers Mr. Love recommends will allow a far less skilled voicer to produce a superior tone.

Whichever direction this goes you will be living with the results along with your friend/client so exercising more caution before the job is in both of your interests.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Scott,

What's your client's end game?  

Are they just looking for it to go "plink"? The vertigris will not even allow a simple "plink". Or are they looking for a specific musical result? I get the sense its a make it go "plink" job, but could be wrong. The end game defines acceptable parameters of the rebuild, and this rebuilder definitely sounds like a make it go "plink" person.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 09:11
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Mr. Cole,

As requested,some random thoughts.
Typically when considering this kind of work one can have it done cheap,fast,or well and one must pick which two it will be.

I've found that repetitions cost me about $1000, shanks about $600 and hammers $400-$600 so your sub seems to be selling the parts at cost with about $200- $400  wiggle room for shipping and handling.

Less important than the brand of the parts are their dimensions. Knuckle distance will matter enormously. If your sub just matches what's there on the original, it's very unlikely that they will be able to make the hammers light enough for the action to play well.

If Steinway parts are out of the question,based on cost and personal experience I'd be using Abel Encore shanks and reps before I used Tokiwa. I've nothing against Tokiwa parts I just find they're not as good a fit on a Steinway action from the early 20th century.

Imadegawa hammers require one to be an excellent tone regulator to achieve a good sound. The Ronsen hammers Mr. Love recommends will allow a far less skilled voicer to produce a superior tone.

Whichever direction this goes you will be living with the results along with your friend/client so exercising more caution before the job is in both of your interests.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Or a "Plinkmeister".  

Will Truitt

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 09:29
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Scott,

What's your client's end game?

Are they just looking for it to go "plink"? The vertigris will not even allow a simple "plink". Or are they looking for a specific musical result? I get the sense its a make it go "plink" job, but could be wrong. The end game defines acceptable parameters of the rebuild, and this rebuilder definitely sounds like a make it go "plink" person.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 09:11
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Mr. Cole,

As requested,some random thoughts.
Typically when considering this kind of work one can have it done cheap,fast,or well and one must pick which two it will be.

I've found that repetitions cost me about $1000, shanks about $600 and hammers $400-$600 so your sub seems to be selling the parts at cost with about $200- $400  wiggle room for shipping and handling.

Less important than the brand of the parts are their dimensions. Knuckle distance will matter enormously. If your sub just matches what's there on the original, it's very unlikely that they will be able to make the hammers light enough for the action to play well.

If Steinway parts are out of the question,based on cost and personal experience I'd be using Abel Encore shanks and reps before I used Tokiwa. I've nothing against Tokiwa parts I just find they're not as good a fit on a Steinway action from the early 20th century.

Imadegawa hammers require one to be an excellent tone regulator to achieve a good sound. The Ronsen hammers Mr. Love recommends will allow a far less skilled voicer to produce a superior tone.

Whichever direction this goes you will be living with the results along with your friend/client so exercising more caution before the job is in both of your interests.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Scott:  I would never put Imadegawa hammers on a Steinway, regardless of what he plans to do with the piano.  If he doesn't want Steinway hammers then go with either Renner or Able hammers.  I am not sure that Tokiwa parts are that much cheaper than Steinway, but maybe I am wrong.  I have never compared the prices.

------------------------------
Clarence Zeches
Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
Toccoa GA
706-886-4035
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

I would add Renner Blue Points to the list of appropriate replacement hammers. 

"Genuine Steinway parts," be they made by Steinway N. Y. or by Renner, are the most expensive of the bunch, but not necessarily the best.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 15:00
From: Clarence Zeches
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Scott:  I would never put Imadegawa hammers on a Steinway, regardless of what he plans to do with the piano.  If he doesn't want Steinway hammers then go with either Renner or Able hammers.  I am not sure that Tokiwa parts are that much cheaper than Steinway, but maybe I am wrong.  I have never compared the prices.

------------------------------
Clarence Zeches
Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
Toccoa GA
706-886-4035

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Original Message------

I would add Renner Blue Points to the list of appropriate replacement hammers. 

"Genuine Steinway parts," be they made by Steinway N. Y. or by Renner, are the most expensive of the bunch, but not necessarily the best.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Can we assume that Tokiwa shanks & flanges are also included, Scott? Whatever the brand, it is usually better to stick with the same brand for both.  Renner, Tokiwa and Abel all make quality parts. I keep samples of as many varieties as possible and see which fits the piano best. If Steinway parts are used, it is worthwhile to remember that they sell parts only for models in current production. They may or may not be a good fit for an older Steinway. My personal hammer choice would be Ronsen Weickert  special felt.

Yours,

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ

------------------------------
Robert Anderson
Tucson AZ
520-326-4048
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

If the hammers are not worn out and the main problem is verdigris. One can replace the hammer flanges with the current NY part, (making sure the flange screws won't bottom out in the rail. If so, you can use a flange washer). Before installing the new flanges you must rinse the felt bushing clean in acetone. Do this out in the open air. Once the old flanges are removed and when the bushings are well wetted by acetone, place a rag between the flange forks and push an uncut center pin of the appropriate size to force the grease out of the felt into the rag.

Do the same job to the whippen flanges but go ahead and reuse them.

I find Ronsen Bacon felt hammers with the silver maple moulding to be as perfect a hammer as there has ever been. To make tone regulation easier, have Ray make the number 55 to 88 hammers about 1mm narrower. Then juice up for tone from about hammer 60 to 88 with 8 to 1 acetone/lacquer.

The big question is: what does the customer expect the result to be? Once that is answered, ask whoever is interested in doing the work to choose what work will meet those goals and guarantee it.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2017 18:30
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Can we assume that Tokiwa shanks & flanges are also included, Scott? Whatever the brand, it is usually better to stick with the same brand for both.  Renner, Tokiwa and Abel all make quality parts. I keep samples of as many varieties as possible and see which fits the piano best. If Steinway parts are used, it is worthwhile to remember that they sell parts only for models in current production. They may or may not be a good fit for an older Steinway. My personal hammer choice would be Ronsen Weickert  special felt.

Yours,

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ

------------------------------
Robert Anderson
Tucson AZ
520-326-4048

Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2017 23:55
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Thoughts on a Steinway action rebuild?

Hi all,

I have a friend/customer with a 1911 Model O Steinway. It has bad verdigris, and he's gotten an estimate for an action rebuild from a local rebuilder (I'm not going to attempt this). No finish work, just action.

The rebuilder has quoted $4900, with $2500 labor, $2400 parts. Tokiwa wippens, Imadegawa hammers.

No damper work. No restring. He has no plans to sell the piano.

His question is whether the Tokiwa parts and Imadegawa hammers are good choices. Are there better hammers for this piano? I'm not sure he has a particular sound in mind. How do the parts compare to Renner, or the hammers to Abel or others? I'm assuming no one will talk him into Steinway parts...

Thanks,

Scott

--

Scott Cole, Registered Piano Technician

Serving Southern Oregon and Northern California

(541)601-9033

rvpianotuner.com

Original Message------

If the hammers are not worn out and the main problem is verdigris. One can replace the hammer flanges with the current NY part, (making sure the flange screws won't bottom out in the rail. If so, you can use a flange washer). Before installing the new flanges you must rinse the felt bushing clean in acetone. Do this out in the open air. Once the old flanges are removed and when the bushings are well wetted by acetone, place a rag between the flange forks and push an uncut center pin of the appropriate size to force the grease out of the felt into the rag.

Do the same job to the whippen flanges but go ahead and reuse them.

I find Ronsen Bacon felt hammers with the silver maple moulding to be as perfect a hammer as there has ever been. To make tone regulation easier, have Ray make the number 55 to 88 hammers about 1mm narrower. Then juice up for tone from about hammer 60 to 88 with 8 to 1 acetone/lacquer.

The big question is: what does the customer expect the result to be? Once that is answered, ask whoever is interested in doing the work to choose what work will meet those goals and guarantee it.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------