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samick center pin plating

  • 1.  samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 05-08-2018 23:12
    I looked at a Samick model SG-185 grand serial number  INIG01Z6 in a home based piano studio. the action needs some basic regulation to more life in the rep springs and get the shanks off the rebound rail however the complaint was the action was heavy to play and slow as well I did not have the tools with me because it was a visit to talk to the teachers. I tried teh tenor and bass and it seemed like lots of slow, heavy action response . perhaps it is just humidity related or the keys need a little easing but then I recalled the issues of flaking center pins on yc and samick as well as others. i can not find a list of models/serial numbers of pianos that may fall into problem center pin issues. I have had the seizure problem show up a number of times usually when tuning the piano , testing it or shortly and having to do a call back and find that new ones seized. this piano was owned by a church and i am not sure how it found its way to the studio. I recall working on a piano exactly like thi one and it was in a church. Until I check the serial numbers against one another I will not know but its possible that pianos resurface again with a new owner. so please if someone can tell me the possible year the piano was made and if it falls in the center pin plating era. i would be very thankful.














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    n

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 23:53
    James, I don't know about serial numbers and years for seizing Samick center pins. I haven't heard that they ever have gotten on top of this problem. I certainly would welcome the news that they have truly fixed this.

    However, to diagnose the flaking center pin seizing I can tell you what I have observed:

    1. Notes play better after the piano has been resting for awhile, and then start to seize worse and worse during playing. This is because the heat generated by the friction of flaking center pins makes the pins swell when the piano is played -- the harder and louder the faster they will seize up.

    2, While a few notes may just be slow, because the plating has barely started to fail, mostly notes either are seized or they are not seized. Unaffected notes seem totally free most of the time.

    3. More notes seize in the most used parts of the scale. That is, the plating failure is wear related.

    4. Any parts can seize, but hammers tend to be the worst.

    5. It seems like sometimes some batches of pins and bushing cloth are okay for some parts, but not for others -- as if certain batches are all right and others (on the same assembly line) are not. So, on some pianos, certain parts will never seize, while other parts will have lots of trouble. If you find that on a piano tons of hammers, some jacks, a few underlevers, but no wippens or rep levers are seized, the wippens and rep levers will probably continure to be fine. Or, substitute other parts -- if the jacks and underlevers are fine, but some wippen flanges are seized, expect more wippen flanges to seize later, but don't waste time repinning jacks and underlevers. On the other hand, I have had to repin every single center in a heavily used Samick grand.

    6. Use a magnifying glass and a bright light to look at the seized center pin. You can usually see scoring around one or both ends, where the flakes tangled in the bushings dragged on the center pin.

    7. Lubrication doesn't do the trick, though it can fool you temporarily into thinking you won't have to repin. Repin properly. I've never known a center which has been repinned with a non-plated center pin to seize up again.

    8. For sluggish notes due to high humidity, using a hair dryer, hot and fast, will free up the notes. But with center pin failure, the hair dryer won't do any good.

    Hope this helps ... ​

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 10-04-2018 10:37
    Hi Susan,
    I want to thank you for your thorough post on Samick centers. I have tried a couple of rounds of Protek with the problem only returning and seemingly getting worse.  I am preparing to repin hammers and jacks. Can you help me estimate labor for each?
    Best
    Fred Brown RPT

    ------------------------------
    Fred Brown
    Saint Augustine FL
    904-687-8353
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-05-2018 02:09
    Ream and repin is my only advice.

    I have never seen a "flaking center pin" though I have worked on many troublesome Samicks and Young Changs.

    Could someone please save and send me some of these?  I would like to do a microscopic photo of the flaking or ?.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-05-2018 21:07
    Hi, Fred

    Sorry, I just now saw your post.

    As for an estimate, it probably depends on your speed at repinning. Don Mannino's broaches help a lot and save a lot of time, of course. Sold by Schaff.

    There are two approaches: fix only the affected centers, or, if tired of nickel and diming a piano which keeps finding new notes to seize, estimate to do all of the type giving the problem. You can't assume that if one type of center is seizing that all the others are also tainted. Sometimes it's just the one type. I did once repin every single center in a much-used Korean grand, however.

    If you are doing only the offending notes, go by an hourly rate. If you are good at pinning, you can decide what your time is worth and go with that. If you are relatively unpracticed at center pinning, it might be best to lower the rate somewhat. Well, it's what I do when I'm brand new at something or feel I'm not up to speed for some reason.

    Sometimes I try to figure out what I should be making and I have to guess how much time it will take. If I'm not sure I sometimes give the customer a fairly generous "shall not exceed" cost, so they have something solid to go by.

    Hope this helps.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 23:53
    James

    The sluggishness is an ongoing problem with Samick pianos. I just inspected a 10 year old K&C studio with sluggish action parts. Even when I took off one of the hammers, the actual pin wasn't tarnished, but I could see a black residue on the bushing cloth. That's all it takes. 

    I've tried Protek and other solutions, and nothing will work. I'm not sure if Samick will change their ways, but this a problem akin to the Steinway verdigris from years back.

    Unfortunately there is nothing you can do short of rebushing and repining, or getting new parts. 


    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2018 23:57
    Hi, Wim

    Glad you are on the safe island.

    I agree, I've seen the black residue some of the time, and the scoring some of the time, and sometimes both.

    However, I've never found any need to rebush. Just ream (Mannino reamers) and repin. I've never had to do any of them twice.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 00:02
    Susan

    Whatever it is that is causing the black residue, and subsequent sluggishness, is in the busing cloth. If you repin, all you're doing is buying another 5 - 10 years before the problem comes back. Yes, reaming and repining is good for a start. But unless you're not going to be around in 5 - 10 years, it's going to come back and bite you in the ass, again.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 01:26
    Hi, Wim

    That hasn't been my experience. I've repinned some of these 20 years ago, and never had one come back after it was repinned.

    Have you repinned without rebushing, and had some go bad again?

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 01:54
    Susan
    Yes, about 5 years ago I repinned a dozen or so damper flanges on a 10 year old K&C grand, and within 2 years they were sluggish again. Had the same thing happen on hammer flanges, and even wippen flanges. Now, maybe a lot of humidity, some of which is salt air, contributed to the problem. All I know is Samick products here in Hawaii are notorious for sluggish actions. Not all of them, but most.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 07:09
    We have a 35 year-old Samick grand that was donated to the school a few years ago. All action centers were fine when we first took possession. Then, as Susan has noted, action centers on the most heavily played notes began seizing up. Lazy as I am, I tried the simplest solution first: Protek. 

    At this point, we have had 39 tight hammer centers, 12 tight jack centers and seven tight wippen flanges. The Protek has worked on all of them, with no repeat customers.

    FWIW.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 07:44
    This is all very interesting.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 09-11-2023 16:30

    2018 - 35 = 1983 YC responds to Protek, eh?  Good to know, as Protek is absolutely not effective on my 1985 Wurlitzer here, which I'm assuming is a YC...?  Anyone out there with a 1984?



    ------------------------------
    Andrew Warden
    Evanston IL
    (224) 420-1773
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2023 18:16
    Update: after many years of Protek seeming to work, we have just now had some action centers on that same piano which were previously treated with Protek become tight all over again, requiring repinning. 

    FYI, y'all!

    Alan 






  • 15.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2023 20:36
    Alan

    I might have answered you the first time you posted this. Repinning is not going to solve this problem in the long term.. The pins become corroded by the bushing cloth. To permanently solve this problem, you would need to rebush the parts, too. 

    This is a major problem with these pianos. Is it worth it to rebush and repin all the parts as opposed to replacing the parts with new ones? Or, can you do a better job rebushing than what new parts will have?  

    Wim





  • 16.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2023 22:01

    Wim and All,

    Since we have detailed documentation about which action centers got repinned and when, I will be able to report back about when the repinning fails, should that be the case.

    Alan 



    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2023 23:30
    Hi Alan

    I had a very similar case in Hawaii, which has a much more humid climate than what you have. I suspect the high humidity probably accelerated the problem. 

    I had a Samick product grand in a church with similar tight centers, mostly damper levers and hammer flanges but also a few jacks.  At first I used Protek to ease the centers. Then I repinned some of the worst offenders, and noticed the corrosion on the pins. That last about 9 - 12 months. That's when i started asking questions on this and other lists. 

    The bottom line was that I replaced first the damper levers. Since the piano was aver 15 hears old, the hammers were worn out, so I replaced all the h/s/f.  Some of this was paid by the dealer. The church paid for the rest. But the wips needed to be replaced, too because of tight jacks

    Shortly thereafter they bought a 7' Kawai which I restrung. The church sold the piano to one of their members who called me 2 years later to tune and complain about keys not working. You guessed it. Tight jacks. I told them the story and the cost of new wips, but declined. I don't know what happened to the piano after that. 







  • 18.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 09-11-2023 23:32

    use chalks in various colors to mark the parts and put an index card taped to the rim with dates of repair, running totals and chalk guide eventually you may find the need to rebush and repin all the centers or replace with new parts neither option is cheap



    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 10:37
    Oh dear me. Trouble in paradise ... Well, it's something to keep in mind. No trouble here.

    I'm going to attempt a research project on rebushing. I can do rebushing, but I'm never satisfied with the results - too little friction, and too little evenness under heavy use later. So, if my ideas work, and if any of my repinned "Asian flu" centers go bad, I'll be all set up to deal with it.

    I suppose I might rebush seizing Samick flanges if I knew that the piano was going somewhere like Hawaii ...

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 05-09-2018 11:35
    i am interested in this research so clue me in . since i am on the coast of south carolina in high humidity much of the time i am a good
    test site. i make use of lots of test instruments for moisture and temp/rh  and install a good share of dampp chasers. however the fact that some internal part is the cause makes diagnosis more difficult. when you tell a client about the center pin seizing issue they flip out think you are trying to rip them off and even tell you it never happened before so you must have done it. i would love to be able to hand a technical bulletin to a client from the piano maker that outlines the issue and options for repair. if these problems originated at the factory in my opinion there should be some relief. the ignition switch on my 2002 saturn vue was defective from the get go and in 2017 it was fixed at no cost to me . i know- flaking center pins are not a safety issue but people spend thousands when they buy a grand piano

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 12:46
    James,

    Are you volunteering to write a technical bulletin on the subject? 😉

    Personally I'd love to read it and have it on hand, although I'm not sure I'd give it out much. Not too many Samicks where I am... mostly Baldwins, Steinways, Kawais, Yamahas, and unheard of off-brands from years gone by....

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 05-09-2018 13:17
    more like a fact sheet however there may be some legal issues with something not official from the company itself . in the early days of widespread issues like the shedding felt on music desks technicians got reimbursed for replacing the bad material . i believe it was the same for the expanding action bracket problem but not so sure there was ever a program for seizing pins

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 19:29
    Samick, or Young Chang, or whatever company (mostly Korean) had the problem used to cover the repinning under warranty. It got harder and harder to get any money out of them. Finally, it was hard even to get someone to return one's calls, even when the piano was still well within warranty.

    If I remember right, there was a time, VERY early in their North American sales period, when even Yamaha and Kawai would sometimes have this problem. Techs called it "Asian flu." The difference between Yamaha - Kawai and Samick is that Yamaha and Kawai FIXED it very quickly.

    What seems universal with this problem is that the center pins are plated. I wish they'd stop doing that, even if the nickel plating makes them easier to install.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 13:31
    James

    As you said, it's not a safety issue. If it were, then the Federal government would tell Samick to recall all their pianos. But Samick is not about to issue a technical bulletin explaining how their products are defective, and the best way to fix it is to get a technician to install all new parts, for free.  And they might not look to kindly on any technician who would write such an article. 

    In short, all we can do is explain to customers why their pianos aren't paying correctly, and hope they trust you to do the right thing. If they don't trust you, they will find another technician, who will then tell them the same thing you told them. Somewhere along the way, you'll be that second technician. In the end, we all win.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 14:04
    Samick did pay if they were still under warranty. Young Chang would pay if they were under warranty. At
    least YC is still supplying brackets even if they don't pay for your time.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 14:49
    I once was buying a 70's Yamaha P2 from a retired piano teacher. I mentioned the spring cords and determined that thus one had the problem. She was thinking I was trying to rip her off by making something up to get the price lower. Unbeknownst to me, her husband was upstairs out of sight but listening. As the negotiations continued, he googled "Yamaha spring cords"...then came down the stairs and announced:  "He's right...spring cords...problem...exactly what he said!"  She realized I was talking straight and she acquiesced.

    Moral:  Just Google it.

    They will see that it is a long standing problem.  Takes the pressure off you.

    Pwg


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 19:33
    Plus, if the problem is so bad that you need to repin all of one part (let alone ALL the different parts), it is time-consuming kind of boring work, which isn't all that well paid at the best of times -- so, if they have to go to someone else to hear the same thing, it's not all that great a tragedy, as tragedies go.

    It does make good television or DVD work.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 05-10-2018 06:03
    wim

      i absolutely agree that explaining to the customer is the best approach. i had a real go around with a customer before on this and suspected seizure issues from the get go. i advised her and fixed the ones that i found and marked them all with blue chaulk. a few days later she called and had more which i fixed and marked with pink chaulk. several days later after she had hosted a fund raiser she said it seized up when a pianist was playing for the event, accused me of ruining the piano and she wanted me to come back and fix it for free. i stood firm and told her i would only fix ones that i had fixed before , that the problem starts rearing its ugly head from the friction/heat caused by playing, the best course would be all new parts or a new piano. never heard from her but i am positive she posted negative comments on angies list

     writing up something- not a good idea

    often we are just the messengers which customers seem to forget

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-05-2018 23:59
    I concur with Susans experience. I have seen the problem return when pro-tec was used. But then again I know of one Boston that had the problem and Pro-tec seems to have solved it. (The problem being centers that start to seize after playing for a while and sometimes return to freedom after resting for awhile.) 

    I don't feel confident about pro-tech to guarantee it. I will guarantee repining. I have never felt the need to rebush the centers. I would rather replace the parts from another source than do that.

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-06-2018 11:06
    I concur with Ed. I've never needed to rebush, just to ream and repin. I've never had the same center go bad again after repinning.

    I believe that the trait of starting out after a rest being free and then seizing up during playing is due to the center pin expanding as the friction heats it up. I don't know any other problem which produces this free-then-seized-after-playing symptom. it seems to be unique to failed center pin plating, since I've also never known this to happen with an unplated center pin. And since any which I repin no longer have a plated center pin -- problem solved -- till the other notes also seize. Hence, if a bunch have needed fixing, talk to the owner about replacing the center pins for all of that type of action part.

    I mark with pencil any which I repin, giving the date. That way if I end up doing all of them, I won't repin any twice. Also, it ends the arguments over "you just fixed that one! and it's seizing up again!" when it was a different one you fixed.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 10-06-2018 12:03
    Susan...other instances would be Isaac Sadigursky's reverse pinning. The bushing is tight to the pin, and the pin is rotating in the birds-eye. Pin heats up and seizes in the birds-eye.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-07-2018 13:27
    Interesting. I never came across that one, with heat seizing the birdseye. I have found some where the pins walked to the side because the birdseye was loose.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-07-2018 17:41
    I just repinned a reverse pinned action. Loose in the birdseye. Like the other I did years ago not a cheap piano, but the cheapest of the cheap.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 10-07-2018 22:12
    I have seen a Young Chang made Wurlitzer grand piano with looser birdseyes and tighter bushings. The problem showed up in very dry weather, in the dead of winter. It was a frustrating problem to diagnose.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2018 02:29
    One story I heard was that the Koreans used a manufacturing process for flanges that involves assembling the flange with pre-glued felt, then using microwaves to heat the glue and form a bond.  Unfortunately, the glue can migrate into the inner area of the flange bushing and contaminate the flange pin. 

    I have definitely seen flange pins on Korean pianos with glue adhered to the flange pin.  A lubricant will free this up but only temporarily and the glue eventually re-bonds the flange to the bushing cloth.  Reaming the bushing removes some or most of the contaminating glue and mostly solves the problem.

    This would explain why the flange tends to become worse over time as the friction of use warms the glue and bonds it to the bushing.  Unfortunately, some of the glue might remain to re-contaminate the flange later.

    I am still looking for flaking plating pins.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-10-2018 03:41
    What I have seen when I remove the most badly seizing center pins and inspect under a magnifying glass is score marks all the way around the center pin on the portion which contacts the cloth. Blaine's description of the gluing process is interesting. It's possible that the glue which might seep through the cloth when it is melted in the microwave might stick to the plating, bits of which would then end up incorporated in the surface of the cloth. They could then score the brass of the pin. This could explain why the problem only happens with plated center pins.

    Can anyone tell me if nickel is harder than brass? The outside of the pin where it is not damaged looks like nickel, and the scored part looks yellow like brass.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 10-11-2018 16:47
    I have an annual service tomorrow morning on a Samick Grand, with a short fuse on how long I can stay on site. I have the Mannino ream set and various size pins and if there are beginnings of sluggish hammer flanges, I would like to correct on site as time permits during the course of a tuning. On reaming and repinning, anyone know the size pins I should have on hand? Ream and repin half-size larger, or same size?

    Sent from my iPad




  • 38.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2018 19:37
    Good luck with your job.

    I've found that notes either seize or don't seize. That is, it's hard to find ones which are ALMOST ready to seize. They may seize a little bit or they may hang stationary in air, but they seem to be quite free when (for instance) grand shanks are lifted and dropped, until they act up, when they are a lot stiffer almost at once. It would be awfully handy to be able to tell which ones might go bad later on, but I've never been able to, except that the notes most played have the most trouble.

    The most annoying are the underlevers, because they are the most fuss to remove.

    As for pin size, I have always used the regular protocol: find the smallest one which I can't push into the birdseye with my bare hand, and then ream the bushings till it gives me the right friction (also told by the feeling as I push them into the bushing.) Most of the pianos with seized center pins don't have all that much wear, so either the same size or a half size larger is usually enough. So, I'd have plenty of 20.5's and a lot of 21's. Most of the time I've used 21's the most. I believe that the highest I've had to go is 21.5, and that is rare.

    When repinning worn actions which don't have the failing plated center pins, it's common to find that you need a bigger pin to get enough friction in the bushings than you need to be firm in the birdseye. If I need a much larger pin, I am afraid of splitting the birdseye, especially if the wood is old and brittle. In that situation, if I really did want to save the old parts, I'd rebush rather than go higher and higher in center pin sizes. In my little center pin container, I removed all sizes above 22.5, marked a line on the case, and filled all the emptied holes with size 21's.


    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 10-12-2018 05:57
    Thanks for the info Susan as I was hoping to hear back from you. My appointment may have to be rescheduled for another day as I woke up to downed trees, road closures and massive power outages due to hurricane Mathews passing through Williamsburg last night. However, from what you tell me explains why I may have lost several customers over the years due to seizures on Samick grands that were hard to diagnose at the time I was there. I will be letting the Samick owners I still have on my customer list know to please make note of any keys not responding to repetivive playing and I can repin those as well as mark them when I have repinned as you suggest to prevent redundancy.

    BTW Nickel is harder than brass and holds up much better and longer over brass. Brass corrodes and does not hold up as well espesically in humid condiitions. I spent my early years in the Coast Guard as a Quartermaster on the bridge and keeping the brightwork, and ship’s clocks in order required constant attention to prevent pitting.

    Sent from my iPad




  • 40.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 11:50
    Thanks, Kevin. I'm sorry to hear about the storm damage in your region. It sounds like you and your home are all right, though?

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 41.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 10-12-2018 12:27
    Regarding action centers on Samicks/Young Changs.  Get some colored chalk and mark all of the ones giving you problems on your visit with the same color chalk. You could have problems with all of the pins but the hammer flange is usually the easiest to address and fix. Always go up 1/2 size bigger but you do not want to crack the birdseye wood . Get a supply of center pins from Wessell Nickel and Gross since they are german silver and not plated. I have pictures someplace of flaking pin plating and contaminated bushing cloth. I deal would be new cloth and new pins but the time to do that adds up. If you get a callback the colored chalk will help sort out if its a newly frozen note . If you repin a whippen mark it with chalk as well. Instead of guessing its best to do all thee pins...

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 42.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2018 15:17
    Yeah, once a wippen is out in my hand I tend to do all three pins. And if I have an underlever out in my hand I definitely do both pins.

    I find a sharp pencil putting down the date is better than the chalk. Gives more data, especially if you have repeated visits.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 43.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 10-10-2018 08:27
    Blaine,
    You don’t really want to find flaking pins. This problem locks up movement like you’ve never seen before.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 44.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Member
    Posted 10-11-2018 12:05
    Electroless nickel plating offers another metal plating alternative to increasing hardness for your project. The process occurs through metal ion exchange using chemical reduction in a hot aqueous solution. One of the greatest advantages to electroless nickel plating comes in its uniformity. The coating doesn't build up on corners or projects and the application results in an even all over thickness, regardless of the shape. Electroless nickel plating provides exceptional hardness, as well as wear and corrosion resistance. These deposits can also be heat treated to increase hardness. 

    Chrome is the hardest.


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    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
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  • 45.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 10-11-2018 14:05
    I just finished re pinning all 68 Samick underlever center pins on the flanges. This was a revelation in what happens to the pins given the nickle plating being chaffed away. I want to thank Loren Kelly (RPT) of Tacoma (Puget Sound Chapter) for helping me understand what pit-falls to avoid. This can be a very time consuming operation. With all the proper tools you can concentrate on just the right touch needed for burnishing and removing the metal fragments. I wish I had tried to do some macro shots of the bushing hole to show how they had accumulated metal flakes.
    All in all, the re pinning was uneventful. I have included some macro photos of the worn/chaffed flange center pins.

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    Mark Holt
    KeysInTune.com
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  • 46.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2023 01:21

    I have some words of warning to add. Many of you probably know this but there may be some that don't. Also I have not read the entire thread so this may have been covered already. If we encounter a Samick, Kohler Cambell, or Young Chang (or others) the exhibit random seized hammers or jacks that are sluggish Protek will likely work in the short term. Just treated two jacks the other day. Repinning will work in the longer term but I wish we could still get brass center pins. Anybody know where?

    However, more importantly, if you pull one of these actions the deal with a sluggish hammer do NOT lift the other hammers out of their normal range of movement or there is a high likelyhood that they will also seize up. Likely before you finish the tuning. I was dealing with one of these that had a few rep springs that absolutely needed relaxing and made the mistake of lifting that hammer to adjust the rep spring and the hammer flanges started seizing up almost immediately.

    I have also heard that that traditional Alcohol and Water treatment will not work. Yes, the centers will seize up but they will also likely stay that way even after drying out. Has anyone else experienced this?



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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  • 47.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2023 17:21

    As Tremane noted, this is a long thread. My thoughts/recollections: I believe Don Mannino developed his expertise at dealing with sluggish flanges when he was their service manager decades ago. His approach, of course, is repinning with his famous broaches. Wm's claim that reaming & repinning won't work is perhaps appropriate for Hawaii and other extreme humidity/salt air environments, but many of us reside in less extreme situations.



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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 48.  RE: samick center pin plating

    Posted 09-13-2023 08:33

    I have found the product Fantastic works in this situation too. A few drops on the bushing cloth will seize up the flange movement until the Fantastic dries out. The drying out usually happens within 24 hours. After that, the parts will swing freely. Maybe more freely then you like, but the action is playable.

    I also noticed that with this method some action noise is introduced. I chased that for some considerable time on several visits to no avail. Short of replacing felt, I needled on several of the worst noisy notes all felt bumpers, i.e. back rail cloth, wippen cushion.... No change.

    I had the thought that perhaps the hollow aluminum action rails might be accentuating the noise. I'm hesitant to blast expanding foam in there though. :)



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    Douglas Mahard
    Bethlehem CT
    (203) 266-6688
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